SoberNotMature - Episode 243 (David G - A Handle Of Olive Oil & Trudging Out Of The Woods)

00:00:01.82
Bill
All right, everyone. Welcome once again to another episode of Sober, Not Mature. And after a little bit... a little bit of uh technical stuff here we have back our good friend david so so say

00:00:15.02
Mike
Mm-hmm. Hey, only five minutes, man. Not bad.

00:00:18.98
Bill
Yeah, it only took us, well, it took us about 15 total to get everything in shape.

00:00:20.99
Mike
Yeah. che

00:00:22.48
Bill
But David, introduce yourself real quick. David was supposed to be on a couple of weeks ago.

00:00:33.21
Bill
a favor, David, quick introduction, one to two minutes, just to tell us who you are, where you're from, that sort of thing, and then we'll get into everything, okay?

00:00:39.60
David
Oh absolutely. First, thanks for having me on. My name is David and I'm an alcoholic.

00:00:42.70
Mike
Mm hmm.

00:00:42.66
Bill
You're welcome.

00:00:45.14
David
Uh, Been... Sober now. A little over two years. My sobriety date is June 16th, 2024. Oh. I'm a father in recovery, I'm a...

00:00:55.49
David
everything in recovery.

00:00:56.61
Mike
Mm hmm.

00:00:56.82
David
ah Moved down to South Florida about three and a half years ago. I have a nine-year-old daughter. uh she's The reason I got... and I got into treatment. Um,

00:01:08.25
David
What else can I tell you? I've written a couple of books about it. And currently, I'm actually transitioning into a new job.

00:01:15.59
Mike
m

00:01:15.95
David
And, uh... Things have been going very well.

00:01:19.13
Bill
Good.

00:01:19.20
David
Lately.

00:01:19.99
Mike
Nice. Imagine that. He gets sober and shit starts going better.

00:01:24.54
David
Exactly. i' Funny how that happens.

00:01:25.46
Mike
Hehehehehehehehehehehehehehe.

00:01:26.82
Bill
Yeah, it's ah it's imagine how that how all that stuff seems to line up but when when that happens. we had the We had the same experience, if you if you can imagine that too.

00:01:33.80
Mike
Mm hmm.

00:01:35.14
Bill
But, well, yeah, and I'm glad that, and thank you. obviously for having the patience with us the last time. And, you know, we mentioned, we mentioned all the time, it's ah us being so strictly audio only. i Even so, I mean, it'd be it'd be important to have that audio.

00:01:49.23
Bill
I know that a lot of I see it. A lot of podcasts don't pay attention to how the audio is.

00:01:53.90
Mike
Hmm.

00:01:53.83
Bill
And I'm a consumer of of podcasts as much as I am, you know, obviously on this podcast. But. um i'll I'll lose my interest. i'll lose If I can't understand the person, if the audio is bad, if that sort of thing, then I'll i'll jump on to something else.

00:02:07.16
Bill
So we appreciate you coming back and and trying to. at least ah get this right for us whatever right is right mike

00:02:13.47
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:02:14.61
David
Oh, no, i appreciate I appreciate you guys having the patience to... ah to work with me on that. And I actually appreciate the audio only aspect.

00:02:19.45
Bill
It happens.

00:02:21.85
Mike
Mm hmm.

00:02:22.05
David
I've been told to have a face for radio. So...

00:02:23.73
Mike
Yes.

00:02:24.17
Bill
ah

00:02:24.73
Mike
Us too. Hehehehehehehehehehehehe.

00:02:25.77
Bill
Yeah. Yeah, that's, you know, here's here's the thing. and the here's the we We get, I don't know, we get a little bit down on on video podcasts only because there's very, very few, and this is just in my opinion, there's very few out there that do it right.

00:02:38.32
Bill
And what I mean by right is there's a certain quality, I think, that we as as consumers of of video content just get used to, you know? And whether it's back from...

00:02:46.91
Mike
All right.

00:02:48.80
Bill
you know, us watching, you know, videos and regular TV and all those sort of things, these old TV shows, you know, for old people like Mike and I, or...

00:02:55.87
Mike
Hi.

00:02:56.57
Bill
yeah You get to the to the younger folks that...

00:02:57.39
David
Hmm.

00:02:59.34
Bill
I mean, a lot of them are just watching a lot of YouTube stuff.

00:03:01.85
Mike
Mm hmm.

00:03:02.08
Bill
I can't imagine that these young folks want to watch fucking garbage you know and to me when I see a video um you know, that glitches back and forth, it's like, wow, it just, it's distracting.

00:03:14.02
Bill
And I don't understand how people put that out. And they're like, this is really good. You know, but it's my opinion. That's one we reason we don't do it. But also we tried it one time and it was fucking terrible.

00:03:24.69
Bill
So.

00:03:24.68
Mike
Mm hmm.

00:03:25.17
David
Oof.

00:03:26.39
Bill
all we All we did was just sit there.

00:03:26.53
David
Damn.

00:03:27.87
Bill
but He and I just sat there kind of like on video and we had. two people, our sister and somebody else said that they liked it. And we're like, yeah, we don't. We might do it we might do it again if we're if we're forced to do it or somebody pays us a lot of fucking money to do it.

00:03:34.78
Mike
No, no, no. she Right.

00:03:39.93
Bill
you know but That's the other reason that we don't edit anything, because first of all, it was laziness. Right, Mike?

00:03:45.52
Mike
Absolutely.

00:03:47.42
Bill
laziness and not really understanding how to, how to properly edit. So we didn't. And now we're like, fucking everything, everything that we say is going to be on here. So just so you know, David, we, we don't edit a thing.

00:03:58.17
Bill
I suppose if somebody said something really weird.

00:03:58.38
David
oh i've I've listened to your podcast. i I know you don't edit a thing.

00:04:00.80
Bill
ah

00:04:01.16
Mike
Hehehehehehe.

00:04:04.17
Bill
Yeah. And it just, it doesn't, I don't know. It just, the, all these things are our opinion, but yeah, we, we joke about it too. I haven't, you know, strictly a face for radio or non-video podcasting, but I don't know if, if we had the money and the skill and somebody was paying us to do it right, we, I suppose we would, but you know, we don't have to, because we tell.

00:04:20.100
Mike
Well, if they'd pay us the money, then we'd pay somebody else to do it right for us.

00:04:24.47
Bill
Yeah, that's what that's exactly.

00:04:25.33
David
There you go.

00:04:25.71
Mike
yeah

00:04:25.69
Bill
Yeah. Somebody would pay us to do it and they pay us to do it right. That by all means. But yeah, anyhow. So. um If you've listened, you know that we have a little bit of a different way of kind of going about things, which Mike's going to explain to you. Right, Mike?

00:04:37.32
Mike
Right. As I was grabbing a cigarette. um Yes, right.

00:04:40.58
Bill
ah

00:04:43.32
Mike
So we all know how to get fucked up and know how to fuck up our lives and fuck up the lives of everyone around us. We know how to do that. What we're interested in is the solution. We hate drunkologues. You know, tell your story. You know, throw some facts in there, a little qualification. That's all good. But, you know, right. We we know how to get loaded.

00:05:04.83
Mike
Hehehehe.

00:05:05.54
David
yeah Exactly. That's how we got here.

00:05:08.61
Mike
Absolutely.

00:05:08.68
Bill
Yeah, exactly. i said Go ahead, David.

00:05:12.49
David
Oh.

00:05:12.76
Bill
It is yours.

00:05:12.48
Mike
it's It's all you.

00:05:13.52
David
Ha ha!

00:05:14.46
Bill
Yeah, so yeah.

00:05:14.95
David
Oh, you want to you want to hear my story?

00:05:14.96
Bill
so

00:05:16.52
Mike
Yeah, right.

00:05:16.71
Bill
Oh, yeah.

00:05:17.27
David
Oh, okay.

00:05:17.15
Mike
well We know our stories.

00:05:17.09
Bill
yeah

00:05:17.71
David
Well. Actually, actually listening to your podcast. um I have a lot in common with you guys because of the time period where I was raised.

00:05:24.25
Bill
Really?

00:05:26.63
Mike
Right?

00:05:26.69
Bill
Okay.

00:05:26.94
David
I was born in 68.

00:05:28.17
Mike
Okay.

00:05:28.30
Bill
Okay.

00:05:28.86
David
So I grew up in irish bars

00:05:31.07
Mike
Nice.

00:05:31.35
David
My dad was an alcoholic.

00:05:31.25
Bill
Oh, okay.

00:05:32.94
Mike
Mm hmm.

00:05:33.52
David
And from the age of one and a half, he was taking me to bars.

00:05:36.32
Mike
Nice.

00:05:36.61
Bill
and Okay.

00:05:37.37
David
Mom was pregnant. She was tired after a long day with me. Dad would get home. She would say, take him with you.

00:05:42.77
Mike
Mm hmm.

00:05:43.19
David
So that would take me to the bar.

00:05:44.65
Mike
Cool.

00:05:44.68
David
i'm A year and a half old, I'd fall asleep on one of those bar stools that had the low back.

00:05:49.34
Mike
Right.

00:05:50.73
David
You know, fast forward a few years.

00:05:51.11
Mike
Perfect little bassinet.

00:05:52.71
David
Yeah, exactly.

00:05:52.66
Bill
Right. Yeah

00:05:53.10
David
oh It's comfortable as hell.

00:05:55.17
Mike
Yes.

00:05:56.13
David
a Fast forward a few years, parents get divorced, dad has us on the weekends. Where do we spend every weekend? At the bar.

00:06:01.04
Mike
mm-hmm

00:06:02.04
Bill
Right.

