SoberNotMature - Episode 216 (Heather - Wandering Weightlessly in the 216)

 00:00:01.82
Bill
All right, everyone. Welcome once again to another episode of Sober, Not Mature. And first of all, hello, Heather. We we do have a guest. Our friend Heather is going to be on with us tonight.

00:00:12.79
Heather
Hello.

00:00:13.02
Bill
So say hi, Heather.

00:00:14.23
Heather
Hello, Heather.

00:00:15.19
Bill
I figured you were going to do that. yeah feel George Burns and Gracie.

00:00:18.87
Heather
That was pretty lame. That was pretty lame. 216 the 216.

00:00:21.11
Bill
No, it wasn't. Mike's done that before. Mike's done it before, too. It works. at all It all works.

00:00:24.28
Mike
Great.

00:00:25.31
Bill
So two things before we actually get into stuff. First of all, did did either one of you notice what episode number this is?

00:00:31.90
Heather
two sixteen in the two one six

00:00:34.07
Bill
Yeah, so how how crazy is is that, right, Mike?

00:00:34.26
Mike
yeah Oh. feel Glad somebody's paying attention.

00:00:37.79
Bill
So, yeah, Mike just clicks on it.

00:00:39.41
Mike
Nah,

00:00:40.90
Heather
No

00:00:41.90
Bill
He no fucking idea what the episode number is.

00:00:43.25
Mike
nah I don't pay attention.

00:00:44.14
Heather
way.

00:00:44.17
Mike
Whatever.

00:00:44.82
Bill
Well, we had we had episode, we talked about episode murder, you know, some time ago, which is 187.

00:00:44.93
Mike
Whatever.

00:00:46.02
Heather
That's right.

00:00:49.98
Bill
And now we've got, ah yeah, we had a we had episode we had episode murder.

00:00:50.97
Heather
away ha

00:00:54.03
Bill
And now we've got episode that we're representing the, this is episode Klee.

00:00:58.30
Mike
Right.

00:00:58.33
Bill
Yeah.

00:00:58.50
Heather
that's right

00:00:59.90
Bill
But dumbm also, so if if anyone else is is listening that hasn't voted for us yet, and Heather, you brought it up. So, I mean, everyone knows. Everyone's probably getting sick and tired of us. Don't worry, everyone.

00:01:08.76
Mike
e

00:01:09.42
Bill
One more day. And it said youre if you're listening to this on Saturday, April 11th, and you haven't voted yet, please do. i don't It says it goes through the 11th. I don't know how late.

00:01:20.02
Bill
But go on the Sands Bar website. It's thesandsbar.com. Click on the on the nominees part. Vote for us, please. going to beg just a little bit. this is Who knows?

00:01:30.62
Bill
I mean, we've done we've done a lot of promoting and everything like that. And either we end up, from what we understand, we may find out relatively soon if we won. We may not. Who knows? But um i don't know.

00:01:42.18
Bill
every Every little bit helps.

00:01:43.10
Mike
More will be revealed.

00:01:43.30
Bill
Right, Mike? Yeah. that's That's what I heard. And hey, if you if you got friends and they haven't voted yet, tell them to fucking vote too.

00:01:48.12
Heather
friends they suck

00:01:51.35
Bill
So, you know, let's let's get this last little push in there.

00:01:51.56
Mike
Right.

00:01:54.03
Bill
But enough about us.

00:01:55.26
Heather
this we have our friend eher

00:01:55.67
Bill
We have our friend Heather from Cleveland. So once again, Heather, how are you tonight?

00:01:59.96
Heather
i am I'm okay. I'm a little nervous. I'm a little nervous. I'm not going lie.

00:02:03.32
Mike
there

00:02:03.82
Heather
And that's weird because public speaking is not a fear of mine. It's kind of my jam. I'm usually fine with it, but I'm a little nervous to be chatting with you guys tonight. yeah

00:02:13.88
Mike
Come on, it's just us.

00:02:14.01
Bill
Well, you know, we're yeah we're we're kind of a big deal, I know. But, I mean, it's... ah

00:02:19.84
Heather
Well, you are. I mean, so J.

00:02:21.33
Bill
listens Listen to Mike...

00:02:21.33
Heather
Michael is like the coolest guy i have ever met. Like I have literally the coolest guy I've ever met. And then, you know, you, Bill, you are literally living my digital nomad dreams, like been there, done that, literally wrote the book about it.

00:02:37.02
Heather
And I'm just I'm a little, you know, little in awe. So, yeah.

00:02:42.78
Bill
Well, you know what? The thing with it number one, if you want to be nervous, that's fine. It's your it's your choice. We're not going to tell you how to how to live your live your life. But I guarantee you within about 10 or 15 minutes, you're going forget that you're talking into a microphone, you know, and that, you know, a certain number of people might listen to this, whatever the case is.

00:02:50.19
Mike
Right.

00:02:59.00
Bill
We're going talk about your story. We're going to talk about your business you got going on. We're going talk about, you know, all the things that that you've had happen in your in your wonderful world of sobriety. So, again, it's it just like we were talking about to begin with.

00:03:09.69
Bill
just ah It's just conversation, right, Mike?

00:03:11.74
Mike
h

00:03:12.85
Bill
But remind Heather, though, because we are going to talk about your story.

00:03:14.39
Mike
if

00:03:15.64
Bill
But I think, Heather, you probably know this, you know, this this thing that Mike's going to say.

00:03:16.12
Mike
right

00:03:19.24
Bill
But Mike, reminder how how we deal with stories here.

00:03:21.59
Heather
but

00:03:22.10
Mike
All right. Well, Heather, um we hate drunkologues, right? We know how to get fucked up.

00:03:25.87
Heather
Yeah.

00:03:27.14
Mike
We know how to fuck up our lives, fuck up the lives of everybody around us. We know how to do that. I know I'm personally quite good at it. um I don't need to know about that.

00:03:34.74
Bill
ah

00:03:37.58
Mike
um Yeah, we just, you know... Again, drunk logs suck. We want to know about the solution. So, you know, yes, we want to hear your story. You know, I don't think I've, I can't remember. It's, we've known each other a long time.

00:03:49.49
Mike
I don't know if I've ever heard your lead or not.

00:03:50.03
Bill
right

00:03:51.29
Mike
i know you've heard mine because I bled for you. um But yeah, you know, so, I mean, you know, want to hear the story, you know, a little qualifications, always good. That's cool. But you know, we, yeah, we did the blow by blow of how you got loaded.

00:04:05.06
Mike
We, yeah, we don't need that. And you know what?

00:04:07.32
Bill
ah

00:04:07.82
Mike
And I don't expect you to tell that anyway because you're a Cleveland sober person and we don't do that shit here.

00:04:16.70
Heather
Yeah. Yeah.

00:04:17.56
Mike
Yeah.

00:04:18.90
Bill
hey So that that's your cue, Heather. You can go ahead and tell us tell us all about you and where you came from.

00:04:25.43
Mike
So who the hell are you?

00:04:26.00
Bill
Yeah. yeah

00:04:27.00
Heather
Who the hell am It's a great question.

00:04:29.72
Mike
Right. Right.

00:04:30.30
Heather
yeah um Well, so i guess I will start at the beginning and keep it you know as condensed as possible. So my childhood, um it was pretty idyllic. I... um You know, I grew up in a loving and safe home.

00:04:47.32
Heather
um My parents are still together. So that's like, what, 50, 50 some years of marriage now.

00:04:52.63
Mike
yeah

00:04:52.96
Heather
So, you know, I was loved.

00:04:53.40
Bill
Nice.

00:04:55.26
Heather
I was safe. um You know, and I mentioned that because it's just, you know, a testament to how cunning, baffling and powerful this disease because, you know,

00:05:06.20
Heather
Alcohol is but a symptom. You know, we got to get down to causes and conditions. And I didn't have a whole lot of causes. I just had, you know, the condition of the spiritual malady. Even, you know, from a young age long before I ever picked up, I was restless, irritable and discontent.

00:05:23.20
Mike
Mm

00:05:24.31
Heather
I wanted to be somewhere else doing something else with someone else always. And, um you know, I'm going to I'm going to date myself a little bit here. But once upon a time, we did not have access to constant content.

00:05:36.89
Bill
ah

00:05:36.96
Mike
hmm.

00:05:37.24
Heather
So you couldn't just, you know, watch something to escape. You know, you actually had to if you wanted to either watch what was on network TV, if you can even remember that far back or go to a library.

00:05:46.75
Mike
Oh, yeah.

00:05:48.42
Heather
So.

00:05:48.82
Mike
Right.

00:05:50.23
Heather
You know, when I was a kid, I was constantly escaping into books, you know, so way before any substances were picked up, I was always looking for any way I could to not be where I was.

00:06:02.98
Heather
And that's, you know, even with, you know, a loving two parent household.

00:06:03.39
Mike
Mm-hmm. is

00:06:08.89
Heather
You know, um early on, there wasn't a whole lot of consequences. Like I said, the life life was good. Life was good. um Nothing really phenomenal about that first that first drink.

00:06:22.23
Heather
My parents decided that we were going to move from Menor to Parma, which is about, a what, 45 minutes, which, you know, in middle school, high school, that's, you know, might as well be across the country.

00:06:36.46
Heather
And that was...

00:06:36.97
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:06:38.42
Heather
The first instance of, you know, kind of conflict that was in my easy breezy life where I went from, you know, getting good grades, hanging out with good kids and always trying to do the right thing to wanting to rebel.

00:06:52.48
Heather
You know, as soon as, as soon as we moved to Parma, I promptly changed everyone I was hanging out with, started running with the gangbanger drug dealer from Cleveland and, you know, started, started drinking.

00:07:02.58
Bill
but

00:07:04.86
Heather
So, yeah.

00:07:06.36
Bill
Hey, real real quick, and I don't mean to interrupt you.

00:07:07.74
Heather
yeah

00:07:08.44
Bill
Well, I do.

00:07:08.95
Heather
Yeah.

00:07:09.00
Bill
But um it sounds like something is scratching against your microphone.

00:07:09.68
Mike
Yep.

00:07:11.88
Bill
Is something scratching in general? Or it's just like every once while we hear a scratch on there. Do you hear, Mike?

00:07:16.70
Mike
Mm-hmm. Oh yeah.

00:07:18.65
Heather
It might be that I'm moving around too much.

00:07:20.81
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:07:20.95
Heather
but

00:07:21.02
Bill
Yeah, and just, you know, you you can you can move around, but if you have what if you're wearing sandpaper, just don't scratch your sandpaper together. That's all. Don't worry. We we had our sister on here, and she's she was eating literally eating fucking caramel corn out of a plastic a plastic bag, and finally i'm like I'm like, what the fuck is that sound?

00:07:34.53
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:07:34.88
Heather
Yeah, cool.

00:07:38.52
Mike
he

00:07:39.96
Bill
And she's like, she's like you can hear that? I'm like, you're crinkling a plastic bag and eating something. She's got a mouthful of fucking carbacord in a plastic bag. I'm like, yeah, we can hear it.

00:07:48.18
Heather
ah

00:07:48.62
Bill
We can hear it. So anyhow, yeah just just yeah, we're just hearing the scratching. The only reason i bring it up is that little things like that will take away from your story. we don't want We don't want to take away from your story. That's all. So be mindful.

00:07:58.84
Heather
yeah cool

00:07:59.98
Bill
That's all.

00:08:00.63
Mike
So, right. So you're in the hardcore streets of Parma, Ohio.

00:08:03.03
Bill
Yeah, i was I was born there, too, the mean streets of Parma.

00:08:03.93
Heather
Yes, yes. Yes. Running around Cleveland and and, you know, jump to just hanging out with a different crowd doing different things.

00:08:15.22
Heather
um And it it it was all fun. it was all fun and games. I didn't really have a whole lot of consequences, everything. You know, it was just it was fun. And, you know, other than that, it was yet another just looking for looking for something, anything to make me not feel the way I was feeling, which, you know, again, wasn't wasn't even bad.

00:08:39.91
Heather
You know, I dated a ah string of bad choices, you know, cataclysmically bad choices.

00:08:40.58
Mike
Hmm.

00:08:48.95
Heather
um which eventually led me to deciding that I needed to get out. I needed to get out of Cleveland because Cleveland was the problem.

00:08:56.94
Bill
Right.

00:08:57.21
Mike
Sure.

00:08:58.10
Heather
Yep. So I made my first geographical cure um and moved on down to Florida. I had found out that after my grandparents passed that my parents were just keeping the house empty, sitting there with all the utilities on and ka in case they needed to go down.

00:09:12.15
Mike
Huh?

00:09:12.92
Bill
but

00:09:14.06
Heather
and I was like, well, i i I volunteer. I will go and take care of that for you.

00:09:17.11
Mike
Sure.

00:09:18.94
Heather
So so they were they were all for it. and and i went and You know, my mid twenties was basically like a four year Disney vacation.

00:09:30.08
Heather
I worked on Disney property. I only had to work a couple hours, you know, between 10 and 20 hours a week.

00:09:32.12
Mike
Yeah.

00:09:32.41
Bill
Kivolowitz- Really. Perry Kivolowitz-

00:09:37.62
Heather
And that is that period of my life is what I would chase until I was 40 because it was, you know, sunshine, beaches, margaritas, no consequences,

00:09:52.09
Heather
It was amazing. It was amazing. it was like ah like a four-year Disney vacation.

00:09:54.18
Mike
Yeah, right.

00:09:56.05
Bill
I was just going to say, fucking sign me up for that.

00:09:58.55
Heather
Yes!

00:09:58.62
Mike
yeah right

00:09:58.73
Bill
just it' take Take the goddamn margaritas out of there. I'll sign up for that today.

00:10:02.94
Mike
right

00:10:04.73
Heather
Yeah, it it was amazing. It was amazing. And I would I would chase it, chase it to the brink. And then it was like, you know, I woke up one day and, you know, I was I was turning 30 and all my friends were gone. they' had moved back home. They'd settled down like I was suddenly the only one standing in the middle of a house that I had trashed.

00:10:24.89
Heather
So. You know, the party kind of continued alone until I broke my ankle in a blackout. I had tried to do some beep-bopping back and forth between Florida and Ohio a couple of times.

00:10:39.74
Heather
And, you know, guys guess what? No matter where went, there I was. You know, the problem problem went with me.

00:10:44.84
Bill
Mm-hmm.

00:10:47.96
Heather
um So yeah, my my time in Flora ended ah with me breaking my ankle in a blackout. I still to this day have no idea ah how it happened.

00:10:57.99
Heather
I came to and tried to get out of bed and collapsed onto the floor.

00:10:58.72
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:11:02.58
Heather
And um you know I still had alcohol in the house. So I literally crawled around for the entire weekend on on my hands and knees, um Learned that the liquor store, because again, this was before delivery services and whatnot, but I learned that the pizza place up at the corner would deliver beer and alcohol if you ordered a pizza.

00:11:21.63
Mike
Nice.

00:11:22.58
Heather
Yeah. So I was, i was ordering pizza and booze and literally opening the door from the floor to to take the the pizza and the booze and continued, you know, through the weekend until it was time to show for work on that, that Monday. And ah that wasn't going to happen.

00:11:41.56
Heather
So I crawled out of my house, heaved myself in the car and took myself to the hospital. And that that kind is when the the Florida chapter closed permanently.

00:11:51.52
Mike
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

00:11:54.09
Heather
moved back to Ohio and, you know, things things didn't get a whole lot better here. i continued to um to drink. Not really any big, big legal consequences or anything, just a lot of destruction.

