SoberNotMature - Episode 227 (Jim O. - A Second Story About A Second Story)

00:00:01.78
Bill
All right, everyone, welcome once again to another episode of Sober Not Mature. And we've got a retread tonight.

00:00:10.39
Mike
Several.

00:00:11.80
Bill
Yeah, in this, yeah, several, yeah.

00:00:12.15
Jim O'Connor
Reach Red is right.

00:00:14.91
Bill
But in this industry, you know, we get a guy back, might as well call him a call of a retread. But yeah, we've got our got our friend Jim back from from Second Story Foundation. So first of all, Jim, thank you for for coming back on.

00:00:26.11
Bill
we We appreciate it. So appreciate it. Thank you for coming back on, definitely.

00:00:30.46
Jim O'Connor
Thanks for having me. And you know, the thing about the Reach Red, right? Like if you can find an alcoholic after six or eight months, or that's a pretty good deal.

00:00:38.61
Bill
Yeah, and that's the thing, too.

00:00:38.87
Mike
Right.

00:00:41.09
Bill
So just as a quick reminder, Jim was on with us back in January. ah Not that the date matters, but was episode 204. So if anyone wants to go back and listen to the original episode at some point also, I i was going to have you retell your story, like your opening, because we we always go through this whole thing, as you know, not, as Mike does, you know, not want drunkologues and things like that.

00:01:01.07
Bill
Jim, do you do you remember the story that you told

00:01:01.14
Jim O'Connor
Right.

00:01:04.56
Jim O'Connor
um I don't know exactly how I put it, but yeah, I know that, that um you know, my recovery story was, um you know, the the date that I got sober was March 16, 2016.

00:01:08.02
Mike
Do you remember what you had for breakfast today?

00:01:09.59
Bill
so

00:01:20.09
Bill
Nice.

00:01:20.09
Jim O'Connor
And yeah, I was ah desperate. I was... out of money, out of friends. I didn't have a place to stay. i had two bars left on my phone.

00:01:32.56
Jim O'Connor
um And I was thinking about stealing a bottle of vodka. And the voice in my head said, first I thought, okay, I can get a walk in there. It's 10 in the morning. They won't expect a thief for a bottle of vodka at 10 a.m. I'll walk right out. This guy behind the counter won't catch me.

00:01:51.38
Jim O'Connor
You know, and then I thought, oh my goodness, the cops, all right, I can outrun the cops. I'll i'll be under a bridge. And and a voice in my head said, but you'll have to do it again tomorrow.

00:01:57.41
Mike
Yeah,

00:02:00.67
Mike
right.

00:02:00.76
Bill
Right.

00:02:01.84
Jim O'Connor
and And I thought, oh my God, you know, the voice then said, if I gave you $500, it'd be gone in a week. If I gave you $5,000, it'd be gone in a month. And if I gave you $50,000, it would be gone in a year and you would be standing across the street from a liquor store trying to steal a bottle of vodka.

00:02:19.99
Mike
is it

00:02:21.27
Jim O'Connor
And that was when I knew it was over the drinking anyway, everything.

00:02:24.41
Mike
yeah right

00:02:24.47
Jim O'Connor
Well, and for me at that point, everything was over.

00:02:26.94
Mike
Right.

00:02:27.67
Jim O'Connor
Right. um It was, I didn't know a way forward. I, I told people that I wasn't, um I wasn't like giving a finger to recovery or sobriety or rehab or anything. It just wasn't in my consciousness that I would live sober. It was just over.

00:02:43.80
Bill
Right.

00:02:43.77
Jim O'Connor
So, you know, that night um after, you know, a lot of thinking and crying and and desperation, I hang myself in a park in Wheeling, Illinois with the chain.

00:02:43.85
Mike
Mm hmm.

00:02:56.55
Mike
Mm hmm.

00:02:57.02
Jim O'Connor
And, you know, it wasn't a cry for help. It was bad engineering that, that you know, there's the kind of chain came undone and I hit the deck and it was cold. i was alone and I was empty.

00:03:11.59
Jim O'Connor
Like there was no self in this shell of a body that I was carrying around.

00:03:11.66
Mike
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

00:03:17.62
Jim O'Connor
And um I got up and under a power that was not my own. I walked about two miles into the Wheeling, Illinois police station. And I said, my name is Jim O'Connor. I think I have a warrant out for my arrest. And I just tried to hang myself.

00:03:32.98
Bill
Right.

00:03:32.92
Jim O'Connor
And from that point on, the ah system kind of took over, you know, the the cops didn't hook me up on the warrant. um They got me, you know, an ambulance and into detox and and from detox, I was asked if I wanted to go to rehab and and I, you know, I did not, um but I had nowhere to go.

00:03:49.84
Mike
Mm-hmm. Right?

00:03:51.84
Jim O'Connor
Right. And, and

00:03:52.60
Mike
No, I don't.

00:03:53.40
Jim O'Connor
I had no I had yeah um you know I was looking at my options and it was rehab or homelessness in Chicago and in March and so I thought it would buy me time right it would just I just buy me time and and I'll come up with something and I went to a Medicaid-based rehab i did not come up with anything

00:03:54.52
Mike
Where do we go?

00:04:03.38
Bill
Right.

00:04:07.67
Mike
Right. Mm-hmm.

00:04:16.61
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:04:16.94
Jim O'Connor
And I had no plans ah and you know the 28th day was coming and i I had no plan for day 29. And a couple, about a week before that came, my counselor and case manager told me about a farm-based program in Payless Park, Illinois, and it was six to nine months and you could work on a farm and you came with a job.

00:04:24.57
Mike
Right. Mm-hmm.

00:04:39.74
Jim O'Connor
And You know, I thought farm, that's cool. And then, and I thought six to nine months, man, I got to get back at it. I don't have that kind of time.

00:04:47.48
Mike
Of course.

00:04:48.28
Jim O'Connor
Right.

00:04:48.60
Mike
Things to do.

00:04:48.63
Jim O'Connor
I got to get a job and apartment and a girlfriend and no particular order.

00:04:48.82
Bill
Yeah, who'd...

00:04:51.05
Mike
Uh-huh. Right.

00:04:52.15
Bill
hey

00:04:54.12
Jim O'Connor
Right. And, and then all of a sudden that voice that, that came back to my head and said, no one is waiting for you.

00:05:02.65
Mike
Right.

00:05:03.76
Jim O'Connor
Right? No one is waiting for you. The world was doing fine without me. It was not waiting on Jim O'Connor. And so I realized I had nothing but time. And so I interviewed and got into that farm-based program. I was there a year.

00:05:15.63
Jim O'Connor
And that was just over 10 years ago. That was 10 years ago in March.

00:05:18.27
Mike
Right.

00:05:19.89
Bill
Nice. Nice. Yeah. And it was, ah it was just kind of funny because the, to begin with, when, when we go through it, if you remember, Mike is, and we, we despise drunkologues, you know, and and you didn't, you didn't give us one.

00:05:30.14
Mike
right

00:05:30.23
Jim O'Connor
Mm-hmm.

00:05:31.84
Bill
And the the line that you gave us to begin with, after Mike said the whole thing about, we want to hear the solution and blah, blah, blah. I remember you said to us, you're like, okay, close your eyes. And so we close our eyes.

00:05:41.50
Jim O'Connor
Oh, yeah.

00:05:42.71
Bill
And then you're like, you're like, imagine every bad thing that you've ever done. And we did. And then you're like, I did too. and you're like, that's my story. And,

00:05:48.62
Jim O'Connor
Yeah.

00:05:48.70
Mike
a Yeah, it's perfect.

00:05:49.24
Bill
And I'm like, like that's the fucking greatest story I've ever heard.

00:05:49.50
Jim O'Connor
it's you And you know what it is? It's that thing you forgot that just clipped up on you and gave you shivers one day out of nowhere.

00:05:58.14
Bill
No, it was, it was great.

00:05:59.69
Jim O'Connor
And...

00:06:00.62
Bill
And then, yeah, we, like you, like you had said, when, when we originally, and I had, uh, whatever day that was this week that I had sent the email and just reminded that it was, you know, we usually run 90 minutes. You're like, no, you know, it's the time went by quickly.

00:06:11.58
Bill
And I'm like, I remember they, it always does because we have people on. And a lot of people think that, you know, first of all, like, Jesus Christ, 90 minutes. We've had people say that to us before. We're like, you don't to stay the entire time.

00:06:22.76
Bill
Like, ah, well, let's see how it goes type of thing. And, you know, by the time we're getting to, you know, it's like, you know, 80 minutes, there's 10 minutes left. You're like, man, it doesn't seem like we've been talking this long, you know, so it does.

00:06:31.28
Mike
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

00:06:32.48
Bill
It usually flies by because it is just basic conversation. But, um you know, same deal. I have zero idea what we talked about. I mean, I know what we talked about, the foundation and all sorts of things. But, you know, it it wasn't we didn't sit there and talk for an hour and a half about your story.

00:06:46.32
Bill
We did, but we didn't, you know.

00:06:48.09
Jim O'Connor
Right.

00:06:48.20
Bill
But I thought that that that beginning was so wonderful. And then whenever it was, and don't know, a month ago, and I was trying to look back at the email, I just found it. So I get the email from Ryan and he's like, update on, you know, second story and the whole bit.

00:07:02.20
Bill
I didn't even read it to begin with because I'm like, I'm like, oh, this we're on we're on some list again. and And Ryan wasn't paying attention and he just sent it out to because people do that. And I get it. I mean, that's how that's how you guys get your get your stuff out there.

00:07:13.88
Bill
and I understand it. We end up on probably two or three lists, I would think. And we get these waves, right, Mike, two, three times a year where we'll just get inundated with everyone, authors and everyone to tell their stories and, you know, whatever it is.

00:07:20.15
Mike
Of course.

00:07:26.34
Bill
So i had emailed Ryan back. i'm like, oh, yeah, we already had Jim back up, you know, or or I'm back in January. and he's like, no, no, no, I know, but we got this update. ah You know, you said he could come back if he wanted to.

00:07:35.29
Mike
he

00:07:36.10
Bill
he's like He's like, Kenny? I'm like, of course he can. I'm like, that the thing of it is, though, what's good what's kind of funny, and I was just thinking about it literally right before we we entered into the the studio tonight.

00:07:38.42
Mike
of course

00:07:46.97
Bill
I think we've had, you might be only the fifth person we've ever had back. um And we've told, i don't know how many people, um you know, hey, if you...

00:07:54.87
Mike
Yeah, I mean, well, pretty much everybody. we You know, yeah. Maybe a couple of them we were we didn't.

00:08:00.25
Bill
yeah

00:08:00.30
Mike
But it's like, yeah, that was good.

00:08:01.72
Bill
Yeah, you get done with the episode, you're like...

00:08:03.74
Mike
Yeah, yeah, that was good. That was enough. Thank you. But, yes, most most of the guests we have on, we do invite back. We say, hey, if you got something else you want to come on, please, you're open.

00:08:13.82
Mike
The door is open. But, yes, you but most people don't take us up on it.

00:08:15.58
Bill
Yeah.

00:08:18.47
Bill
Right. Yeah. Which is, which is surprising, you know, but, and I don't know, we, we had a great conversation with you, the whole thing you do, we could get into anything and everything you want to talk about. But yeah, I just, I thought that was funny when I was thinking about it and I know the, the other four people, for instance, for sure, maybe there was a fifth one, but then one way or the other, it's it hasn't been that many. So we, we appreciate you coming back, but also, you know, obviously we're, We tend to be a little selective. That means nothing.

00:08:42.03
Bill
You're not supposed to feel special. we just get we've gotten more we've gotten more selective over the We've gotten more selective over the years because, like Mike said, sometimes we get done with an episode.

00:08:43.75
Mike
Right.

00:08:43.70
Jim O'Connor
Yeah, not unique.

00:08:48.09
Mike
okay

00:08:50.79
Bill
And it was fine. But it was fine. you know We don't need to go back there again.

00:08:53.27
Mike
right

00:08:54.03
Bill
you know

00:08:55.62
Jim O'Connor
So I remember when when we talked last, Bill, if you were if I remember right, you were starting out on kind of like moving around the country a little bit.

00:09:04.73
Bill
Yeah. You know, the the thing that is, and I did that for, um I've been, when I first started, it was two years ago, actually, theoretically two and a half years ago. Well, a couple years ago.

00:09:14.35
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:09:15.33
Bill
And then it's just the the last probably six months or so. um i had a health issue back in October that kind of wrapped up in December, got that all squared away. And then everything got really expensive.

00:09:25.70
Bill
And then my income dropped, dropped a little bit at work. So for the last, i don't know, handful of months, I really haven't done much. Which is fine, you know, because the thing of it is, and um my sister and I are are working on a couple of things, which, you know, we're well we've talked about a little bit openly, but it could ah it's going to involve more travel.

00:09:43.81
Bill
And my my point is, it's going to come. It's just a matter of of time. And, you know, for a while I get there and impatience is fuck. And I mean, it's just it's terrible. And I did so much in that first year.

00:09:56.54
Bill
And then that second year, I've seen more things across areas of this country in the last two years than I've seen my entire life. And I'm 57. Now that has nothing to do.

00:10:07.39
Bill
It's not a knock against my parents or people I was with or my ex-wives. We just didn't do those things, you know, and I've had so much fun and it's like taken away.

00:10:13.29
Jim O'Connor
Yeah.

00:10:16.43
Bill
It's a little bit of a, it got to be a little bit of a drug, but it's expensive, you know, just like drugs, you know?

00:10:20.50
Jim O'Connor
Oh, it sure is.

00:10:21.51
Bill
And, uh, you know, when, when everything else, I mean, just fucking gas money is expensive, you know? So, um, and I don't spend a lot of money when I travel, but, um, it's still there and it's going to happen more.

00:10:32.03
Bill
But yeah, I mean, since since we talked in January, um i've I've got a new grandson. Mike actually has ah has a, yeah, thank you.

00:10:38.26
Jim O'Connor
congratulations.

00:10:39.81
Bill
um It's a second one for me now. So yeah, he's just a little one. But then Mike's got a grandchild that just turned into an adult, which was, and she was two when we got sober, you know, so.

00:10:46.44
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:10:49.14
Jim O'Connor
ah

00:10:49.24
Mike
Yes.

00:10:50.81
Bill
It's like, how do I was telling Mike, I'm like, how to out of all the people that we've seen, the kids and everything grow up around us, she's the one that just, her turning 18 blew my mind. i And I don't really understand why, right, Mike?

00:10:59.93
Mike
h

00:11:01.53
Bill
I don't get it.

00:11:02.10
Mike
i i I don't either, but yes, it's, but it happened.

00:11:03.77
Bill
ah

00:11:05.26
Mike
We don't have to understand it. It happened anyway.

00:11:07.13
Bill
yeah Yeah, and then that we had a, I was going to joke about it when we first started, but I figured i I'd wait just in case. But yeah, we got, I don't know if you, well, you're not on social media much, are you, Jim?

00:11:18.20
Jim O'Connor
Not really.

00:11:19.19
Bill
Okay, so we got, just out of the blue, we got nominated for an award for Best Podcast, and it was by...

00:11:26.00
Jim O'Connor
Oh, that's spectacular.

00:11:27.38
Bill
Yeah, it was by this ah group Sands Bar. It's a non-alcoholic um bar and group out in Austin, Texas. And literally, I almost breezed by it because people send me a lot of memes and shit like that, reels on Instagram. So I get this message and you know we were tagged and I'm like, oh, thank you. you know I liked it and went on. And then I pop back into it, into the messages that I looked and I saw something that made me draw into it. And then it it was basically telling us that we've been nominated.

00:11:53.66
Bill
So um voting ended in April. We're going out to Austin, Texas, me, Mike, and our sister end of August. From what we can see ah across the internet, we've kind of blown up the internet with our with our campaign.

00:12:04.86
Bill
ah

00:12:05.34
Jim O'Connor
That's awesome.

00:12:07.64
Bill
Yeah, but it was it was just...

00:12:07.73
Jim O'Connor
That's awesome.

00:12:09.72
Bill
it was i don't it's it's It's a peer-voted thing. And I kept it to myself for a couple of days because I wanted to tell Mike on here, and which is hard enough you know to do that.

00:12:20.73
Bill
and then So he's asking me all these questions, and I'm like, I don't fucking know. I don't know who. I don't know how. I don't know what.

00:12:25.84
Jim O'Connor
Doesn't matter.

00:12:25.96
Mike
Right. I've driven through everywhere.

00:12:27.29
Jim O'Connor
it Doesn't matter.

00:12:28.52
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:12:29.21
Jim O'Connor
We're going.

00:12:29.94
Bill
Yeah, and so it's just, yeah, we're going to go to...