00:06:03.03
David
It was not uncommon to see kids at a bar.

00:06:05.48
Mike
Right.

00:06:05.64
Bill
Right?

00:06:05.88
David
in the 70s.

00:06:06.74
Mike
Yeah.

00:06:07.65
David
And for me, that was perfectly normal. growing up around alcohol people drinking etc etc

00:06:09.98
Mike
Mm hmm.

00:06:13.97
David
ah When I was 21, my dad died of cirrhosis of the liver and other medical complications.

00:06:17.83
Mike
Hmm.

00:06:18.02
Bill
Okay.

00:06:19.91
David
And that was the first time in my life. That I. heard he was an alcoholic.

00:06:24.74
Mike
Right.

00:06:25.08
Bill
Really? Okay.

00:06:26.17
David
I never saw my dad that way because to me, it was what he was doing was perfectly normal.

00:06:31.08
Mike
Mm hmm.

00:06:31.34
Bill
Right.

00:06:31.82
David
We saw it day in and day out. And the doctor, when I asked the doctor, is he going to get a transplant? He said, no. I said, why? He said, does it doesn't qualify. so what do you mean it doesn't qualify Well, your dad's a functioning alcoholic. but What are you talking about?

00:06:43.88
David
Are you fucking nuts?

00:06:45.08
Mike
Hehehehe.

00:06:45.20
David
My dad's got a job. He pays his bills. he Yeah, he likes to drink every...

00:06:46.83
Mike
Right.

00:06:48.63
David
weekend.

00:06:49.53
Mike
Mm hmm.

00:06:49.92
David
And every day he has a few beers.

00:06:51.11
Mike
Hmm.

00:06:52.56
David
Well, yeah, that's the only thing holding your father up.

00:06:54.98
Mike
Right.

00:06:55.16
David
If he stops drinking, he's going to fall apart.

00:06:55.23
Bill
Right.

00:06:57.53
Mike
Yep.

00:06:58.46
David
So... it was It was a... It was a punch in the gut. because it was that was the last thing I expected. To me, an alcoholic was, you know... The guy living under the bridge with a paper bag.

00:07:09.59
Bill
Right.

00:07:09.38
Mike
huh

00:07:10.39
David
You know? That was my dad. So... Scared me straight. I did not touch a drop of alcohol for about 10 years. Me and my younger brother. But then in my 30s...

00:07:22.71
David
you know started dating socializing getting back out there i said if i was going to be an alcoholic i would have turned into one already

00:07:27.69
Mike
Right.

00:07:28.72
Bill
Right.

00:07:28.72
David
It's safe to drink. So I started drinking socially and it didn't get out of hand. Um, Then I met my wife. Actually, right before I met my wife I was in a toxic relationship.

00:07:40.95
David
And that relationship almost killed me because that's what got me drinking heavy.

00:07:44.62
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:07:45.02
David
And I was drinking on a daily basis. I was going through a handle of vodka every three or four days.

00:07:51.31
Mike
Mm hmm.

00:07:52.08
David
Just constantly had a drink in my hand. I gained 30 pounds. my Skin was gray. it was It was bad.

00:07:58.96
Mike
mm-hmm

00:07:59.23
David
That relationship ended. I got started to get back in shape, got some color back, stopped drinking. I met my wife. Um... My daughter was born a couple of years after we met.

00:08:10.40
David
And that's when the drinking really took off. Because I was not prepared. Emotionally. for fatherhood

00:08:19.19
Mike
um huh

00:08:19.58
Bill
Right.

00:08:19.95
David
Much less marriage.

00:08:21.36
Mike
Right.

00:08:21.97
David
Um, I didn't know how to handle it and the way I handled it was to escape.

00:08:26.07
Mike
Mm hmm.

00:08:26.82
David
And... The best way to escape was alcohol. It just made everything nice and quiet. Um, You know, it made me charming. It made me funny. It made me look like I didn't care and I had no troubles

00:08:38.97
Mike
Right

00:08:40.66
David
It's all bullshit.

00:08:41.74
Mike
Of course.

00:08:42.37
Bill
Right.

00:08:42.92
David
Of course, you know it's but you don't see it when you're in it.

00:08:43.72
Bill
Right.

00:08:45.24
Mike
Right, of course not

00:08:45.39
Bill
Right.

00:08:46.92
David
No. So... ah you know that that went on for Six years. Um... And then I got caught At that point, I had become a functioning alcoholic.

00:09:00.69
Mike
Right.

00:09:01.68
David
Because I was drinking a handle of whiskey every other day.

00:09:04.82
Mike
Hmm.

00:09:05.65
David
And I was going on binges of two to three weeks, then a week off. two to three weeks, then a week off. Um, that went on for that actually that pattern went on for a little over a year

00:09:17.58
Mike
m

00:09:18.40
David
Um... Then I got caught. And I went into treatment. and the first time i went into treatment i went in for all the wrong reasons

00:09:26.68
Mike
Right.

00:09:27.87
David
My wife. told me the first time, you know, Get help or get the fuck out.

00:09:32.58
Mike
Right?

00:09:32.91
Bill
yeah Right.

00:09:34.01
David
Okay, I'll go get help. I want to save my marriage.

00:09:35.73
Mike
Mm hmm. Sure.

00:09:38.29
David
Wrong region.

00:09:39.22
Mike
Yeah.

00:09:39.97
David
I went in there with a plan. I'm gonna learn everything i can i'm gonna beat this i'm gonna save my marriage everything's gonna go back to normal Before I left treatment, we called my wife.

00:09:50.38
David
because my therapist wanted to know what my coming home was going to look like.

00:09:53.74
Mike
e

00:09:54.47
David
Because I decided to do IOP from home.

00:09:56.69
Bill
Right.

00:09:57.58
David
And she said, well, David is more than welcome to come back home. His daughter loves him. His family loves him. However, we will not be moving forward together as a married couple.

00:10:07.62
Mike
um

00:10:08.70
David
And I'm sitting there listening to this on speakerphone going. Ah, she doesn't know how much I've changed.

00:10:13.28
Mike
Right.

00:10:13.53
Bill
Right.

00:10:14.54
David
that's its so You know, she did she's still mad. She's still mad.

00:10:18.09
Mike
Right.

00:10:18.42
David
It'll be okay. And a couple of days later, she picked me up. We went home. And. She sent our daughter to her room. She said, Mommy and Daddy have to talk.

00:10:29.67
David
And we sat down in the home office. And she just let loose. She basically opened up and told me. Everything. she felt.

00:10:39.08
Mike
Mm-hmm

00:10:39.55
David
about our marriage. about me? but what i had done How I had manipulated her, gaslighted her, had her doubting her own sanity. At times that our marriage was a lie

00:10:49.96
Mike
Mm hmm.

00:10:52.45
David
that I never truly loved her. Yeah, yeah. She told me things I was not ready to hear.

00:10:59.04
Mike
Right.

00:10:59.72
Bill
Right.

00:11:00.66
David
And in the back of my mind, there's this little voice going. Just don't say a word

00:11:05.11
Mike
Mm hmm.

00:11:05.81
David
Just show her that you're taking it and that you've changed.

00:11:08.84
Mike
Mm hmm.

00:11:09.16
David
and you can still get through this you can still you can make this work By the end of the conversation, I knew there was no chance.

00:11:16.16
Mike
Right.

00:11:16.71
David
Next day, I bought a bottle.

00:11:18.04
Mike
Mm-hmm

00:11:19.66
David
And I said, I just, need I couldn't stop thinking about it. I couldn't shut the brain off.

00:11:23.60
Mike
Right.

00:11:24.24
David
And I said, let me let me just have a drink. a couple of drinks just to quiet everything down so i can so i can get through this it'll be fine i've got everything i need to read to get back on track i'll read the literature i'll say a prayer and i'll be fine i'll stop drinking again

00:11:36.60
Mike
Hehehehehehe.

00:11:39.28
David
Yeah, exactly.

00:11:40.23
Mike
Yeah, yeah, yeah

00:11:40.75
Bill
Yeah. No, it's it's a that the fight the reason I'm laughing is because...

00:11:41.46
David
Ha! haton

00:11:45.47
Bill
it it makes I get it, and I understand it, and it makes perfect sense to me at that time because I would have i could have and probably did think about that at that point.

00:11:48.07
Mike
Mmm.

00:11:54.79
Bill
It's okay. I'm going to just read read the literature and kind of get this in my head and say a prayer, and I'll bob be good.

00:12:01.17
Mike
Mm hmm.

00:12:01.37
David
Yeah.

00:12:01.25
Bill
I'm good.

00:12:02.23
David
Exactly.

00:12:02.13
Mike
Yep.

00:12:03.67
David
So, um... That was on a... that was on a thursday night i believe if i remember correctly sometimes the memory goes And Saturday.

00:12:10.69
Bill
Right.

00:12:10.69
Mike
right

00:12:13.39
David
My wife and daughter had gone out shopping. They came home, I was passed out drunk on the sofa.

00:12:17.92
Bill
Hmm.

00:12:17.65
Mike
Mm hmm.

00:12:19.01
David
And I remember this. My wife said to me, I don't know who you need to call. But you better call them right the fuck now.

00:12:25.65
Mike
mm-hmm

00:12:26.64
David
Okay. I don't remember who I called. I must have called the the detox that I went to the first time.

00:12:32.46
Mike
Right.

00:12:32.73
David
They sent somebody to pick me up. Wife packed new bag. They took me away. I wake up Sunday morning and detox. realize, oh, fuck, I'm back.

00:12:43.34
David
Tough. I was kicking myself. And then I opened the bag that she packed for me. And that's when reality really smacked me in the face. Inside the bag.