00:12:10.52
Heather
um You know, like you said, we don't need a whole big drunk-a-log. It was bad. Like, I mean, there was a time I turned my car onto railroad tracks and bottomed out.

00:12:16.22
Mike
really

00:12:21.74
Mike
Mmm.

00:12:22.30
Heather
And, you know, luckily some people happen to be there to help me get it off.

00:12:22.38
Bill
Ha ha.

00:12:25.90
Heather
I have lost my car while driving from Ohio to Florida. Like I don't even, I showed up at my house with no idea where my car was after a cross country move.

00:12:35.37
Mike
Mmm.

00:12:36.51
Heather
Like I just ended up at home with my dog. No idea how we got there or where my car was.

00:12:42.87
Mike
Nice.

00:12:43.48
Heather
It's just, yeah. So, you know, things, things were not going great. And then, uh, let's see. think it was around Christmas Eve of 2011, I showed up on my parents' door for I don't even know how, you know, what number time this was, and basically told them that I didn't think I'd be alive to see New Year's, and I wanted to come and stay with them.

00:13:05.23
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:13:07.51
Heather
And they took me in again, and and this time I stayed dry. I stayed dry and that's that's about it. I'd already had my introduction to 12-step programs and you know I went to meetings and I did the absolute bare minimum and shockingly, I got you know the ba i got bare minimum results.

00:13:30.78
Bill
ah

00:13:30.89
Mike
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

00:13:33.05
Heather
i I was really unhappy. like i didn't I didn't want to be sober. i i just wanted to successfully drink.

00:13:40.31
Mike
Right.

00:13:40.63
Bill
Right.

00:13:42.04
Heather
you know I remember someone telling me early on that this this program isn't, if it's not for those who want it, it's for those that are willing to do the work. And i I knew that wasn't me.

00:13:51.51
Bill
Right.

00:13:53.34
Heather
Like I knew it.

00:13:53.63
Mike
Right.

00:13:54.20
Heather
i didn I didn't even want to be sober.

00:13:54.39
Mike
Right.

00:13:55.76
Heather
Like I just wanted to successfully drink. And i I couldn't figure out, like I kept looking back to that time in my life in Florida, like, damn, there was a time that I got up and went to work. Like how, how is this not happening?

00:14:08.42
Heather
How am i having these same things happen over and over again? um you know And then this is this is where the solution starts to come into play.

00:14:18.73
Heather
Because at about seven or eight months dry, i had made a comment at a meeting that I just didn't think I wanted to do this anymore. Like I just wanted to drink all the time.

00:14:29.14
Heather
I wasn't getting what everyone else was getting.

00:14:29.57
Bill
Yeah.

00:14:31.38
Heather
I mean, shocker, I wasn't wasn't doing what everyone else was doing.

00:14:31.87
Mike
Mm hmm.

00:14:34.74
Mike
Right.

00:14:35.02
Heather
So surprise, I wasn't getting what they were getting. and ah And somebody suggested that maybe I should give the girls at the Jean Marie house some rides.

00:14:47.06
Heather
And I didn't really understand what that had to do with anything.

00:14:47.16
Mike
hmm.

00:14:49.69
Mike
Right.

00:14:50.68
Heather
ah i didn't know how that was going to fix my problem or make me not want to drink. But I was just desperate enough to say, OK, fine.

00:14:55.53
Mike
huh.

00:15:00.34
Heather
And I started showing up at the Jean Marie house to give girls rides to meetings.

00:15:06.30
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:15:06.52
Heather
And i realized when I did that, that I didn't want to be crabby, miserable, sobriety sucks, run, run now.

00:15:16.59
Mike
All

00:15:16.70
Heather
You know, I didn't want to be that person. I couldn't be that in front of these girls that were here trying to save their lives. So...

00:15:22.88
Bill
Right.

00:15:22.93
Mike
right.

00:15:24.06
Heather
I just put on this big fake like, oh my gosh, you guys are going to love this meeting.

00:15:26.52
Mike
and since she

00:15:28.14
Heather
It's so much fun. I can't. Oh my God, this chick is amazing. And wait till you hear this and but blah blah blah, blah, blah, blah. Like I put on this big fake persona when I picked these girls up.

00:15:37.11
Mike
Right. Mm-hmm.

00:15:39.32
Heather
And then someone said, well, maybe you should start doing a group at the Jean Marie house. And so I was like, okay, yeah, sure.

00:15:43.90
Mike
exactly

00:15:46.24
Heather
Again, don't know what this is gonna do for me, but sure, why not?

00:15:46.62
Bill
yeah

00:15:49.82
Heather
And there too, i had to I felt that I needed to pretend to be this super awesome representation of recovery. And more and more of my time was being spent around these newly sober people.

00:16:04.43
Heather
And more and more of my time was spent pretending to be to be this happy camper.

00:16:08.67
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:16:11.32
Mike
Right?

00:16:12.41
Heather
And before I knew it, you know, fake it till you make it is a real thing because I just realized I liked her a lot better.

00:16:15.46
Mike
Yep. Mm-hmm.

00:16:19.49
Heather
it was just it was more fun being that person than it was being crabby and miserable.

00:16:19.67
Mike
Right.

00:16:20.24
Bill
Great.

00:16:26.04
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:16:27.26
Heather
And that was just enough for me to to stick around long enough to know that, okay, there there is something here. You know, I still wasn't willing to get a sponsor, do steps or any of that stuff.

00:16:35.86
Mike
Right.

00:16:40.15
Heather
But I did stick around long enough to know that there's there was something here.

00:16:45.75
Mike
o

00:16:45.91
Heather
I also, in that time, had managed to clean up a lot of the wreckage of my past. I had a big old Siberian Husky and I needed a place to live that would take dogs and a dog that size.

00:16:59.22
Mike
All right.

00:16:59.34
Bill
Right.

00:16:59.86
Heather
And I didn't want a roommate. And someone had suggested that I try buying a house.

00:17:04.37
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:17:04.98
Heather
And I kind of on a whim thought, okay, let's give that a try, not thinking that it would actually happen.

00:17:09.09
Bill
Right. her

00:17:11.63
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:17:12.60
Heather
And yeah, so I vividly remember watching my dad, my brother moving my furniture into this house that I just bought all on my own. and And knowing like this is not going to end well.

00:17:26.42
Mike
ah

00:17:26.55
Heather
This is not going to end well. This is all me. I i did this. i just I just bought a house.

00:17:34.07
Mike
Right.

00:17:34.14
Heather
And my first night in the house, I decided to celebrate with a bottle of champagne.

00:17:40.19
Bill
Mm-hmm.

00:17:40.36
Mike
Hmm.

00:17:41.18
Heather
Because nobody would know.

00:17:43.06
Mike
Sure.

00:17:43.54
Heather
And it was just a bottle of champagne. And that night it was. It was just a bottle of champagne. However, you know, nobody knew. i still showed up and and did my group.

00:17:52.70
Mike
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

00:17:55.19
Heather
I had started a Sunday meeting at the Jean Marie house. I still showed up and and and did that. And nobody knew. However, within two weeks, I was already, you know, i i would i had totaled my car on the side of the freeway.

00:18:11.38
Heather
And I was in the hospital and the phone rang and it was our friend Megan um who, who somebody, somebody from Jean Marie at this time I had, i was trying to run a business and I had business magnets on the side of my car and somebody from the Jean Marie house had seen my car on the side of the freeway totaled.

00:18:30.90
Mike
Uh-huh.

00:18:32.02
Bill
ha

00:18:32.74
Mike
Yeah.

00:18:32.89
Heather
So they had been calling around to hospitals and the jig was up, you know, like now, okay, that's it. They know. and That's it.

00:18:41.55
Mike
Yeah.

00:18:42.87
Heather
So, um

00:18:43.77
Mike
Yeah, you can't get away with shit around here.

00:18:46.45
Mike
Right.

00:18:46.78
Bill
Yeah.

00:18:47.37
Heather
no, you really can't. You really can't.

00:18:49.05
Mike
It's one of the things I like about it.

00:18:49.18
Bill
Well,

00:18:50.59
Mike
It's why I'm still here.

00:18:52.31
Bill
yeah we, we've talked about that a number of times that when, you know, obviously, especially when we first got sober and I used to get, we used to roll our cigarettes and there was a, right down the road from the Keating center on 117th, there was a, like the place where you could get the cheapest tobacco and the papers or whatever they were.

00:18:52.28
Heather
Yes.

00:19:10.36
Bill
It was actually a liquor store. Do you remember that Mike?

00:19:12.41
Mike
it wasn't um was that No, that she it was a tobacco store.

00:19:17.24
Bill
Oh, you know, but I, okay. I know what it was.

00:19:18.74
Heather
Uh-huh. Uh-huh.

00:19:19.44
Bill
out It said on there, it said something like tobacco and liquor.

00:19:20.66
Heather
Uh-huh.

00:19:22.56
Bill
So it had the word, it had alcohol on the receipt. The only reason I know that is because at that point, Kathy still had access to my bank account. And as soon as I saw the first receipt, I'm like, oh, fuck, you know,

00:19:32.12
Mike
a

00:19:33.27
Bill
So I this is Kathy's our our sister, Heather, just so you know.

00:19:36.06
Heather
hu

00:19:36.35
Bill
But um so I ended up I remember calling her and telling her, I said, just so you know, I said, that's where I just I'm just buying tobacco there. I said, I'll show you the receipt. She's like, I i never even look at your bank account. I'm like, yeah, but you could have.

00:19:46.24
Mike
Right.

00:19:47.67
Bill
And I said, if you did, you would have seen it.

00:19:47.80
Mike
Yeah.

00:19:49.51
Bill
So, yeah, you're right. It was a tobacco store, but it was something it said like John's Tobacco. It had the word liquor or alcohol. It had some sort of thing on there.

00:19:56.34
Heather
ah

00:19:56.73
Mike
ae

00:19:57.31
Heather
Oh, yeah.

00:19:57.78
Bill
Because i'm I'm like, that's going to show up on my bank account. But anyhow, that literally, it's like you'd walk into any place you'd walk into around Cleveland.

00:20:00.06
Mike
right

00:20:04.39
Bill
It didn't matter where the fuck you went. I mean, people, were we were everywhere.

00:20:08.66
Mike
see

00:20:08.82
Bill
Fucking everywhere.

00:20:08.85
Heather
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that was pretty crazy.

00:20:13.62
Mike
yeah

00:20:13.88
Bill
yeah so Yeah, so you had business stickers on your car, and then clearly they they they found me. I don't know how.

00:20:19.42
Heather
Yeah.

00:20:19.89
Bill
Yeah.

00:20:20.22
Heather
Don't, don't know how, don't know how.

00:20:20.76
Mike
Right. this Giant signage.

00:20:22.26
Heather
Yeah. Yeah. And of course somebody would be driving by and, and see it. Yeah.

00:20:28.82
Mike
course.

00:20:28.94
Bill
Oh, yeah.

00:20:29.40
Heather
Uh,

00:20:29.57
Bill
Anyone, yeah.

00:20:30.61
Heather
Yeah. So the gig was up and, um you know, then i kind of so obviously stepped back from, you know, the things that I was doing at Jean Marie and went into just like a really dark, dark time.

00:20:43.67
Heather
um

00:20:43.92
Mike
All right.

00:20:45.11
Heather
I decided that I want i my pride wouldn't let me come back to the rooms because I had managed to put 13 months together after struggling for well over a decade.

00:20:48.98
Mike
Right.

00:20:55.42
Heather
You know, I really, I really couldn't put more than two weeks together.

00:20:55.87
Mike
Right.

00:20:59.22
Heather
So having had that time, I, I was definitely not going to be able to show my face in AA ever again. Of course not. Um, you know, in the meantime, I'm watching that same friend, you know, get engaged and watching these, these women that I'd met watching their lives go on, you know, while I'm clutching my bottle on the couch, um, wallowing in my sorrows.

00:21:23.00
Heather
Um, I had taken on a hostage because you know that was going to solve the problem and um we were trying we were trying for a family and I don't even know I don't even know what I was trying.

00:21:27.47
Mike
Right.

00:21:35.42
Heather
I knew I wanted to be a mom.

00:21:35.81
Mike
Right. Right.

00:21:36.34
Bill
hey

00:21:36.43
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:21:36.95
Heather
I knew I wanted to be a mom and um it was during that time that I found out that I would not be able to have children.

00:21:37.24
Mike
right right

00:21:46.36
Heather
um

00:21:49.85
Heather
and And things just got really dark. Like I was perfectly content to to just die a drunk under a bridge. i And I remember just being really angry.

00:22:01.40
Mike
Yeah.

00:22:03.36
Heather
Like when I would wake up, like why why am I still here?

00:22:07.09
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:22:07.26
Heather
you know, there was a night where I threw up a toilet full of blood. Not not the normal teaspoon or two that I was used to but literally just kept vomiting blood. And I was like, this is it.

00:22:18.05
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:22:18.07
Heather
This is it. I did it. And then I woke up the next morning like, what am I still doing here?

00:22:23.37
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:22:24.12
Bill
her

00:22:24.34
Heather
Yeah.

00:22:24.66
Mike
o

00:22:27.19
Heather
Yeah. yeah I mean, now I know. Now I know. i know what I'm doing here now.

00:22:30.62
Mike
Sure.

00:22:31.58
Heather
He's down he's downstairs.

00:22:31.90
Mike
Yeah.

00:22:32.94
Heather
But at the time, I i didn't know.

00:22:33.34
Mike
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

00:22:33.94
Bill
right

00:22:36.18
Heather
you know um Eventually, I woke up in a jail cell with no idea how I got there.

00:22:41.06
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:22:41.82
Heather
um And that was enough for me to be like, okay, maybe I could try going back to AM.

00:22:46.96
Mike
Uh-huh.

00:22:48.28
Bill
hey

00:22:48.38
Heather
yeah Like, maybe, maybe I could give it another try.

00:22:52.22
Mike
hu

00:22:53.05
Heather
And yeah, I came back and still wasn't really, really too willing to take suggestions or, you know, i I, there is a God and I couldn't figure out that it wasn't me.

00:23:04.55
Heather
You know, I had all the answers and nobody, can't nobody tell me nothing.

00:23:05.24
Mike
Right. Mm-hmm.

00:23:08.94
Heather
So I struggled for, you know, and another couple, couple of months. And then finally, I was, you know, my last drunk was December.

00:23:24.34
Heather
sobriety dates the 31st. So my last drunk was December 30th of 2013. I didn't think it was going to be my last drunk. In fact, if you'd had asked, I'd have told.

00:23:31.96
Mike
We usually don't.

00:23:34.04
Heather
Yeah, I'd have told you for certain that it was just not going to work out for me. Like I was definitely going to, you know, die a drunk under a bridge.

00:23:42.62
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:23:42.87
Heather
I remember I sent my sponsor a picture of the bridge in, I think it's in North Olmstead. It's really big and green over by Lakewood. Like this is the bridge.

00:23:51.78
Bill
Right.

00:23:52.07
Heather
This is the bridge I'm going to go live under when this all eventually comes to an end. Cause I couldn't see my story playing out any other way.

00:24:00.11
Mike
Right.

00:24:00.60
Heather
um Yeah, but apparently, you know, God, God had other plans for me because I i didn't pick up. I didn't pick up.

00:24:08.45
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:24:09.43
Heather
And, um you know, at some point, little bits of willingness crept in. um About a month and a half in I lost my job through no fault of my own, which is a huge shock.

00:24:25.53
Mike
Right? For once.