00:12:30.14
Mike
right

00:12:32.02
Bill
I've never been. Mike's been... like you but He's been all over the goddamn place, but...

00:12:35.44
Mike
i've driven through everywhere

00:12:38.14
Jim O'Connor
Right.

00:12:39.10
Bill
But yeah, so it's ah you know kind of a, I don't know, would' say it's it's cool. um For once, I think probably not an egotistical response that we had to it.

00:12:48.02
Mike
he

00:12:48.06
Bill
It was more or less kind of like, really? Yeah.

00:12:51.58
Jim O'Connor
I think it's great. that's I mean, that's great validation for what you guys are doing. It means people are listening. It's it's awesome.

00:12:57.90
Mike
Yeah.

00:12:58.10
Bill
Yeah. And it's such a, we've got such a small, but loyal group of people. We're not a big podcast, which you know, you know, but um yeah, it is. it's It's nice to get that, to get that validation. It really, really is. But then, um you know, so obviously I got, I got back to Ryan and stuff like that. We get everything all set up and then. um I mean, obviously you guys had number one. I mean, love for you to, you know, dip into the whole thing with the second story foundation again, to let people reintroduce people to that, to what it is and then what the deal is too. Cause I mean, Ryan said along that, this huge announcement for it too, if you have it or if you want me to read that off as you get into it, whatever, whatever works for you, obviously I know that, that that's one of the reasons to, you know, to get, get on here and, you know, toot that horn. So.

00:13:39.92
Jim O'Connor
Yeah, well, um when we talked in January that we had we bought a 68 acre working horse farm um in March of last year.

00:13:47.54
Bill
Right.

00:13:49.63
Jim O'Connor
And we we got through the, now this farm is a harness racing training facility. It has a five-eighths mile limestone racetrack on it.

00:13:54.99
Mike
Right.

00:13:55.07
Bill
Okay, I forgot. Right.

00:13:58.39
Jim O'Connor
And over 50 race horses boarded the the train daily. And we bought this farm and and I'm going to go ahead and and let people know now that we we didn't know a single thing about harness racing.

00:14:09.30
Bill
we a

00:14:09.34
Jim O'Connor
And ah we knew a little bit about a little bit about about farming.

00:14:10.71
Mike
You can say that now.

00:14:13.87
Jim O'Connor
um We kind of know how to fix stuff and and we've been around horses, but we just jumped into it um because we needed, ah you know, we were building a ah long-term men's recovery program um that's focused around work, really.

00:14:29.76
Mike
Mm hmm.

00:14:29.88
Jim O'Connor
You know, that recovery is... is Dimensional, you know, ah but and we talk about post-treatment recovery, like what do you do on day 29?

00:14:42.54
Bill
Right.

00:14:42.54
Mike
Right.

00:14:42.90
Jim O'Connor
And my partner, Eric Christensen and I had both been through this long-term residential recovery program on a farm. He he went through 10 years before I did. We became friends as alumni of that program and have been great friends since. And You know, we were asked about replicating this program we went through and, know, I said, get me a horse farm and I'll think about it.

00:15:07.70
Jim O'Connor
Never thought that would happen. So we got through, bought the farm in March.

00:15:09.33
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:15:13.46
Jim O'Connor
The winter was rough. That was a big learning experience. And this was a distressed property. So, you know, we're fixing broken pipes. We're throwing money at machines and and we're just kind of trying to hang on.

00:15:26.01
Jim O'Connor
And, you know, a just seasons change, right? and And the weather changed and so did our fortunes a little bit. We made it through the winter and um we got a couple of really great grants and donations early in the year in 26. And we started a ah recovery-based work program um for people getting out of Medicaid-based 28-day inpatient programs who were moving into recovery homes.

00:15:52.83
Mike
Right.

00:15:52.95
Jim O'Connor
And, you know, we couldn't hire, we'd love to hire everybody, but we were trying to figure out how best to help. And this was really born organically. a friend of the program said, Hey, I got this guy you know, he needs some work. He has no bank account, no phone, um no work clothes and rents due $175 a week.

00:16:16.50
Jim O'Connor
You know, we have you, have you got anything for him? And I said, well, we can put him to work for a day, give him a hundred bucks. And he did a great job and he said, can I come back? And we had him back a few more days.

00:16:27.15
Jim O'Connor
And I went back to my friend who runs recovery homes and and I said, how many guys could you send us? And he said, endless. He said, it's just endless.

00:16:35.90
Mike
Right, right.

00:16:37.34
Jim O'Connor
And we thought, all right, we can't hire anybody full time, but we could take guys for a couple of days a week, you know, give them two or three days of work until they get a straight job and and pay them cash so they can kind of get on their feet.

00:16:44.60
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:16:51.62
Jim O'Connor
And this program took off.

00:16:53.88
Bill
Right.

00:16:54.07
Jim O'Connor
We connected with the recovery community center Joliet and about 12 recovery homes in the area.

00:16:54.15
Mike
Hmm.

00:17:02.88
Jim O'Connor
And we've been taking men and sometimes women um since March. And it's been it's been really fantastic. you know We ask everybody, what are your top three needs you know with this money?

00:17:16.25
Mike
Right.

00:17:17.26
Jim O'Connor
And it's rent, food, and transportation.

00:17:20.49
Mike
Yeah.

00:17:21.31
Jim O'Connor
Right. And I mean, these are things that we take for granted. um and And these are just foundational things that people need. And, you know, you wonder why people relapse.

00:17:31.21
Bill
Right.

00:17:31.13
Jim O'Connor
um

00:17:31.22
Mike
Right.

00:17:31.96
Jim O'Connor
Right. I've just done 28 days. i don't really have anywhere to go. i don't have a great network. Not a lot of healthy people. I know I need sober living. OK, I'll choose that. And now I have nothing.

00:17:44.27
Jim O'Connor
I've got to start from zero.

00:17:44.50
Mike
Mm hmm. Right.

00:17:46.20
Jim O'Connor
And so the people that have come have just been been amazing. they you know They work great. They all love being on the farm and they have all said, thank you so much for giving me a job.

00:17:51.99
Mike
Mm hmm.

00:17:58.47
Mike
Mm hmm.

00:17:59.32
Jim O'Connor
Right? I felt unemployable. you know We're not asking what the record is or you know whether they've been to jail or what their skillset are, you don't need a resume.

00:18:04.66
Mike
Sure.

00:18:08.87
Jim O'Connor
and And every one of them has been so grateful just to be looked at and thought of as a worker.

00:18:14.89
Mike
Wow.

00:18:15.00
Bill
Right.

00:18:15.61
Jim O'Connor
And so that's gone on since March um and our plans there have moved along with, a you know, we we've got blueprints and and you know construction plans for a recovery campus that's centered around a 7,000 square foot lodge that's a hybrid recovery center and recovery home, 15 beds um for men.

00:18:38.14
Jim O'Connor
And just a few weeks ago, we found out that we got a $2 million dollars grant from the state of Illinois.

00:18:42.46
Mike
wow

00:18:42.90
Bill
a

00:18:44.18
Jim O'Connor
Yeah.

00:18:45.07
Bill
Oh,

00:18:45.53
Jim O'Connor
And it's, it you know, we've been working hard at it um You know, the states, ah across the nation, states are getting opioid settlement funds.

00:18:49.23
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:18:55.99
Mike
Right.

00:18:56.12
Jim O'Connor
from the pharmaceutical companies that when the Sackler family lost a $6 billion dollars lawsuit, anybody that had touched OxyContin over the last 15 years, they all settled.

00:18:56.34
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:18:56.50
Bill
yeah, I remember you talking about that. Yeah.

00:19:06.80
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:19:08.65
Jim O'Connor
I mean, even the even the even Walgreens and CVS, if if if OxyContin went through their hands, they settled, they settled.

00:19:09.30
Mike
Right.

00:19:14.17
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:19:18.49
Mike
And it did. Right.

00:19:20.66
Bill
Right.

00:19:20.98
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:19:21.09
Jim O'Connor
So, we had ah We've been working really hard to try to access those funds in Illinois, and it actually didn't come out of that. We had some state senators who went to bat for us, and they they saw the value in building a place where people could live, work, and then enter 12-step recovery.

00:19:42.39
Jim O'Connor
Right. And, um, that, you know, we were kind of seeing things nationally and at, at SAMHSA and in the addictions field, and they're kind of leaning our way. We got there early. Um, so we're just really grateful, you know, for, for, you know, the, the gifts we've got.

00:19:52.68
Mike
Nice.

00:19:57.02
Jim O'Connor
And last week, um, we had a recovery-oriented barber, recovery oriented barbecue, bluegrass and AA meeting. And we had 200 people for the barbecue and we had a hundred people for an AA meeting.

00:20:13.16
Bill
Right.

00:20:13.11
Jim O'Connor
um yeah and it was our second time like we just threw the ask out there we didn't really work real hard we didn't you know work the phones or anything we just said come on out and um you know when I chaired that meeting and I was looking over you know 100 people for this open speaker meeting um at that moment I was happier to see all those people in our barn than I was with the two million dollars

00:20:13.24
Mike
nice

00:20:21.24
Mike
Mm hmm.

00:20:37.43
Mike
Right.

00:20:37.46
Jim O'Connor
And that's not, that's not an exaggeration.

00:20:37.78
Bill
right right

00:20:39.74
Jim O'Connor
It just meant the world um that that many people were showing up and, and kind of shared the vision and share the ranch.

00:20:43.68
Mike
Mm hmm.

00:20:46.34
Jim O'Connor
So, you know we're grateful. um Just grateful, right? Like, you know, 10 years ago, I was homeless um just over 10 years and you know, desperate and, and through the grace of God and the fellowship of AA you know, we're doing good things.

00:20:54.26
Mike
sin Right?

00:21:07.48
Mike
Yes you are.

00:21:08.57
Bill
So with, um, with something like that, I mean, I, obviously there's a lot of, uh, you know, well and maybe, maybe you answered this question because you said you were relatively new to the process. So were there, are there, were you competing for this grant or you were just able, I don't want to say able to just get it. Cause I know it's a lot of work one way or the other, but were you in the right place at the right time? Plus had the right plan in place or how did that, how did that come into play?

00:21:31.51
Jim O'Connor
Well, I'll be honest, um we have been um trying to work the the regular channels. There's a ah state process through our Department of Human Services that gate keeps and and delivers these opioid settlement funds. And we have been trying to access it for two years. And we keep getting told there's administrative problems with giving out money for capital, even though it's been approved and they can't get the right partners to administer these grants.

00:22:02.94
Jim O'Connor
And we just kept at it. We kept going to um through the regular channels. And then when we couldn't really break through, we brought it to our state reps um and our state legislators. And we just said, hey, can you help us get through this process? Maybe maybe help grease the wheels, right? Help you know maybe influence this state agency.

00:22:24.18
Jim O'Connor
um to kind of get it together so, you know, projects like ours could develop. And that did not happen. um But along the way, we talked to so many people, so many of those legislators, they found another way.

00:22:39.00
Jim O'Connor
to pool money to get to us, to get us out the door. Now it's not everything we need, but it's it's enough to get our construction project started.

00:22:47.60
Mike
Sure.

00:22:47.68
Jim O'Connor
It's it's enough to develop a full phase one um where we'll have our staff support houses built for the campus part and some programming houses built.

00:22:47.77
Bill
Right.

00:22:57.23
Jim O'Connor
And then, you know, we've still got to raise the money for the lodge and men's residences. But we think now with the validation that we've gotten from a large state grant,

00:23:08.76
Jim O'Connor
from the validation we've gotten from you know friends in the media and and friends all over that the Illinois State Opioid Settlement administrators will have to kind of take another look at us and see, figure out how they're gonna help.

00:23:15.13
Mike
here

00:23:23.10
Mike
Absolutely. Yeah.

00:23:25.64
Bill
Right.

00:23:26.17
Mike
Good.

00:23:27.06
Bill
Yeah. And I was it was just kind of curious because I know that in in you know the state of Illinois, I don't think is financially sound or in the best in the best shape, I think, in most cases or hasn't been over the last handful of years. But I mean, the ah I guess a ah pool of money like that coming from that settlement, that shouldn't matter, but maybe it does. um and I don't know, i get I get so, I'll say cautious when it comes to governmental things.

00:23:53.10
Bill
And I've never tried to, never been part of a process that has has tried to get a grant or anything like that. I worked for a company that got um like a workforce development grant.

00:24:02.84
Jim O'Connor
mm hmm.

00:24:03.27
Bill
When I first moved back, after I got sober and I was in Ohio and then there for like three and a half years, i went back to Wisconsin. The first company I worked for was in Madison, Wisconsin.

00:24:14.43
Bill
And basically what they what they wanted to do, it is it's actually yeah in kind of side note there.

00:24:14.90
Jim O'Connor
Great town.

00:24:19.59
Bill
I was told by somebody i worked with at that point that Austin was kind of the same the same type of vibe as Madison College Town and, oh you know, could be a little little liberal on both sides of it, you know, or both cities, but Music Town and all these sort of things and some really good areas and some not so great areas.

00:24:24.86
Jim O'Connor
Yep.

00:24:35.73
Bill
I'm like, yeah, that's Madison. um But they the company had been in Madison since like the late 40s. So they've been there a long time. And then they were expanding. They had an office in, um they bought a small agency in, our small company in Geneva, Illinois.

00:24:52.27
Bill
So that was obviously out of state, but they had Madison.

00:24:53.40
Jim O'Connor
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

00:24:54.39
Bill
They were setting up to do a satellite office for a client of ours in Milwaukee. And then we had an office in Beloit. And Beloit was looking, the expansion areas where they were looking, Because the Beloit's kind of an area in a town that's a little bit a little bit stressed, you know, economically.

00:25:09.56
Bill
So they're like, okay, we've got, you know, 30 people, but we want to grow to, you know, like 300 just in this office. And in the time that I was there, which is like less than two years, we grew to like 250.

00:25:22.08
Bill
And it was literally because of this whole workforce thing. And it's like, we're going to put these people to work and their jobs, their entry level jobs that people can get into. But it was a process. I think it took a number of years and they they knew they had been in town.

00:25:36.56
Bill
Well, you know, well-established company, been around literally at that point for, you know, 50 some years, you know, or 40 some years at that point. And, you know, all these different things, but it was a process to get it.

00:25:47.52
Bill
But when they did, it's like, okay, like you just said, and I think was for them also, once you get, and I think validation is probably a cool way to put it because it's like, okay, well, somebody already did this and this is what we're doing with it.

00:25:59.84
Bill
We just want to do more, you know, and now we want to do more good things. So hopefully, like you said, the the people, gatekeepers, right? That are, that are, ah yeah, it's,

00:26:09.21
Jim O'Connor
Yeah. And, and, you know, I think the the thing that we're hoping they'd come around to is, um you know, recovery has to happen somewhere and you know, a lot of the addictions field um has been developed around ah medical model of services provided, right?

00:26:19.80
Mike
yeah

00:26:31.77
Mike
Right.

00:26:31.91
Bill
Right.

00:26:32.44
Mike
Medical, psychological. well youre Right.

00:26:34.58
Jim O'Connor
Correct.

00:26:35.48
Mike
yeah but Yeah. But we know feet on the ground, man. You know? Yes.

00:26:40.02
Bill
but

00:26:39.99
Jim O'Connor
Right.

00:26:40.16
Mike
get

00:26:40.27
Jim O'Connor
and

00:26:40.89
Mike
Yeah. Yes. It's great. All that stuff is is part of it. And and's that's great. But it's not all of it. We need we need to get back into society. and What is getting back into society?

00:26:49.06
Jim O'Connor
Yep.

00:26:50.61
Mike
It's working.

00:26:51.61
Bill
Right,

00:26:51.57
Jim O'Connor
It's working, it's living with others, it's learning how to be in relationship to friends, family, coworkers, employers, and civic society.

00:26:52.54
Mike
Yeah. Yeah.

00:26:58.90
Mike
Mm-hmm. Society.

00:27:00.78
Jim O'Connor
Like, how do i my one of my favorite lines from the meeting was ah ah a great woman and mom who said, you know,

00:27:01.08
Mike
Yes.

00:27:10.07
Jim O'Connor
quitting drinking was hard, but not that hard. She said, I don't know how to do life.

00:27:14.49
Mike
Mm-hmm. Right.

00:27:17.02
Bill
right.

00:27:17.43
Jim O'Connor
And I love that line. I don't know how to do life.

00:27:20.63
Mike
Right.

00:27:20.70
Jim O'Connor
And, and that, that's not a clinical process.

00:27:24.79
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:27:25.10
Bill
Right. hmm.

00:27:25.40
Jim O'Connor
Right. And so when you when you look at addictions, the addictions field and states and and how they address it, this this services provided model, it works if you need to go into the hospital and get an MRI or a blood draw.