00:12:54.56
David
was my father's day gift. Because that Sunday was Father's Day.

00:12:58.40
Bill
Oh yeah.

00:12:58.37
Mike
aha

00:12:58.100
Bill
Right.

00:13:00.69
David
And my six-year-old daughter had bought me that gift with her own money, and she had picked the gift out herself.

00:13:05.54
Mike
a

00:13:06.67
David
with a note from my wife telling me this. She bought us with her own money.

00:13:09.26
Mike
Right.

00:13:10.44
David
And she picked it out herself. And when I saw the gift, I just... I lost it.

00:13:16.14
Mike
Mm hmm.

00:13:16.85
David
That is what finally broke me.

00:13:16.50
Bill
Right.

00:13:19.31
David
That's when I knew I'm not smart enough to beat this on my own.

00:13:22.55
Mike
Good.

00:13:23.50
David
I am not smart enough. I may think that just learning the words is enough, but no. If I don't do something to save my own life? I'm not going to get to have any more Father's Days.

00:13:34.13
Mike
Right.

00:13:34.41
Bill
Right.

00:13:35.20
David
I'm not going to get a chance to so to watch her grow up.

00:13:37.58
Mike
Mm hmm.

00:13:38.14
David
Watch her fall in love. Break somebody's heart. I'll have to break his legs.

00:13:40.34
Mike
Right. hate Right.

00:13:42.17
Bill
Ha ha.

00:13:42.11
David
Whatever. You know?

00:13:43.03
Mike
I want to be there for that, damn it.

00:13:43.15
Bill
Right.

00:13:44.68
Mike
I want to be sober and present.

00:13:44.54
David
I want to be exactly.

00:13:45.99
Mike
I want to be present when I break the little fucker's legs.

00:13:46.52
David
I want to be... I want to be present on her first date when he shows up so I can tell him. Whatever you do to her, I'm going to do to you.

00:13:54.63
Mike
Mm hmm.

00:13:54.87
Bill
Right, yeah.

00:13:55.85
David
Have her home by 10. But anyway. um No, that that's that's what made me finally understand.

00:14:00.92
Mike
Yes. Mm hmm.

00:14:03.69
David
Surrender Man. You got to surrender.

00:14:04.69
Mike
Right. Right. Yeah, yeah right.

00:14:06.42
David
Just give it up.

00:14:07.39
Mike
That was my moment of clarity too, right? Realizing exactly what I was doing to other people.

00:14:13.11
David
Yeah.

00:14:13.04
Bill
Right.

00:14:13.17
Mike
Yeah.

00:14:13.97
David
Yeah, so that's...

00:14:14.20
Mike
Yeah.

00:14:15.55
David
That's my story in a nutshell. that second time through i i did it right i gave up my will i gave up control I told my therapist, the BHTs, everybody at the treatment center.

00:14:17.01
Mike
Yeah.

00:14:26.31
David
i am done making choices i am done making decisions

00:14:29.26
Mike
Mmm.

00:14:29.54
David
You people tell me where to go? when to be there and what to do, and I will do it.

00:14:31.29
Mike
simson Huh?

00:14:35.02
Bill
Yeah. See, you know what? I just i wish I had those points of surrender.

00:14:38.48
Mike
Yeah.

00:14:40.55
Bill
yeah it This doesn't have to be all about me. I'll tell you a very quick story. that The very quick story is this. i did um i When I went into detox and I feel like I had this this breakdown, this moment of of desperation rather than clarity. Now, I know that it was a moment of clarity disguised behind my desperation and my... my anger and whatever it was it was still because mike and i have talked about this a lot

00:15:03.60
Mike
m

00:15:04.52
Bill
There was a desire in there someplace, but I didn't know it at the time. But all said and done, when I got out to the Keating Center in Cleveland after detox, and i'm told I was told by the doctor, you know, if you keep doing what you're doing.

00:15:15.15
Bill
You know, you can fucking lie to me all the time. You know, you're three drinks a day, three to five drinks a day. Yeah, okay. You keep doing you keep doing that, and you're going to be dead.

00:15:20.44
David
Yeah.

00:15:22.57
Bill
Not in months, not in years, but in weeks, you're going to be dead. And. you know i didn't um I heard it, but didn't really believe him. So by the time I got to the Keating Center, and I stayed, but I was fucking angry.

00:15:30.19
Mike
Hmm.

00:15:33.36
Bill
And then, Mike, you got there, what did we figure, five days after I did?

00:15:36.73
Mike
Something like that. Yeah, I think so.

00:15:38.39
Bill
yeah it was within less than it was within four to five days somewhere in that period and you know mike comes in looking rough as hell which is you know black eyes or whatever and all these people are fucking rough as hell and i think everyone's gonna kill me i'm trying to make friends with people but That's all I want to do.

00:15:44.02
Mike
Hehehehehehe.

00:15:46.26
David
Hmm.

00:15:48.97
Mike
Mm hmm.

00:15:51.43
Bill
I just want to be there long enough not to die and then figure out what the fuck to do. But I i was mad. Whatever I wanted, I don't know, but I didn't want to get sober. I didn't have this, oh, tell me what to do. I'll do anything mindset. I was just like, fuck everyone. I know I got to be here. but i don't I don't want to. You know, and I'm just going to sit back on across my arms physically and mentally. You fuckers can talk to me, but I'm not saying a goddamn word. And surprisingly enough, that stubbornness.

00:16:19.43
Bill
Probably saved my life.

00:16:21.25
David
Mmm.

00:16:21.34
Mike
Mm hmm.

00:16:21.80
Bill
Because I sat there and I did exactly what I was supposed to do. inadvertently but um yeah it took it took me a while and every time we talk about these things. Then I say, yeah, I was angry at Mike.

00:16:33.11
Mike
Yep.

00:16:33.17
Bill
And he didn't fucking know me that well.

00:16:35.41
Mike
Mmm.

00:16:35.05
Bill
I mean, didn't know me at all, but he's like, yeah it's an angry fuck over here, you know?

00:16:38.10
Mike
Mm hmm.

00:16:40.33
Bill
But um so just a real quick question. I know you said you got caught. I'm guessing that the first time you went in, I'm guessing your wife caught you, correct?

00:16:47.26
David
No.

00:16:48.08
Bill
Oh okay.

00:16:48.85
David
My daughter.

00:16:48.89
Bill
How'd you get caught? Oh, your daughter. Okay.

00:16:50.80
David
Yeah. I was hiding, ah I had a bottle of whiskey. a handle hidden in her closet. in her room.

00:16:56.65
Mike
m

00:16:56.76
Bill
Oh, boy. Okay.

00:16:57.73
David
It was a Sunday afternoon, nothing to watch on TV because football season was over. Wife's cooking in the kitchen. I mentioned for a drink. My daughter's in her room on her iPad watching videos. youtube kids And I figure, okay, she's not going to see me.

00:17:11.54
David
She's six years old. She is so focused on that screen. She won't even hear me.

00:17:14.33
Mike
huh Right.

00:17:16.09
David
I tiptoe into her room. I open the closet. I take out the bottle. I tilt my head back with the... you know, taking a nice long pull and all i hear behind me is mommy daddy's drinking olive oil

00:17:23.82
Bill
Right.

00:17:27.11
Mike
Mm hmm.

00:17:27.60
Bill
Ha ha! Wow. Okay.

00:17:29.34
David
And I just froze. And my wife was at the door in two seconds.

00:17:33.01
Mike
Right?

00:17:33.23
Bill
Right?

00:17:33.49
David
And she saw me with the bottle. And that's when everything became clear to her.

00:17:37.65
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:17:38.69
David
And that was my first moment of clarity that got me into treatment because for that split second, when I heard her voice say that.

00:17:39.44
Mike
Hmm.

00:17:47.17
David
I saw myself through her eyes.

00:17:48.73
Mike
Right.

00:17:49.01
Bill
Right.

00:17:49.54
Mike
Yeah.

00:17:49.81
David
And I said to myself, holy shit, she thinks this is normal.

00:17:53.22
Mike
Mm hmm.

00:17:54.89
David
The way I thought my dad's drinking was normal.

00:17:57.27
Mike
Right.

00:17:57.46
Bill
Right?

00:17:58.70
David
And that's what got me into treatment.

00:17:58.62
Bill
Right.

00:18:00.74
David
It just didn't click the first time.

00:18:02.86
Mike
Right.

00:18:03.29
David
why I should be there.

00:18:03.01
Mike
Yeah. Yeah. Doesn't for most of us.

00:18:06.48
David
Yeah.

00:18:06.87
Bill
Yeah.

00:18:07.42
David
But yeah, no, that's why the title of the first book is...

00:18:07.38
Bill
in

00:18:10.89
David
olive oil.

00:18:11.82
Mike
Mm hmm.

00:18:12.05
David
She thought the dark bottle of whiskey was a bottle of olive oil like the ones that we had in the kitchen.

00:18:14.70
Mike
Right. Sure.

00:18:16.04
Bill
Right

00:18:17.37
David
So.

00:18:17.59
Bill
But yeah, you know, the and the interesting thing, like when you were talking about your dad, I mean, my my dad was an alcoholic, enemy i mean but we we saw him. He was a little bit... A little bit.

00:18:26.68
Mike
citizen isn

00:18:27.11
Bill
He got more he got more off the off the rails. It was clear that he had a problem. we didn't know how I didn't know how to put a label on it at the time frame. But then he ended up, obviously, when they split, talking to us and blah, blah, blah. So then we knew what an alcoholic was and all those sort of things. but um And that was the one thing, though, with with my kids. I mean, I never got I never got busted by my kids. I never even got busted by my by my wives at the time, although my son's mom.