00:24:26.74
Heather
ah yeah they eliminated my department you know i'm like ah

00:24:26.79
Bill
Bye. hey yeah

00:24:30.38
Heather
okay um yeah so i i lost my job and um you know there's only so much job hunting you can do before you've got to find other ways to fill your time and for the first time you know my sponsor was like no you will not go to gene marie you will not do groups You know, at that time, you know, the director had reached out, wanted me to help with some fundraiser.

00:24:31.58
Bill
and

00:24:52.69
Heather
And my sponsor was like, no, enough. You need to sit your ass down for once and just stay sober. Like, stop.

00:25:01.50
Mike
Right. Yeah, do the work.

00:25:03.58
Heather
Yeah, just stop.

00:25:03.96
Bill
Right.

00:25:06.46
Heather
and And so to spite my sponsor, I was like, oh, okay, so I'm not allowed to help with this fundraiser. So that's, that's fine. I will find other ways to spend time with these women. So I started following them to their meetings.

00:25:18.24
Heather
I mean, like, that's how I'm going to show my sponsor, like, I'm just going to go to all the meetings they go to.

00:25:19.10
Mike
I'll show you.

00:25:21.82
Bill
hey

00:25:24.47
Mike
right i'll show you

00:25:25.07
Heather
Oh, my I'll show you. I'll go to more meetings. such

00:25:30.10
Bill
hey

00:25:30.58
Heather
Oh, my God. The logic of the newly sober.

00:25:33.60
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:25:33.72
Heather
okay

00:25:33.78
Mike
Ah. Mm-hmm. Right. Mm-hmm.

00:25:35.42
Heather
so So, yeah, I lost i lost my job and started going to more meetings. And, you know, I came to a point where once again I decided I was i was going to drink. I didn't want to do this.

00:25:46.14
Heather
And I had already agreed to meet my friends at 1250. And I happened to hear our friend um Alfonso speak. And he talked about how his sister, think it was his sister, thought she had one more.

00:26:00.82
Mike
right

00:26:01.53
Heather
And she didn't.

00:26:02.62
Mike
business

00:26:03.77
Heather
And I don't know if it was the first, I don't know. I'm sure it wasn't the first time I heard it. But for some reason, it just stopped me in my tracks.

00:26:10.53
Mike
Yeah. Right.

00:26:12.44
Heather
It was what I needed to hear that night. And so I did not drink. I came home and I said what I feel like was my first genuine prayer of, okay, you know, I i don't know what it's going to take for me to be sober, but I give up. if i If I need to go work at McDonald's, go live under a bridge, you know, whatever it's going to take,

00:26:36.60
Mike
Yeah. You give up. You surrendered.

00:26:39.32
Heather
I surrender.

00:26:39.48
Mike
Finally.

00:26:39.86
Bill
ah

00:26:40.41
Heather
i surrender. You know, it was enough.

00:26:41.73
Mike
Yeah.

00:26:42.29
Heather
It was enough.

00:26:42.84
Mike
Yeah.

00:26:43.93
Heather
So I didn't drink that night. And again, i was I was trying to spite my sponsor by going to all these extra meetings.

00:26:50.14
Mike
Hmm.

00:26:50.25
Heather
And, you know, i started trying to find other ways to fill my time. um i remember one day i went to the zoo and I thought, you know, I was going to go walking and I'd already done everything I could do that day.

00:27:03.31
Mike
Hmm.

00:27:07.83
Heather
And was going to go go for a walk. And why not go walk at the zoo if you can? so

00:27:11.36
Mike
Hmm.

00:27:12.62
Heather
I'm at the zoo and I just remember seeing God everywhere. Like in the way that, in the way the elephants moved and this little kid gone running past me and hearing him laugh. And he had on this like animal onesie.

00:27:28.70
Heather
And I just was overwhelmed with all of the beauty, like all the beauty that I had been missing.

00:27:29.39
Bill
Right.

00:27:38.71
Mike
right

00:27:39.70
Heather
I saw God everywhere. i had, um, I feel like I was able to see that because I had started doing gratitude lists.

00:27:47.53
Mike
Hmm.

00:27:48.06
Heather
There was a group of us that were texting each other these lists and we had to come up with 10 things a day and it doesn't sound like a lot, but yeah, okay,

00:27:57.17
Mike
Hmm.

00:27:57.49
Bill
Oh, yes, it does. Oh, yeah, it sounds like a and though it sounds like a whole lot.

00:27:58.39
Mike
Yeah, it does. Yeah, right.

00:28:02.30
Heather
Yeah. Yeah. And I, you know, i I like, I am very much a by the numbers and I like rules and I'm, you know, my my job is payroll and accounting.

00:28:03.93
Bill
yeah

00:28:12.62
Heather
So i I like, I like to do the things. So if I said I was going to do 10, I'm going to do 10.

00:28:16.58
Mike
Mm-hmm. Right. Right.

00:28:19.45
Heather
And when you've got to come up with 10 things every day, you have you have no choice but to be looking for them all the time.

00:28:24.97
Mike
Yeah. Yeah. yeah

00:28:27.80
Heather
And you will always find exactly what you're looking for. So if you are at the zoo walking, looking for things to be grateful for, you're gonna see them.

00:28:30.87
Mike
and

00:28:39.54
Heather
You know, you're gonna see them when you pull into traffic and and somebody lets you over and they and they wave at you. Or you see a couple walking down the street holding hands, you're like, boom, that's a grateful.

00:28:49.94
Heather
You know, you just start seeing these things everywhere.

00:28:50.95
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:28:53.85
Mike
Right.

00:28:54.74
Heather
And lo and behold, you know, a spiritual experience en ensued during this time while I was looking for work.

00:29:01.24
Bill
Right.

00:29:05.34
Heather
And, you know, I remember somebody said that I would find a job and it would be better. And I don't know that I believed him, but it happened. um I found another job because my work history is shit.

00:29:13.90
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:29:17.60
Heather
I mean...

00:29:18.34
Mike
Of course.

00:29:19.51
Heather
oh i'm I'm really good at interviewing and then maybe ah a month. Like I've got those down pat.

00:29:25.92
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:29:26.97
Heather
I can put on a good show for a couple of months and then, you know, the drinking catches up with me and the attendance goes to shit and it's just a mess.

00:29:29.38
Mike
Right. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

00:29:35.71
Mike
Yeah.

00:29:36.14
Heather
So um i I got the job where I actually still am.

00:29:36.63
Mike
Yeah.

00:29:41.05
Heather
Yeah.

00:29:41.61
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:29:41.85
Bill
Nice.

00:29:43.59
Heather
And it's nice. It's been fit.

00:29:50.68
Heather
early on in recovery, I was invited on a spiritual retreat. You know, one of those where they don't tell you a whole lot about what's happening. You just, you just say yes and you get in the car.

00:29:57.54
Bill
Right, yeah.

00:30:00.84
Mike
Uh-huh.

00:30:01.59
Heather
And ah that was a,

00:30:03.48
Mike
We're kind of used to that, too.

00:30:05.21
Heather
Yeah, you just, you just say yes and you get in the car.

00:30:05.40
Bill
right yeah

00:30:09.01
Heather
That, that is the answer.

00:30:09.28
Mike
Yo.

00:30:12.37
Heather
uh, and I became very involved with that retreat for a couple, for the next couple of years. And I feel like that really, really helped mold me into, um, to prepare me for all the things that were yet to come.

00:30:17.66
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:30:27.67
Heather
And, um, Yeah, so that that leads us to all the happy stuff.

00:30:33.43
Mike
Right.

00:30:33.56
Bill
ah

00:30:33.62
Heather
oh that's This is where the magic begins, because at about two years sober, um i felt like I really needed to make some choices as to you know what what next, what now.

00:30:45.98
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:30:46.01
Heather
you know I'm sober. I've cleaned up the wreckage. you know things are Things are going well. What's the next thing? And I felt like I, you know, needed to make a choice. Did I want to continue to date and travel and, you know, live that life? Or did I want to try to become a mom?

00:31:05.79
Mike
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

00:31:06.23
Heather
And I, I kind of felt like those things were separate. Like I couldn't, couldn't pursue them both the amount of effort it would take. I didn't feel like I could pursue them both.

00:31:17.72
Heather
Um, I also felt like the best path for me, I am adopted. Um, I now know that, you know, my being adopted, you know, I say that's how I know that God was working for me in my life before I even came into existence.

00:31:33.88
Heather
Because if my mom had gotten to have her babies, then I wouldn't have gotten her. So.

00:31:39.13
Mike
Right.

00:31:39.95
Bill
Right.

00:31:40.79
Heather
You know, for me, I knew when I was ready that the path for me for motherhood was going to be adoption. And I didn't think I wanted to go the baby route.

00:31:51.61
Mike
Right.

00:31:51.67
Heather
um Private adoption, you know, aside from the initial, you know, upfront expenses, the the child care and daycare after that, approaching this as a single parent.

00:31:58.20
Mike
Right.

00:32:02.02
Heather
I'm not rich. I just, you know, I've i've got a middle class income. I don't I don't even know if it's that.

00:32:06.76
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:32:08.09
Heather
Whatever. Whatever.

00:32:08.63
Mike
Right. Right.

00:32:10.87
Heather
I knew that that private adoption was probably not going to be the way to go. And so i um decided that I wanted to pursue motherhood through foster care and adoption.

00:32:21.79
Bill
Right.

00:32:22.62
Heather
And, um you know, and that was hands down the hardest and scariest thing I've ever done.

00:32:29.37
Mike
Right.

00:32:30.30
Heather
um because I know what my heart wanted. And obviously, you know, the goal of foster care is reunification. You know, you are not to go into this with the goal of adopting a child. You are to go into it knowing that the goal is to provide a safe and loving home for this child so they can go back to their family.

00:32:50.14
Mike
Right.

00:32:50.94
Heather
And um I was really naive and really honest right up from the rip when I started the process and told them that I was an alcoholic in recovery.

00:32:59.26
Mike
a

00:33:00.63
Heather
um thinking that that would be a good thing because I can show that i can show the the people, you know, that recovery is possible and buth blah, blah, blah, blah.

00:33:06.39
Mike
e Sure. Sure.

00:33:08.43
Heather
And oh my God.

00:33:09.21
Mike
Right. Yeah.

00:33:10.17
Heather
And shockingly, Child Protective Services was not too keen on on an alcoholic wanting to be a foster parent.

00:33:14.81
Mike
Right.

00:33:14.97
Bill
Yeah.

00:33:15.15
Mike
Right. Right.

00:33:19.13
Heather
You know, so I had all these extra hoops that I needed to jump through. You know, what normally takes about six months took 18 months. to get licensed. um And then even after that, there were a lot of extra hurdles that were put put in the way.

00:33:34.05
Heather
you know And at one point, the the lady admitted, we we just don't want our kids with people like you, she said.

00:33:39.96
Mike
right

00:33:40.42
Bill
Right. So let me, let me interrupt real quick.

00:33:42.52
Heather
Yeah, please do.

00:33:42.83
Bill
So I want to ask you a question, I think for, for other people that um are listening to, because I, i mean, i didn't deal with what you dealt with as far as trying to get into that sort of thing. But I sat down with, with Phyllis when I was going back to work, you know, of course I'd been out of work for four months.

00:33:56.70
Bill
And like you had said, you know, the job situation I had, I did well when I, when I did well, but when I didn't, I got I didn't get fired from a lot of places, but I got gently pushed out from a lot of places or left before I got fired, you know.

00:34:08.90
Bill
um

00:34:09.32
Heather
huh

00:34:10.17
Bill
But I had this now. I had never had a gap in employment ever in my life up to that point. well that's not true. I had month, month and a half when I was in my early 20s, but that was explainable because I got let go ah basically laid off from a particular position.

00:34:24.20
Bill
But so now I had this four month gap and I was talking about this whole, you know, we're preach, you know, everyone's preaching to us, you know, the honesty part. The number one thing is, is honesty and honesty and honesty.

00:34:34.04
Heather
Yeah.

00:34:34.62
Bill
And I sat down to to Phyllis with Phyllis and I said, how do I deal with this? You know, what do what do I say?

00:34:38.55
Heather
Yeah.

00:34:39.66
Bill
you know, and she gave me, you know, a line and that's what I'll call it. But it was ah it was an honest line. you know, she said, you, you want to be honest with people, but not to your detriment. She said, you don't want to lie to people, but we can't always tell the complete truth.

00:34:55.80
Bill
And she said, as long as you're not, you know, intentionally, you know, trying to, to hide something or, or that sort of thing.

00:34:55.80
Mike
who

00:34:55.80
Heather
Yeah.

00:35:02.64
Bill
So I said, well, what do I say? You know, I was in Wisconsin for, you know, for fucking years and now I'm out here.

00:35:05.21
Heather
Yeah.

00:35:08.15
Bill
And she said, well, I said, the only thing, you know, because I said right now, you know, I'm helping out a little bit with my with my stepdad. He's getting sick. And she's like, that's your that's your story. That's what are you talking about?

00:35:17.40
Heather
Yeah.

00:35:18.08
Bill
And she said, tell people you came out to Ohio to take care of a sick family member.

00:35:18.36
Heather
Yeah.

00:35:23.13
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:35:23.80
Bill
And she said, you don't have to tell them that you were the sick family member.

00:35:27.19
Heather
Yeah.

00:35:27.56
Bill
And I was, I was, I took, came out to take care of myself and then ended up in, you know, I used that when I was going back to work, but um I never regretted using that. But I also never regretted telling the complete truth because I, I, I didn't hide it, but i I wasn't open and out about my, my sobriety until couple of years ago, two and a half years ago.

00:35:39.89
Heather
yep. Okay.

00:35:48.41
Bill
You know, and that's so it's, um you know, I wasn't on on LinkedIn.

00:35:48.73
Heather
okay

00:35:51.41
Bill
I wasn't whatever. I just wasn't open about it because of that same like thinking about backlash. But in in your situation, do you even though it took longer, you know, to to get to your end thing, because we we know the good stuff is coming up.

00:36:05.21
Bill
We know what happened. Other people will shortly. But do you do you have any reservations whatsoever about being completely upfront with people? And how would you suggest that other people handle that situation that you went through if it was that big of a deal?

00:36:23.45
Heather
I do feel like honesty is the best the best policy. Now, granted, like I approached this very naively. like i Coming back to Cleveland, the only people I knew at that point were all in AA.

00:36:37.72
Bill
yeah Right.

00:36:38.26
Heather
So I had no frame of reference for stereotype and bias.

00:36:42.34
Mike
Sure.

00:36:43.09
Heather
like

00:36:43.73
Bill
yeah

00:36:44.54
Heather
My family and friends were all, were either, my family supported me 100% and all my, everyone I knew was AA.

00:36:49.34
Mike
Sure.

00:36:50.94
Heather
So I just genuinely was fricking clueless that anybody would have, but would have like, you know, a reason to think that alcoholics are not great people.

00:36:51.50
Bill
Right.

00:36:57.05
Bill
a

00:36:57.08
Mike
e

00:37:01.85
Mike
sure

00:37:01.94
Bill
Right, right.

00:37:02.17
Heather
but So um i I recommend being, i I do recommend being honest. um i Although I don't know that I'd have, I'd say, let this be your opening line.

00:37:14.07
Heather
i no

00:37:14.39
Bill
Yeah. Hi, my name's Heather.

00:37:16.17
Mike
Right.

00:37:16.23
Bill
And just so you know,

00:37:18.07
Heather
Yeah, because that is that is pretty much how I approached it because I.

00:37:20.36
Bill
yeah, well, that's, that's, that's what it sounds like you did.

00:37:21.02
Mike
Right.

00:37:22.89
Bill
That's why I was, that's, I was asking the question, but um yeah.

00:37:24.57
Heather
Yeah.