00:27:38.72
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:27:39.57
Jim O'Connor
You can see the line item on your bill.

00:27:41.85
Mike
Yeah.

00:27:42.52
Jim O'Connor
Right. And it says, OK, that was a service provided. We did a discreet thing.

00:27:47.11
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:27:48.19
Jim O'Connor
And going to 28 day program, you know for a lot of people is necessary, but I will tell anybody it's just a breather. It's not a solution.

00:27:55.99
Mike
Right.

00:27:56.16
Bill
Right.

00:27:56.54
Jim O'Connor
Right. And it's, it's necessary.

00:27:57.50
Mike
Yeah.

00:27:58.18
Jim O'Connor
Get the, get drugs and alcohol out of your system as much as possible.

00:28:01.04
Mike
Mm-hmm. Right.

00:28:02.42
Jim O'Connor
um Take a breath and then try to make a clear headed decision on what's next.

00:28:07.74
Mike
Yeah.

00:28:08.47
Bill
Right.

00:28:08.73
Jim O'Connor
But what's next isn't, yeah, but what what's, right, there's there's always a next, right?

00:28:08.92
Mike
Yeah, but there' just got to be yeah there's got to be something next. Yeah. Yeah.

00:28:14.54
Jim O'Connor
And, you know, you could do cognitive behavioral therapy, you could do trauma therapy, post-traumatic stress dis disorder of therapy, you can do all different kinds of therapies, you could do medically assisted treatment, all this stuff, but none of them will provide you a job, a place to live, or a community of family, friends.

00:28:19.63
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:28:25.93
Mike
Yeah.

00:28:29.55
Mike
Right.

00:28:35.10
Jim O'Connor
it It just, it doesn't do that.

00:28:35.22
Mike
Right.

00:28:35.53
Bill
Right.

00:28:37.08
Mike
Yeah, right.

00:28:38.31
Jim O'Connor
And those are the things that are most necessary to learn how to get into.

00:28:43.13
Mike
Absolutely.

00:28:43.35
Jim O'Connor
um you know And when we talk about 12-step recovery, we talked about the fact that you know in church basements all over the country, 365 days a year, um there's a free intervention ready for you, you know where people are waiting for you.

00:28:58.57
Jim O'Connor
People are there to help.

00:28:59.00
Mike
Right.

00:29:00.28
Jim O'Connor
And so it's it's trying to figure out what that social intervention is, you know, to help people get from day 28 to, you know, 30 days is great, 60 days is better.

00:29:06.39
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:29:12.41
Jim O'Connor
um But really developing, building a life that you want to stay sober for.

00:29:17.40
Mike
Exactly.

00:29:17.69
Bill
Right. Well, and and we probably talked about this. all I know we did. We went through, um you know, a sober living facility in Cleveland called the Keating Center. And, you know, not not like your thing, but not unlike it, only in the fact that they were.

00:29:24.86
Jim O'Connor
Oh, yeah. Yeah.

00:29:30.14
Jim O'Connor
Oh, I know about it now, yeah.

00:29:32.06
Bill
Yeah. And it's ah it's a wonderful, number one, wonderful group of people, wonderful concept, wonderful um community support. And, you know, basically did did, literally did for us what we didn't know how to do for ourselves. And, you know, Mike was 43. I was 41.

00:29:47.54
Bill
We were on the older side, I think, at the time we were there. Right, Mike, if I'm thinking about it, because, I mean, there was some people older than us, but you look at, you know, the the Mike Rowley's and the the Joe H's and all those people, you know, some of our really good friends.

00:29:51.06
Mike
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:29:57.30
Mike
Right. Yeah. A lot of guys are in their 30s. Yeah.

00:30:00.76
Bill
Oh yeah. I mean, that are, you know, 10 years younger than us and in a minimum when we were there, you know, but the thing that was, is that they, um to your point, I love the way you said, take a breath. Cause that, that's what it is.

00:30:11.45
Bill
I mean, I had no desire to be there, but that's basically Marty would always just say, relax, relax, just sit down, relax, you know, but at the time, the same thing, once we get in there, then now we want to go take care of our, our, our lives and our children.

00:30:12.25
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:30:24.92
Bill
And well, i got bills to pay. I got work to do. You don't know you don't you fucker, sit your ass down and,

00:30:29.34
Jim O'Connor
Yeah, you're terrible at everything.

00:30:31.06
Bill
Yeah, you are.

00:30:31.32
Mike
Right.

00:30:31.66
Jim O'Connor
but You're just awful at everything.

00:30:32.00
Mike
Exactly.

00:30:32.42
Bill
that's that that's that that might that might That might be the only, he probably didn't put in those words, but that's literally what they were telling us is, yeah, you you don't know how to do anything.

00:30:35.38
Mike
Thank you.

00:30:35.36
Jim O'Connor
Oh, yeah.

00:30:41.32
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:30:42.70
Bill
And we would we would clean, we would do all these different things. And we always joke about him, like it was he was like Mr. Miyagi, you know? You know, paint the fence and wax the card. We didn't know fuck we were doing, you know, but he was teaching us these life things.

00:30:51.26
Jim O'Connor
Yeah.

00:30:54.66
Bill
And then, and then we're in the, in the facility and then we get to go to the three quarter house. And what was our rent? Was it 300 at the three quarter or 250, 300?

00:31:01.75
Mike
Yeah.

00:31:02.88
Bill
Yeah.

00:31:03.16
Mike
It was 300.

00:31:04.31
Bill
yeah So when we were at the, at the Keating center is 250 because they gave us meals and then we had to pay it.

00:31:08.68
Jim O'Connor
A month or a week?

00:31:09.51
Bill
We had to pay a whopping fit.

00:31:10.10
Mike
Yeah. A month.

00:31:11.13
Jim O'Connor
A month.

00:31:11.26
Bill
Yeah.

00:31:11.69
Jim O'Connor
See, that's great.

00:31:12.12
Bill
Oh yeah.

00:31:12.15
Mike
Yeah.

00:31:12.52
Bill
Yeah.

00:31:13.04
Jim O'Connor
That's great.

00:31:13.24
Mike
Yeah.

00:31:13.46
Bill
Yeah. yeah i mean And again, you're you're talking 16 years ago, but still, it was a fucking deal then you know as much as it is now.

00:31:18.39
Mike
he

00:31:19.54
Bill
And then we had to pay some money. We added another 50 bucks for the air conditioner in a room or something like that.

00:31:25.56
Mike
Something like that, right?

00:31:26.46
Bill
Yeah, because if you want an air conditioner, he would charge you like an extra 50. We're like, fuck it. What does it matter? because So here's the thing. So Mike gets his first real job at a place he fucking hated. i I worked in a factory for a few weeks, which I hated, and then got my first real job in the industry that I had been in.

00:31:35.03
Mike
Yep.

00:31:40.62
Bill
Had more money than I knew what to do with, making less than I ever have in my life.

00:31:44.41
Mike
Right.

00:31:44.46
Bill
you know

00:31:44.44
Jim O'Connor
bright

00:31:45.34
Bill
But I mean, we're we're literally, our bills, when Mike and I lived together, even on our own, what were our bills total?

00:31:50.23
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:31:51.34
Bill
It was like, i don't know, $400 or $500 a piece?

00:31:52.82
Mike
i Yeah, yeah, it's probably 500 for everything. Yeah, yeah.

00:31:55.86
Bill
Yeah, for everything, you know, and when he and I lived on our own. But the whole point there is that we had the opportunity to to rebuild things. And then, you know, we we took we had we had enough time to get our shit together and then we could get ourselves up to our fucking eyeballs and debt again, you know, and and we and we knew how to handle it.

00:32:09.78
Jim O'Connor
So, and and the...

00:32:09.86
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:32:11.90
Jim O'Connor
The job you talked about, right? We call that, yeah it's not your career. It's a get well job.

00:32:16.47
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:32:16.61
Bill
Right.

00:32:17.02
Jim O'Connor
And it doesn't matter how much it pays, right?

00:32:19.32
Mike
Right. Mm-hmm.

00:32:20.22
Jim O'Connor
It's got it's got to pay something and and you hope you kind of break even on bills, but it's to get your C-Lex back really, right?

00:32:28.15
Mike
Yeah.

00:32:28.69
Bill
Right.

00:32:29.22
Jim O'Connor
It's it's to show up, you know, can I show up every day?

00:32:32.02
Mike
Yeah, right.

00:32:32.18
Jim O'Connor
Can

00:32:32.62
Mike
Yeah. Get up every day.

00:32:33.14
Jim O'Connor
can i

00:32:33.82
Mike
Get your ass there. yeah

00:32:35.45
Jim O'Connor
Right. And and can i work like, I ask guys, like, you know, can I work a full eight hours?

00:32:41.19
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:32:41.46
Jim O'Connor
Right.

00:32:41.56
Bill
yeah Right.

00:32:41.90
Jim O'Connor
yeah Like, can can I put in like seven, eight, like honest hours of work?

00:32:42.44
Bill
Which sounds ridiculous, but yeah, of course.

00:32:47.48
Bill
Right.

00:32:47.53
Mike
Right.

00:32:47.64
Jim O'Connor
um Can I deal with people at work who don't give a shit that I'm getting sober?

00:32:53.78
Mike
Yeah.

00:32:54.12
Bill
Right.

00:32:54.20
Jim O'Connor
You know, can I, can I manage that? um Can i manage stressors without walking out?

00:32:57.02
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:33:00.52
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:33:00.70
Jim O'Connor
And those are things that, You know, regular people take for granted that that, you know, those of us coming out of those rehabs, like we're not ready for that. Like not in that, not without help anyway.

00:33:11.22
Mike
Right.

00:33:13.84
Mike
Mm hmm.

00:33:14.36
Jim O'Connor
um and And, you know, to have those sober living places that like you're describing is also to come home, you know, thinking you're going to quit everything and then looking around and being like, you know what, there's a ton of other guys doing this thing.

00:33:27.09
Mike
Right.

00:33:27.28
Bill
Right.

00:33:27.38
Jim O'Connor
You know, I can keep going. What, however bad this day was, you know, I don't want to be the one that walks out.

00:33:29.25
Mike
Mm hmm.

00:33:33.46
Mike
Absolutely.

00:33:33.69
Bill
Right.

00:33:33.94
Mike
Yeah. And even at the three quarter house, I mean, we'd go back to the facility, you know, probably three, four times a week and, you know, and look at the guys that had just come in and yeah, you know, and yeah, right.

00:33:40.77
Bill
Right.

00:33:44.48
Jim O'Connor
Oh, yeah. that That's motivating.

00:33:45.98
Mike
You know, yeah, that was important. yeah Absolutely. You know, I don't want to be that guy.

00:33:50.31
Jim O'Connor
That's super motivating.

00:33:51.46
Mike
Right. I'm, you know, I'm, I'm, you know, eight months, maybe even a year sober.

00:33:55.83
Bill
oh

00:33:56.06
Mike
And yeah, I'd looking at that guy who just walked in and go, fuck man, welcome.

00:33:59.90
Jim O'Connor
Oh, yeah.

00:34:00.42
Mike
And I do not want to be you again.

00:34:03.06
Jim O'Connor
and And I, you know, when I interview guys, you know i ran a farm based program from 29 to 2019 to 2023. And I interviewed guys to get in.

00:34:10.55
Mike
Mm hmm.

00:34:12.18
Jim O'Connor
And I would tell them, ask them over and over and over again, tell me about that last day you were out there. Tell me about that last week.

00:34:17.98
Mike
Right.

00:34:18.83
Jim O'Connor
Tell me about that last month.

00:34:19.53
Mike
Mm hmm.

00:34:20.14
Jim O'Connor
Repeat it to me.

00:34:21.66
Mike
Right.

00:34:21.91
Jim O'Connor
Like, tell me what you did when you woke up all day till you passed out and just remember that.

00:34:25.78
Mike
Mm hmm.

00:34:27.41
Jim O'Connor
um and And if you can keep that close to you and and go back and see those guys crawling in, um what however bad you think it is, to is is not that bad.

00:34:27.64
Mike
Mm hmm.

00:34:27.71
Bill
Right.

00:34:27.96
Mike
Mm

00:34:33.96
Mike
hmm.

00:34:38.42
Mike
Right. Absolutely.

00:34:39.56
Bill
Well, when we were both Mike and I ended up being house fathers, Mike right away at 30 days and I, mine was at 60, 45 or 60.

00:34:44.28
Mike
m

00:34:46.25
Bill
So I think mine is closer to six. It doesn't matter. After his, he was, Mike got thrown into the fire right away.

00:34:50.17
Mike
who Yes, I did.

00:34:51.49
Bill
but but so we were house fathers and I remember this, our buddy of ours, this Tony who had been sober for a number of years. um He used to come in and he would be the one that he would help Marty out and take the, what they call the intake pictures, you know, for us guys.

00:35:04.54
Bill
for all the guys coming in. And, you know, he came in, he'd do it like once every couple of weeks, maybe once a month to get all the guys that were new. And then, so we're, we're wrangling these guys together. And then he's like, okay, everyone over here. And he's kind he's pointing kind of towards me, but he wasn't pointing towards me, just the other guys. And I walked home. I'm like, I'm like, yeah, yeah. I said, I'm a house father. Now I said, I'm not one of the new guys. He's like, no, no, no. He goes, I remember you.

00:35:26.17
Bill
He goes, say he goes, I know you're not one of the new guys.

00:35:26.38
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:35:27.81
Bill
He goes, you actually look sober now. Yeah.

00:35:29.77
Mike
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

00:35:31.22
Bill
And I mean, i was i was like two months sober. And I'm like, that was the greatest compliment I had ever gotten up to that point. I'm like, yeah, thank you.

00:35:38.55
Jim O'Connor
You know, I came into a residential program at 41 after rehab.

00:35:42.33
Bill
Yeah, me too.

00:35:42.91
Jim O'Connor
And I remember walking around the first the first week, I just had felt like I had this blank mind that was black with a neon sign flashing, this is happening, right?

00:35:43.11
Bill
Yeah.

00:35:55.45
Bill
Right, right.

00:35:56.16
Jim O'Connor
Oh my God, this is happening. And then after a few weeks, I remember thinking, God, I'm 41 years old.

00:35:57.98
Mike
things

00:36:03.66
Jim O'Connor
You know, this was not in the life plan.

00:36:06.30
Mike
Right.

00:36:06.87
Jim O'Connor
Um, and, and I had this brief thought, this is the worst thing that ever happened. And and then immediately i thought, and it's also the best thing that ever happened to you.

00:36:11.73
Mike
nothing

00:36:15.99
Mike
Right. Absolutely.

00:36:16.88
Bill
Right.

00:36:17.08
Jim O'Connor
Like both things can be true right now.

00:36:19.50
Mike
Mm-hmm. and ah And they are and were.

00:36:19.99
Jim O'Connor
Um, yeah.

00:36:21.55
Mike
And yeah, exactly. Exactly. You know, I, well, I mean, yeah, again, Marty used to say to us all the time, this is the best thing you'll ever want to, you've ever done that you'll never want to do again.

00:36:31.12
Jim O'Connor
Never wanted to, that's a great line.

00:36:32.05
Bill
Right.

00:36:33.96
Mike
yelp

00:36:34.10
Bill
Yeah.

00:36:34.16
Jim O'Connor
That's a great line. I remember being in the, it was probably, I was around about a month and we had a weekly in-house meeting. And one of the guys that was, you know, six months ahead of me, he was working on the outside. He wasn't, he'd graduated from working on the farm and he had a straight job. He'd only had it for a few weeks.

00:36:51.61
Jim O'Connor
um He was in the meeting. Our assistant director kind of pulled him out of the meeting. We called him comic book Mike. And he came out of the meeting and I never saw him again.

00:37:04.44
Jim O'Connor
And somebody smelled, you know, beer in his broth or something. And he got put out and I realized that guy was gone 15 minutes.

00:37:07.48
Mike
Right.

00:37:12.91
Bill
Right.

00:37:13.21
Jim O'Connor
And, you know, what would I do? i'd be homeless immediately.

00:37:16.82
Mike
Yeah.

00:37:17.06
Jim O'Connor
Like, I was like, I just don't want to be home.

00:37:17.53
Mike
Yeah.

00:37:18.98
Jim O'Connor
Like, i don't want to be homeless anymore.

00:37:20.12
Mike
Yeah.

00:37:21.12
Jim O'Connor
and And, you know, watching the new guys come in and and watching guys that that, you know, weren't making it go out.

00:37:21.72
Mike
Yeah.

00:37:28.09
Jim O'Connor
um You know, those those were great teachers. Those were, you know way better than a lecture.