00:18:52.76
Bill
started marking the bottles. And the only reason I saw it, I told this on here before, she had this bottle of, she liked. rum, like Limon, Bacardi Limon.

00:19:02.72
David
Hmm.

00:19:02.40
Bill
Rum? And, I mean, if I didn't have anything else to drink, I mean, I'd drink a couple of beers. I'd go take a couple of big swigs of that because she always had, you know, again, the big. the big handle bottle of that. Which would last for fucking ever, you know, because I mean she didn't drink that much of it um

00:19:14.92
Mike
ccccc

00:19:18.45
Bill
But I remember I was in the kitchen and it was in the cupboard above the. uh the well not the refrigerator oh cover above this other area but it was on a top cupboard and i reached up and it just happened to be i was next to the sink and the sun came in and it's a clear bottle with a clear label and as i went to pull it up to my mouth i saw the mark on the side of the bottle completely by random chance.

00:19:41.08
David
Hmm.

00:19:41.05
Bill
And I looked and I'm like, What the? Fuck. So. I didn't drink it. And the next time I made her a drink, I paid attention to where that mark was and then looked the next day and there was a new mark on it. I'm like, oh, okay, so she's onto it. So, yeah, she was marking bottles. But then when you talked about, you know, your wife had said to you about, you know,

00:20:00.62
Bill
made her question her sanity and all those sort of things. I used to do that all the time. I was such a fucking idiot and an asshole to her because she'd be like, I know you were drinking today. I'm like, no, I wasn't. It's like I know the sun's shining today. It's bright and sunny out. No, it's not. There's clouds. Can't you see that?

00:20:15.43
Bill
No, it's that the sky is blue.

00:20:15.38
Mike
Right.

00:20:15.62
David
Yeah.

00:20:16.56
Bill
Are you ridiculous? It's green. I'm telling you, it's green.

00:20:18.80
Mike
Mm hmm.

00:20:20.41
Bill
and i would never i would I would lie and lie and lie. and she's like She used to tell me that. She's like, you're making me feel like I'm fucking crazy, which at the time, in my head, I'm like, I'm winning.

00:20:30.78
Bill
but

00:20:31.42
Mike
yeah

00:20:31.75
Bill
yeah yeah I mean you mean, that's, again, that's the mindset that that, well. I had, I think a lot of us do.

00:20:38.00
David
Yeah.

00:20:37.33
Bill
It's like, oh, I'm i'm winning the argument.

00:20:37.69
Mike
um

00:20:39.34
Bill
But I look back now and I'm like, fuck me, you know, these these poor people.

00:20:41.81
Mike
mm-hmm

00:20:43.28
Bill
And I mean, mike Mike knows my ex. She's a good woman.

00:20:45.82
Mike
Yep. Yes, she is. Yes.

00:20:47.10
Bill
Really, really good woman. You know, she didn't deserve.

00:20:48.12
Mike
Yeah.

00:20:48.65
Bill
I mean, we know that we nobody deserves any of our fucking bullshit. Right, Mike?

00:20:51.75
Mike
Exactly. Right. I mean, yeah, I used to, I did that too when I was, you know, yeah, when I was married and in relationships and stuff, same thing. Right. No, I haven't been drinking. What do you mean? I just cracked my first beer. What the hell are you talking about?

00:21:03.36
Mike
Right.

00:21:03.71
Bill
Yeah.

00:21:03.51
Mike
Yeah, exactly. when You know, I already had a fucking six pack in me um on the way home from work or whatever.

00:21:07.58
Bill
Yeah.

00:21:08.80
Mike
Right.

00:21:09.38
Bill
Right.

00:21:09.76
Mike
Um, yeah exactly you know and then well and then as i'm sitting listening to this i'm like yeah you know and then i just fucking got rid of them all because they were all in my way you know i mean yeah the last 10 years i wasn't in a relationship because i couldn't be because i didn't want to be because they were in my fucking way

00:21:19.65
Bill
Right.

00:21:28.49
Mike
and i you know selfish and self-centered man it wasn't it wasn't because i was trying to spare anyone's feelings or sanity or anything else i was they were fucking

00:21:28.83
David
yeah

00:21:38.66
Mike
speed bumps in the road to my drinking.

00:21:41.30
Bill
Right. Yeah.

00:21:42.34
David
Yep.

00:21:42.98
Bill
so the So the first book, David, when did when did you write the first book and explain that? Because the book that's out now is the second book. Or no.

00:21:49.99
David
ah Yeah, both books are out now. The first book I put out November of 24, of 25, 2025.

00:21:51.59
Bill
Okay.

00:21:54.94
Mike
Hmm.

00:21:54.95
Bill
Oh okay. Okay.

00:21:57.30
David
So ah one of the things that they encouraged us to do a lot in in group. was the journal.

00:22:02.70
Mike
and okay

00:22:03.55
David
And I've always liked to write. ever since i was young i just never pursued it because i never thought i was good enough

00:22:08.88
Mike
a

00:22:09.47
David
Um, So I never really. got into writing the way I should have. But once I started journaling every single day. I said, hey. i remember this feels good I like this.

00:22:20.29
Mike
Right.

00:22:21.40
David
So I just started writing to everything down. All the thoughts, everything that happened during the day. After I left treatment, I'm looking at these notebooks, about five or six of them. And I'm thinking to myself. What am I gonna do with this?

00:22:33.39
David
And I went through my 12 steps. they We're talking about service. I am not the most extroverted person.

00:22:41.26
Mike
Hmm.

00:22:41.75
David
i'm I'm actually... you Can't tell, but I'm actually very shy in person. and i said well i don't know how good i'm going to be at sponsoring But if I put a book out... and show people hey this is my story they can read it whenever they want They don't have to look me in the face.

00:22:57.83
David
I don't have to be embarrassed or or or or explain too much.

00:22:59.22
Mike
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

00:22:59.31
Bill
Right.

00:23:02.30
Mike
Right.

00:23:02.63
David
but maybe it'll help somebody. seek treatment because they can say, Hey, I'm not the only one going through this

00:23:08.12
Mike
Mm hmm.

00:23:08.65
David
Or you know look at this guy, 55 years old, and he went into treatment and got his life together. you know I can do the same thing.

00:23:13.04
Bill
Right.

00:23:15.06
David
Um, So the books came about from journaling. And from my desire to. Want to help people. Without making myself too uncomfortable, I guess.

00:23:24.64
Mike
good Yeah, I get it.

00:23:25.97
David
You know, and and it's a way, you know, it's also a way for me to help people and and not say, hey, look at who I helped. Because I don't know who I'm helping.

00:23:31.79
Mike
Mm hmm. Right.

00:23:33.30
Bill
Right.

00:23:34.14
David
You know, they just, if it helps them great.

00:23:37.16
Bill
Well, you know you know, it's funny too, is that when you say like introvert and stuff like that, and Mike, you just brought that up. I mean, literally. I don't know, probably like six, it was within the last year you talked about, we were talking about uncomfortable feelings and stuff like that.

00:23:46.83
Mike
Mm hmm. Right.

00:23:48.84
Bill
And then Mike, this again, my friend, Mike here that I'm talking with right now says he goes, yeah, he goes sometimes even a family events.

00:23:51.57
Mike
hehehehe Mm hmm.

00:23:55.33
Bill
Now he goes, I get a little, he goes, I get a little uncomfortable.

00:23:55.72
Mike
Yeah.

00:23:57.55
Bill
I said. Really?

00:23:59.17
Mike
Yeah.

00:23:59.45
David
Yeah.

00:23:59.83
Bill
I didn't fucking know. I've known this goddamn dude for 16 and a half years.

00:24:02.79
Mike
Yeah.

00:24:04.45
David
Wow.

00:24:04.55
Bill
It's just, it's nature. He's not as, I mean, Christ, I could have a conversation with a brick fucking wall.

00:24:09.42
Mike
Mm.

00:24:09.65
Bill
you know but

00:24:09.72
Mike
and have.

00:24:11.08
Bill
And have. And have.

00:24:11.57
Mike
Hehehehehehehehehehe.

00:24:13.92
Bill
But, yeah, it just kind of surprised me.

00:24:16.16
Mike
Huh?

00:24:15.91
Bill
But, you know, it's it's one of those things where the, i again, the funny part is the only time I ever noticed it is when, you know, we'll have a technology issue every once in a while and I've dropped off. And then it just literally, it's like a switch.

00:24:26.63
Mike
Hehehehe.

00:24:27.56
Bill
Somebody turns off a switch and Mike can't speak anymore. You know, it just, he loses loses the ability to speak.

00:24:30.24
Mike
Right.

00:24:30.72
David
Oh no.

00:24:33.31
Bill
And it's it's no goddamn different. It's just my, you know, i I'm just physically not there for a minute. But, and I'm not saying that I'm like. carrying my friend mike it just it it clicks in this something in his head that's like oh

00:24:41.33
Mike
No.

00:24:45.04
Mike
Right, well, yeah I mean, you know, honestly, you know, yeah, i had I had that crutch for most of my life, you know, or I, yeah, you know, I... ted to have a drink in me to be social to talk to people to all you know so yeah you know your way

00:24:56.47
Bill
Right

00:25:00.56
Mike
16 and a half years against. 30 years. it's it's I'm still fucking learning, man.

00:25:03.58
Bill
Right?

00:25:05.45
David
yeah

00:25:07.55
Bill
No, and and you know the the thing that is it's funny is that, in when and I know I've said this to you before, but when I say this openly, that when I was in in high school, um i was shy i wasn't like i mean completely introverted but i was not i was more of a to

00:25:19.20
Mike
Hmm.