00:37:25.77
Bill
So, so honestly, but maybe some ah like in in your case, maybe, you know, have a conversation with with some people or maybe be a little bit more, didn't even want to say control. That's the wrong way to put it, but just be a little discreet, thoughtful.

00:37:36.55
Mike
Discreet. Right.

00:37:38.54
Heather
Yeah, yeah, using some discretion.

00:37:38.58
Bill
Yeah.

00:37:38.78
Mike
Right. Right.

00:37:39.02
Bill
Discreet. That's a great way to, yeah. Yeah.

00:37:40.92
Mike
right

00:37:40.98
Heather
Using some discretion.

00:37:41.21
Bill
Okay.

00:37:42.22
Heather
Like letting them get to know me before just, you know, I'm an alcoholic and blah, blah, blah.

00:37:42.68
Mike
right

00:37:47.81
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:37:48.12
Heather
Like they they didn't have anything to reference me against.

00:37:48.50
Mike
Right. well exact Well, except all the other people that Child and Family Protective Services are dealing with, right?

00:37:51.89
Bill
Right.

00:37:53.99
Heather
eggs There you have it. Exactly.

00:37:58.12
Mike
Yeah, you know, they're dealing with ah with us all the time and not not sober, right?

00:38:01.66
Heather
Yeah. Right, right. Yeah. So definitely that that would be my recommendation is to be forthcoming, but let it be, you know, part of the conversation, not the the opening line.

00:38:15.15
Heather
Like this isn't, hi, I'm Heather, I'm an alcoholic. let me Let me take care of your kids.

00:38:18.62
Mike
Yeah, give me a kid.

00:38:20.50
Bill
Yeah.

00:38:20.82
Heather
yeah you can

00:38:21.42
Bill
Where's, yeah. Where do you, yeah. Where do you, where do you keep your children? Yeah, exactly.

00:38:24.79
Heather
but

00:38:30.10
Bill
yeah All right.

00:38:30.44
Heather
Oh my goodness, that's funny.

00:38:33.82
Bill
So, so again, you were in, and I, again, didn't mean to interrupt you, but I guess I did. Cause I, I wanted to know the answer to that, but so you're at, you're at 18 months.

00:38:40.15
Heather
Yeah.

00:38:41.02
Bill
So it took 18 months to get where it should have taken it six.

00:38:43.29
Heather
Just to get licensed.

00:38:43.58
Bill
I think that's where, yeah, just to get, okay.

00:38:44.41
Heather
Yeah.

00:38:45.91
Bill
Okay.

00:38:46.74
Heather
Yeah. And please interrupt anytime because I am a chatty Cathy and I will just yammer on incessantly.

00:38:50.94
Mike
he

00:38:53.54
Heather
So jump in anytime.

00:38:54.23
Bill
No, and that's, and we, we do. I mean, we, when we have questions and and that sort of thing, cause I mean, the, the, the thing that is we, we know you, but, um, I like, like Mike had said, I, I, I know for a fact, I would say 100%, I've never heard your lead.

00:39:05.91
Bill
least i don't, if I did, I don't think I did.

00:39:06.32
Mike
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

00:39:07.91
Bill
Uh, you know, and I, I knew your situation, but I didn't know all of it. So, you know, it's a, we're, we're kind of a, we're full of curiosity with all these things. So we, we ask questions, right?

00:39:16.21
Mike
and

00:39:16.76
Heather
Cool. Cool.

00:39:19.22
Bill
Okay. So 18, 18 months in to get licensed. So that's where you were.

00:39:22.07
Heather
Yeah.

00:39:22.94
Bill
Okay.

00:39:23.06
Heather
Yeah. So 18 months to get licensed and they so they still didn't want to they still didn't want to give me a kid. And I was not getting any calls and um was still facing a lot of hurdles.

00:39:35.22
Heather
And eventually, i um you know the nerd that I am, I put together a PowerPoint presentation. I had seen um that alcoholism

00:39:41.27
Bill
but

00:39:46.10
Heather
um that this is this is an actual, ah what is it, the ADA, Americans with Disabilities, like it's a protected, you can't discriminate against someone for this.

00:39:53.88
Mike
Mm hmm. All right.

00:39:56.28
Bill
Right.

00:39:58.09
Heather
And i had I had been at Job and Family Services and had seen a discrimination thing in the elevator.

00:40:05.57
Mike
Mm hmm.

00:40:06.20
Heather
And it it made me go looking through their policies. And so I i put together i PowerPoint presentation.

00:40:09.75
Mike
Right.

00:40:13.57
Heather
And when my my guy came over, i was like, listen, this is this is not what's supposed to be happening.

00:40:19.25
Bill
Ha ha ha.

00:40:21.62
Heather
And this is what I think is happening. And i'd I'd really like us to be able to move forward without moving into discrimination law and and all that fun stuff.

00:40:27.99
Mike
Right.

00:40:31.17
Mike
Nice.

00:40:33.11
Heather
And lo and behold, I started getting calls.

00:40:35.93
Mike
nice

00:40:37.46
Heather
um Yeah, so the first two were um were not a good fit, and I think he he knew that. But the the third call I got, i I don't know.

00:40:49.56
Heather
the The stars aligned and there was no hesitation. You know what? I do i do need to back up because that's my favorite my favorite moment is that um but through this whole process, I had initially started with, I want a toddler girl.

00:40:58.20
Mike
Right.

00:41:04.33
Heather
I wanted a little girl, a toddler.

00:41:05.02
Bill
okay

00:41:05.19
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:41:06.29
Heather
I wanted my shot at a young kid.

00:41:08.50
Mike
Right.

00:41:09.17
Heather
And after what we're at like almost, we're coming up on two years now. And I, um, once again was in a very dark place where I was like, they are not going to, they are not going to give me a kid.

00:41:20.50
Heather
Like they are purposely, they only called with two kids that were, they knew we're not going to be a good fit based on their needs.

00:41:21.12
Mike
Right.

00:41:27.14
Heather
Like I'm a single person works full time. There are only certain things I can do.

00:41:31.71
Mike
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

00:41:32.25
Heather
And, uh, On the way to work one day, I called i called a friend of mine in tears and said, you know what, I think I'm going to have to change my, when you go through this process, you can you can tell them what you're looking for. Like, i I'm willing to take this kind of child and what you're looking for. And again, I started with, I want a toddler girl.

00:41:51.35
Heather
You know, and gradually over the course of that time, I kept expanding my age range, changing the gender, you know, to a point where I was like, okay, we're all the way up to any child under 12 that doesn't start fires or beat animals.

00:42:04.06
Mike
Right.

00:42:04.57
Bill
Right.

00:42:05.17
Heather
um And I called a friend in tears and I was like, you know, I i think um i think I'm going to have to say that I'll take teenagers. And I'm crying because I just, like, this is my one time. And I wanted my shot at a younger kid. And I know that teens are hard to place. And the minute you say I'm willing to take teenagers, going take that's how the story's going to go.

00:42:25.98
Heather
And so I'm telling my friend, like, I just need to trust the process that if I say I'll take any, anything that's not a, any child, that's not a fire starter or an animal abuser, I'll take them.

00:42:26.42
Mike
Right.

00:42:38.21
Mike
Mm-hmm. All

00:42:38.79
Heather
I've got to trust God will know what god will know what's up.

00:42:41.50
Mike
right.

00:42:41.72
Heather
And I kid you not, less than four hours later, the call came.

00:42:46.29
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:42:46.84
Heather
Um, was for a little boy, age seven. They didn't know anything about him, but he he needed a place to go.

00:42:50.41
Mike
All

00:42:53.56
Heather
And I said, yes.

00:42:55.13
Mike
right.

00:42:55.77
Heather
And he came that night. And even though every you know every everything they tell you is that this is you know this is temporary, i knew.

00:43:07.62
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:43:09.00
Heather
i knew the moment he walked in the door. it was It was literally like I had been waiting to breathe my whole life.

00:43:11.36
Mike
Mm

00:43:17.91
Heather
And I exhaled like, this is this is who I've been waiting for. This is why the toilet's full of blood. This is why I woke up.

00:43:23.59
Mike
hmm.

00:43:23.75
Heather
This is it.

00:43:24.28
Mike
Right.

00:43:24.41
Bill
Right.

00:43:25.02
Heather
I knew the moment he walked in and he's still here. He's still here.

00:43:27.93
Mike
Yup.

00:43:28.47
Bill
ah ah

00:43:31.06
Heather
He's still here. um Yeah. So everything I went through, like all of those struggles that I went through getting licensed and whatnot, you know, you asked, would you have done it differently?

00:43:42.63
Heather
And I'm i'm glad that it went the way it did because

00:43:44.96
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:43:45.59
Heather
it created all of those hurdles.

00:43:48.26
Bill
Right.

00:43:48.76
Heather
And that was all just a freaking warm up for what it was like being a foster parent.

00:43:52.03
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:43:54.26
Heather
You know, I i really thought that that the biological parent was going to be, you know, jumping in and doing the things.

00:43:54.65
Mike
Right.

00:44:02.81
Heather
And, you know, things just didn't go the way that that I thought they were going to go.

00:44:03.40
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:44:07.78
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:44:07.96
Heather
And it was really hard. And there was a lot of uncertainty and a lot of pain and a lot of, not knowing how this is going

00:44:17.27
Mike
Right.

00:44:18.01
Heather
And then, you know, finally it it came to where he, my son could not be reunited with his biological family. And i adopted him 2021.

00:44:27.94
Mike
Right.

00:44:30.86
Mike
Mm hmm. Mm hmm.

00:44:32.20
Heather
it, and um it it is my purpose. Like I believe with every fiber of my being, this is the answer to why it was to be Zion's mom.

00:44:44.96
Mike
Yep.

00:44:45.62
Bill
Right. So what what do you think, Mike? A good place to...

00:44:48.28
Mike
Yeah.

00:44:49.05
Bill
Good place to good place to take...

00:44:49.24
Heather
Take a break. Perfect.

00:44:52.49
Bill
We're going to take a break here, but Michael handled this.

00:44:54.39
Heather
perfect

00:44:54.97
Bill
But yeah, we were trying to...

00:44:55.69
Mike
Abs.

00:44:56.05
Bill
I was trying to figure out you know kind of a way to do this. And i'm like I'm like, God, this is so fucking heartfelt and beautiful in here. i'm like, I don't want to interrupt shit.

00:45:02.22
Mike
Yeah.

00:45:03.33
Bill
But anyhow.

00:45:04.18
Mike
Fine.

00:45:04.54
Bill
hey

00:45:06.74
Mike
I'll do it.

00:45:07.80
Bill
it

00:45:08.50
Heather
yeah

00:45:09.10
Mike
We'll be back with Zion's mom after these words from our sponsors.

00:45:21.78
Bill
All right, everyone, welcome back. And you know, the reason I asked that question, Heather, to begin with about, um you know, obviously would you have done it differently is because Mike and I talk about that a lot, right?

00:45:26.28
Mike
Mm.

00:45:33.11
Mike
e

00:45:34.49
Bill
And we've talked about it in, you know, what if we talk about a lot of what is, what if we wouldve would have gotten sober earlier?

00:45:39.80
Heather
Mm-hmm.

00:45:40.29
Bill
What if this would happen?

00:45:40.38
Heather
Yeah.

00:45:41.21
Bill
What if this wouldn't have happened? Blah, blah, blah. and And Mike, you say it the best way you call it dangerous, right?

00:45:46.84
Mike
No, yeah absolutely. i mean, you know, I mean, it all comes back down to us trying to control shit. And we know we that we can't do that.

00:45:52.02
Bill
Right.

00:45:52.26
Heather
Yep. Yeah.

00:45:54.24
Mike
Right. You know, and, and um you know, the good stuff that happens.

00:45:54.98
Heather
Right.

00:45:59.74
Mike
Yes, we have to go through a lot of shit to get there. But I mean, it wouldn't mean as much if we didn't have to go through all that shit.

00:46:06.14
Heather
right

00:46:06.30
Mike
If it was easy, if it was handed to us, we wouldn't appreciate it. We wouldn't have that gratitude for it. And it wouldn't mean as much. So, yeah, you know, yeah.

00:46:15.09
Heather
Yeah.

00:46:16.18
Mike
yeah Regret is is, yes, like Bill said, dangerous.

00:46:20.41
Bill
And, you know, so I had a pretty goddamn good idea why yeah what your answer was going to be.

00:46:20.95
Heather
Yeah.

00:46:25.62
Bill
But, you know, it is a situation because it's the the honesty part, even though, ah again, we we knew the end of the story. We knew everything has, you know, has turned out well. And you're going to tell us, obviously, the rest of how things have went and and still going.

00:46:38.78
Bill
But. So we we knew the we knew where it was going, but still, you know at that point, you know that youre like like you said, that that that was so fucking funny because i all I did was worry about what other people on the outside.

00:46:51.87
Bill
i had Because I grew up when my dad was an alcoholic.

00:46:52.25
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:46:54.39
Bill
I saw some of the bias. He explained some of the bias that he dealt with over the years. So I've seen other things like that. you know So I was keenly aware of it. I wasn't aware of what I needed to do to stay sober, but i knew i thought I knew what it was like to be to be criticized as a fucking alcoholic.

00:47:08.92
Heather
Yeah.

00:47:09.37
Bill
So that's why I was so focused on that with Phyllis. But I also I was torn between this this this cynical fuck that I am.

00:47:12.62
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:47:16.73
Bill
And but on top of it also, you know, seeping into this, trying to be a good person, being like, yeah, for once in my goddamn life, I want to be honest and I don't want to lie to people, you know.

00:47:22.02
Heather
Mm-hmm.

00:47:24.57
Heather
Yeah.

00:47:26.08
Bill
um But, yeah, what ah what a great, you know, when you said 2021 that the adoption was, for some reason, I mean, that's still, that's five years ago, you know, ish, whatever it was in 21.

00:47:31.85
Heather
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

00:47:35.88
Bill
But it seemed like it been longer than that. And what year was it when um when you, when he walked in that door the first time, what year was that?

00:47:38.41
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:47:43.99
Heather
October 2018.

00:47:46.39
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:47:46.68
Bill
28. Okay. So, in and I remember that too. And I remember the switch over because weren't you like, weren't you like trying to get a bunch of clothes for little girls stuff like that? And all of a sudden you're like, you're like, ah I need boy stuff because, you know, in all of us were,

00:47:54.85
Heather
Uh-huh. Yeah.

00:47:55.81
Mike
Mm-hmm. he its

00:47:59.81
Heather
Yeah. Uh-huh.

00:48:00.73
Bill
Yeah, I mean, all of us were just kind of like, you know, like, like okay, let's let's call anyone we knew or might have who might have you know boys or clothes or or whatever. And i I remember that vividly because you're like, all got is this girl stuff.

00:48:10.75
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:48:12.73
Bill
And I know I've got a seven-year-old boy.

00:48:13.14
Heather
yeah

00:48:15.13
Bill
You know, yeah i need so I need some shit here.

00:48:15.45
Heather
yeah aha

00:48:17.05
Bill
So... So God, that 2018 and 20, that's cool. That's very cool. So, so anyhow, so now he's, he's your, he, he became your forever child. Obviously he adopted him in 21 and you know, how did things, I don't know.

00:48:26.04
Heather
Yeah.

00:48:28.69
Bill
you You tell the rest of your story. I'm sure you've got a lot and lot to tell. I know that.

00:48:33.05
Heather
Well, you know, it's it's funny that you brought that up because that just, that is a testament to AA because you're right.

00:48:38.72
Bill
Right.