00:37:35.00
Mike
Yeah.

00:37:35.40
Bill
Right.

00:37:35.56
Mike
we've We've always said there's no bad examples.

00:37:38.20
Bill
right

00:37:38.33
Jim O'Connor
Right.

00:37:38.42
Mike
Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And that's that's it. That's That encapsulated. Right. There are no bad examples. That's an example of what I do not want to do. Thank you for that example.

00:37:47.86
Jim O'Connor
Yeah.

00:37:48.82
Mike
Yeah.

00:37:49.88
Jim O'Connor
And, and, you know, that I keep coming back to this, that, that the, you know, for people that don't, that need sober living and people that don't have a ton of resources when, when they're coming out of rehab, um, there's gotta to be these places.

00:37:50.10
Bill
You know what's funny?

00:38:06.90
Bill
Right?

00:38:07.22
Jim O'Connor
Right. Like those of us that have been through them, you know, have, you know, talk about a life before and after, you know, the farm. Right. Or the Keating.

00:38:16.12
Mike
Yeah.

00:38:16.83
Jim O'Connor
Right. There was life before it and after. And you'll never forget it. You'll never, ever forget what you learned there.

00:38:22.04
Mike
hey

00:38:22.38
Bill
Right. Well, yeah, the the Keating Center itself, it was it wasn't um it wasn't fluff. It wasn't, you know, some resort area. It was it also wasn't it wasn't rehab.

00:38:30.73
Jim O'Connor
hmm.

00:38:30.95
Mike
Yeah.

00:38:32.97
Bill
You know, he would make it very, very clear. Marty would. And to this day, you know, it is a sober living facility. We're going to introduce you Alcoholics Anonymous. We're gonna teach you how to live, you know, how to live as a sober human being, because that is and like like you had said, the the individual at the meeting, that's a great way to put it.

00:38:48.59
Bill
And I mean, To begin with, I mean, yeah, quitting and getting sober, that initial part of it. And Mike and I talked about it on here quite a bit. And I couldn't remember, but I had asked him one time, was that probably a year ago we were talking about if we ever had like really had cravings and things like that in the Keating Center.

00:39:02.76
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:39:04.57
Bill
And neither one of us can remember having that because, well, two things. We were we were always fucking busy um in ah in an environment that was safe. And it with a bunch of guys that were doing the same thing as we were, so that was part of it.

00:39:16.29
Bill
But it was just the way things were structured and finally making at least a semi-decision of what we wanted to do. And the part of it was, that the hard part is, yes, I mean, once every step we took, you know, from the Keating Center to the three-quarter house to, you know, Mike and I moved in together, got an opportunity to move back to Wisconsin.

00:39:34.26
Bill
And at that point, that was the first time that Mike and I had lived alone, you know, both of us individually in in a long time, you know?

00:39:38.40
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:39:41.97
Bill
And sober, you know, i mean, I lived on my own for quite a while, you know, but, but not, not in a healthy way.

00:39:45.97
Jim O'Connor
I...

00:39:48.69
Bill
So every step, every fucking step was so goddamn scary at three years and at five years and all these different things. But it made me think about it when you just said, you know, 41 years old, this wasn't part of the life plan, you know, but however you would put that, know, I was thinking about the same thing is that, okay, so same deal when we were, we were the same age, 41 and 43, you know, And I remember looking at that like, Jesus Christ, where did I end up type of thing?

00:40:12.57
Bill
You know, times are tough and I'm here and how the fuck did I get here? This is not part of the plan. But here's the difference, you know, these number of years later when when now when when life gets tough, you know, and. Because, it I mean, life's tough out there for a lot of people right now. Like I was talking about, things are expensive.

00:40:29.02
Bill
Your income drops a little bit at work. Whatever the case is, there's these struggles that we all deal with that are, that's just life. But I don't look at it the same as I did back then. If I'm struggling, there's a huge difference. I know that one way or the other, I will make it through. i don't know how.

00:40:43.32
Bill
I don't know how all this shit's going work out. Whatever it is in this time frame that I've been sober But you get to that point where you you do, and Marty used to tell us the same thing, trust the process. I didn't know what a process was when when we walked in those doors.

00:40:56.64
Bill
I had no hope, no faith. I'm just walking around and fucking following people and hoping that I, like you said, Jim, I don't want to be homeless. That's it, you know?

00:41:05.11
Jim O'Connor
Yeah. I, and so you just reminded me in 2023, at the end of 2023, I took, um, a huge hit life through me, you know, ah not a curve ball, like right.

00:41:18.61
Jim O'Connor
Just hit me right in that face with a ball, with a baseball.

00:41:20.87
Mike
Yeah, yeah, right.

00:41:21.82
Bill
hu

00:41:21.91
Jim O'Connor
And, and, and, you know, I was,

00:41:21.98
Mike
You got you got beat.

00:41:23.48
Bill
hey

00:41:29.16
Jim O'Connor
I was really lost. I was angry, rageful, sad, confused, uncertain, scared.

00:41:35.44
Mike
Mm hmm.

00:41:37.21
Jim O'Connor
um And it was, it was rough. And what kicked in, ah you know, I kind of, added a few meetings to my week.

00:41:47.58
Jim O'Connor
I started bitching and moaning in the rooms to, you know, guys I'd known for a long time and, and some old guys.

00:41:51.13
Mike
he

00:41:55.54
Jim O'Connor
And i remember, and to this day, I will say it was, it was literally the hardest thing I've gone through in sobriety. And I was about eight seven a half, eight, you're almost a year sober.

00:42:02.84
Mike
Right.

00:42:03.06
Bill
Right.

00:42:06.19
Mike
Yeah.

00:42:06.41
Jim O'Connor
And it was a few months. And then in a meeting one, it was about three months later. And, and, you know, you go through those things and, You're in the meetings and you can live and you really can hear yourself.

00:42:18.66
Jim O'Connor
And you're like, I can't stand myself.

00:42:21.11
Mike
a

00:42:21.34
Jim O'Connor
Right. Like I hear myself.

00:42:21.66
Bill
hey

00:42:23.31
Jim O'Connor
Right.

00:42:23.48
Mike
Right.

00:42:23.62
Jim O'Connor
I'm like, I'm that guy.

00:42:24.11
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:42:24.62
Jim O'Connor
I'm like, no, keep doing it. And then finally, just with the little time, um it dawned on me. This can be the worst thing that I've been through um since I got sober and it doesn't hold a candle.

00:42:34.54
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:42:39.19
Jim O'Connor
to what it was like before.

00:42:41.22
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:42:41.34
Bill
Right?

00:42:41.34
Jim O'Connor
And not only does it not hold a candle, this time I know what to do, right?

00:42:41.46
Bill
Right? Right?

00:42:45.69
Mike
Right. Mm-hmm.

00:42:46.45
Jim O'Connor
I've got places to go, I've got people, um i there's a playbook for this.

00:42:52.25
Mike
Yeah.

00:42:52.41
Jim O'Connor
and And, you know, every, my sponsor said at one point, he said, Jimmy, if one more person tells you that ah when God opens, closes one door, or he opens a window, you have my permission to go drink a bottle of Jack Daniels.

00:43:02.21
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:43:05.70
Jim O'Connor
It was every, you know, it was all this, you know, oh, you can't, you won't, you know, you'll be amazed it was, you know, God has in store and he didn't bring you this far just to have you failing.

00:43:05.91
Mike
Mm-hmm. Of course.

00:43:12.47
Mike
Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Right.

00:43:16.54
Jim O'Connor
But and I'm like, oh, fuck yourselves.

00:43:18.87
Mike
Yes, exactly.

00:43:20.44
Jim O'Connor
And God damn it, if it wasn't true, right?

00:43:23.10
Mike
Yeah, of course.

00:43:23.32
Bill
Right. Right.

00:43:24.21
Jim O'Connor
You just had to hang in there and wait.

00:43:26.78
Mike
Yeah, yeah well yeah.

00:43:27.22
Jim O'Connor
um

00:43:27.90
Mike
Keep your feet moving.

00:43:29.11
Jim O'Connor
Right. And that's, you know, that's the process.

00:43:29.98
Mike
Yeah.

00:43:31.19
Jim O'Connor
And that, you know, that is impossible to learn on your own.

00:43:32.47
Mike
It is.

00:43:35.73
Mike
it you know Absolutely.

00:43:35.99
Jim O'Connor
And it's impossible for to learn.

00:43:36.85
Mike
I mean, I'm i'm with you, man.

00:43:38.68
Jim O'Connor
Yeah. It's impossible to learn that in this therapy session.

00:43:39.51
Mike
You know, I just. Yeah, you know.

00:43:42.23
Jim O'Connor
And I'm at the, I do therapy.

00:43:42.37
Bill
Right.

00:43:43.35
Jim O'Connor
Like I go, I'm a counselor, right?

00:43:44.44
Mike
Right.

00:43:45.52
Jim O'Connor
I'm a certified alcohol drug counselor.

00:43:45.59
Mike
Yeah.

00:43:46.99
Jim O'Connor
And I'll say, you know, I'm here to listen, but that's not how it's going to get fixed.

00:43:52.02
Mike
Right.

00:43:52.14
Bill
Right. Right.

00:43:52.79
Mike
Yeah, exactly. I mean, you know, I just, I went through some shit recently myself. It was, it was, it was life-changing and awful and and whatever. And yes, I just, like you said, we have this process in place that we can get through it.

00:44:09.03
Mike
We keep our fucking feet moving. And yes, there were, there were some dark times and there were times where things awful thoughts crossed my head and, and, but I knew what to do with them, you know, because I've been doing this thing for so long.

00:44:22.23
Mike
It's like, okay, man. Okay. And then what, you know, the, the simple thing, play that tape through, you know, and then what, okay, fine, asshole, go do that.

00:44:25.53
Bill
yeah

00:44:27.04
Jim O'Connor
Yeah.

00:44:31.27
Mike
And then what, you know, or, or you do, you keep doing the next right thing, even though you fucking hate the world and you don't want to, and you want to lash out and you want to hurt people.

00:44:32.09
Jim O'Connor
And then what?

00:44:40.79
Mike
And, yeah but, and then what, It's fine. Go hurt somebody. And then what?

00:44:46.71
Jim O'Connor
Well, and you know, what's funny, you know, 90% of the problem, I mean, I had, you know, I had, I had lost a job and, and, you there were financial things going on and and really like, I look back and I'm like, I'm not homeless.

00:44:56.33
Mike
Right.

00:45:00.64
Jim O'Connor
I'm not broke.

00:45:01.05
Mike
if he

00:45:01.53
Jim O'Connor
I'm, I've got a great marriage. I got, you know, I got all these things. Right. But more than anything that sobriety gives me a chance for things to get better.

00:45:04.98
Mike
Right.

00:45:10.60
Bill
Right.

00:45:10.58
Jim O'Connor
Right. Like it's a non-negotiable condition. I have to be in for anything good to happen.

00:45:15.15
Mike
Yep.

00:45:15.84
Bill
Right.

00:45:15.77
Jim O'Connor
And, and most of the time, most of the time, the things that were, that, you know, were making me feel the worst, it was, it was uncertainty and fear.

00:45:15.93
Mike
Yeah.

00:45:24.85
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:45:25.05
Jim O'Connor
Right. Like, I don't like, I need I need to know what's going to happen next.

00:45:25.57
Bill
Right.

00:45:25.56
Mike
Absolutely. Mm-hmm.

00:45:28.33
Jim O'Connor
Now you better, you know, I know. Right. Like, I don't always get that um uncertainty and fear.

00:45:31.06
Mike
yeah No, you don't. Mm-hmm.

00:45:35.10
Bill
Yes.

00:45:36.54
Jim O'Connor
And then I remember thinking like, and okay, so what's really going onm like, I got my feelings hurt.

00:45:42.62
Bill
bright Right.

00:45:42.58
Jim O'Connor
Right. And then I thought nobody died of ever getting their feelings hurt.

00:45:43.27
Bill
Right.

00:45:46.26
Mike
Nope.

00:45:46.81
Jim O'Connor
And by the way, I've been getting my feelings hurt since I was four. Right.

00:45:50.58
Mike
Nope.

00:45:51.62
Jim O'Connor
Like how long?

00:45:52.60
Mike
Nope.

00:45:53.62
Jim O'Connor
That's just, it's been happening forever, you know?

00:45:56.28
Mike
Yeah.

00:45:56.62
Jim O'Connor
And so um it hasn't.

00:45:57.46
Mike
It just hasn't happened in a while because things have been good.

00:45:59.66
Jim O'Connor
Yeah.

00:46:00.30
Mike
Right.

00:46:00.60
Jim O'Connor
Yeah.

00:46:00.82
Mike
Yeah. But so, but it happened again. Okay. And then what?

00:46:03.99
Jim O'Connor
Yeah. It's smarts.

00:46:05.11
Bill
Right.

00:46:07.97
Bill
Well, that's why I laugh so much when Mike says the and then what, because hey he's he says that all the time.

00:46:08.14
Jim O'Connor
Right.

00:46:11.93
Bill
He brings up like, go do the then what, and then what? Because it is, it's that it's so fucking simple just to be like, okay, and then what? You know, it doesn't matter what it is. Do something that's messed up.

00:46:23.37
Bill
Do something that's outside of your character. And then what? What's going to happen next? Now, what do you do? Even if it's a minor thing, but you know, the way we are, we're going to make a big production out of it. It's not going to be a goddamn minor thing. And then we got it. Then we got to deal with that part of it. And, you know, the the other thing, too, is just when you said, Jim, a minute ago, you know how to deal with it now. And that, I think, is the biggest thing is that I thought about the other thing I thought about when you're talking about that is I know now, first of all, when I need help and I know how to ask for it.

00:46:52.70
Bill
And I'm not ashamed to ask for help because the thing of it is and with very, very few circumstances, Um, very few situations. If I need help getting out of something or need help fixing something, um, I, I may have done something, but it wasn't intentional, you know, whereas before when I, when I asked for something was begging for something or I need help fixing something, it was cause I was an asshole.

00:47:08.35
Jim O'Connor
Right.

00:47:15.37
Bill
I was a dumb ass.

00:47:16.25
Jim O'Connor
Yeah.

00:47:16.37
Bill
I was fucking everything up.

00:47:18.23
Mike
I broke it.

00:47:18.30
Bill
And I'm like, you Yeah.

00:47:18.99
Mike
Now you fix it.

00:47:20.09
Jim O'Connor
Yeah.

00:47:20.96
Bill
It's not even, yeah, could you help me fix it? Could you buy me a new one type of thing? But, you know, that's the other thing too, is having that comfort realizing that, okay, we're, we're still, we're all human. We're going to make mistakes.

00:47:31.67
Bill
We're going to need somebody to lean on every once in a while. It might talk about, Mike and I talk about it every once in a while too, that sometimes I don't necessarily need, I don't need anyone to fix anything.

00:47:42.14
Bill
I just need to tell, you know, I just need to get this shit out of my head and either I can figure it out, you know, or,

00:47:44.45
Jim O'Connor
Oh yeah.

00:47:48.92
Bill
you know i can i can get ill I'll tell you when I need your help. Sometimes I just need to vent. But the other thing, too, that we figured out, or I figured out, I didn't realize until we were doing this.

00:47:59.05
Bill
So sometime in the last four and a half years since we were doing this podcast, that everything, everything, all my problems, all my issues, all my all the things that are that could be negative or bad in my life are all fear-based.

00:48:11.84
Jim O'Connor
Yeah.

00:48:12.50
Bill
That was like, really? i didn't know that. But now, I mean, we...

00:48:15.16
Mike
He he he.

00:48:15.58
Jim O'Connor
Yeah.

00:48:16.73
Bill
I figured it out on here. We were talking about something. I'm like, like well, what about this? And Mike's like, fear-based. Talk about whatever, fear-based.

00:48:21.98
Mike
He he he.

00:48:22.77
Bill
I'm like, how can that?

00:48:23.18
Mike
He he he he.

00:48:23.45
Bill
I'm like, God damn it, that is.

00:48:23.66
Jim O'Connor
Yeah.

00:48:25.24
Bill
So we we hit we literally had that conversation in an episode. I'm like i'm like a child. I'm like, huh, really? i i was just I never knew. But really, you could take anything.

00:48:35.55
Bill
Sooner or later, just you know filter it down a little bit. going to find the fear in it. It's just stupid, but it it makes things a little bit easier knowing that that's the that's the thing.

00:48:43.81
Jim O'Connor
And, you know, it's it's actually, I mean, it's actually bad shit when you think about, again, go back to those weeks and months before getting sober, right?

00:48:49.14
Mike
m

00:48:54.10
Jim O'Connor
Like, I literally didn't have any, like, that, like, why wasn't I much more afraid then?