00:25:23.76
Bill
Because I was so goddamn shy, I was like the class clown. That's what I did for attention.

00:25:27.62
Mike
Right.

00:25:28.23
Bill
did shit to get in trouble. And that was, you know, try to get people to laugh, you know, with me rather than at me type of thing, I think is that the mindset behind that, you know, from, from people and when people do those sorts of things.

00:25:29.58
Mike
Mm hmm. Right.

00:25:35.80
Mike
Mm hmm.

00:25:38.77
Bill
But it was, it was not until in my. probably mid twenties. I used to go out. I had a job, at had a sales job. And I'd go out and I was it i was cool. if i If I'd sit, I'd sit like at a maybe a conference table. okay And across the table from me, these are the people I'm presenting to. If I had one person in front of me.

00:25:56.81
Bill
Then one person on either side, maybe one more. So a total of four because I could get everyone in my peripheral vision. You know, nobody to the right of me, nobody behind me and nobody deep. I was just those few people I was cool. But you add another row of people or another people on the side, I'd start to freeze. I couldn't i couldn't do it. That took me a long time.

00:26:16.90
Bill
to to get used to but i mean then i then i was doing these seminars and do it in front of 50 people and in whatever the case is i'm like i don't fucking care anymore

00:26:18.63
David
Hmm.

00:26:25.09
Bill
you know But to begin with, it's a... It's tough, you know, and having a book like this to be able to do that. and And like you just said, maybe the, the audio only David, is that, is that. part of what makes it easier to do audio only for you if you're if you're more of an introvert.

00:26:40.48
David
Well, yeah. yeah the the audio only definitely makes it uh easier for me only because i'm not worried about how do i look on camera am i fidgeting You know, is my mouth hanging open?

00:26:46.86
Mike
Right.

00:26:47.47
Bill
Right.

00:26:48.80
Mike
Hmm.

00:26:50.61
David
Um, you know, just stupid shit like that goes through my head and then it throws me off and I can't focus on what I'm supposed to say.

00:26:50.65
Bill
Yeah.

00:26:53.05
Mike
right

00:26:57.86
Bill
Well, I mean, nobody nobody knows what to do.

00:26:58.20
David
Um,

00:26:59.21
Bill
if you If that's the only other thing about these video podcasts you look at, it be it's I mean, I have to be on Zoom meetings for work, and I just, I mean, it that kind of is what it is. But, you know, when you're when you're on a...

00:27:10.37
Bill
like a podcast like that, you're sitting there and you're supposed to be, if the other person is talking, the only thing you could do is just sit there and. Nod you know

00:27:19.27
Mike
Hehehehe.

00:27:19.24
Bill
Or don't. And if you don't nod, then you look like you're not paying attention. But if you do, then, you you know, or, oh, I'm going to put my my hand on my chin.

00:27:23.13
David
Right.

00:27:26.46
Bill
You're like, no, I look stupid. Then I'm going to put it on the side of my head like that looks stupid.

00:27:27.97
Mike
He he he he.

00:27:30.63
Bill
What if I cross my arms? No, I don't want to do that. Then you're not listening to the goddamn conversation. Like you said, David. I don't want to look as my mouth hanging open. Is that something in my tooth? Jesus Christ, you know?

00:27:41.80
David
Yeah, exactly.

00:27:42.08
Bill
It's just...

00:27:42.62
David
Well, no, I've i've done it i've done a three, four.

00:27:42.78
Bill
Two.

00:27:45.85
David
video podcast

00:27:46.100
Mike
Mm hmm.

00:27:46.95
Bill
Okay.

00:27:47.51
David
And in each one, I catch myself playing with my beard.

00:27:50.94
Bill
Right.

00:27:50.70
Mike
Yeah.

00:27:51.90
David
twirling it like I'm a little girl twirling her curls.

00:27:54.73
Bill
Right.

00:27:54.47
Mike
Yep.

00:27:55.34
David
you know And I'm like, okay, stop. Put your hand down. The fuck are you doing?

00:27:57.77
Bill
Right? right it's it yeah it' it's a nervous It's a nervous switch.

00:27:59.08
David
Oh.

00:28:01.12
Bill
i talk with my and That was one thing with our video our video podcast, and I do it too while I'm while i'm sitting here. but I was ridiculously animated when we were on the video. But I used to do the same thing when I trained in front of people. I was like, just my hands. I can't keep my hands still. I used to i used to hold a... um either a highlighter or a pen. I wouldn't hold a pen because I would click it. do this clicking all the time if I had a pen in my hand, but I would take a, like ah a highlighter or a marker and hold it in my hand.

00:28:28.91
Bill
to just remind myself, it's okay. You don't have to move your, if you wave around your fucking hands like an idiot. You got something there. You're good. You know, I just did that to distract me. So I wasn't doing that. it's just so it was so stupid these little isms that we have and that we figure out but I was still drinking at the time. I used to take a couple of shots before I do sessions like that to calm down too.

00:28:50.07
Bill
Well, I mean, nobody fucking do. I'm at the front of this thing. I'm at a podium. you know The closest person is you know probably 15 yards away from me. you know and by the time by the time everyone got you know By the time the booze wore off on me, the you know two, three shots that I took, you know the smell went away, so at least I think it did.

00:29:06.97
Bill
but be Before I forget, this is going to be, I'll have this in the.

00:29:07.92
David
Oh yeah.

00:29:12.18
Bill
in the notes, obviously in the, in the episode on whatever people are listening on, but your, your website, and I'm looking at it and that's what I wanted to make sure. I knew I looked at it before, but I just wanted to make sure. So it's David Garcia author. There's going to be a link. Everyone who's listening now can listen and click down in the notes. But I just looked up David Garcia, and then you put author in there, and you get to your your website. It's got both your books in there. and the Was ah the one that the newest one living after and then the first one was the olive oil one?

00:29:40.23
David
Yeah.

00:29:41.01
Bill
Okay, that's what I thought.

00:29:41.20
David
Yes.

00:29:41.92
Bill
That's what I thought.

00:29:42.82
David
Oh, and another question to anybody who wants to.

00:29:42.98
Bill
so

00:29:45.69
David
start their own website. Don't let ChatGPT pick the name.

00:29:48.83
Mike
who

00:29:49.68
Bill
Yeah.

00:29:51.95
Bill
Why is that?

00:29:52.89
David
Cause that's what it picked for me. David Garcia, author .com. And at the, at the time I was like, okay, you know, that sounds reasonable. And I'm looking back like, yeah. Snooze.

00:30:01.10
Mike
Hehehehehehe.

00:30:01.72
David
doesn't Doesn't create any sort of excitement.

00:30:04.11
Bill
But you know what?

00:30:04.24
David
But...

00:30:04.13
Mike
if

00:30:04.56
Bill
It's it's it's more so, and I'm going to only disagree for for this reason, is it is it should be... easy. You know, if you don't have to, people need to be able to, you, you could tell somebody and they don't have to write it down.

00:30:16.13
Bill
They're like, Oh, you're you're an author. It's David Garcia. If they put those three words into a search, they're going to find your website. you know So from from that standpoint, I'm going to say that it's not a bad idea, but I get it.

00:30:21.67
David
Yeah.

00:30:21.60
Mike
Right.

00:30:22.24
David
yeah No, you're right. You're right.

00:30:26.10
Bill
We got so lucky, both Mike and I, when we when we started. or we got the name and then we started looking for um when we first set up the website, which was, wasn't that like two?

00:30:31.99
Mike
m

00:30:37.37
Bill
month or so. It was when you were out in Wisconsin. So probably March area.

00:30:39.45
Mike
Yeah, yeah, yeah Yeah.

00:30:41.38
Bill
Yeah. So within a month, probably at a time we we started this whole thing. And then we started looking and I'm like, I told him i because I went to the. place where i got but my other website before And I'm like,

00:30:53.11
Bill
SoberNotMature .com is available. And he's like, Really?

00:30:55.91
Mike
if c

00:30:57.13
David
ah

00:30:57.51
Bill
And I'm like, yeah. And I mean, Sober Not Mature on Instagram, Facebook, we've never. Never. had a problem. mean You get the majors right there, Facebook, um Instagram, and then obviously the web.

00:31:08.80
Bill
And it's just.

00:31:09.44
David
Yeah.

00:31:10.28
Bill
we never had to do anything it's just how did

00:31:13.12
Mike
Yeah.

00:31:13.15
Bill
How did nobody, nobody, weren't it's not like we're intelligent or anything like that.

00:31:13.88
Mike
see No, no, no.

00:31:17.42
David
Yeah.

00:31:18.08
Bill
It was...

00:31:17.85
Mike
It's certainly not intelligent, certainly not original. Right. And yet no one had come up with it before us.

00:31:25.15
Bill
Yeah, and it was literally by accident the way we came up with the name. So, I mean, it just it was so stupid. But but anyhow, so.

00:31:30.22
David
That's fucking hilarious.

00:31:31.50
Bill
So yeah, so by by all means, obviously you want to visit David's website. We'll we'll plug it towards the, but obviously towards the end, it'll be in the notes. But as you were talking about the books, I wanted to bring that up. So tell us a little bit more about about the first book.

00:31:43.93
Bill
And I know you said it came from journaling, but then you're like, I want to put it into a book. Did you self-publish? Did you use a publisher? How did you go about that?

00:31:50.21
David
No, I self-published through Amazon on KDP.

00:31:50.54
Bill
I'm always interested. Okay.

00:31:53.30
Mike
Yeah.

00:31:52.96
Bill
Okay, yeah, so did I, so did I.