00:48:39.92
Heather
had been prepping for a little girl and then i had been prepping for a small child, a toddler, either gender, toddler, but I still skewed heavy.

00:48:46.14
Bill
Right.

00:48:46.14
Mike
Right.

00:48:48.62
Heather
Like I had, when you, when you become a foster parent, you are supposed to, have clothes and supplies for any age you are willing to take. So if you're supposed if you're open to taking babies, you are expected to have a crib and and all the accoutrement that you need for a baby.

00:48:58.04
Bill
na Right, right.

00:49:05.71
Mike
Right.

00:49:06.33
Heather
If you are willing to take ah a teenager, you need to have all the stuff for a teenager.

00:49:06.65
Mike
Mm hmm.

00:49:11.17
Heather
So I had a bedroom full of you know binned and stuffed clothes for girls ages you know infant to you know whatever.

00:49:21.38
Mike
Right.

00:49:22.04
Heather
And literally nothing, nothing for a a ah young boy. And so I cleared the room out and there was nothing left in that room, but like a teddy bear and, you know, a couple of things that I had run out and got him.

00:49:27.16
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:49:35.24
Bill
Okay.

00:49:38.67
Heather
Like the the the call came in and it was like, I left work at four o'clock, came home, ran out to get him some pajamas, underwear and a pizza

00:49:52.22
Bill
hey

00:49:52.98
Heather
When I came back, I needed to be back before seven. Somebody had already been to the house, had dropped stuff off on the porch, There was stuff in my mailbox that I didn't even know was there.

00:50:05.00
Mike
Yo.

00:50:06.55
Heather
And I kid you not, within two days, that room was overflowing with, he never even got to wear all the clothes that we got, you know, and that's, that's what AA does.

00:50:15.32
Bill
Right.

00:50:17.31
Heather
Like they, they showed up.

00:50:17.75
Mike
ye

00:50:17.89
Bill
Right.

00:50:19.23
Heather
The room was overflowing with, with clothes and toys. And it was unbelievable. Unbelievable.

00:50:29.25
Bill
Right.

00:50:29.49
Heather
Unbelievable.

00:50:31.01
Bill
Yeah, and you know, that is the kind of amazing is that, I mean, Cleveland, I, well, I mean, don't, you know, you're not going to convince Mike or I that it's any different, but any different than what I'm going to say is that Cleveland is a special kind of place to begin with, you know, and I've been to different parts of the country, went to meetings, so has Mike.

00:50:48.21
Bill
Nothing wrong with any of the places, but, you know, the sobriety and the meetings and the people and what you just said.

00:50:50.20
Heather
Right. Right.

00:50:54.35
Bill
I mean, there was, you know, there was times when was leaving, when i was leaving uh cleveland to go back to wisconsin um you know i made a couple of phone calls and i'm like okay so you know my mom now is going to be going to be alone there mike was still in town but i'm like mike's driving he's you know was on the road all the time and this and that he can still do stuff for her and you got plenty of fucking phone calls ah which is wonderful.

00:51:07.94
Mike
Right.

00:51:10.96
Mike
Mm hmm. Right.

00:51:15.62
Mike
Yep.

00:51:18.15
Bill
We've talked about that before, but, um but it's like, okay, so who's going to plow her driveway?

00:51:18.70
Mike
Yep.

00:51:22.42
Bill
Who's going to do this? If she needs something fixed, who's she going to call?

00:51:23.48
Heather
Yeah. Yep.

00:51:25.18
Bill
And, you know, so um there was, I, I kind of, we, we spread out this spider web of of messages to people and just like, Hey, if, If we need something, can we call you?

00:51:35.26
Bill
You know, this is where she's at.

00:51:35.71
Mike
Right.

00:51:37.06
Bill
Everyone's like, if she needs something, let me know. And it it wasn't like she needs anything for free. She's just like, she'll pay you, you know, but if she needs some work done or whatever, she just needs to get this stuff set.

00:51:42.32
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:51:43.80
Heather
Yeah.

00:51:47.46
Bill
And everyone came, you know, to, you know, to kind of to her rescue, you know, if if she needed it.

00:51:51.25
Heather
Mm huh

00:51:52.66
Bill
And anything, I mean, there i've I've seen and heard probably hundreds, if not thousands of stories about about people in those circumstances.

00:51:58.61
Mike
Yeah.

00:52:01.16
Bill
And you're right.

00:52:01.32
Heather
Yep.

00:52:02.00
Bill
I mean, it's just all it takes is, you know, these days, you know, as as much a pain in the ass that social media could be a post on Facebook or Instagram and a couple of phone calls.

00:52:09.75
Heather
Yep.

00:52:11.70
Bill
And, you know, now you got 100 people out there working for you, you know, and it's and that turns into 200 more.

00:52:11.81
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:52:15.17
Heather
Yep.

00:52:17.42
Bill
And it's just it's it's heartwarming, you know.

00:52:20.06
Heather
It is. It is. There are many paths to recovery. i'm I'm trying to, you know, now one of the things I'm going through is getting my peer certification, ah you know, that whole deal.

00:52:30.89
Heather
So there there are many paths to recovery. I know what worked for me.

00:52:34.04
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:52:34.89
Heather
and

00:52:35.42
Mike
Right.

00:52:36.73
Heather
And this is this is part of why, you know, a a is so is so special because this is this is what it does.

00:52:44.65
Mike
Yeah.

00:52:45.24
Bill
Right.

00:52:45.61
Mike
Right. Yeah. Well, it is. It's peer support. It's, you know, one drunk helping another.

00:52:50.24
Bill
Right.

00:52:52.28
Heather
Yeah.

00:52:53.57
Mike
In all of it.

00:52:53.98
Heather
Yeah.

00:52:54.67
Mike
Yeah.

00:52:57.85
Bill
And then, I mean, i'm I'm sure there had to have been. So you know so now you've got you know you got you got the 7-year-old. He's adopted now, and then it becomes – I mean, there there's times when it's – obviously things become real. He's a really good kid.

00:53:08.69
Bill
I mean, I've enjoyed the hell out of him and every time. i don't I don't see you guys a lot, you know but he seems like, a number one, very –

00:53:12.92
Heather
Yeah.

00:53:17.30
Bill
well, well spoken, well polite. I mean, very polite. I mean, just really, ah really nice kid, you know, and, and really well-rounded and everything like that, which um I have no idea what is, what his past is.

00:53:20.46
Mike
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

00:53:22.97
Mike
yeah

00:53:28.26
Bill
And I'm not asking you to, you know, obviously tell his past, but um you know, I can't imagine that, you know, when, when these children ended up in these circumstances and everything was, you know, I mean, sunshine and roses in their past, but, I mean, it's, it's, I can't even imagine there's got to be so many just rewards that you've been, been able to obviously experience over the years, I would think.

00:53:29.59
Heather
Yeah.

00:53:48.63
Heather
Yeah, so it was definitely not sunshine and roses.

00:53:54.65
Mike
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

00:53:54.92
Bill
Right.

00:53:55.93
Heather
And there too, you know, this is all part of how, you know, my higher power shows up. So, you know, the company that I am, i currently work for and had been working for before Zion came, um we take care of ah the and the developmental disability community.

00:54:14.14
Heather
that's That's what our agency does. So while I am not one of the caregivers, I'm i'm payroll and you know back in the office, we did have to go through a lot of trauma-informed care training.

00:54:16.08
Bill
Mm-hmm.

00:54:26.07
Heather
where we really learned about you know trauma and and what that looks like. you know in In those cases, the training's really kind of geared towards the developmental disability community.

00:54:36.79
Heather
However, i had all of this frame of reference before, you know like God was just setting up all these things before Zion even came game into play.

00:54:37.29
Mike
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

00:54:46.11
Heather
um, where I would, where I would know these skills and, and go through things to kind of, you know, I will never understand all of the things that he has been through.

00:54:46.46
Bill
Right.

00:54:56.93
Heather
Um, it was, it was really dark.

00:54:57.54
Bill
Sure.

00:54:59.76
Heather
You know, he came, came to me covered in bruises and his, his story was on the news and, um,

00:55:10.97
Heather
Yeah, it it was not good. So those, those first, you know, that first year was really hard.

00:55:12.89
Mike
Right.

00:55:18.30
Heather
And, um, not only that, are you dealing with all the trauma, but there's, you know, inconsistent visits and broken promises and, you know, all sorts of things where you're still trying to go through this process before you get to, you know, the actual, okay, we're gonna, you know, terminate rights and move forward with permanency.

00:55:27.45
Mike
Uh-huh.

00:55:37.97
Bill
Right.

00:55:38.30
Heather
Um, so. He is such a miracle because you you wouldn't know what he's been through to meet him. you you You wouldn't.

00:55:48.60
Mike
Right.

00:55:48.99
Heather
You would never know the darkness that he has seen. he is a delightful human being. And, you know, don't think that has a whole heck of a lot to do with me. I think that's just all, you know,

00:56:01.94
Mike
I think you got a little bit to do with it. Okay.

00:56:05.09
Heather
little, maybe a little.

00:56:05.34
Bill
Yeah, I think you can give yourself give yourself a hair of credit in there.

00:56:06.31
Heather
He is... he

00:56:07.13
Mike
Right. And I mean, you know, and and there's a certain built in empathy in us because, you know, we understand, you know, the the broken promises and that, yeah, all that shit that we have caused, you know, maybe to a lesser degree, but it's still built into us.

00:56:09.11
Bill
ah

00:56:13.82
Bill
Right.

00:56:13.91
Heather
Yep. Yep. Yeah.

00:56:18.52
Heather
Yep. Yep. Yeah.

00:56:24.70
Mike
And and we remember what what it's like on the other side of that.

00:56:24.98
Heather
Yeah.

00:56:29.50
Mike
And so that I think that's extremely helpful to the person that it's being done to when you can be there for them and also understand the other side so you can help him understand the other side.

00:56:44.70
Heather
Yeah.

00:56:45.25
Mike
Yeah. Yeah.

00:56:45.80
Bill
Right.

00:56:46.39
Heather
Yeah.

00:56:46.49
Bill
Well, and even think about the relationships that, and take away him for for just a moment, but think about the relationships that that you know we've all developed. And I mean, us individually, the three of us, you know since we've been sober, either either rekindling, um cleaning up that wreckage in the past, as you mentioned previously.

00:57:03.37
Mike
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

00:57:04.21
Bill
you know But then you know friendships. And then, you know I mean, i've got I've got grandkids and the relationships I have with my children now and their significant others and that sort of thing. And these, again, these relationships that we that we build now in sobriety, I think, goes exactly to what you were saying, Mike, is that...

00:57:21.90
Bill
you know, basically that we've, we dealt with all the fucking shit, you know, it's like, and, you know, treating people how we want to be treated and, you know, maybe having that little slice of, you know, empathy more, more here than we would normally.

00:57:26.42
Heather
Yep.

00:57:29.18
Heather
Yep.

00:57:33.90
Bill
Like Mike, Mike always he says, when we first got to the Keating Center, he's a house father, you know, of course his job is to, you know, give people, you know, soap, at paper, toothpaste. And he goes, he goes, I don't give a fuck about you because he goes, but I did it.

00:57:46.01
Mike
Right. Mm-hmm.

00:57:46.37
Heather
Yep.

00:57:46.83
Bill
I took the action.

00:57:47.96
Heather
ah

00:57:48.38
Bill
And, you know, it is, yeah,

00:57:48.79
Mike
Right. yeah Fake it till you make it.

00:57:49.83
Heather
ahha

00:57:50.51
Mike
tell Yeah, exactly.

00:57:50.90
Heather
yet

00:57:51.47
Mike
Right. Well, i used to it was an example I always gave a group.

00:57:51.99
Heather
yep

00:57:52.22
Bill
i

00:57:55.03
Mike
Yes, I was a house father and somebody came up to me. Right. I'm, you know, 60 days sober. and hey man, I need some soap.

00:57:59.96
Bill
ah

00:58:01.83
Mike
You know, I don't fucking care. And I still kind of don't. um

00:58:06.33
Heather
Yeah.

00:58:06.46
Mike
But, yeah you know, but I took the action, went and got the guy some soap and my life got better because didn't have to smell a stinky ass. and And that's how this thing works. Do something for somebody else and my life gets better because of it.

00:58:16.47
Bill
Right.

00:58:16.60
Heather
ah huh yeah

00:58:19.94
Mike
Yeah.

00:58:20.18
Heather
yeah

00:58:20.98
Mike
Yeah.

00:58:22.14
Bill
But yeah, then but on top of it, Heather, I mean, you you get to be, you get to be an example, you know, for, for him, that's, that's the big thing, you know, but on top of that, and I look at these, it, all of our friends that have kids, you know, and that have, um have these, these young individuals running around.

00:58:36.62
Bill
And I mean, we could be as, you know, sick and twisted as, as the next person, but I think most of the time, 90% of the time we're, we act like decent human beings around these little, these little people.

00:58:40.49
Mike
Yeah.

00:58:46.19
Bill
You know, and then, you know, so we end up, you know, inadvertently, maybe some, maybe on purpose, maybe, you know, being, being good examples to these kids too.

00:58:46.51
Heather
Yep.

00:58:52.23
Mike
Mm-mm.

00:58:54.70
Bill
And then, you know, these, these children end up seeing this, this whole different world that they were never used to, which, and we do too.

00:58:59.36
Heather
Yep. Yep.

00:59:01.66
Bill
I mean, ah clearly, but I don't know. It's just, it's this, this positive ripple effect that that Mike and I always talk about too, that, know, When we were doing bad, you know we had this negative shit. We affected everyone with this with this bad ripple that went out.

00:59:14.36
Bill
But we do the same thing now that we're sober. you know We do something good, and it affects you know our our family and our friends and these people around us and those people. And I get this whole you know positive ripple effect.

00:59:24.72
Bill
It's just ah and that's a great thing, you know really, when it comes down to it.

00:59:27.97
Heather
Oh, yeah.

00:59:28.04
Bill
It's just us us you know making probably making up for for all the bad shit that we did in the past.

00:59:31.90
Mike
Yes. Yeah.

00:59:32.71
Bill
Yeah.

00:59:32.86
Mike
Right.

00:59:33.59
Heather
Oh, for sure. For sure. I mean, I know you guys have said it. i know I've heard it at some point in one of your one of your episodes. I did listen to a few, um you know, that...

00:59:45.02
Heather
everybody would be better off. of

00:59:47.48
Mike
yes

00:59:47.66
Bill
Right.

00:59:47.77
Heather
Everybody would be better off working some kind of program.

00:59:47.84
Bill
Right.

00:59:50.55
Mike
yeah

00:59:50.60
Heather
And it's, you know, I recognized early on, like I'd hear him saying stuff and it's right out of the big book. You know, he's not reading the big book, but I know where it's coming from because that's, you know, that's what he's hearing.

00:59:55.85
Bill
wow.

00:59:58.65
Mike
right

01:00:02.38
Heather
And, you know, things Things got better. Things got better.

01:00:07.38
Mike
Yeah.

01:00:07.48
Heather
You know, early on, like I said, it was a struggle. At one point, I think we had 24 hours a week of therapeutic services on top of school.

01:00:15.45
Bill
ah wow okay

01:00:18.04
Heather
So, yeah, it was it was a little intense there for a while.

01:00:19.12
Mike
Yeah. Right. Yeah.

01:00:22.48
Heather
you know, eventually things settled and, you know, life life got better. and And that kind of brings us to, you know, where we are today.

01:00:34.30
Mike
Mm hmm.

01:00:34.62
Heather
which is cool, which is a cool full circle moment.

01:00:35.09
Bill
Right.