00:48:54.42
Mike
Right.

00:48:54.76
Bill
Oh, yeah.

00:48:59.93
Jim O'Connor
Like, I should have been terrified, right?

00:49:01.00
Bill
Right. Right.

00:49:02.01
Mike
Right.

00:49:03.29
Jim O'Connor
Like, I got court cases, I've got no license, I've got no prospects, but I'm like, no, I'm just going to plow through. Right?

00:49:10.71
Mike
sir

00:49:11.25
Jim O'Connor
Right.

00:49:11.58
Bill
here

00:49:11.85
Jim O'Connor
just utterly determined in the face of like certain death. And, you know, now things are good and, you know, you you get antsy and and you need answers.

00:49:23.58
Mike
Yeah.

00:49:23.81
Jim O'Connor
I i was talking in this um in this nonprofit thing, right, that I founded and and that that we've been doing for, you know, since 2022 now. um We've had some big projects, um you know, a lot of money, you know, in my mind, they come in and go in through, you know through the organization um and and great programs.

00:49:43.05
Mike
Right.

00:49:45.66
Jim O'Connor
And we've had times where, you know, I'm looking out and I'm like, God, money is tight. Where's it going to come from? You know, it it gets really scary sometimes. And I was talking to a pastor friend of mine who's a pastor and i was i was, you know, complaining about this.

00:49:54.19
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:50:00.50
Jim O'Connor
And he said, Jimmy, God is never early and he is never late

00:50:01.34
Bill
hey

00:50:04.77
Mike
Right.

00:50:05.50
Bill
Hey.

00:50:06.16
Jim O'Connor
And I can't fuck if that guy, you know, wasn't right. Like I've had, I've had everything I need, not more, not often a lot more, sometimes not more, but not less.

00:50:11.93
Mike
Yeah.

00:50:16.42
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:50:18.81
Mike
Right.

00:50:19.75
Jim O'Connor
And it's been right on time.

00:50:21.72
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:50:21.88
Jim O'Connor
um And so, you know, i think the ah flip side to what's next, what next, what's next, when you get enough time and you guys have that time, um right? that Sober.

00:50:33.06
Jim O'Connor
And I feel like I turned a corner, know, in the last couple of years. You start seeing like a long view.

00:50:40.58
Mike
Yeah.

00:50:41.33
Jim O'Connor
And you see guys who are 20, 30, 40 years sober. These old guys, you know, have been saying the same shit and they and you realize that, you know, they've been right the whole time.

00:50:50.39
Mike
Right.

00:50:50.84
Jim O'Connor
ah um And you're kind you're never going quite catch up. But I started thinking, you know, some really bad moments like, okay, just is is this how it ends?

00:51:01.85
Jim O'Connor
Is it? Is this it? And I'm like, no, this isn't it.

00:51:03.77
Mike
Right.

00:51:04.98
Jim O'Connor
This isn't it.

00:51:05.21
Mike
This isn't it.

00:51:06.49
Jim O'Connor
Right? Like, this isn't how it ends.

00:51:07.32
Mike
Yeah.

00:51:08.41
Jim O'Connor
Right?

00:51:09.04
Mike
Yeah.

00:51:09.43
Jim O'Connor
um If I pick up a drink, I don't like that's really you want to be uncertain, like no idea what happens after that.

00:51:15.02
Mike
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

00:51:18.70
Jim O'Connor
That's just I know a few things um and they're all awful.

00:51:19.10
Mike
Right. Yeah. Oh, every yeah.

00:51:21.59
Bill
right

00:51:21.86
Mike
there's There's some certainties.

00:51:23.02
Jim O'Connor
They're all awful.

00:51:23.22
Mike
Yes. it Yes, they are.

00:51:23.77
Bill
and

00:51:24.89
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:51:25.79
Jim O'Connor
But it gets really bad after that. I'm like, maybe it ends like that. Like that might be. And and as long as I don't drink, I have no idea how it ends.

00:51:32.85
Mike
Right.

00:51:33.08
Jim O'Connor
um Right.

00:51:34.23
Mike
And that's good.

00:51:34.29
Jim O'Connor
And, and, and living with that is kind of, you know, if you can make a game out of that and make it exciting, um do good things, you know, it, it beats the alternative.

00:51:43.70
Mike
Absolutely.

00:51:43.99
Bill
right exactly so what do you what do you think mike good time

00:51:45.98
Mike
yeah Yeah, that's fucking perfect time. We're going to come back and we're going to find out what the hell's going on with this organization right after these words from our sponsors.

00:52:07.70
Bill
All right, everyone, welcome back. And yes, this organization. So, um I mean, all all in all, everything that that you guys have been working through, and you said, I guess I didn't i didn't remember that it had been since 2022, but I mean, literally big things though in the last couple of years, I mean, obviously with the grants and the the building and all of the kind of getting everything rolling with the farm and all that stuff.

00:52:13.31
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:52:22.32
Jim O'Connor
Mm-hmm.

00:52:31.09
Bill
So quick question, because you said that, I mean, this grant just came in recently, right? So when when does all this, um i don't know, your your construction start? When do you start getting into more of a full force type of thing?

00:52:41.24
Jim O'Connor
Yeah, so, um

00:52:44.22
Mike
Right. Right. Right.

00:52:45.82
Jim O'Connor
you know, the funny, it's it's, so our total project cost is going to be around five, five and a half million. And and we've got, yeah, we've got a little over two now.

00:52:53.38
Bill
my God. Wow.

00:52:57.25
Jim O'Connor
And when I got the call, um I was floored, gobsmacked for a minute. And I'm like, oh my God, fuck. Like, we got a lot to do.

00:53:06.52
Mike
right

00:53:08.09
Jim O'Connor
And right. And, and it was, it took me a week and I called my buddy and my partner in this. And I said, you know, I have to make a commitment. Um, to develop a mindset where these $2 million dollars is not a fucking problem.

00:53:22.89
Jim O'Connor
It's going to solve problems.

00:53:23.36
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:53:23.93
Jim O'Connor
Right. I was acting like, a you know, total alcoholic.

00:53:24.54
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:53:24.92
Bill
right

00:53:26.83
Jim O'Connor
I'm like 2 million, but I need five.

00:53:28.73
Mike
Right.

00:53:29.31
Jim O'Connor
Mike, this is bullshit. it Right.

00:53:31.10
Mike
Beautiful.

00:53:31.16
Bill
hey

00:53:33.14
Jim O'Connor
it's like, my wife looked at me, my wife, looked me she goes, Oh, you're going to be okay.

00:53:34.30
Mike
Yep.

00:53:37.07
Jim O'Connor
You just won $2 million. dollars

00:53:38.60
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:53:40.39
Jim O'Connor
I'm like, all right. yeah It's going to be a good thing. And um so the, the,

00:53:42.65
Mike
ye

00:53:45.02
Jim O'Connor
The grant we got and some, we and I should also say our county, Wood County has been like so crazy supportive.

00:53:52.28
Mike
he

00:53:52.41
Jim O'Connor
You know, there's, there's three buckets of money that we knew we had to raise when we started out. And the first is property acquisition. The second is capital for construction.

00:54:01.77
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:54:01.72
Jim O'Connor
And the third is ongoing operations.

00:54:03.86
Mike
Right.

00:54:04.01
Bill
Right.

00:54:04.14
Jim O'Connor
And for the project that we have, you know, but you know build a recovery campus that includes workforce development, long-term recovery, step-down housing, or a recovery community organization, and a residential 15-bed recovery home um we knew that I knew that I wasn't just going to be able to like sell that vision wholesale and get everything I wanted.

00:54:26.73
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:54:27.21
Jim O'Connor
so The property acquisition, we figured out we got great help from ah an organization called IFF in Chicago to help us buy the farm. And so we proved that we could do that.

00:54:38.21
Jim O'Connor
And and and we got that but that bucket, you know, taken care of.

00:54:39.20
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:54:42.72
Jim O'Connor
The next two buckets are construction and operations.

00:54:43.10
Mike
Right.

00:54:46.27
Jim O'Connor
um Capital is its own thing. So the $2 million dollars we got, like we can't put that towards salaries, insurance, insurance.

00:54:53.10
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:54:53.21
Jim O'Connor
um you know, healthcare, care and anything else, it's got to go to construction, which is great.

00:54:58.92
Mike
Right.

00:54:59.74
Jim O'Connor
um The

00:55:06.52
Jim O'Connor
And so we've got to do some work um getting a bridge financing deal together to start construction.

00:55:07.08
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:55:13.29
Jim O'Connor
If we get it together, we'll put shovels in the ground October, November at the latest.

00:55:19.02
Mike
Mm.

00:55:19.10
Jim O'Connor
um Otherwise we're going to have to wait till spring. I'm going to try to try like hell to make sure that doesn't happen.

00:55:21.91
Mike
Right.

00:55:23.79
Jim O'Connor
And that's just because of weather.

00:55:24.52
Mike
Mm-hmm. Right.

00:55:25.98
Jim O'Connor
um And that that construction project, you know, hopefully we'll start October, November. um And if we can get under, if we can get the the buildings under shell, under roof, by December we'll crank through the winter and they'll be completed April or May of 27.

00:55:37.52
Bill
Right.

00:55:43.10
Mike
Mm.

00:55:43.64
Jim O'Connor
And in the meantime, the you know we talked about the government you know funding. um When I looked at these buckets, you know i thought Capital for construction, like that's a good use of state money.

00:55:57.57
Jim O'Connor
It's got a really high return on investment because it sticks around. It's not like spending, you know, $3 million a year for three years on a wellness program for people who, and it's, oh right.

00:56:02.48
Mike
Sure.

00:56:06.36
Mike
Yeah. you Creating equity. Actual.

00:56:09.31
Jim O'Connor
where And it's just over.

00:56:10.33
Mike
Yeah.

00:56:10.34
Jim O'Connor
When it's over, it's over. Like, and you don't have anything to show for it.

00:56:11.96
Mike
Yeah. Mm-hmm.

00:56:14.02
Jim O'Connor
So we have a really high return on investment. We thought, all right, that, you know, that's something we can do with the state. And then ongoing operations is something that we said, you know, we're going to, we're going to fund this privately.

00:56:19.87
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:56:24.82
Jim O'Connor
um We know that if we, if we,

00:56:25.35
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:56:30.27
Jim O'Connor
you know put all these pieces together, you know the the work, housing, community um recovery support, you know the clinical supports when necessary.

00:56:41.48
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:56:41.46
Jim O'Connor
The outcomes are just so much better than any other program around, at least in Illinois and in the Midwest.

00:56:47.10
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:56:48.39
Jim O'Connor
um Our outcomes are are really nuts.

00:56:49.20
Bill
Right.

00:56:50.64
Jim O'Connor
Guys are projected to complete the program with at least one year sober, a good job, and they're their name on a lease.

00:56:56.30
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:56:58.62
Mike
Right.

00:56:59.19
Jim O'Connor
And, you know, at least in and around Chicago and Illinois, we have some, you know, really generous family foundations, high net worth families and people who are willing to give if you can show them that you're doing something unique and that the return on investment is high.

00:57:07.71
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:57:15.32
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:57:17.86
Mike
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

00:57:18.39
Jim O'Connor
um So, you know, we're always raising money privately for operations for salaries. You know, insurance costs are through the roof these days on everything.

00:57:29.18
Mike
me

00:57:29.59
Jim O'Connor
um

00:57:29.87
Bill
Right.

00:57:30.68
Jim O'Connor
Horse feed, you know, we've got all our workforce development program. um where We raise money for that privately. And, you know, God willing, the creek don't rise. we'll We'll have half our project built by April of 27. And between now and then, we'll raise the money for the Lodzian residences.

00:57:50.72
Mike
Cool.

00:57:51.43
Bill
Right. Yeah. I mean, that's a that's an aggressive plan, though. They get to get the I mean, like because that's the thing I was thinking. that's what Mike even says. October type of thing is we you know, we all live around here. You know, we're all in the Midwestern people, you know, and I mean, October and November can be wonderful and beautiful months.

00:58:02.91
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:58:07.45
Bill
Um, or they can't be, you know, and, um, yeah, to get them, like you said, Jim, to get, if you can get everything, get a, get a roof and a shell on the, on these buildings in that amount of time, well, you got, you got all the time in the world.

00:58:18.61
Bill
You know, it feels like that over the winter time to get everything on the inside done, but yeah, you gotta, you gotta get some sort of protection on that.

00:58:19.04
Jim O'Connor
Right.

00:58:25.03
Bill
But, um,

00:58:25.72
Jim O'Connor
And how yeah I'll tell you something, how we've gone forward since the beginning is nuts. um You know, when we started this, I have no idea how to do any of the things that that we've done, none.

00:58:34.46
Bill
right, right.

00:58:35.99
Jim O'Connor
And and i I made a couple of, you know, commitments to my higher power. And one of them was I'll go anywhere and and talk to anybody about this and we'll just go from there.

00:58:45.13
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:58:46.16
Jim O'Connor
And when we partnered with a construction project management team, were also our architects and engineers, the Aspen group, they, they set out three timelines.

00:58:57.47
Jim O'Connor
They said, okay, if you have all the money, we could, you know, pick a fast timeline. This is what, how long it would take if you had some of the money and then got some later. And then there's a third timeline that's like, yeah, we don't know what we're doing, but we're going to try to screw around here.

00:59:07.48
Mike
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

00:59:13.05
Jim O'Connor
And um my buddy and I said, look well, let's pick the fast timeline. Like, why not?

00:59:18.20
Mike
Yeah, right.

00:59:18.38
Jim O'Connor
Like we, yeah nobody's told us no yet. Like we can't, And we'll just go on that one.

00:59:21.94
Bill
ah

00:59:22.20
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:59:25.02
Jim O'Connor
And that was 18 months ago. And we have been on that fast track the entire time and not once has it felt like it.

00:59:33.35
Mike
Wow.

00:59:33.38
Bill
Right.

00:59:33.82
Jim O'Connor
Not once has it felt like it. And, you know, the money that we've raised over the last 18 months to get here and keep on this fast track, it has been what I said. God's never early and he's never late.

00:59:45.71
Jim O'Connor
We've had just enough to keep going a little further.

00:59:47.86
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:59:50.31
Jim O'Connor
um And then, you know, we're like, hey, this gets us money also buys time, right? Like, it's not just it moves things along.

00:59:55.74
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:59:57.89
Jim O'Connor
And, you know, so now we can say, well, this is how long it takes for this part of the project to get built. We have nine months to see about coming up with the other half. And, you know, one of the other things that I said, um my my wife and our board of directors, you know, at the beginning, they're, you know, they're like, how the fuck are you going to do that?

01:00:18.39
Jim O'Connor
I know they were, they thought I was crazy.

01:00:20.44
Mike
Sure.

01:00:20.79
Jim O'Connor
And, you know, particularly my wife is like, we're fucked. um This can't happen. And I said, i i remember she asked, how will you know when to stop?

01:00:32.34
Jim O'Connor
Like, how will you know when this isn't working? Right.

01:00:34.78
Mike
She asked an alcoholic that, did she?

01:00:35.19
Bill
right

01:00:37.69
Jim O'Connor
Right?

01:00:37.81
Mike
Right, exactly.

01:00:38.34
Bill
that's that's the that's That's why so hard.

01:00:38.29
Jim O'Connor
I'm

01:00:39.59
Mike
No, we don't. We're never going to have that answer.

01:00:44.29
Jim O'Connor
but like, right?

01:00:47.21
Mike
Uh-huh.

01:00:48.69
Jim O'Connor
Well, I don't know, right? And so,

01:00:50.42
Mike
right exactly no we yeah i did we don't we we do we never going to have that answer

01:00:55.41
Jim O'Connor
no, right? And so, i my answer to that was, i will keep going until God puts up ah a wall that's a hard no.

01:01:00.70
Mike
aho

01:01:03.54
Mike
Right.

01:01:03.99
Jim O'Connor
Right?

01:01:04.82
Mike
hmm. Yep.

01:01:05.88
Jim O'Connor
Right.

01:01:05.97
Bill
Right.

01:01:06.44
Jim O'Connor
It'll it'll literally be an undeniable go no further.

01:01:11.80
Mike
Sure.

01:01:12.25
Bill
Right.

01:01:12.34
Jim O'Connor
Right.

01:01:12.51
Bill
Right.

01:01:12.66
Jim O'Connor
And it'll it won't be it won't be a person that told me that it'll be all you know, I'll know it'll be it'll be God saying that's that's it.

01:01:16.64
Mike
Mm hmm.

01:01:19.70
Mike
Yeah.

01:01:20.47
Jim O'Connor
Right.

01:01:21.30
Mike
Mm hmm.

01:01:21.94
Jim O'Connor
And that has not happened.