00:31:54.57
David
Yeah, and then I found out about IngramSpark

00:31:58.19
Mike
Mm hmm.

00:31:58.48
David
which IngramSpark is sort of a book retailer, wholesaler.

00:31:58.39
Bill
Don't know that.

00:32:03.96
David
for libraries, bookstores.

00:32:06.15
Bill
oh

00:32:06.54
David
things of that nature and they also do it internationally

00:32:09.63
Bill
Okay.

00:32:10.16
David
Then I said, well, what about Barnes & Noble? I'd like to sell it there.

00:32:14.29
Bill
Right.

00:32:14.61
David
BLM Press. they have their own amazon self-publishing site.

00:32:21.61
Mike
Hmm.

00:32:22.33
David
So I went on there and did it with them. Um, You know that So yeah, self-published completely. And I just found it easier that way. I don't take rejection well.

00:32:34.57
Mike
Really?

00:32:34.85
Bill
but Right.

00:32:35.89
David
And if I'm sending this out to publishers, I know I'm going to get it back with a a lot of nicely worded rejections, but rejection still hurts.

00:32:42.00
Mike
hu Right.

00:32:43.70
Bill
Right.

00:32:43.88
David
um especially i'll just put it out myself it's not that big a deal and it's not that hard to do

00:32:47.02
Mike
Mm hmm.

00:32:48.79
Bill
Right.

00:32:49.28
David
Um... But yeah, so the the book, yeah, it came from journaling. and as i'm writing it i said okay this is starting to sound a little you know, wishy-washy.

00:33:00.92
Mike
o

00:33:01.18
David
I needed to get real. I needed to just like really... Sigh. Rip the scab off. for lack of a better term.

00:33:09.03
Bill
Right.

00:33:08.88
Mike
Mm hmm.

00:33:10.30
David
i was like if i want somebody to actually understand that i know what they feel like

00:33:14.14
Mike
Mm hmm.

00:33:14.32
David
I need to get raw.

00:33:15.63
Mike
Right.

00:33:15.97
David
I need to just... Say what it was. and you know call it what it is. Yeah. So that's what I did with the first book. Anybody who reads it, they're going to be like.

00:33:27.00
David
Damn.

00:33:27.65
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:33:28.48
Bill
ah

00:33:28.51
David
The hell? it's easy buddy don't hate yourself so much

00:33:31.93
Mike
Right.

00:33:32.60
David
ah But it's not self-hatred. It's just... being completely honest.

00:33:34.62
Mike
ye Yeah. Right.

00:33:36.46
Bill
Right.

00:33:36.43
Mike
Yeah, we were pretty shitty people there for a while.

00:33:37.53
David
You know? Yeah. Exactly.

00:33:39.64
Bill
Right.

00:33:39.71
Mike
Hehehehehehehehe

00:33:40.08
David
We were pretty shitty people to people that didn't deserve to be shitted on.

00:33:43.17
Mike
oh

00:33:43.96
Bill
Right.

00:33:44.91
David
So... you know It's a great big mea culpa.

00:33:48.47
Mike
Yeah.

00:33:48.90
David
and And it was therapeutic, too, writing it.

00:33:52.07
Mike
Absolutely.

00:33:52.77
David
just helped me really deal with a lot of the demons that that I still hadn't faced.

00:33:57.75
Mike
Mm hmm.

00:33:58.67
David
Um, you know while getting sober. and uh you know the second book came about Just because I said, okay, I've been sober for two years, but nobody ever told me what to do once I get sober.

00:34:06.80
Mike
Right? o

00:34:10.21
David
You know, it's like, okay, you're sober. Yay. Go.

00:34:12.97
Mike
Yeah.

00:34:13.55
David
Go where, fuck?

00:34:14.37
Mike
Oh, yeah. yeah where What?

00:34:15.53
David
The fuck? Go?

00:34:16.12
Mike
Hehehehehehehehehehe.

00:34:17.34
Bill
Right.

00:34:17.62
David
where where Where am I supposed to go? What am I supposed to do? How am I?

00:34:20.87
Mike
Mm hmm.

00:34:21.03
David
No, just go. Go, go, go, go, go.

00:34:22.54
Mike
Yeah.

00:34:23.99
David
So I said, no, no, no. um i've For the past two years, I've been putting in the work.

00:34:28.49
Mike
Mm hmm.

00:34:28.70
David
It's not easy. i'm not going to get discouraged Let me let people know. what happens after you leave treatment.

00:34:35.10
Mike
all Right.

00:34:35.77
Bill
Right.

00:34:36.45
David
You know? don't expect that it's going to be all you know rainbows and blowjobs.

00:34:39.89
Mike
Yeah.

00:34:41.23
Bill
but

00:34:41.30
David
It's not.

00:34:42.68
Bill
that's a good one too that's a good one too yeah

00:34:43.54
David
For the most part.

00:34:43.51
Mike
That's good.

00:34:46.37
David
It's not all rainbows and blowjobs. I'm like... it could be i guess but not for me

00:34:50.21
Mike
Hmm.

00:34:51.44
David
And um you know people leave thinking, okay, now that I'm sober, everything is magically fixed.

00:34:51.27
Mike
Wow.

00:34:56.20
David
No, it's not.

00:34:56.61
Bill
Right.

00:34:57.79
David
it's not nobody really tells you in treatment they mention oh it's going to take work it's going to take practice but in a very general way. At least that was my experience.

00:35:10.10
David
and i said let me just put a book out there to tell people yeah it's gonna kick your ass

00:35:13.75
Mike
who

00:35:14.14
David
but you can still do it. And it's still kicking my ass. I've been sober two two years, three months and change.

00:35:17.18
Bill
Right.

00:35:20.57
David
I still don't know everything.

00:35:20.38
Mike
All right. Oh God.

00:35:22.12
Bill
Well, yeah.

00:35:22.44
Mike
Yeah. Well, yeah again, 16 and a half years still don't know everything.

00:35:24.02
Bill
Yeah.

00:35:25.75
David
There you go.

00:35:26.84
Bill
I was just gonna say the same goddamn thing.

00:35:26.66
Mike
Yes.

00:35:27.38
David
Yeah.

00:35:28.97
Bill
Well, yeah. Look look at us. We don't fucking know.

00:35:32.43
David
Yeah.

00:35:31.93
Mike
Hehehe.

00:35:32.29
Bill
So quick question. When you went through treatment, Were you introduced to or have you dabbled in any sort of community or anything like that with any sort of group or or no?

00:35:44.13
David
No.

00:35:45.02
Bill
Okay. so in treatment though were you introduced to anything in any treatment center any any type of like AA or anything like that or no?

00:35:46.20
David
No.

00:35:51.93
David
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. No, the detox that I went to was very big on AA.

00:35:52.78
Bill
Okay.

00:35:55.63
Mike
Mm hmm.

00:35:56.28
David
So we had people that would come in. a couple of times a week to talk about AA and they would run sort of an informal meeting.

00:36:03.03
Mike
Mm hmm.

00:36:03.67
David
When then I went to the treatment center, the rehab.

00:36:06.87
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:36:07.49
David
after that that, it was mandatory.

00:36:09.100
Bill
Right.

00:36:09.87
Mike
Right.

00:36:10.16
David
Every night at 7 o 'clock.

00:36:11.69
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:36:12.41
David
there was ah There was an AA. meeting

00:36:15.07
Mike
Mm hmm.

00:36:15.17
David
It was an H &I.

00:36:15.05
Bill
Right?

00:36:17.48
David
hospitals and institutions which is an organization in south florida that provides speakers to detoxes halfway houses

00:36:18.77
Mike
Right.

00:36:23.82
Bill
Sure.

00:36:23.81
Mike
Right.

00:36:24.23
David
treatment centers.

00:36:25.12
Mike
Mm hmm.

00:36:25.43
David
you know for AA and other 12-step programs. So that was mandatory every night.

00:36:28.49
Mike
Right.

00:36:30.33
David
Seven nights a week. 7pm.

00:36:31.92
Mike
Mm-hmm

00:36:33.22
David
And I got introduced to AA that way. And I had actually tried to go to AA before going into treatment.

00:36:40.40
Mike
he

00:36:41.27
David
Um, Because there was a one-week gap from when I got caught to when I... wound up in treatment the first time.

00:36:47.08
Bill
Right.

00:36:47.00
Mike
Right.

00:36:47.55
David
Because I told my wife I'll go to AA.

00:36:49.28
Mike
Right.

00:36:49.44
Bill
Right.

00:36:49.93
Mike
Of course.

00:36:51.07
David
Yeah. And I was drinking, going, hey, hey.

00:36:53.12
Mike
Oh yeah.

00:36:53.38
David
Every day.

00:36:54.13
Bill
I'm going to go put a band-aid on this.

00:36:53.93
Mike
Yeah.

00:36:55.94
Bill
Just settle down. It's good.

00:36:57.21
David
Yeah.

00:36:57.10
Bill
that Everything's fine.

00:36:57.68
Mike
Mm hmm.

00:36:57.95
David
It's going to be. okay

00:37:01.18
Mike
Hehehehe.

00:37:01.74
David
But no. so So, yeah, so that's where I really did get introduced to AA the proper way. way.

00:37:07.78
Mike
h

00:37:08.13
Bill
Okay.

00:37:08.62
David
And by the proper way, I mean... you know they explained to me what it really is. and and what What the 12 steps are, they're a guide.

00:37:14.42
Mike
Yeah.

00:37:17.35
David
for living.

00:37:18.66
Mike
here

00:37:19.13
Bill
Right, yeah

00:37:19.93
David
The way I interpreted it, the way they explained it to me, the way I understand it.

00:37:23.51
Mike
Yep.