01:00:36.28
Mike
Yes.

01:00:37.57
Heather
Because if you, if you recall, I mentioned that I thought I was going to have to choose between travel and being a mom, because those things couldn't possibly go together.

01:00:42.58
Mike
Mm hmm.

01:00:44.45
Bill
Right. right

01:00:46.49
Mike
Ah. Right.

01:00:50.30
Mike
right

01:00:51.86
Heather
and and here we are, here we are. I am flabbergasted at the gifts um that I have been given as a result of this life we leave. You know, i'm I am debt free, except my mortgage, you know, and that's that's a pretty cool thing. Like last year, i got to take i had to take Zion to a car dealership, fully prepared to pay cash, like to walk in ready to pay cash for a car.

01:01:22.71
Heather
but Like to get to do that as as a woman, I mean, in general, going into a car dealership is freaking scary.

01:01:25.62
Mike
Right.

01:01:28.71
Heather
But to to to have done the research and to know exactly what I want, what kind of deal I could get, what kind of financing I could get in front of my son, like I made him come with me so he could see like

01:01:29.34
Bill
ha

01:01:36.11
Mike
Right.

01:01:39.81
Mike
Right.

01:01:41.03
Heather
It's one of the proudest moments of my life because I felt like a boss. I felt like a boss walking into that dealership.

01:01:46.58
Mike
oh ah

01:01:47.88
Heather
You know, I had saved and, you know, cleaned up the wreckage.

01:01:48.26
Bill
Right.

01:01:51.32
Heather
And, you know, now i am on this... you know, hell-bent path to retire by the time he graduates, at least semi-retire slash not have to not have to work a desk job.

01:02:03.88
Heather
This is where, you know, we get to what Bill's doing.

01:02:04.41
Bill
Right.

01:02:06.90
Heather
ah um Yeah, so it's it's been ah it's been an adventure because um I would say, what, maybe...

01:02:07.09
Mike
Mm-hmm.

01:02:07.42
Bill
Well, I've not done anything special yet.

01:02:20.18
Heather
Oh, our first trip was to celebrate our first year together. And it was a ah Disney cruise. And that was amazing. And we've we've been on many, many, many adventures since. We usually take about three big trips a year. um And now, like I said, now i've I've got this financial goal in my mind.

01:02:42.62
Heather
um And in order to achieve that goal, like I'm doing all this extra stuff. um so that i can maintain my goal of you know the the house being paid off and not having to work a full-time job by 2031.

01:02:56.50
Heather
um but i still want to be able to take my trips i still need to be able to take my trips so you know we're doing extra things and um one of those is that you know last year return to office was announced and it you know

01:02:59.35
Mike
Right.

01:03:00.01
Bill
Right.

01:03:14.07
Heather
with the fear of God in me. And I kind of threw everything against the wall from, you know, trying to get back into dog training to taking a real estate course, a publish your own thing course, ah you know, everything under the sun before I finally landed on, I want to do something with travel.

01:03:31.67
Mike
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

01:03:31.83
Bill
Right.

01:03:32.66
Heather
It, it scratches that, that itch. So there's actually a gene, the Wanderlust gene, which is,

01:03:43.29
Heather
are you guys Do you guys know what I'm talking about?

01:03:45.88
Bill
I mean, I know what Wanderlust is. I've never heard of the gene involved with it.

01:03:49.27
Heather
There is an actual gene.

01:03:49.82
Bill
Yeah.

01:03:51.23
Heather
It is, I don't know the the scientific name of it, but there is a gene. It's tied to ADHD. It's tied to addiction. um it's It's basically that the restless, irritable discontent, but hashtag, this is part of why you wander.

01:04:03.32
Mike
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

01:04:06.96
Heather
It's part of why, you know, at eight years old, I needed to constantly escape the books. You know, I have this this itch and, you know, getting sober didn't make it go away.

01:04:13.82
Mike
Mm-hmm.

01:04:16.28
Heather
I constantly want to be wandering and needing needing new things. So that's, you know, the direction I kind of decided to go last year with launching Wandering Weightlessly, um which is sort of my all-encompassing weightless in definition of whether it is financial things that are holding you down, whether it is mobility issues or accessibility issues, or you know you're a foster parent trying to travel and whatever it is that's holding you down. That's that's my weightless component to it.

01:04:58.58
Heather
um you know And obviously sober travel.

01:05:01.69
Mike
Right.

01:05:01.77
Bill
Right.

01:05:02.01
Heather
So um bat's that's what we decided to go with last April.

01:05:12.79
Heather
um

01:05:13.14
Mike
Cool. So, yeah. So, I mean, you've you've got a website now, right?

01:05:14.55
Heather
Yeah.

01:05:17.43
Mike
you are you You're starting to plan other people's vacations. Is that what's going on?

01:05:23.32
Heather
Yes. Yes. So last year, um like I said, i came I came to the decision in April that this was what I wanted to do and launched the website in April. And last year was kind of just spent Learning. um You know, trained dogs for over 20 years and I know how to do that. I know how to do that in my sleep. This is this is all new. And not only is it all new, but it's different for every every vendor.

01:05:49.08
Heather
So it's like, you know, booking a hotel is not the same as booking a cruise or a flight or any of that stuff.

01:05:53.88
Bill
Bye.

01:05:55.53
Heather
So...

01:05:55.84
Mike
Mm-hmm.

01:05:56.57
Heather
Everything is is new. So a lot of last year was just spent getting some initial certifications, um you know, registering with the cruise line agency, taking a bunch of cruise courses because that to me felt like the easiest path forward.

01:06:13.82
Heather
um And then that kind of took up most of last year and brought me to this year where I feel like I've kind of now I've got I've got the website up and running. I've started you know publishing some some content on the blog.

01:06:26.16
Mike
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

01:06:26.62
Heather
and have um launched Suitcases and Sobriety, which is Facebook group where I am trying to connect and inspire other sober or sober curious travelers.

01:06:42.40
Heather
So, know, it's a place for people to, you know, get inspired, share their victories, share their fears, maybe get some tips or advice. I'm also planning trips got some sober cruises lined up where I'm organizing, you know, groups of sober people that might, you know, you might not think, oh, sober and cruising because, you know, there's, there's a reputation for that or sober and all inclusive.

01:07:06.13
Mike
Right.

01:07:10.12
Heather
Like I loved my time at the all inclusive in Mexico. It was amazing. um

01:07:15.03
Bill
Right.

01:07:15.74
Heather
And it had nothing to, there was, there was no drinking going on, but it was still, yeah it was, it was an amazing time.

01:07:18.68
Mike
Right. Yep. Absolutely.

01:07:22.10
Heather
and And that's kind of what I'm trying to do now is is helping people, um you know, face those barriers and let go of those weights, you know, whatever it is that's holding them back so that they can wander and explore fearlessly. And, you know, because this is this is just an incredible, I feel very blessed.

01:07:45.19
Mike
Mm-hmm.

01:07:45.29
Heather
I feel very blessed.

01:07:46.52
Bill
Have you ever, and we've we've talked about it and I know posted about it quite a bit, but um have you ever heard of the the website, The Sober Curator?

01:07:54.77
Heather
I peaked on it after you guys had had mentioned, like I i tried to to do a little bit of research on not just sober, not mature, but like how how you guys got how you guys got where you're going.

01:08:12.18
Heather
Because I mean, you're four years ahead of me.

01:08:12.98
Mike
he

01:08:14.58
Heather
You're doing what I'm trying to do. Yeah.

01:08:16.98
Bill
Well, and we can tell you that our story is simple. We can get into that in a second. But the reason I mentioned the Sober Curator, there's kind of like two pieces to it.

01:08:24.19
Mike
Mm-hmm.

01:08:25.51
Bill
First of all, there are few people, I think two or three that I know for sure, already on the Sober Curator that are sober curators involved in the site that do travel and sober travel and things like that.

01:08:30.72
Mike
Mm-hmm.

01:08:38.32
Bill
So first of all, creep on there. And as my daughter says, creep on that website, to get ideas and what people are doing because they're writing about these things.

01:08:44.05
Heather
Yeah.

01:08:48.39
Heather
Yeah.

01:08:48.58
Bill
And it's free content and all that sort of things. But the website also is catered to living a sober lifestyle. So you might get other ideas on amenities or things like that that you could add to your trips.

01:09:01.44
Bill
And I'll be honest with you, when it comes to Mike and I, there's only a certain – it's more female-centric than male-centric.

01:09:01.97
Heather
yeah

01:09:08.13
Bill
Right, Mike?

01:09:08.34
Mike
Right?

01:09:08.49
Bill
Yeah.

01:09:08.62
Mike
Oh yeah.

01:09:08.90
Heather
Yeah.

01:09:09.11
Bill
um For the most part, you know, and and that's fine.

01:09:10.55
Mike
and

01:09:11.87
Bill
There's nothing wrong with that, you know, but um I think that you'll you would enjoy getting in there and diving in there and reading some of the articles more than we would because they are focused more towards the female side of things.

01:09:12.04
Heather
Yeah.

01:09:22.85
Bill
But I just think that in general, that could be a thing. But here's the other thing is that, um you know, we're sober curators, which means that we contribute content and all those sort of things.

01:09:26.20
Heather
yeah

01:09:32.49
Bill
And we hooked up with the sober curator. Kind of on a whim, we made a joke and we called her out on social media and then we got involved with her.

01:09:38.37
Mike
Hehehehehehehehe.

01:09:40.08
Bill
I could tell that story quick if you want in a second. But um they're not taking on any new curators as far as like so writing for the website. But every once in a while, she takes outside content.

01:09:51.26
Bill
But worst case scenario, I think that the website would be a wonderful resource for what you're doing. Because if you're not stealing and and gaining other people's ideas, seeing what other people are doing, you know, you're you're putting yourself as a disadvantage.

01:09:58.37
Heather
huh

01:10:05.62
Bill
And there are people on there right now doing along the lines in the same lane of what you're doing. So it'd be a great place for that.

01:10:11.67
Heather
huh

01:10:12.65
Bill
But as far as what, what we are doing and how we got to where we are, we were just talking about that.

01:10:12.76
Heather
Yeah.

01:10:17.02
Mike
hey

01:10:18.01
Bill
We hit our four year anniversary for this podcast at the end of February. And Mike explains the best. And as he did in episode 26, when we started doing this, right, Mike, what did we do?

01:10:27.58
Mike
Right. We shot our wad into the wind and see what happens.

01:10:31.32
Bill
And that's.

01:10:32.06
Heather
Yeah, congrats. I hear 90% of podcasts don't survive the first year, right?

01:10:35.86
Bill
Yeah. Yeah.

01:10:37.66
Heather
I mean, is that what Ryan, Ryan, Phila, San Phila, whatever?

01:10:37.88
Bill
Yeah.

01:10:41.66
Heather
Right.

01:10:42.10
Bill
Oh, yeah, San Felipe. Yeah, i forget I forgot his name too.

01:10:43.99
Mike
see

01:10:44.50
Heather
yeah

01:10:44.70
Bill
But yeah, I i called i called that motherfucker out because, yeah, he pissed both of us off. We're like, well, fuck it. Now we got to at least a year.

01:10:51.96
Mike
Right. Well, yeah, well, spite. I mean, I believe you talked quite a bit about spite your story there, Heather.

01:10:59.16
Bill
Yeah. Yeah. and And I mean, now it's just been it's just been a matter of, you know, we just we're doing this. This whole podcast thing has has morphed into 100 percent exactly whatever the fuck we want it to be.

01:11:10.20
Heather
Yeah.

01:11:11.82
Bill
And that's the coolest part about what we do.

01:11:11.98
Mike
Mm-hmm.

01:11:14.98
Bill
And the fact that we were in, I mean, this in all seriousness, when Mike and I, you know, when I because I held it, you know, for like three days when I found out that we were nominated so I could bring it up on a on an episode.

01:11:25.67
Bill
Well, we sat there and talked about it. Neither one of us really knew how to describe how we felt because it was just we didn't we haven't done anything.

01:11:29.62
Mike
a

01:11:32.27
Bill
We didn't try. We didn't try. at all, let alone try hard to to be, um I don't even know, to be attractive to enough to be um nominated, you know?

01:11:42.26
Mike
Right.

01:11:42.42
Bill
And I mean, attractive to the podcast community.

01:11:42.58
Heather
Yeah. Mm-hmm.

01:11:44.82
Bill
But the thing of it is, in everything that we were told, we just started, literally, the reason that Mike's lied about, you know, shooting our wad into the wind is so it's so perfect, because that's exactly what we did.

01:11:55.38
Bill
We started doing the things that we were doing, and then afterwards, they're like, oh, you should have done you should have banged three to five episodes to start out with. That's how you grab your audience. Well, we didn't do that. You know, you should we shouldn't go longer than 20 minutes to begin with.

01:12:08.01
Bill
We went an hour and then we started going an hour and a half because with, our at that point we're like, fuck everyone.

01:12:09.24
Heather
Yeah.

01:12:09.29
Mike
Right.

01:12:12.73
Bill
We're going to talk as much as we fucking want.

01:12:13.98
Heather
Yeah. Yeah.

01:12:15.32
Bill
Um, You know, no but not not a lot of people, when we not that we were the pioneers of it, but there there weren't a lot of people that were going longer form. And I'm starting to see some of these other podcasts going long form.

01:12:22.87
Heather
yeah

01:12:25.38
Bill
We did one video episode and we hated it. Really, the only reason that we did it is because the the recording studio we had at that point

01:12:28.45
Mike
hmm.

01:12:33.05
Bill
we were We would have had the capability to do live stream, kind of take call-ins like a radio station, which would have been really fucking cool, you know, to do that sort of thing.

01:12:37.97
Heather
yeah Yeah.

01:12:39.97
Mike
Mm hmm.

01:12:40.12
Heather
Yeah.

01:12:41.59
Bill
But you had to be, you had to be, to be live, you had to be through YouTube and you had to be video. That's why, that's why we tested it. And then it was just so fucking uncomfortable. We never did it again.

01:12:51.87
Mike
Yep.

01:12:52.55
Bill
you know And then all these other people are going to these video podcasts and we're not.

01:12:52.76
Heather
yeah

01:12:56.67
Bill
you know um And then so all these different things. It was funny. I was on a was on the monthly meeting, Mike, for the Sober Curator. And Tamar was talking about a couple of things.

01:13:04.04
Mike
Right.

01:13:06.32
Bill
and Because these meetings are basically like Elise gives a bunch of updates. And they talk about this. And that was Tamar's piece. And then they go in individual with the curators kind of saying what what's up sort of thing. So we were brought up twice before I had a chance to speak.

01:13:18.56
Bill
Elise brought us up. And then Tamar brought us up. because Tamar's Tamar and Mike knows who this says is. It's one of the people from the sober curator, but she's like, she's the one that's the editor and all that stuff in the sober curator podcast.

01:13:29.63
Bill
So she does a lot of fucking work on it. I mean a lot.

01:13:32.24
Mike
Yeah.

01:13:32.55
Bill
And, and she's like, you know, or you could just do what, do what Bill and Mike are doing. And she's like, just being, being immature and do whatever get nominated.

01:13:40.31
Mike
he

01:13:41.54
Bill
And I'm like, yeah, I'm like, i said, I'm like,

01:13:41.65
Heather
alated double like yeah No.

01:13:43.96
Bill
I said, when i when I got there to talk, seriously, Mike, I said this, I'm like, like I know what Tamara said.

01:13:44.54
Heather
what i i

01:13:48.20
Bill
She's kind of joking about it, but she's, I mean, 100% correct. I said, if if you want if you want us to teach you what to do, and I was telling this on the and the meeting, I'm like, we don't do anything we're supposed to do.