01:01:23.96
Mike
Right.

01:01:24.06
Jim O'Connor
And it's not just my imagination. Like we just get a little more and a little more of what we need.

01:01:26.66
Mike
Yeah.

01:01:30.33
Jim O'Connor
and And, you know, I get pissed because I would really like all of it all of it at once.

01:01:36.44
Mike
Of course.

01:01:36.54
Jim O'Connor
um I would love to have everything we need and just go. But I think um in God's plan, we're learning how to manage along the way, right? And not quit.

01:01:46.52
Mike
Right. Well, I mean, that's kind of the whole program that you're building.

01:01:46.91
Jim O'Connor
And it's the whole thing, isn't it?

01:01:50.62
Mike
Yeah, it's the whole program that you're building, right?

01:01:51.09
Bill
All

01:01:53.06
Mike
it's it's Yeah, you're doing exactly what you're building.

01:01:53.31
Jim O'Connor
Yeah, and it's the whole...

01:01:56.46
Mike
That's the beautiful part of this thing. don't Don't forget that, man, right?

01:01:59.93
Jim O'Connor
Yeah.

01:02:00.54
Mike
The guys coming in, they don't know what the fuck they're doing. Hey, that's a horse. I think I recognize that's a horse, right?

01:02:06.12
Bill
right.

01:02:06.62
Mike
That's the front end and that's the back end, i think, right?

01:02:09.21
Jim O'Connor
Yeah, and it's the same thing.

01:02:09.98
Mike
Yeah, so you're doing the same thing just on a bigger level.

01:02:13.29
Jim O'Connor
And it's, it's i told I've told guys I've worked with for years, like, you can't get three months sober in one month.

01:02:13.70
Mike
It's the same fucking thing.

01:02:22.14
Mike
yeah Right.

01:02:22.42
Bill
Right, right.

01:02:22.53
Mike
Uh-huh.

01:02:22.79
Jim O'Connor
Right. We all want, I want a year sober in six months. Can I have, I'm going to work so hard in those first six months that I deserve everything that comes with two years sober.

01:02:28.06
Mike
Right. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

01:02:33.39
Jim O'Connor
You know, look at me, look at how great I'm doing.

01:02:33.52
Bill
Right.

01:02:33.65
Mike
Give me a five-year coin.

01:02:37.43
Mike
Uh-huh.

01:02:38.02
Jim O'Connor
Right.

01:02:38.14
Mike
Yeah.

01:02:38.94
Jim O'Connor
um I get to skip the other stuff and it just doesn't work like that.

01:02:42.10
Mike
Yeah. Right.

01:02:43.74
Bill
Right.

01:02:43.77
Jim O'Connor
Right. And so I've said for a long time in recovery, um time is the work.

01:02:44.73
Mike
Yeah.

01:02:49.56
Bill
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:02:49.62
Mike
Mm-hmm.

01:02:50.23
Jim O'Connor
Right. Time is the work. And so we're just we keep putting in time and we take whatever is given to us and we try to make take, you know, donations, grants, um volunteer work.

01:02:52.34
Mike
Yeah. Yep.

01:03:03.04
Jim O'Connor
You know, we take what we're given and we try to make something bigger out of it.

01:03:06.86
Mike
Yep.

01:03:07.51
Bill
you know, it's funny. There was a, um in any anyone who is in the Cleveland area or was knows the name Jack Mulhall. And he's a guy that was um important, even for for those of us that didn't spend a lot of time with him, you know, over the years.

01:03:22.11
Bill
Cleveland AA revolved a lot around Jack. And then this other lady, Phyllis, who we we knew because she was with Marty, running the heating center and all that stuff. But um Years ago, when my my dad had told me this because my dad knew Jack.

01:03:34.00
Bill
And he would say that my dad dad said this and Marty said this, all these other people that Jack was in the mindset. He's like, we're going to go and we're going to get this building and we're going to get this many people in here. And this is what we're going to do with it.

01:03:45.21
Bill
People are like well, how are you going to do that? He goes, that that's not going to work. And he said, of course, it's going to work. And then he would just fucking do it, you know.

01:03:49.80
Jim O'Connor
Yeah.

01:03:51.16
Bill
And he was, he was, he just kept doing these things and kept pushing these things. He ran ah a recovery facility downtown and then split it up, split off on his own with Phyllis. ah My dad was involved because he was my dad's sponsor.

01:04:02.72
Bill
My dad helped him find one building. And then Marty was involved. Marty took over when Jack died. There's this whole thing. But I mean, Marty runs a lot on Jack's vision is one way the other. going to get this shit done, you know?

01:04:13.80
Mike
Right.

01:04:13.86
Bill
And like when we first went in there and Mike says it all the time, we were stacked up like cordwood, you know?

01:04:18.42
Mike
he

01:04:18.62
Bill
And it was bunk beds and it was as many as you could fit in there. And it was against probably any and all fire codes. And there was there was firemen that used to come in they would do their inspections, but nobody said anything until they did.

01:04:23.67
Mike
Oh, yeah.

01:04:26.96
Mike
Right. Mm-hmm.

01:04:28.62
Bill
and then now don't they have, they don't have the the bunk beds and shit like that.

01:04:28.79
Mike
here

01:04:32.47
Mike
No, no, no, no. they Well, they're in a new building, and yes, it's it's a sprinkler.

01:04:35.45
Bill
Yeah.

01:04:37.63
Mike
Oh, I mean, we had Firewatch, remember?

01:04:40.38
Bill
Yep. Yeah.

01:04:40.57
Mike
two guys had to stay Two guys had to stay awake all night.

01:04:40.66
Bill
yeah

01:04:44.43
Mike
Yeah, there was l yeah that's how we had to, that's how because there was no sprinkler system, and that's how they got away with it.

01:04:44.73
Jim O'Connor
Oh, stop.

01:04:46.55
Bill
Yeah. Every night. Yep.

01:04:49.86
Jim O'Connor
Oh, that's awesome.

01:04:51.45
Mike
they They went to the fire department said, look, we're going to have two guys stay awake all night, watch this place, and make sure if something happens, we'll get everybody out. And they went, okay. And so, yeah.

01:05:01.94
Jim O'Connor
Yeah. You know,

01:05:02.68
Bill
Yeah, and we did that every once in a while. the there was There was only one while two benefits.

01:05:05.46
Mike
Oh, yeah.

01:05:07.78
Bill
Sometimes it was just kind of fun, you know, fucking around with your with your buddy. Or, you know, sometimes it was a few of us. He made, like, a handful of three-quarter guys, like, made all of us stay up, to stay up for Firewatch one night.

01:05:17.38
Mike
Mm-hmm.

01:05:18.38
Bill
And we had a fucking blast because they we get this we got this Panera used to come in, and they would bring literally bags of of food.

01:05:19.81
Jim O'Connor
right

01:05:26.30
Bill
You know, it was it was a bread.

01:05:26.79
Jim O'Connor
Oh, yeah, the bread that the stuff that they that yeah that they were going to throw out.

01:05:30.16
Bill
Oh yeah.

01:05:30.23
Mike
Yeah.

01:05:30.81
Bill
Yeah. We, every, every day, every day, like it baked,

01:05:31.21
Mike
Right.

01:05:32.12
Jim O'Connor
I know exactly what that bag looks like.

01:05:34.84
Bill
Oh, yeah, and it's clear bags full of just, you know, food, you know?

01:05:34.90
Mike
Mm-hmm.

01:05:36.89
Jim O'Connor
Yep.

01:05:37.56
Bill
And then, you know, there was only certain things we were supposed to keep, but then get these fucking animals, which is us, and we're like, eating all this other shit.

01:05:43.24
Mike
Yep. Yeah. Yeah,

01:05:45.17
Bill
And then this other guy, you remember Bill um F. that used to come in and he'd bring, he ran a, yeah um worked for like a catering company or something like that, so they'd have this huge reception.

01:05:47.77
Mike
yeah, yeah.

01:05:54.26
Bill
So they'd bring in, he'd bring in these trays of, um I mean, this gourmet, this gourmet food, and Marty's like, Bill's coming in tonight to do this and do that.

01:06:00.46
Mike
Mm-hmm.

01:06:03.59
Bill
You little fuckers, don't take any of it. We would have meals.

01:06:07.35
Mike
Oh yeah.

01:06:07.76
Bill
Bill would bring it in. Bill would walk out the door and we'd make a big plate full of this shit and put the rest in there, even it all out so it didn't look like you know look like anyone ate it.

01:06:15.31
Mike
Mm-hmm.

01:06:16.48
Bill
um But other than that, I mean, you were just fucking dead tired. But yeah, we used to get good food every once in a while. But yeah, that's i you know to begin with, it was just so funny. It's like, well, what do you mean we're going to stay up all night? And basically, it's just you got make sure the place doesn't fucking burn down.

01:06:28.35
Bill
Yeah.

01:06:28.60
Mike
Yo.

01:06:28.79
Jim O'Connor
so So that's the story of like how we are pulling off most things um and what and what we try to teach guys that will come in our program.

01:06:33.36
Mike
Mm-hmm.

01:06:33.50
Bill
Right,

01:06:36.79
Jim O'Connor
and And I think one of the, if there's a superpower for people, you know, that go through this and come out the other side, you wake up and you just do whatever the fuck today calls for.

01:06:45.26
Mike
Uh-huh.

01:06:51.16
Mike
Yep.

01:06:51.35
Bill
right. right

01:06:52.31
Jim O'Connor
Right. You start to learn how to go to work and just and and oh, no I don't do this.

01:06:53.14
Mike
Yeah.

01:06:57.43
Jim O'Connor
I don't do that now. Fuck, you got to do whatever today calls for.

01:06:59.11
Mike
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.

01:07:01.59
Jim O'Connor
And and today's fire watch. Right.

01:07:03.96
Mike
Yeah.

01:07:04.07
Jim O'Connor
You're like, fuck, but be up all night.

01:07:04.57
Mike
Right. Yep.

01:07:06.62
Jim O'Connor
Whatever. Fine. Right.

01:07:08.39
Mike
Yep.

01:07:08.79
Jim O'Connor
um And that teaches you right as you go forward, you're like, hey, I don't wake up and say, i you know, I only do this.

01:07:11.00
Mike
Yes.

01:07:15.19
Jim O'Connor
I only do that. I can't do this.

01:07:16.39
Mike
Uh-huh.

01:07:16.71
Jim O'Connor
I can't do that.

01:07:17.72
Mike
Right.

01:07:17.95
Jim O'Connor
It's let's go like boots on.

01:07:19.35
Mike
Yeah.

01:07:19.81
Jim O'Connor
Let's go.

01:07:20.79
Mike
Yep. That's it. Yes.

01:07:22.52
Bill
Yeah.

01:07:22.95
Mike
I'm going to do whatever it fucking takes to get through today. Yeah.

01:07:25.82
Jim O'Connor
Yeah.

01:07:26.55
Mike
Yeah. Yeah.

01:07:26.89
Jim O'Connor
Don't know what it is. Tomorrow might be different.

01:07:28.06
Mike
Right.

01:07:28.54
Jim O'Connor
Like, right.

01:07:28.89
Mike
Oh, it it will be.

01:07:30.49
Bill
right

01:07:30.94
Jim O'Connor
And I'll just do that.

01:07:31.06
Bill
yeah

01:07:32.66
Mike
Yeah.

01:07:32.86
Jim O'Connor
um And, and, you know, guys who can come out the other side of that and do that are great workers.

01:07:38.37
Mike
Yep.

01:07:38.34
Jim O'Connor
They're better fathers. They're better. You know, they're just better people.

01:07:40.51
Mike
Mm-hmm. Yes. Yes.

01:07:42.66
Bill
Right.

01:07:43.06
Mike
Exactly. Exactly.

01:07:44.47
Bill
Well, and and that's the thing, too. like Like you had said before, we were talking about, you know, these days, but even these days, you know, we've we've all got some time under our belts. And, you know, life is never, life-life is never perfect.

01:07:54.67
Bill
and There's always things that's doubling blocks and there's all these different things. You know, Mike had just mentioned it. I mean, all we've all been through some shit, you know. But the but the thing of it is, it just seems to be at at that time, There's always something or somebody that makes it worthwhile.

01:08:08.78
Bill
You know, maybe it's one of my kids that says something to me. Maybe it's Mike that says something to me.

01:08:11.67
Mike
Mm hmm.

01:08:12.85
Bill
Maybe it's our sister. Maybe you're just out in in the world and, you know, you were in the right place at the right time to help somebody, you know, and it's just something as simple as it doesn't even it doesn't even really matter what it is.

01:08:14.20
Mike
Right.

01:08:20.11
Mike
Yeah.

01:08:25.38
Bill
Then you're like, okay, so you know what, who the fuck am I to be complaining about this? And we've said that on here, I don't know how many times, because I, I tend to bitch and moan about a lot of things.

01:08:33.02
Mike
Mm hmm.

01:08:36.24
Bill
I try not to, you know, i try not to complain about little things, but this is the, this is the luxury of having a little bit of time and getting some good things back in our lives. And again, having that, having that flow for the most part, every, you know, every day.

01:08:48.64
Bill
And then shit gets weird and you're like, well, fuck me and fuck you and fuck all these goddamn people. I don't want to, I don't want to drink today. That's not the problem, but I want to be a crabby motherfucker because this shit didn't go my way.

01:09:00.25
Bill
And then you see something or whatever and you're like, well, who the fuck am I? You know, who am I to be that guy?

01:09:04.98
Mike
Yup.

01:09:07.09
Bill
You know?

01:09:08.26
Jim O'Connor
A guy That message I've got.

01:09:08.47
Bill
I need to be I forget to be grateful. I need to be grateful. um And that's a fact I do forget to be grateful. But it just it's sometimes just getting back in remembering to be simple.

01:09:20.66
Bill
And that's really difficult to be simple, you know.

01:09:20.97
Mike
Mm-hmm.

01:09:23.90
Jim O'Connor
ah a guy and that I've been going to meetings with for a bunch of years, that whom I really respect. He's got 20 plus years and he's hilarious, but he'll come in the rooms and he'll say, you know, I haven't had a drink in over 20 years. I'm not likely to. i come here because I don't want to cheat on my wife.

01:09:44.12
Bill
Right, right, yeah.

01:09:44.19
Mike
Yeah.

01:09:44.65
Jim O'Connor
He says, i don't want, he goes, I'm just trying to be a good guy.

01:09:48.60
Mike
Yeah.

01:09:49.07
Jim O'Connor
And so I come here, right? And he goes, and I talk to you guys and I listen to you guys and you guys set me straight in one way or the other, you know, no matter what, right?

01:09:51.00
Mike
Yeah.

01:09:55.38
Mike
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

01:09:58.90
Mike
Right.

01:09:58.94
Jim O'Connor
Coming and telling myself, um you know, all the things, right? just Just this program helps me be a decent guy. That's just all I'm shooting for.

01:10:08.24
Mike
Yep. Yep.

01:10:10.62
Bill
Right. Yeah. And it's ah sometimes like you, like you said to you to begin with, like, you know, these new guys coming through your your program, when all of us were new and you do, you get out. And I remember specifically getting out for that, you know, that first job or going on interviews and and realizing that, you know, that for the first time in my life, when I walk out of this gate and I go out here and I start dealing with these people, quote unquote, um First of all, they don't know that I'm trying to get sober because you mentioned, you know nobody caring that you're trying to get sober. Sometimes that, you know, the outside people don't even know.

01:10:44.17
Bill
And if they did, they wouldn't give a fuck anyhow.

01:10:44.55
Jim O'Connor
Right.

01:10:46.53
Bill
You know, so they don't know what I'm what I'm dealing with. Again, well, not that I'm dealing with a lot, but whatever. They don't know that I'm trying. I'm newly sober. I'm trying to do this. I'm just trying to keep my shit together. You know, but they're out there doing whatever they do and they don't realize that now I've got I've got rules and I got a book and I got meetings that I go to and I have this structure that I need to abide by.

01:11:02.73
Mike
Yep.

01:11:05.17
Bill
And you're fucking with it and I can't do anything about it.

01:11:08.62
Jim O'Connor
you know what You know what's funny is everything you just described is absolutely commonplace. And everything you just described is like you walk out and in your head, i am setting the table to be a victim any and everywhere.

01:11:19.13
Bill
right

01:11:22.01
Mike
Aha.

01:11:22.62
Bill
Yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:11:24.04
Mike
Y'all.

01:11:24.61
Jim O'Connor
Right? i'm just i'm prepared I'm prepared to be pissed off because the world is out there and they don't know who I am, what I'm doing, what I'm dealing with.

01:11:25.94
Bill
And then

01:11:32.94
Mike
Mm-hmm.