00:37:23.80
David
It's a lifestyle. change.

00:37:25.02
Bill
Right.

00:37:24.92
Mike
Yep.

00:37:26.63
David
You know?

00:37:27.27
Mike
Absolutely.

00:37:27.62
David
and And it's about... Realizing you don't control shit.

00:37:31.98
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:37:33.06
Bill
Right?

00:37:33.63
David
Anything outside three, anything further than three feet away from you? You don't control.

00:37:38.37
Mike
No.

00:37:39.41
Bill
Yeah.

00:37:39.66
David
So...

00:37:40.38
Bill
Yeah, and you're lucky if you if you control any of that too.

00:37:43.20
David
Yeah, exactly exactly. Sometimes even internally.

00:37:45.18
Mike
Mm hmm.

00:37:47.14
Bill
Right.

00:37:47.32
David
Um,

00:37:47.18
Mike
Right.

00:37:48.51
David
But yes, I was introduced to AA. I did the 12 steps. um the first time obviously i did it half-assed the second time i really really dug into it and uh i try to practice these principles in all my affairs

00:37:54.68
Mike
o

00:38:02.45
Mike
Yes

00:38:03.64
Bill
Right.

00:38:03.78
Mike
Yeah.

00:38:04.72
Bill
Yeah, that's ah just kind of curious because I know that and i um you know i I didn't hear that in your initial story. Not that we care one way or the other. and we're We're really, really open about that. I mean, we we both of us were brought up you know by AA and in AA.

00:38:18.72
Bill
Mike has had experience with other other sort of recovery programs.

00:38:19.09
Mike
Mm hmm.

00:38:22.60
Bill
I never did. I only had the experience with AA. Even with my dad, it's what he did. um you know But we've met in the last you know four and a half years since we've been doing this, we've met people that have done.

00:38:33.44
Bill
um a little bit of everything.

00:38:36.01
Mike
Mm hmm.

00:38:36.41
David
Hmm.

00:38:36.10
Bill
you know And, you know, those again, one guy we were talking to that was explaining that he I think he he said that. He went to One meeting was a guy from New Mexico.

00:38:46.88
Bill
He went to one meeting and then just started doing it on his own, did some therapy.

00:38:47.03
Mike
Mm hmm.

00:38:49.94
Bill
And he's going through these things and explaining that he goes, he goes, I ended up getting a mentor and he did this and he will guide me.

00:38:52.41
Mike
sinceton

00:38:55.91
Bill
and Then I would sit down and explain these things. And he's going through. in his own way, the the steps of Alcoholics Anonymous or the steps of of a sort of 12-step program without having gone through it.

00:39:01.89
Mike
Mm hmm. Yeah.

00:39:06.82
Mike
Right. Mm hmm.

00:39:07.94
Bill
And he got done with it. And I said to Mike, I'm like, does that sound familiar?

00:39:11.60
Mike
Hehehe.

00:39:11.54
Bill
He's like, yeah. He goes, he just explained the 12 steps. He just laughed.

00:39:13.87
David
Yeah.

00:39:14.29
Bill
He's like, what, really?

00:39:15.77
Mike
a

00:39:16.64
Bill
And.

00:39:16.87
David
Well, yeah, yeah it's it's funny you mention that because it's something that I realized.

00:39:17.33
Bill
So...

00:39:21.50
David
after getting into AA.

00:39:22.93
Mike
Mm hmm.

00:39:23.11
David
um that a lot of these other 12-step programs are based on AA's philosophy. of 12 steps.

00:39:28.62
Mike
Yeah.

00:39:28.64
Bill
Sure yeah. Yeah.

00:39:29.79
Mike
Right.

00:39:30.58
David
Maybe not exactly the same 12 steps, but very, very close.

00:39:32.43
Mike
Mm hmm. Yeah, I mean, it's it right. It's the same thing. You know, I mean, it's the basic stuff, right? You know, you you admit you're powerless. You don't fucking control everything. You figure out something bigger than yourself has to you need to be a part of and is going to help you.

00:39:47.88
Mike
And then you look at yourself and you. You see, okay, this this is a good part of me. This is a bad part of me. You fucking share it with somebody.

00:39:55.04
David
Yeah.

00:39:56.44
Mike
Then you start getting rid of the bad shit. Then you make amends and make up for all the crap that you did. And then you help the next guy. and You know, right.

00:40:06.19
Bill
Yeah.

00:40:06.47
David
Yeah.

00:40:06.27
Mike
And you continue to do it.

00:40:06.98
Bill
Yeah.

00:40:08.66
Mike
You continue to live by principles that are better than your own ideals.

00:40:14.12
David
Exactly.

00:40:13.98
Mike
and Yeah, right.

00:40:15.32
David
Yeah.

00:40:15.70
Mike
You know, and that's it. You know, and you can label it and call it whatever you want. You can break it down into 12 steps or you can just. Become a better person by, by you know. you know admitting you have no power, finding something that's bigger than you, cleaning up your garbage, and moving on and being a better person.

00:40:34.88
David
yeah

00:40:34.80
Bill
Right.

00:40:35.30
Mike
Yeah, that's it.

00:40:37.11
David
Just try to be better today than you were yesterday.

00:40:37.30
Bill
And the...

00:40:39.21
Mike
Exactly.

00:40:40.36
Bill
Well, even even you said, David, I mean, the the steps are, you know, just a, I mean, it's basically, it's ah it's a guide to life. and And it really is. And our sister had mentioned that when when we had her. we had her on a couple of times, but you know, she, she's a normie, but she said, yeah, she's like, you know, i when you really look at it, I mean, after she was listening to when we first started this, as we were talking through a lot of these things, not that we had never talked about it, but we just did it more openly on here.

00:40:51.92
Mike
Mm hmm.

00:41:05.15
Bill
More vocally, I guess, probably a better way to put it.

00:41:06.95
Mike
Right.

00:41:07.79
Bill
And then she's like, oh, you know, I'm thinking about that. You guys are talking about it. She's like, I could use something like that in my life, you know.

00:41:12.91
Mike
He he he he he he he.

00:41:13.75
David
ah

00:41:13.77
Bill
And it had nothing to do with, she doesn't have a problem with.

00:41:16.73
Mike
No.

00:41:17.24
Bill
she just say She has no...

00:41:17.63
Mike
Subtitles.

00:41:17.70
David
No.

00:41:18.70
Bill
Yeah, no substance, no addictive issues, nothing like that, you know.

00:41:21.83
Mike
Right.

00:41:22.33
Bill
But it just a matter, and I had one other, actually a couple other people over the years, you know, plenty of people, I'm sure.

00:41:25.61
Mike
hu

00:41:26.70
Bill
But I remember one or two in particular that said the same thing. They're normies that had listened to our podcast and just kind of like.

00:41:31.52
Mike
mm-hmm

00:41:32.53
Bill
These are kind of life things, you know

00:41:34.33
Mike
Yeah, absolutely.

00:41:34.63
Bill
and i'm like Yeah, that's exactly what it is.

00:41:36.35
Mike
Yeah, you know, and again, share it with, you know, family members and friends and stuff that are normal and they'll be having some sort of issue or whatever.

00:41:37.07
David
Yeah.

00:41:43.93
Mike
And i'll I'll kind of shoot them, you know, the direction of how we handle things. And they go, wow, that's really good. I'm going to use that. It's like, yeah, please do. It makes us better people.

00:41:56.35
Bill
Right?

00:41:57.18
David
Yep.

00:41:57.48
Bill
Well, it was funny my when my son was, I don't know, he see he just turned 26 recently, but I think he was probably. God, this might have been 10 years ago, maybe, somewhere in that range.

00:42:06.97
Mike
Mmm.

00:42:08.26
Bill
He was probably 16, 17 years old. he was under the the legal age of drinking, but...

00:42:13.65
Mike
Mm.

00:42:14.00
Bill
The short story, and we've talked about it on here, my ex and I sat down with him and basically said, you know, we we get it. You know, you kids get out there, you do your thing. ah we We weren't trying to teach him how to drink, but letting him know that if you are going to drink, you need to be responsible and hit him with some guidelines. And, you know, ah the most important one, you know, don't drive, don't get in the car with somebody, all those sort of things. But if you need somebody, call us, you know.

00:42:35.64
Bill
And he did several times. And he and he was always... open with us after we had that conversation with him and, you know, he knew, he knew what my deal was and I wasn't looking at him going. God damn it.

00:42:47.62
Bill
You can't drink. I'm an alcoholic. You could be too. Only thing I ever told him after I got sober is I said, just understand the the family the family lineage. That's it. That's all you got to do. I said, i don't need you don't need to be afraid of it.

00:42:58.62
Bill
Just be aware of it. That's it.

00:43:00.07
Mike
Bye.

00:43:00.36
Bill
You know, and if you have a problem, talk to me. That's it. you know but um It was funny because he had this he had this one incident. It wasn't a big deal, but he got kind of out of control. and then I don't know if it was. I think he he came and talked to me because my ex was on him a little bit. She was worried about him, so she reacted. He's telling me about this and blah, blah, blah.

00:43:22.23
Bill
And I told him I and I just I started asking him some questions, you know, and I said, so let me ask you a question. I'm like. ah This is the obvious one. I said, I'm sure you don't do this. if you're not drinking right and he's like no i never do that you know whatever the thing was you know And I said, well, you know, the same line of questioning. do you when you had the most issues where either...

00:43:41.25
Bill
somebody gets upset with you, you know, you make somebody worried, whatever the deal is, is it usually when you're drinking or not drinking sort of thing? He's like, usually only if I'm drinking. And I said, okay, then be mindful of that, you know?