01:13:51.13
Mike
Yep.

01:13:51.64
Heather
yeah yeah

01:13:58.02
Bill
And I just listed off all these different things. And I said, yeah, we still got fucking nominated. So so there. um But...

01:14:04.31
Heather
yeah

01:14:04.97
Mike
Yep.

01:14:05.34
Bill
So, um, so whatever we're doing was, and we're not making any money at this podcasting thing or anything like that. So my point is we, we do this because it's fun and because we know it helps people in turn. Plus we get to have cool conversations with our friends like you and other people.

01:14:19.26
Bill
Um, but don't follow what we do if you want to make money or have a life, you know, have some sort of, this is not a, this is not a professional line unless some, somehow somebody knocks on their door and pulls up a truck full of fucking money.

01:14:19.44
Mike
Mm-hmm.

01:14:22.49
Mike
Right.

01:14:23.59
Heather
Yeah. Yeah.

01:14:30.19
Bill
Then that's a different story, but I'm looking out the window and I don't see anyone in the driveway yet, you know?

01:14:32.02
Heather
yeah

01:14:34.36
Mike
Now there's nobody here either.

01:14:34.75
Bill
So. I was just going to ask Michael, take a look outside just in case.

01:14:36.28
Heather
ah

01:14:39.18
Bill
Maybe they get...

01:14:39.44
Mike
I'm sitting right by a window. There's nothing going on.

01:14:41.94
Bill
Okay, so, you know...

01:14:41.96
Mike
Wait, no, a garbage truck just drove by literally.

01:14:45.06
Bill
That's, that's, that sounds about right. Yeah. Somebody dumps garbage in, in the driveway.

01:14:47.29
Mike
he

01:14:48.94
Bill
That's us. But you know, the, the thing that is Heather in with, with what you're doing and for what it sounds like, from what you had said, so you want to be within whatever it is a handful of years to be able to, you know, obviously shrink out your day job and do this, do your travel.

01:15:02.98
Bill
And then obviously, you know, make money at it and then not have to be again, shackled to a, to a desk.

01:15:03.87
Heather
Mm-hmm.

01:15:08.26
Bill
Right.

01:15:09.37
Heather
Yeah. Yeah. That is, that is the end game goal. Like I think, cause I'm still genuinely trying to figure out like right now I feel like my hand is in too many cookie jars. So I'm, I'm trying to really hone in on what, what do I want to be doing here?

01:15:18.45
Bill
Right.

01:15:22.85
Heather
Do I want to be retreat planning? Cause I know I don't want to be like a, I know I don't want to be a normal travel agent. That's, that's not what I'm doing.

01:15:29.24
Mike
Right.

01:15:30.71
Heather
I know I don't want to go into sober coaching. um That's, that's not what I'm doing, but yeah,

01:15:39.32
Heather
I yeah i'm I'm trying to figure it out I I'm trying to figure out where I want to be but right now I'm I'm just doing the if you build that they will come and and I feel like I am grinding out you know these articles and I'm posting on things that I think I would like to I don't know the last one like I just I

01:15:39.57
Mike
Yeah. Yeah.

01:15:43.64
Mike
yeah

01:16:01.46
Mike
Yeah.

01:16:02.45
Bill
That's no, that's what you have to do.

01:16:04.12
Heather
I just posted on why Bermuda was a fricking nightmare.

01:16:04.29
Bill
Yeah.

01:16:07.00
Heather
Like I had, I scheduled this right off of a trip thinking I was going to be on this high when I talked to you guys um coming back from, ah from a trip that should have been amazing.

01:16:14.00
Mike
Yeah.

01:16:17.37
Heather
And on Monday, like I was in tears, like, Oh my God, like I have this opportunity and this trip was a fricking disaster. Like it was a nightmare start to finish.

01:16:24.21
Mike
Mm-hmm.

01:16:25.85
Heather
And yeah, you know i ended up having to like kind of try to write through, what do I need to tell myself to get the heck over this? Because this it was just a series of bad things.

01:16:35.31
Mike
Mm-hmm.

01:16:37.62
Heather
and And lo and behold, I got my first comment on on a blog post. And like I don't know.

01:16:43.59
Mike
Mm-hmm.

01:16:46.71
Heather
I mean, you guys you guys say shoot your wad. I'm not shooting wads, but I feel like I'm just talking into a void.

01:16:52.12
Mike
he

01:16:55.62
Heather
and you're putting this stuff out there. And so when somebody does say, hey, what you wrote helped me and it made me, you know, it made me like that one freaking comment, like i I started crying.

01:17:07.40
Heather
I'm like, oh my God. Oh, that was really loud.

01:17:09.46
Mike
right.

01:17:09.50
Bill
hey

01:17:10.15
Heather
I'm sorry.

01:17:10.33
Mike
Yes. Right.

01:17:10.63
Heather
But it was so exciting. Like, you know, and oh, I've picked up, you know, a few a few followers and a few, you know, you know, a few people have asked to join the the sobriety group.

01:17:12.47
Mike
yes

01:17:21.81
Heather
And it's like, okay, like I i do believe that if I build something, You know, the whole point is just start it now so that by the time 2031 rolls around, you know, I'm giving myself the time to do this and building the content and, um you know, writing about what what I'd want to know.

01:17:30.81
Mike
right

01:17:42.64
Heather
And, you know, and this week it just happened to be, you know, what do you do to recover from a trip that was you worked really hard for? It was really expensive. And it was it was a freaking disaster.

01:17:50.31
Mike
Yeah.

01:17:53.91
Heather
It was bad.

01:17:53.97
Bill
Right.

01:17:55.46
Heather
So.

01:17:55.49
Bill
Well, you know, the the one thing, the one thing and in two two things you said, first of all, writing about the things that you think, you know, that you'd want to read, I think is wonderful. and That's one of the things we we ended up doing that again accidentally, just talking about shit that that we enjoy.

01:18:04.10
Mike
Mm-hmm.

01:18:07.51
Heather
Yeah.

01:18:08.74
Bill
And then it caught on to other people. But the one thing that we didn't necessarily. Well, we didn't step into this being like with a list of anything. But I was just saying one thing that we never really thought about was being authentic.

01:18:16.11
Mike
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

01:18:19.90
Bill
I mean, we we know about honesty and openness and all those sort of things. We know about, you know, not not trying to blow smoke up people's asses, but we never really thought about, you know, authenticity helps versus, you know, just, you know, painting this rosy picture.

01:18:33.34
Heather
Yeah.

01:18:33.84
Bill
So we we talk about all different things just because that's what we do.

01:18:34.42
Heather
Uh huh.

01:18:38.00
Bill
But that's the comments that we've gotten have been, not all of them, but a few of them have been pointed towards that. Right. Mike, I mean, being the people like, you know, you guys just talk about like, I think the word authentic or authenticity was brought up and that sort of thing.

01:18:44.85
Heather
Yeah.

01:18:51.04
Bill
So talking about a trip that went to shit, you know, is beautiful because here's the thing that everyone talks about social media, you know, being all it is, it's a, it's somebody's highlight reel and it's the best highlight reel.

01:19:01.65
Heather
Yep.

01:19:03.30
Bill
And that's, that's all that it is, including what, what, well, I mean, we post a lot of garbage too, but, um,

01:19:03.33
Heather
Mm-hmm. huh

01:19:09.50
Bill
I mean, like when i when I post, I post a lot of things about, you know, hiking stuff. If I if i end up having a bad day or something, which which doesn't really happen, I don't believe in bad days. But if I went on like a shitty trail, I might just post only a couple of pictures that I'll put there.

01:19:23.98
Bill
i'm like, damn, this trail really wasn't what it was cut out to be, um you know, that sort of thing. But I mean, I'm just posting pictures for, I'm posting it for myself, things that I might want to look at. And, you know, maybe other people in Mike, Mike is the one that said that to me because other people could actually live almost vicariously through your pictures.

01:19:40.03
Mike
Mm-hmm.

01:19:40.28
Bill
And I'm like, well, that's kind of cool.

01:19:40.72
Heather
Yep.

01:19:42.08
Bill
You know, and I never thought about that.

01:19:42.55
Heather
Mm-hmm.

01:19:43.76
Bill
You know, i'm just I'm just posting shit that I'm looking at.

01:19:43.83
Heather
Yeah.

01:19:45.80
Bill
I'm like, this is really fucking beautiful. But even the picture doesn't even do it justice. So I think you doing what you're doing and just being you and not necessarily trying to glamorize everything because everyone's doing that already.

01:19:50.42
Heather
Yeah.

01:19:57.98
Bill
um

01:19:58.20
Heather
right

01:19:59.22
Bill
But so you mentioned retreats too. Again, I go back to the Sober Curator. There's people doing those retreats. There's a, um if you look on Instagram, are you on Instagram? Okay, i be before we get done here, i'll if you don't mind, I'll use that in your in the description stuff, all all that stuff, but I'll get your Instagram handle so we can tag you on stuff.

01:20:19.92
Bill
But so Instagram or Facebook or whatever, look up Recovery Elevator.

01:20:20.29
Heather
Sure.

01:20:25.75
Bill
Or R.E.

01:20:25.84
Heather
OK.

01:20:26.47
Bill
I don't know if you've ever heard of that before. um I don't know the guy from it. He's out and they're out in Montana or Wyoming or some fucking place like that. But they've been around like for fucking ever. they They do a podcast.

01:20:35.99
Heather
hu

01:20:36.58
Bill
They got a group, but they do a lot of retreats. So, you know, these are things that, you know, just look for shit like that. There's a lot of people doing these things that are doing these sober retreats.

01:20:43.10
Heather
Yeah.

01:20:46.68
Bill
If you look on the Sober Curator Lookup, Megan, her name is Megan. We we had her on our podcast about three, four months ago. um She's also doing sober retreats.

01:20:54.25
Mike
Mm-hmm.

01:20:56.50
Bill
You know, so there's there's a lot of people out there, um women and men in groups that are doing these things that I think you could, you know, you could gleam from and learn from. You know what i mean

01:21:05.91
Heather
Yeah.

01:21:06.20
Bill
So.

01:21:08.38
Heather
For sure.

01:21:08.47
Bill
Yeah, there's a there's just a ton of that stuff out there.

01:21:08.87
Heather
Yeah.

01:21:10.59
Bill
But you just got to... I run across this shit just... sometimes just it It's just like like, oh, okay, more sober people doing these things, which, again, is cool stuff, you know? But I don't know a lot of these people, but I see all this stuff being done, so...

01:21:24.69
Mike
It's out there.

01:21:25.66
Bill
It is.

01:21:25.69
Mike
Yeah. and And, you know, and and I'm going to go back to your horrible trip that you just got back from. um Yeah. So, yes, it was bad, but you learned, right?

01:21:36.48
Mike
You you gained knowledge of, yeah, exactly.

01:21:36.87
Bill
Right.

01:21:37.53
Heather
Yeah. and that

01:21:39.80
Mike
Where where did we learn that from? Yeah.

01:21:42.20
Heather
Yeah, exactly.

01:21:42.81
Mike
Mm-hmm. Right.

01:21:43.48
Heather
And that was that was kind of the gist. is I mean, because the the goal here is, obviously, I'm trying to sell travel.

01:21:46.17
Mike
yeah

01:21:50.65
Mike
is he

01:21:50.69
Heather
that's That's the game. So coming back from this and being like, I mean, I went in there with a bunch of different outfits. I had a content. You know, I had i had plans and schemes.

01:22:02.31
Heather
And by day three of this trip, I was like, I don't want to do any of this.

01:22:02.66
Mike
Mm hmm.

01:22:02.97
Bill
Hehehehe.

01:22:06.55
Heather
And like, I stopped.

01:22:06.84
Mike
Right.

01:22:08.03
Heather
I stopped. taking pictures. I didn't want to do any of it. And then I came home and I was like, oh, Jesus, you know, I'm I'm supposed to be trying to sell travel.

01:22:20.07
Mike
hmm.

01:22:20.92
Heather
And how do you how do you do that after after this? And it was like, well, yeah, I paid what you know what I ended up calling it was you know was tuition.

01:22:25.47
Mike
Right.

01:22:29.98
Heather
it's not you know That wasn't money that was wasted.

01:22:30.51
Mike
Mm hmm.

01:22:32.74
Heather
That was money that was spent learning a lesson.

01:22:33.02
Mike
Right. Mm-hmm.

01:22:35.22
Heather
you know I learned that Bermuda is not the kind of place you can just freaking wing it if you have if you have mobility issues or if you're trying to be on a budget.

01:22:43.10
Mike
Right. Mm-hmm.

01:22:44.36
Heather
It was... It was expensive. It was not, you know, like on on the Alaska cruise we went on last summer, I had no plans and everything worked out beautifully.

01:22:50.83
Mike
Mm-hmm.

01:22:53.96
Heather
It was it was incredible. And I went into Bermuda with no plans and it was, it it did not, it did not go well. Like we got dropped off of the bus ride from hell at the top of a, you know, third mile hill.

01:23:09.08
Heather
to get down to a beach that was supposed to be accessible. You know, when I go on these trips, I use ah a rollator, which is like ah a walker. And we literally got dropped off at the top of this fricking hill.

01:23:20.40
Heather
I'm like, oh oh my God, oh my God.

01:23:22.51
Mike
Uh-huh.

01:23:23.90
Heather
It looked like a mile downhill. And I'm like, and i and that wasn't even the beach yet. So...

01:23:28.95
Mike
Right.

01:23:29.17
Bill
Right.

01:23:29.72
Heather
Oh my goodness. Yeah.

01:23:31.29
Mike
yeah

01:23:31.32
Heather
So, it you know, it was ah it was a lot of lessons learned. So it was definitely none of it was wasted.

01:23:36.73
Mike
right

01:23:36.89
Heather
It's all experience. And, you know, and that's what I chose to write about.

01:23:39.14
Mike
Mm hmm.

01:23:41.13
Heather
Like, I didn't want to come back and be like, here's, I think I literally captioned it like this. this I'm not coming back with a highlight reel. I'm coming back with a reality check. Like this, this trip went wrong.

01:23:49.47
Mike
Yep.

01:23:51.26
Heather
And this is how I'm going to let it go and move on and and learn from this experience.

01:23:54.83
Mike
Mm hmm.

01:23:55.94
Heather
And, You know, now you don't now you know, don't don't do the bus.

01:24:00.34
Mike
Right.

01:24:00.76
Heather
but Do this instead.

01:24:00.85
Bill
hey Right. Well, mean, but that's that's exactly what you can provide to people now. And I had I mean, thankfully, I've only had one bad Airbnb trip, but um I did the same thing.

01:24:11.18
Bill
I wrote about it. I'm like this. This one went this one went to complete shit.

01:24:12.60
Heather
yeah I read that.

01:24:14.62
Bill
Yeah, it was it yeah i was in the book.

01:24:14.81
Heather
I read your book.

01:24:15.78
Bill
Yeah, it was in the book.

01:24:16.50
Heather
but but

01:24:17.05
Bill
um You know, and I was like, i was like, I have to talk, talk about this one because it was just, it was such a, I, I was just sitting there.

01:24:20.57
Heather
yeah

01:24:24.39
Bill
I'm like, this can't even be fucking happening, you know?

01:24:26.62
Heather
Yeah. Yeah.

01:24:26.95
Bill
um But it did. And, you know, it hasn't happened yet since, but I I've learned everything I've learned along the way to the, to the point where, I mean, i carry toilet paper with me. I carry paper towel with me.