01:11:34.14
Bill
Right. And then and then now now the thing of it is, is that it might Michael talk about it every once in a while, too.

01:11:34.36
Jim O'Connor
Right? Right.

01:11:38.82
Bill
You know, you get out there and and you get all these people that are, you know, that it's the same people that we' we're dealing with 16 years ago. But but we're different now. You know, we we understand that they don't have the the book and the rules and all that sort of stuff.

01:11:49.91
Bill
And we can just shake our heads. And what, you know, sometimes makes it even better is that. Number one, it wouldn't help us to get mad at him anyhow. It wouldn't help us to lose our shit on him anyhow.

01:11:56.57
Jim O'Connor
Right.

01:11:58.55
Bill
But a lot of times it's a lot more it's a lot more fun to not you know even react to it. Just like like Mike says, Mike's one of favorite lines is, let him whirl. Let this whirl, let that whirl.

01:12:08.11
Mike
Mm-hmm.

01:12:08.83
Bill
Just let it fucking whirl. Um, which is not always easy, but man, it just, it makes life a lot easier. But yeah, that's a good point, Jim, is that yeah, setting yourself up to be a victim.

01:12:19.37
Bill
Don't you know what I'm dealing with? And it's the same thing.

01:12:21.34
Mike
fifty

01:12:22.25
Bill
It's, it's the same mentalities we had when we were drinking, you know, don't you know what I'm dealing with? That's why I'm drinking so much. This is what I went through this. I'm the victim of this. And then you walk out, you know, three, four months sober, you're the same fucking guy.

01:12:33.42
Bill
You still want to play the victim. You just don't, you just have different breath, you know?

01:12:36.82
Jim O'Connor
Yeah.

01:12:37.02
Bill
Yeah.

01:12:37.74
Jim O'Connor
The, um you know, and it's, it sounds like you guys went through a really good program that, you know, I've seen, I've seen, you know, a couple that I've worked with in, and, you know,

01:12:42.42
Bill
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:12:48.91
Jim O'Connor
where there was like a, it was kind of like a daycare where, you know, where these guys had come into a program and they had everything, you know, taken care of, taken care of for them. And they had a therapist who was telling them, you know, that, you know, their feelings are really important, all this stuff.

01:12:58.66
Mike
Mm-hmm.

01:13:03.16
Jim O'Connor
And I'm not putting that down.

01:13:03.84
Mike
Uh-huh. Right.

01:13:05.44
Bill
Right.

01:13:05.69
Jim O'Connor
And what happened was, is they did really well as long as they were in this program.

01:13:05.78
Mike
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

01:13:12.61
Jim O'Connor
And the minute they stepped out, they were fucked.

01:13:12.73
Mike
Mm-hmm.

01:13:12.90
Bill
Right.

01:13:15.00
Mike
Yep.

01:13:15.49
Jim O'Connor
Yeah.

01:13:15.96
Mike
Yeah.

01:13:16.62
Jim O'Connor
Right.

01:13:16.89
Mike
Yeah.

01:13:16.90
Jim O'Connor
And so I saw in this program I'm talking about I saw guys get, you know, who were like severe alcoholics and addict addicts, like bottom of the barrel, living in bridges, like, and all of a sudden they got six or nine months sober.

01:13:24.38
Mike
Mm-hmm.

01:13:29.34
Jim O'Connor
And I'm like, okay, so what do I know about you? I know that you can do this.

01:13:35.38
Mike
Uh-huh.

01:13:35.45
Jim O'Connor
And I know that you need a job, a safe, sober place to live, and you need meetings and to go in a community because I'm watching you do that in this program.

01:13:39.62
Mike
Yep.

01:13:41.86
Mike
Yeah.

01:13:43.24
Jim O'Connor
Now you have to learn how to do that on the outside.

01:13:46.71
Mike
here

01:13:46.93
Bill
Right. Right.

01:13:47.19
Jim O'Connor
And, you know, having having people there that can teach you that part is really important.

01:13:53.62
Mike
Absolutely.

01:13:53.57
Jim O'Connor
um it's it's've I've seen a lot of guys that were in in a you know six to nine month program um that did great. Like on paper, you know, they they were sober, like doing, they were working, you know, at this place, in this one job, in this kind of small community. And the minute they had to go fend for the I hate say fend for themselves, but be accountable, pay the bills, right?

01:14:15.08
Mike
Mm hmm.

01:14:17.62
Mike
Yeah.

01:14:18.40
Jim O'Connor
um You know, do it on their own and not have it brought to them on a plate, they fold it.

01:14:23.61
Mike
Yep.

01:14:23.70
Bill
Right.

01:14:24.19
Jim O'Connor
And so that it's it's having the, you know, people in time with experience to walk you through all the parts, right?

01:14:30.74
Mike
Mm hmm.

01:14:31.09
Jim O'Connor
The early, middle, and and hopefully the long term.

01:14:34.33
Mike
Yep, absolutely.

01:14:34.44
Bill
Right. Well, and that was one of the things, too, with the Keating Center. And obviously it sounds like, you know, for the setup that you guys have is that, you know, we were surrounded by um all the people who came in for groups, the people who ran the place, the people we dealt with.

01:14:47.58
Bill
Everyone was was sober. Everyone was one of us. You know, they weren't just, you know, book learned or college kid or college, you know, educated, whatever.

01:14:50.66
Mike
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

01:14:56.72
Bill
And they they were they were us. They went through all the same things. They knew they knew what we were dealing with. They spoke our language. And you know we did the same thing. Mike did group at the Keating Center for years.

01:15:07.04
Bill
And you know every every time I'd go back to Cleveland, I'd sit in with them.

01:15:07.10
Mike
hu

01:15:11.26
Bill
And it was one of the one of the most gratifying things to do is to sit there and look at these guys. But you get a room pool about 30 guys, 25 maybe, right, Mike, in those groups?

01:15:19.60
Mike
Right.

01:15:19.95
Bill
Yeah. And then there might be um five that are paying attention and the rest of them aren't, you know, and that's, that's fine.

01:15:20.34
Jim O'Connor
wow

01:15:20.45
Mike
Yeah.

01:15:24.87
Mike
Mm-hmm. Right.

01:15:27.34
Bill
You know, and you could just, you look around and some of them are just, you know, they're kicking back or whatever. They're just like, what the fuck, man? They're just going through the motions and that's fine if that's what they want to do.

01:15:37.41
Bill
But then you get a few of these guys that are just like, you know, kind of almost like hanging on your every word and you're like, okay, so one, one way or the other, Whether we're ah no bad examples. Right. But if nothing else, we got to try to put ourselves up there as the best potential example for these guys to show them that one way or the other.

01:15:48.09
Mike
Mm-hmm.

01:15:54.49
Bill
You know, it's not that it's not simply that if I can do what you can, because that, in my opinion, that's bullshit. I can do this because I do the work. Mike can do this because he did the work. Same with you, Jim. You did this thing because you do the work every day.

01:16:05.57
Jim O'Connor
Oh, yeah.

01:16:05.95
Bill
Just because one of one person could do it doesn't mean everyone can. Everyone has could have the ability. Everyone could have the same tools, but they still have to do the work, you know. But maybe we can provide just a little glimmer of hope that says, this is okay.

01:16:20.83
Bill
We we sat in the same goddamn desk as you five years ago. And I don't have the life.

01:16:24.85
Mike
Right.

01:16:25.63
Bill
I don't have life by the buy the balls, but I'm okay today. and That's all that matters, you know.

01:16:29.88
Jim O'Connor
Yeah, and and I think that, you know, I've i've done, know, hundreds of groups with guys, a group running groups is like my favorite thing. I love more so than the one-on-one counseling.

01:16:38.62
Mike
Mm hmm.

01:16:40.74
Jim O'Connor
And, um, you know, one of the things that I would, I would tell those guys in that room, right. Is, Hey man, like one way or the other, you're becoming someone.

01:16:50.28
Mike
Yeah.

01:16:50.68
Bill
Right.

01:16:50.70
Jim O'Connor
Right. And it's just, which, which guy are you becoming?

01:16:50.89
Bill
Right.

01:16:54.01
Mike
Yeah.

01:16:54.57
Jim O'Connor
And, and the stuff that I did that you did, it's like, you know, nothing's a guarantee in life.

01:16:54.65
Mike
Who do you want to really become?

01:16:56.31
Bill
right

01:17:01.20
Jim O'Connor
There are no guarantees, none about anything. And, but I can tell you that if you do generally the same, take the same steps that you have, that I have, um, that Bill has that you're going to have similar outcomes, man.

01:17:12.93
Mike
Mm-hmm.

01:17:17.53
Mike
Yeah.

01:17:17.49
Jim O'Connor
Like it's not, it's, this isn't a giant mystery.

01:17:18.16
Bill
Right.

01:17:22.70
Jim O'Connor
Like, you you know, you can go around, run around.

01:17:22.90
Mike
Yeah, exactly.

01:17:25.66
Jim O'Connor
I remember saying to a guy and ah in a, in a, in a counseling session, you're going around and around. And I said, what if, what if I told you, um that we could spend two years, an hour, 45 minutes a week for two years, trying to figure out why you're like this, right?

01:17:44.65
Mike
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

01:17:47.23
Jim O'Connor
Or i we could skip that part because whether you know or don't know, what we have to do next is the same, right?

01:17:48.77
Mike
Mm-hmm.

01:17:54.82
Mike
Yep. Yep.

01:17:56.65
Jim O'Connor
You go around in circles and and in between you're becoming someone.

01:18:00.64
Mike
Yep.

01:18:00.81
Bill
Right.

01:18:00.78
Jim O'Connor
Um, and, and you're either becoming the guy that's doing it. I remember telling, I remember a guy got, he had, uh, I was working with, he was great guy, great guy, Joe. Um, and he had gotten a job, he was doing all right.

01:18:13.99
Jim O'Connor
And the first thing he does, and he's like 36 and I see him strolling with like a brand new Bulls Jersey, a Jordans and a gold chain.

01:18:22.46
Mike
Right.

01:18:22.73
Jim O'Connor
He's a white guy. ah Right.

01:18:24.30
Mike
Right. Right.

01:18:25.73
Jim O'Connor
And he's smiling. He's like, hey, Jimmy. And i just I just shook my head and I just said, Joe, if you want to be the guy, you got to do the thing. It's not wear the thing.

01:18:35.54
Mike
right

01:18:35.90
Bill
Right.

01:18:35.90
Jim O'Connor
Right. and And that's it. And that, you know, guys pick that up. If you want to be the guy, you got to do the thing.

01:18:41.21
Mike
isn

01:18:41.88
Jim O'Connor
and And there's no way around it

01:18:42.04
Mike
Yeah, well, ah our sponsor our sponsor had a great line that I used to tell a group all the time, and I love it. you know um Psychology wants to change the way we think so we act differently.

01:18:55.07
Mike
Alcoholics Anonymous wants to change way we act so we think differently.

01:18:58.28
Jim O'Connor
A hundred percent. Right.

01:18:59.58
Mike
Yep.

01:19:00.40
Jim O'Connor
Right.

01:19:01.51
Mike
Yeah.

01:19:01.57
Jim O'Connor
You know, right action doesn't require right thinking, right.

01:19:02.31
Mike
I mean, that's just it. Like you said, we could. Yeah, yeah.

01:19:06.90
Mike
yeah yeah

01:19:07.49
Jim O'Connor
It can precede it.

01:19:07.89
Bill
hey

01:19:08.51
Mike
And thank God, because.

01:19:10.07
Jim O'Connor
Right. Yeah. Right. I think of the, one of the, one of the guy that the, that was really important in a lot of people on the South side of Chicago's sobriety just passed away.

01:19:17.86
Mike
Mm

01:19:19.62
Jim O'Connor
Dr. John Meisner. um He was saying, act right, despite your thoughts and feelings. Right.

01:19:26.86
Mike
hmm.

01:19:27.29
Bill
Oh yeah.

01:19:27.38
Mike
Yeah, yeah, exactly.

01:19:28.01
Bill
Yep.

01:19:27.94
Jim O'Connor
right? Act right despite them.

01:19:31.00
Mike
Yes. Yeah, right. I mean, i say it i on here all the time. My thoughts are still all kinds of fucked up, but I but i don't let them.

01:19:36.19
Jim O'Connor
Oh, which is cool.

01:19:38.10
Mike
Yeah, which is fine. That's never going change. I accept that. That's fine.

01:19:41.78
Bill
a

01:19:42.02
Mike
You know, my thoughts are screwy. That's okay. But my actions aren't today. And that's what's important.

01:19:46.74
Jim O'Connor
Yeah.

01:19:47.61
Mike
Yeah, you know, I don't, i and I don't let those thoughts run my life anymore.

01:19:48.28
Jim O'Connor
And that's it. And

01:19:52.01
Mike
I let these principles in this program run my life, and the thoughts can come and go, and they will, and that's fine. Yeah, right, but I don't act like an idiot today. I'm still an idiot.

01:20:02.21
Mike
I just don't act like one.

01:20:03.57
Jim O'Connor
I read a good one the other day.

01:20:03.77
Bill
ah

01:20:05.74
Jim O'Connor
Feelings are information, not instructions.

01:20:06.03
Bill
Yeah.

01:20:08.63
Mike
Mm-hmm.

01:20:09.38
Bill
Right.

01:20:09.90
Jim O'Connor
Right? Like that's really important.

01:20:10.93
Mike
ah Yes.

01:20:11.19
Bill
yeah

01:20:12.63
Mike
Yes.

01:20:13.82
Jim O'Connor
Not feelings are not instructions.

01:20:16.28
Mike
They are not.

01:20:16.92
Bill
right

01:20:17.19
Jim O'Connor
if If that were the case, oh oh my God, I'd be, well, I'd be in jail.

01:20:19.61
Mike
if if

01:20:21.07
Jim O'Connor
I'd be in prison.

01:20:21.40
Mike
Well, yeah, we we were.

01:20:22.15
Jim O'Connor
Straight prison.

01:20:22.76
Mike
Yeah, that was it.

01:20:23.44
Jim O'Connor
Yeah.

01:20:24.32
Mike
Right. that they Our feelings and our, yeah, they were our instructions for a long time. Thankfully, we've got some new ones now.

01:20:29.07
Jim O'Connor
Yeah.

01:20:31.83
Bill
Yeah, it it is. It's just the, um I don't know, even looking at the difference between, um i don't know, what what we what we thought we knew it at five years, what we thought we knew at 10, 12, or 13 years, what I think I know today versus what I'm what i'm going to look back on um you know in in in a handful of years and realize, what the fuck was I thinking?

01:20:44.92
Mike
Hmm.

01:20:51.53
Bill
Yeah.

01:20:51.52
Jim O'Connor
Yeah.

01:20:51.68
Mike
Mm-hmm.

01:20:52.03
Jim O'Connor
and

01:20:52.16
Bill
you know which is which is fine though but you know the the thing of it is is that um the the beautiful part about the this whole process is two things i love the fact that it never ends and i love the fact that it never disappoints you know and there's there's nothing in my recovery program to this day that has ever disappointed me if i'm disappointed at nothing to do with my program it had everything to do with me not following either the direction or the action that i should have taken

01:20:52.18
Mike
Mm-hmm.

01:21:03.32
Mike
okay

01:21:18.52
Jim O'Connor
Yeah.

01:21:19.16
Bill
That's that was the problem. It wasn't it wasn't the process that failed me. I failed myself or I strayed a little bit. You know, it didn't it didn't make me drink and I wasn't doing that. And I didn't go out and beat somebody up or anything.

01:21:31.48
Bill
But you turn around, you're like, what the fuck? I I didn't need I didn't need that lesson. I needed it, but I didn't need to I didn't need to do something to get the lesson.

01:21:38.26
Mike
instance

01:21:38.61
Jim O'Connor
I didn't need it i just need it that way, right?

01:21:40.73
Bill
Yeah, it's it's okay for me to learn that, but I didn't need to be the the subject of the lesson, you know.

01:21:41.18
Mike
Right.

01:21:41.31
Jim O'Connor
i

01:21:46.21
Bill
um But it just, it is it is amazing the, again, the the wisdom and in in a really, really good way that we get just from, just stick stick around for a minute.

01:21:46.41
Jim O'Connor
Yeah.

01:21:56.01
Bill
You know that's all you got to do sometimes is stick around, shut up and and listen to what other people are telling you, or at least watch, more more importantly, watch what they're doing.

01:22:05.90
Jim O'Connor
And as i've as I've grown on the program, i you know a lot of times I'm like, hey, a-hole, you need to take your own advice. The same things you're telling the guys that that you know just came into the program, that still applies to you.

01:22:14.33
Bill
right

01:22:18.69
Jim O'Connor
And and i I remember like the the one one of the things that the that five to 10 years has kind of changed i is realizing, I think, like one of the number one alcoholic thoughts

01:22:19.22
Mike
Yes.

01:22:32.07
Jim O'Connor
that that gets people in trouble is how it is now is how it's always going to be.

01:22:36.66
Bill
right

01:22:36.71
Mike
Well, of course not.

01:22:37.59
Jim O'Connor
And that's never been true, right?

01:22:37.75
Bill
Right. Right.

01:22:40.16
Mike
Right.

01:22:40.62
Jim O'Connor
Like how much suffering do I cause myself? Cause in any given moment, any given situation, i was like, Oh, how it is now is how it's always going to be.

01:22:48.85
Mike
Right.

01:22:49.34
Jim O'Connor
No, like the only time that was true was like the last four years I was drinking.

01:22:50.52
Mike
Right.

01:22:55.96
Mike
Yeah.

01:22:55.94
Jim O'Connor
Like that that is really, it was always just going to be like that.

01:22:56.36
Mike
Yeah.

01:22:56.40
Bill
Right.

01:22:57.00
Mike
yeah

01:23:00.14
Jim O'Connor
That was, that was it.

01:23:00.47
Mike
o yeah Yeah.

01:23:02.41
Jim O'Connor
And, and you get, yeah, right.

01:23:03.10
Mike
How'd that work out for us?

01:23:09.94
Bill
Yeah, just having a little bit of a little bit of vision. you know and And the thing it is, ah the other thing that that Mike talks about all the time is you know that, um because we you know a lot of people talk about i just want to be happy. I just want this.

01:23:20.41
Bill
People are chasing quote-unquote happiness. And Mike said it first, probably on on here. I'm sure you said it beforehand, before we ever got on here, but I probably didn't really listen to it until we were we were on here doing this, is that you know happiness is a byproduct of the things that we do.

01:23:25.82
Mike
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

01:23:33.18
Jim O'Connor
Mm-hmm.

01:23:34.35
Bill
And I never really... I don't know that I, maybe I knew that um deep down, but I never paid attention to it. Whereas now I do because we have specifically talked about that. I'm not, nobody owes me happiness.

01:23:46.04
Bill
This life doesn't owe me happiness. Now, the thing of it is, so if if I get up and I do all the right things today and I live the way that, that I have worked for the last 16 years to live and I'm trying to make my corner of the world, you know, a little bit better.

01:23:58.50
Bill
I didn't fuck anyone over today. was a decent individual. Maybe he has some great conversation on a podcast And at the, at the end of the day, if I'm, if I'm in whatever mood I'm in, hopefully as a result of the things I did that day, if I'm in a bad mood, what, what happened?

01:24:11.15
Jim O'Connor
Yeah. and

01:24:13.63
Bill
What am I missing? You know, what did I miss versus if I'm in a decent mood or like I say, you know, I've got, I, I kids, you know, I've got, I've got kids that, that love me. I've got two grandchildren that love me.

01:24:24.34
Bill
Well, the one's not old enough to really even know who I am yet.

01:24:26.46
Mike
Maybe. Maybe.

01:24:27.26
Bill
He's only a few months old. He'll, he'll grow to love me, but you know, you

01:24:29.97
Mike
maybe

01:24:31.22
Bill
But what, yeah, maybe, maybe. But, you know what what have I done to, and I use the word deserve very loosely, but what have I what have i done to deserve that? The only thing that I've done to get that happiness is just be a decent human being so I'm allowed to be around them.

01:24:44.30
Bill
That's it, you know?

01:24:44.90
Jim O'Connor
Yeah, I think there's a, I think we're victims of the happiness industrial complex, right?

01:24:45.42
Bill
And that's a beautiful thing.

01:24:45.82
Mike
Yeah.

01:24:52.50
Mike
Mm

01:24:52.99
Bill
Right.

01:24:53.23
Jim O'Connor
Like, and, you know, part of that that thing too is happiness is 100% a byproduct. um It's also a feeling, so it's fleeting, right?

01:25:00.51
Bill
Right.

01:25:00.60
Mike
hmm. Mm hmm.

01:25:01.65
Jim O'Connor
It's going to come and go.

01:25:03.29
Mike
Right.

01:25:03.45
Jim O'Connor
um in in somehow or another, like not just chasing it, but there's, you know, messaging out there that ends up making people feel like if I'm not happy, there must be something wrong.

01:25:14.36
Mike
Right.

01:25:14.51
Bill
Right.

01:25:15.15
Jim O'Connor
And it's just not true. It's just, you're having other feelings. And I remember having to set ah you know some goals and in sobriety early. And I and i remember thinking, you know I need to be able to experience the full range of human emotions, happiness, sadness, joy, anger, you know elation, rage, all of them um without having to go change my consciousness over them with drugs or alcohol.

01:25:42.46
Mike
Right. Mm hmm.

01:25:44.03
Jim O'Connor
Right. Just be human, just be able to experience the full range of human emotions and, and maybe not like, you know, get too hung up on anyone.

01:25:45.66
Mike
Yeah.

01:25:48.50
Mike
that

01:25:53.82
Mike
Well, yeah, right.

01:25:54.24
Jim O'Connor
Right.

01:25:54.74
Mike
Because they're...

01:25:54.86
Jim O'Connor
I, if I could be super happy and if I realized like, yeah, that's going to pass too, like, right.

01:25:59.17
Mike
Yep, exactly.

01:25:59.61
Bill
hey

01:26:00.31
Jim O'Connor
And it's all going to come and go. And, and,

01:26:02.55
Mike
Yeah, exactly. And we have no control over it there Very little.

01:26:06.90
Jim O'Connor
No. And, and I think that, you know, we, we assign value. judge If, if I just am neutral about the value judgments, that being happy, isn't really like, it's just on an equal par with sadness or, you know, it's going to come and go, then it's just, you kind of just experience it for a little bit and then you watch it go away and you keep moving.

01:26:13.68
Mike
Mm-hmm.

01:26:24.66
Mike
Yeah, yeah, exactly. That's why we don't let those feelings control us anymore because they're going to change.

01:26:28.07
Jim O'Connor
And yeah,

01:26:31.91
Mike
Yes, I mean, you know, five minutes from now, I'm going to feel differently than I do right now. You know, because five minutes ago, I felt differently than I do right now.

01:26:37.50
Bill
Right.

01:26:41.11
Mike
Yeah, it's it.

01:26:41.61
Jim O'Connor
Sam Harris had a great um line in a meditation guided meditation and it was to observe your thoughts, you know, focus on your breath and you realize that thought comes up and he says, okay, when that thought comes up.

01:26:43.70
Mike
Hmm. Mm hmm.

01:26:55.81
Jim O'Connor
Return to your attention to your breath. And then he asks, where did the thought go?

01:27:01.08
Mike
Right.

01:27:01.49
Jim O'Connor
Like literally think of it, like, where did it go? And that was so mind-blowing. like, where did it go? Like, it's it's just gone.

01:27:06.87
Bill
ah

01:27:08.86
Jim O'Connor
like And if a feeling or thought could come and go like that, how important can it be?

01:27:09.46
Mike
Yeah.

01:27:15.03
Bill
Right?

01:27:15.86
Jim O'Connor
Right?

01:27:16.15
Mike
exactly

01:27:16.19
Jim O'Connor
I don't know where it came from. I don't know where it went. And yet somehow or another, I'm going to assign it a massive value.

01:27:19.06
Mike
yeah

01:27:19.90
Bill
Right?

01:27:23.57
Jim O'Connor
Right? It's super important. um But I don't even know where they come from or where they go.

01:27:25.98
Mike
sure

01:27:28.98
Mike
Right.

01:27:29.27
Bill
ah

01:27:29.39
Mike
Yeah. Yeah.

01:27:30.84
Jim O'Connor
and I love that one. Like, where did it go?

01:27:32.57
Mike
yeah

01:27:32.95
Jim O'Connor
i'm like, I don't fucking know.

01:27:33.50
Bill
right

01:27:34.40
Jim O'Connor
this Yeah, like, how important is it?

01:27:35.06
Bill
Yeah. Well, in in the fact that we can sit here and break something like that down and think, God damn, that is fucking ridiculous, isn't it?

01:27:44.32
Jim O'Connor
It's probably not that much.

01:27:44.63
Bill
Right. Yeah.

01:27:46.19
Jim O'Connor
Like...

01:27:47.70
Bill
Yeah, probably, probably not even, not even at all. So um in kind of, the you know, getting towards wrapping up and stuff, I guess a couple of things. um Number one, you know, if you, if you want to kind of reiterate and anything else either that we missed, anything more you want to, you know, to say about the project, anything along those lines. And then as a, well, I'll leave my last one for a minute. Anything you want to say to kind of wrap up or reiterate on, on the project, what you guys are doing or anything like that to bring more light to it.

01:28:14.07
Jim O'Connor
Yeah, sure. If anybody's interested, um you know, I really encourage you to just start by Googling um Second Story Ranch. We come up pretty pretty consistently.

01:28:25.82
Jim O'Connor
um We've had a lot of great media exposure.

01:28:26.42
Mike
Mm-hmm.

01:28:28.59
Jim O'Connor
We've had some news pieces done on on us that are pretty good. People can you know see the content there. And our website is bootsonletsgo.org. I think that's what Ryan White.

01:28:39.90
Jim O'Connor
We've got another one, but that's ah that's the shortcut is bootsonletsgo.org.

01:28:40.59
Mike
Mm-hmm.

01:28:44.76
Bill
Okay. And I'll have that, that is, and will be, it was in the description the last time I'll, I'll have the length and link in there too, but, but the same deal. I mean, if ah you know, we were, we were kind of joking, we joke about this all the time, but you know, if people just look at, you know, the, obviously the name, the second story foundation, Google it, you know, click on the link in, in the podcast description, whatever the case is.

01:29:04.36
Bill
And, you know, obviously get, get involved. at Are you guys still taking donations through the site too?

01:29:08.34
Jim O'Connor
Oh, yeah, absolutely. And forever.

01:29:09.99
Mike
Right.

01:29:10.04
Bill
Okay.

01:29:10.49
Jim O'Connor
ah Absolutely and forever.

01:29:10.87
Bill
I just, i want to make sure. i mean, i i didn't want to be I didn't want to be obvious, but...

01:29:14.98
Jim O'Connor
No donation is too small. No donation is too big.

01:29:19.13
Mike
right

01:29:19.22
Bill
right Right. Right. So last question, and this is the one I kind of wanted to say, but what is there? Is there anything that, you know, again, you you know us. We're not a huge podcast.

01:29:29.90
Bill
You don't have necessarily, you know, this worldwide, you know, um reach or anything like that.

01:29:32.47
Jim O'Connor
Oh, man.

01:29:34.34
Bill
But what either what can we do with even if you can't answer that that right now? I guess maybe let me put it the put it the other way. And I think we said it to begin with last time. if there's anything that we can do to help out in any way, shape, or form.

01:29:48.57
Bill
Things like this are the things that we, I don't think, right, Mike, just think they're cool, they're where we came from, um the same concept.

01:29:55.16
Mike
who

01:29:56.36
Bill
everything that Everything that you guys are doing there, we did a little bit different. It's got a different face on it, but it's the same type of concept. So just know that if there's anything that that you need from us, if we can help in any way, shape, or form, let us know.

01:30:09.61
Jim O'Connor
Oh, that's so generous. You guys are already been just super generous with your time, with your platform. And and really, i just, you know, anybody, anytime anybody wants to talk recovery, I'm in like anytime.

01:30:19.92
Bill
Right.

01:30:20.20
Jim O'Connor
Yeah.

01:30:20.44
Mike
yeah

01:30:22.10
Bill
Right. But yeah, I mean, it's, ah again, you know, us ah sitting on here and I was, i was ah very happy and I know Mike was too, you know, to, to have you, have you coming back. And but once again, we have a, we have very, very few repeat people that come on here and you know, some of these conversations are just really good. And to, to your exact point, Jim, when we were, when you emailed and you're like that, the 90 minutes went quick again, I don't know what we just talked about for an hour and a half, but we did. So we, yeah,

01:30:47.12
Jim O'Connor
Well, i I can't thank you guys enough for being out here and doing this. um You know, people, whether, you know, we we promote long-term lifelong sobriety, right?

01:30:57.88
Jim O'Connor
It's just a great way to live if you fucked your life up with drugs and alcohol.

01:30:58.39
Mike
Yeah.

01:31:01.58
Mike
Mm-hmm.

01:31:02.07
Jim O'Connor
It's just, ah you got better odds. but But the fact that you guys reach anybody at all that hears this message, um especially the newcomer, right? You know, you never know.

01:31:13.78
Jim O'Connor
There's help, there's hope, um and there's a way forward.

01:31:15.56
Mike
Mm-hmm. Yes. There's a pathway.

01:31:18.74
Bill
Definitely.

01:31:19.84
Jim O'Connor
There is a pathway.

01:31:21.11
Mike
There is a pathway that was walked down.

01:31:21.27
Bill
ah

01:31:22.91
Mike
The grass has been pushed down. Just walk on it.

01:31:27.54
Bill
yep follow Follow the guy before you. so All right, so Jim, once again, don't don't go anywhere. Mike's going to do his his same thing as he did to to bring us out with chat for a couple of minutes after that, but then we're going to close out.

01:31:38.46
Bill
But again, don't go anywhere until we say so.

01:31:41.03
Jim O'Connor
You got it.

01:31:41.40
Mike
a

01:31:41.49
Jim O'Connor
Thanks so much, guys.

01:31:43.13
Bill
Thanks, Jim.

01:31:43.14
Mike
Thanks, man. All right, everybody. Well, thank you very much for listening to yet another episode of Sober Not Mature. Thank you, Jim, for coming on and for all the good work that you do, man, and and taking care of those horses and those men. And as always, be kind to each other. be good to each other. go out there do something nice for somebody else this week. And don't tell anybody you did it.

01:32:06.55
Mike
Now, from the bottom of my heart to the depths of my soul, from the beginning of time until the ends of the earth, always and eternally, fuck you.

01:32:18.26
Mike
Now it's time, kids. It's time for you to fuck off. Then keep fucking off. Keep fucking off till you get to a gate with a sign on it saying, you cannot fuck off past here.

01:32:29.69
Mike
Climb over that gate. Dream the impossible dream and keep fucking off forever.

01:32:37.30
Bill
Never gets old, right, Jim?

01:32:38.78
Jim O'Connor
It's great.

01:32:39.99
Bill
But um it I almost forgot Ryan had said, and we'll have to figure it out it at some point. I don't even think I've told you, Mike, because I figured we'd talk about it on here. um Ryan said he basically invited us out to the to the ranch at some point.

01:32:50.84
Mike
Oh, cool.

01:32:51.10
Bill
So, yeah, so it's, ah I mean, we're I'm i'm a right now physically and in Northwest Indiana and Valpo.

01:32:51.31
Jim O'Connor
Oh, absolutely.

01:32:58.78
Bill
Mike makes it up here every once in a while. We'll figure it out.

01:33:00.65
Jim O'Connor
youre you You're like 30 minutes from us.

01:33:00.78
Mike
Yeah.

01:33:01.14
Bill
We'll kind of keep in touch if you have an event going on.

01:33:03.74
Jim O'Connor
We are right over the Indiana border.

01:33:06.17
Bill
Oh really? Okay. But yeah, we'll,

01:33:07.03
Jim O'Connor
yeah We are literally like right across the border.

01:33:07.19
Mike
Well, shit, you need to get your ass up there, Bill.

01:33:10.20
Bill
Yeah, I mean, we, yeah, well, it it it two things.

01:33:10.68
Mike
Go feed a horse.

01:33:11.82
Jim O'Connor
For sure.

01:33:14.73
Bill
I would love to, and I would love for both of us to to get out there because it it'd be nice to see, it'd be wonderful to see what you guys are doing and you know what we could figure out, know obviously, while the weather is still warm.

01:33:16.86
Mike
Yeah.

01:33:25.41
Bill
But yeah, if there's any time, let us know when there's something going on.

01:33:28.07
Jim O'Connor
Open invitation anytime.

01:33:28.89
Bill
we Okay, cool. All right.

01:33:30.58
Mike
Cool.

01:33:30.90
Bill
Well, well let's let's figure it out, Mike, and we'll we'll figure out how to get out there.

01:33:32.95
Mike
Yeah, definitely.

01:33:33.86
Bill
so All right, Mike, I love you, brother.

01:33:36.28
Mike
Love you too.

01:33:37.42
Bill
We'll talk soon.

01:33:37.40
Jim O'Connor
Mike, thanks so much.

01:33:38.90
Mike
Thanks, guys.

01:33:40.29
Bill
Bye. bye

01:33:41.32
Mike
Bye.