01:24:37.83
Bill
um I have a can opener with me. I now have a a small coffee pot with me. You know, these sort of things that, you know, if I show up someplace it doesn't that doesn't have these little things, I know i have all the comforts ah of of home for me, you know, and I um i bring a along, you know,

01:24:51.13
Heather
yeah

01:24:54.49
Bill
Three or four extension cords, because you never know. I now have three different Ethernet cords, 150 foot and 200 foot cords. I've got all these different things that I carry with me that I don't necessarily use.

01:25:04.34
Heather
Yeah.

01:25:06.45
Bill
But what if I need one, you know?

01:25:08.73
Heather
Right.

01:25:08.94
Mike
Mm-hmm.

01:25:09.43
Bill
And, you know, these are things that, because, I mean, Kathy and I are looking at at actually, um you know, getting into this whole hosting thing.

01:25:09.85
Heather
Yeah.

01:25:15.11
Bill
So now as ah as a traveler, i hope that that's going to help, you know, from, from a hosting standpoint, I should know, I should know better than I did a couple of years ago, you know, what some other traveler would want.

01:25:28.27
Bill
Cause I've done it and you're doing the same thing.

01:25:29.69
Heather
There you go.

01:25:30.62
Bill
You're not just planning trips for people. You're taking trips and you're, you're, you know, like we had a guy on a few, couple of months ago, talked about boots on the ground, right? And so that's what you've got. You've got your you got your feet on the ground.

01:25:42.28
Bill
You're out there doing shit. And you can come back and say, okay, maybe the trip was hellish, but this is what I can this is why i can pass along with you when I'm helping you. um you know i've I've lived this before, so here's what you can do, you know which is wonderful.

01:25:53.66
Heather
Yeah. 100%. hundred percent Yeah, i would I would feel horrible if i if I had sent someone who had, you know, mobility issues and and sent them to this, the most accessible beach in Bermuda, and they ended up experiencing like that.

01:25:57.52
Bill
Yeah.

01:26:00.54
Bill
Right. Right.

01:26:09.02
Heather
that it It was a freaking nightmare. Like, oh my goodness.

01:26:11.51
Bill
Right.

01:26:12.66
Heather
So, ah Yeah.

01:26:16.47
Bill
So what's what's your your kind of like, and I don't know, your next movement, your next step, your next plan? you know what Where does it go from here? And I guess how can how can we help if if there's anything that we can do? or Or how can anyone else out there that might be listening to us help?

01:26:31.74
Heather
Well, yeah, um you can definitely, you know, if you are um looking to get connected with other sober, sober curious travelers, we've got the the group on Facebook, Suitcases and Sobriety. um If you're ready for your next, you know, sober adventure and you're you're ready to book or you need some help or you've got questions, I'm happy to help you with trip planning you know i don't don't just do cruises we have been all over the place you know last spring break we went to paris and that that was insane like i literally in november before we went two november's ago And I had asked Zion, like, if you could go anywhere in the world, where would you want to go?

01:27:04.92
Bill
nice

01:27:15.61
Heather
um And he said, Paris. And I was like, that that is just not going to happen. Like, that is too expensive. And it's a trip for another time. And there's just no way we could do it. You know, and then lo and behold, I found out some credit card points, moved some supper on, then bingo. We were...

01:27:29.34
Heather
We were in Paris, which when I look at those pictures, I still tear up because I just can't believe that this life is even possible. So, you know, that's that's what I'm trying to do is help other people, whether it's the financial hurdle, the mobility issues, ah trauma from, you know, trying to travel with foster kids.

01:27:38.70
Bill
Right.

01:27:47.58
Mike
Mm-hmm.

01:27:51.19
Heather
There's a lot of logistics with that. yeah. that's what i'm That's what I'm trying to do. So you can you know connect me on Facebook. You can visit my website, wanderingweightlessly.com.

01:28:04.38
Heather
I'm on Facebook. um not as I'm just starting to get the hang with Instagram. i haven't I'm trying to tackle one platform at a time. Right?

01:28:14.73
Bill
Sure.

01:28:15.61
Heather
Probably digging my own grave here, but yeah. Yeah. So I haven't been as active on Instagram, but I'm on, I'm on Facebook wandering weightlessly, got suitcases and sobriety, join the group, get involved with the conversation and yeah. Yeah.

01:28:31.45
Bill
So do you, do you want people to, I mean, do you even want to put, or me to put anything like with Instagram on here for now or no, or just leave it, leave it be the Facebook and the website are better. Cause I mean, you can end up having a link to your Instagram on there once you get more active on your website.

01:28:45.60
Bill
I mean, if that's easier for you.

01:28:46.30
Heather
Yeah, yeah, yeah, ah yeah.

01:28:47.42
Bill
Okay. That's fine. Okay.

01:28:49.94
Heather
Website and and and Facebook is where, you know, I'm primarily focusing on now. Like, I know that Facebook publishes to both, um but I'm not generating, like, I'm not writing stuff on Instagram.

01:28:57.22
Bill
Right.

01:28:57.26
Mike
Right.

01:29:04.22
Heather
Like, I know it's just getting sent there. i don't even know what it looks like. Oy, oy, oy.

01:29:08.79
Bill
Well, here's, I'm going to give you just a ah little bit of, if nothing else, this this is clearly not even advice, just experience from what from what I've learned from Instagram.

01:29:16.15
Heather
Yeah.

01:29:17.62
Bill
And I do it the other way around. I went on Instagram to to begin with because I wanted to, i to begin with it, posted anonymously on there, trying to just, you know, get more, you know, kind of like a sober, you know, check out the whole sober Instagram thing, you know.

01:29:32.23
Bill
And then it was shortly after that, within a month when we started our podcast.

01:29:32.56
Heather
Yeah.

01:29:35.59
Bill
So that that's what we did, the sober, not mature thing. And I've done obviously other things on there.

01:29:38.36
Heather
Yeah.

01:29:40.21
Bill
But I mean, my my opinion with it, and to begin with, I was extremely active and trying to keep up with everyone and doing all this different shit.

01:29:46.25
Heather
Mm-hmm.

01:29:48.70
Bill
And we don't have a lot of, you know, we don't have, you know, hundreds of thousands of followers or anything like that. um I do post a lot, but now i post I post in a rhythm on a daily basis. And I think that's, I think my opinion is that's important.

01:30:02.71
Bill
You know, for whatever type of business or activity you're doing in whatever platform is just be be consistent and you don't necessarily have to post a lot. Just do it at the same times in the same type of content and on a daily basis or whatever you do it.

01:30:15.87
Bill
And, you know, people like you said, you know, you build it and people will come. But the cross-posting part of it, yeah, take advantage of that.

01:30:19.96
Heather
Yeah. Yeah.

01:30:23.63
Bill
It wouldn't hurt ah you know to take a look at how it's coming up on Instagram. But if it looks good on Facebook, it's probably coming up fine on Instagram and vice versa. So I post on Instagram and it dumps onto our Facebook page.

01:30:35.64
Bill
I virtually do nothing on there. Michael posts on our Sober Not Mature Facebook page every once in a while. um I mean, i I'll say monitor.

01:30:41.85
Mike
Mm-hmm.

01:30:44.16
Bill
i I view it every once in a while on a daily basis just to see if people are reacting to stuff on our Facebook page, but I don't post anything on there.

01:30:50.83
Heather
Yeah.

01:30:52.74
Bill
um I just do everything on on Instagram.

01:30:52.86
Heather
Yeah.

01:30:55.18
Bill
You know, so one way or the other, it's it's just like everything else. we're We're taught this whole recovery thing is consistency. I found out that Instagram is the same thing, but it could become, as you know, any sort of social media could be.

01:31:07.99
Bill
I think Instagram more so than Facebook. Facebook is like your laid back, you know, your laid back friend. and And Instagram is your friend that's had, you know, 12 cups of coffee and is always on the go.

01:31:18.76
Bill
You know, that's the the difference with me.

01:31:20.63
Heather
ah

01:31:21.46
Bill
Instagram is a little bit more insane than the Facebook, in my opinion. it just it's a different it's ah It's a whole different animal. you know But if you're doing different things, the basic basic part is just realize that what you're posting on Facebook, you don't follow normal links on Instagram.

01:31:29.69
Heather
Yeah. Yeah.

01:31:38.15
Bill
So if you have an Instagram page, make sure that you at least have in your profile, have a link to your website so people can access you. But beyond that, they're not going to be able to click through things like they can on Facebook.

01:31:44.47
Heather
yeah

01:31:48.53
Bill
That's a weird part with Instagram. But there's a lot of there's a lot of sober people on on Instagram. And sooner or later, you're gonna if you have the right hashtags and shit like that, going to start getting and gaining followers you know just by having that content on there.

01:32:01.69
Heather
Yeah, yeah, good stuff.

01:32:04.76
Bill
Yeah, it's it's still, social media is a fucking pain in the ass, though. It just is.

01:32:09.64
Mike
Mm-hmm. Oh,

01:32:10.61
Bill
it's a It's a necessary evil, i guess.

01:32:13.02
Mike
so.

01:32:14.87
Heather
It is.

01:32:16.34
Bill
so So what else? What are what are we missing? what did What did we miss either with the travel part, with your story, with obviously your your son and your wonderful, you know obviously, story with him?

01:32:26.50
Bill
What else do you want to do you want to share with people or what did we miss?

01:32:31.90
Heather
think I think we got it.

01:32:34.87
Mike
awful all

01:32:35.16
Heather
um Yeah, i I feel like we we covered a lot. Like, um yeah, I mean, the the goal here is, you know, a lot of people think that when you get sober, the the world gets smaller.

01:32:44.28
Bill
Okay.

01:32:44.41
Mike
he

01:32:49.54
Heather
and and And I don't think so, you know.

01:32:51.32
Bill
Right. ah

01:32:52.54
Heather
Yeah,

01:32:52.76
Mike
No, it gets far, far larger.

01:32:56.02
Bill
Right.

01:32:56.92
Heather
yeah for sure.

01:32:57.18
Bill
What will we do now that we quit drinking? Right, Mike?

01:32:59.19
Mike
i know. Yeah, exactly.

01:33:00.50
Heather
Yes.

01:33:01.91
Bill
yeah

01:33:01.94
Heather
Yeah.

01:33:03.48
Bill
Well, and, you know, we we tell people this all the time and we'll tell you the same thing as things progress. If you ever want to pop back on here, obviously, you know, as ah as a friend of ours, and you know, got to do is reach out if you need anything from us.

01:33:15.90
Bill
But. You know, if you if you ever want to even pop back on here for, you know, 15 minutes or a half hour, if you got something new going on or things are progressing, if you got a trip, you want to whatever the deal is, just let us know if it's a if it's if we record at the same time every goddamn Friday, speaking of consistency, with very few exceptions, this this week being one of them, this next week being one of them.

01:33:31.41
Mike
Mm-hmm.

01:33:33.94
Mike
Right. Mm-hmm.

01:33:37.00
Bill
But just let us know. And if you if you want to come on on a Friday, even if it's for a you know a brief amount of time to promote something or or give us an update, um let us know. I mean, we'll we'll do anything we can to help you out.

01:33:47.74
Heather
Yeah, that'd be great. Yeah. Check me out wandering weightlessly and suitcases in sobriety.

01:33:53.40
Bill
Okay, cool. All right.

01:33:54.50
Mike
Cool.

01:33:54.55
Heather
Awesome.

01:33:54.89
Bill
So, so don't remember, don't hang up yet.

01:33:57.40
Heather
Yep.

01:33:57.55
Bill
Cause Mike, first of all, Mike's going to say, Mike's got a little way of getting us out of here in case you haven't listened to that yet.

01:33:59.48
Mike
he

01:34:01.94
Heather
Yes, yes, I'm aware.

01:34:02.78
Bill
So Mike's, oh, you know it.

01:34:03.30
Mike
Uh-huh.

01:34:03.39
Heather
Okay.

01:34:04.35
Bill
Okay, good, good, good, good. All right. So don't go away, Heather. Don't go away.

01:34:08.12
Heather
okay

01:34:08.98
Mike
All right. Well, thank you, everyone, for listening to yet another episode of Sober Not Mature. Thank you, Heather, coming on and sharing your story and all that good stuff. And if you want to travel and wander, if you have that gene, I don't.

01:34:21.72
Heather
Have that gene.

01:34:22.98
Mike
I want to lock myself in my house and never leave, but that's just me.

01:34:22.97
Heather
I don't, want to lock myself in my house. You want to wander weightlessly.

01:34:26.96
Mike
But if you want to wander weightlessly, go check out Heather's stuff.

01:34:29.51
Heather
Go check out Heather's stuff.

01:34:30.96
Mike
And, you know, as always, be kind to each other.

01:34:31.91
Heather
And, you know, as always, be kind to each other.

01:34:34.60
Mike
be good to each other. go out and do something nice for somebody else this week and don't tell anybody you did it. Now, from the bottom of my heart to the depths of my soul, from the beginning of time until the ends of the earth, always and eternally,

01:34:41.27
Heather
Now, from the bottom of my heart to the depths of my soul, from the beginning of time until the end of your hallways,

01:34:51.86
Mike
Fuck you. Now it's time, kids. It is time for you to fuck off. Then keep fucking off. Keep fucking off till you get to a gate with a sign on it saying, you cannot fuck off past here.

01:35:05.40
Mike
Climb over that gate.

01:35:06.39
Heather
that gate

01:35:06.92
Mike
Dream the impossible dream. and Keep fucking off forever.

01:35:12.31
Bill
yeah

01:35:12.34
Mike
ye

01:35:13.11
Bill
yeah Apparently, we've had somebody that's heard that before.

01:35:16.06
Mike
And yet still enjoys it

01:35:16.70
Heather
Sorry! Sorry!

01:35:19.61
Bill
Yeah, I know. i just All I hear is the fucking giggles in the background. They're sitting there making making me laugh.

01:35:24.06
Mike
it

01:35:25.74
Bill
No, no, Yeah, you

01:35:27.00
Mike
No, please. It's wonderful. I mean, I do it every fucking week, and I'm hoping somebody's out there laughing at it. Now I know someone is.

01:35:36.41
Heather
Yes.

01:35:37.57
Mike
Thank you.

01:35:38.31
Heather
They are.

01:35:41.02
Bill
But yeah yeah, I always give him, I give him the floor and I just, I mute and every once in a while he'll stumble over himself and I'll fucking be laughing my ass off at him.

01:35:47.73
Heather
I was trying to figure

01:35:49.46
Bill
And, but yeah, it's, it's always fun. Every once in a while we get somebody on here that you just hear these, these light giggles in the background and it that makes me laugh.

01:35:55.46
Heather
out how to mute.

01:35:57.78
Bill
I was muted laughing.

01:35:58.23
Mike
he

01:35:58.90
Bill
So, but yeah.

01:36:02.39
Bill
No, no, no, no. it's It was actually, it was better that you didn't, you know, because it actually makes it more fun.

01:36:05.53
Mike
listen

01:36:07.63
Bill
Plus, like like Mike said, he gets a little bit of a humorous pat on the back for himself.

01:36:08.17
Heather
I love you too.

01:36:11.95
Bill
So,

01:36:12.12
Mike
I get some human reaction. It's lovely.

01:36:14.04
Bill
ah exactly, exactly. All right. so ah So, I think we're good. So, again, Heather, don't go away. We're gonna we're just going wrap up here, and then we'll chit-chat once we get off of here. But, Mike, I love you, brother.

01:36:26.17
Mike
I love you too.

01:36:27.29
Bill
I know we'll chat soon.

01:36:28.60
Mike
We shall.

01:36:30.27
Bill
Bye.