00:43:51.31
Mike
m

00:43:52.14
Bill
And I said, the next time you go out, um I said, what you what you need to do, as I said, for whatever reason you're hitting, you seem to be this. I'm like, I know it doesn't happen all the time. Right. He's like, no.

00:44:03.70
Bill
I said, okay, so. I told him, I said, you need to find you need to find that mark. you know I said if you're going to drink, you need to understand and be mindful of at some point you're going to lose your fucking mind as you have.

00:44:14.22
Bill
And whatever the combination is, you know.

00:44:14.46
Mike
Mm hmm.

00:44:15.97
David
Hmm.

00:44:16.90
Bill
You got to figure it out. You know, so he's like, OK, you know, so I'm trying to try to let him know. I'm trying to give him the tools to say, OK, if I have a problem. I'm gonna go figure it out.

00:44:27.19
Bill
without telling him. you if you have a problem you need to go figure it out you know

00:44:30.56
Mike
fifty

00:44:31.93
Bill
But that's the that's the information I put into his head, which is what we're taught. you know to talk to people about.

00:44:36.54
Mike
Right.

00:44:37.19
Bill
you know, to talk to alcoholics, although I didn't think my son had a drinking problem and I don't think he does today.

00:44:42.02
Mike
right

00:44:42.52
Bill
you know but I get this. I sent my ex a text like the next day and I said, I said, Oh, how's, how's he doing? How's my, how's Derek doing? Blah, blah, blah. She's like, he's good. And I said, did he tell you that we talked? And she's like, yeah. you told him to go out and be more responsible drinking. And I said,

00:44:58.12
Bill
Can I call you?

00:44:59.30
David
yeah

00:44:59.26
Mike
Hehehehehehehehehehe.

00:45:00.74
Bill
and and i'm like oh fuck me i'm like something got lost in translation here right

00:45:05.07
Mike
Mmm.

00:45:06.27
Bill
So I get around the phone and I said, I said. Just so you know, I said, i didn't that's not what I told him. She's like, well, you told him this, this, and this. And I told her the why behind it. And she's like, I thought it might have had something to do with you know your fucking program.

00:45:18.35
Bill
and And she didn't mean it in ah in a bad way.

00:45:18.58
Mike
ah she Right.

00:45:21.70
Bill
And she's just like she's just like it just sounds. she i don't I don't like it because I don't... I could just because it just sounds weird, you know, or whatever it was. And I said, he's got to figure this out.

00:45:31.94
Bill
He can't let any any one of us tell us there's a problem. I said, I don't think there is a problem.

00:45:34.98
Mike
Right.

00:45:37.24
Bill
I said, I think he has problems when he goes a little bit too far, you know, but I said he could be a normal person to go a little bit too far. I don't think he doesn't have to be doomed to a life of whatever, you know, of a stereotype if that's not what he is.

00:45:51.05
Bill
And whatever the deal is, I mean, it's been let's say it's 10 years ago.

00:45:54.04
Mike
right

00:45:54.68
Bill
I haven't heard of an incident that he's had in. fucking years you know

00:45:57.63
Mike
Right.

00:45:58.38
Bill
Now, did what I say help?

00:45:58.98
David
Yeah.

00:45:59.52
Bill
I don't know you know. Did he just figure it out on his own? Probably. Okay, but... The whole point there is that you know having anyone get out there and force feed you with this shit or or put a label on you or whatever or try to say this is the only way to do whatever the thing is, it's just not going to fucking work.

00:46:15.56
Mike
here

00:46:17.21
Bill
you know?

00:46:17.28
Mike
Right

00:46:17.42
Bill
So I don't know.

00:46:18.13
David
No.

00:46:18.42
Bill
We all, we all kind of got to figure it out on our own, I guess is my, my long rambling point, but it was, it was funny. I mean, just like he told me, go be responsible, drink.

00:46:26.57
Mike
He he he he he he he.

00:46:26.31
Bill
Ah, fuck.

00:46:27.35
David
yeah

00:46:28.14
Bill
I got to call you. I got to call you now.

00:46:30.31
David
Yeah.

00:46:30.30
Bill
Because I get along with her really well. I don't want me to get that all fucked up. so Um, But what do you think, Mike? shu we Is this a good? Good breaking point.

00:46:38.88
Mike
You know, I think it is. We're going to go out and we're going to sit here for a minute and contemplate drinking responsibly right after these words from our sponsors.

00:46:40.79
Bill
Okay.

00:46:44.12
David
plate <unk>sibly right after these words from our sponsors

00:46:57.71
Bill
All. All right, everyone, welcome back. Yeah.

00:47:00.53
Mike
yeah All right.

00:47:01.43
Bill
God.

00:47:01.32
Mike
So the three of us, right?

00:47:01.84
David
Three of them.

00:47:02.55
Mike
We've got three alcoholics right here. Did any of us figure out how to drink responsibly in that break?

00:47:04.41
Bill
Yes.

00:47:05.04
David
Ew.

00:47:07.09
Bill
Ah. i was I was just going to say, you you can give me two minutes or 20 minutes or 20 years, and I'm not going to figure it out.

00:47:08.55
Mike
He he he he he he.

00:47:13.10
Mike
Thank you.

00:47:13.23
Bill
so i guess my

00:47:13.86
David
Never.

00:47:14.23
Mike
Hehehehe.

00:47:14.90
Bill
I guess my my answer my answer is no.

00:47:15.04
David
ever.

00:47:16.68
Bill
but so my My next question for you, David, I know the second book, and that's the reason why I wanted to ask you about, you know, obviously the, whatever the guidance was, because I know you said that, you know, obviously nobody really gives you the, I mean.

00:47:29.63
Bill
we get a book, you know, obviously in AA and we get guide guidance from people and stuff like that, but you know, life still comes along. So, so your point was trying to get down. to put it on paper just, you know, so people have a reference guide to say, if nothing else, to look at you and say, this is what I've dealt with for the first couple of years, correct?

00:47:47.62
David
Correct.

00:47:48.25
Bill
Okay, so... Give us a little bit more insight about about you know what you what you went through in that first year. I mean, there had to be the high points and the low points. I mean, what have you what have been your biggest takeaways from that whole thing?

00:47:59.97
David
Um... The biggest takeaway I've gotten from it for the past two years is... No matter how... sorry you are for what you did.

00:48:10.59
David
And no matter how good your amends are. People will start to trust you again on their own timeline.

00:48:16.94
Bill
Right?

00:48:17.11
Mike
Yes.

00:48:18.10
David
Not on yours. Just because you went to treatment.

00:48:21.03
Mike
Hey.

00:48:21.35
David
Just because you said, I'm sorry. Just because you said, hey, this is what I'm going to do better.

00:48:22.51
Mike
Uh-huh.

00:48:23.27
Bill
Right.

00:48:25.90
Mike
Mm hmm.

00:48:26.10
David
Doesn't mean they have to trust you right away.

00:48:27.76
Mike
Oh God, no.

00:48:29.06
David
Cause you know, you spent years destroying that trust.

00:48:28.82
Bill
Wherever.

00:48:30.97
Mike
Yeah. Absolutely.

00:48:32.78
David
It's going to probably take years to get it back.

00:48:35.02
Mike
Mm hmm.

00:48:35.37
Bill
Right.

00:48:35.80
David
And so the most valuable thing I learned was to be patient with that.

00:48:39.22
Mike
whom

00:48:39.45
Bill
Yeah.

00:48:39.90
David
not to assume that they've given up on me.

00:48:40.07
Bill
Right?

00:48:42.51
David
They're never going to trust me again.

00:48:42.37
Mike
Right?

00:48:43.48
David
No, they'll trust me.

00:48:45.02
Mike
Meh.

00:48:45.08
David
when they're ready to trust me.

00:48:46.66
Mike
Right.

00:48:47.37
David
And I've got nobody to blame but myself for that.

00:48:49.18
Mike
Absolutely.

00:48:49.47
Bill
Right.

00:48:49.83
Mike
Absolutely.

00:48:50.70
David
You know.

00:48:50.80
Mike
And, and you know, and Conversely, they may never trust you again, totally.

00:48:55.77
Bill
Right.

00:48:55.79
Mike
And that's okay, too.

00:48:56.47
David
Yeah.

00:48:56.43
Bill
Right.

00:48:57.38
Mike
We accept that, you know, again, taking that responsibility.

00:48:57.89
David
Exactly.

00:49:00.46
Mike
You know, one of the biggest freedoms this program gave me was the fact that Everything is my fault. And I have no control over anyone else.

00:49:11.84
Mike
And it's freeing. It's amazing.

00:49:13.90
Bill
Right.

00:49:15.51
Mike
I take full responsibility for everything that's happened to me, good and bad.

00:49:20.45
David
Hmm.

00:49:19.78
Mike
And. And. um Yeah, you know, and and and nobody can can take that away from me.

00:49:27.36
Bill
Right.

00:49:27.75
David
and And, you know, there's there's actually something very powerful about owning up.

00:49:31.78
Mike
h

00:49:32.05
David
to your mistakes. Because nobody can hold it against you.

00:49:33.42
Mike
Yes. Right.

00:49:35.15
David
Nobody can hold it over you.

00:49:35.34
Bill
Right.

00:49:36.60
Mike
Mm hmm.

00:49:37.66
David
You know, you own it. It can't hurt you.

00:49:41.07
Bill
Right.

00:49:41.10
Mike
Right. Exactly. as much And sometimes as much as they try to. Right.

00:49:46.68
David
yeah you're right

00:49:46.66
Mike
Yeah, because that will happen.

00:49:48.05
Bill
Eh? Yeah.

00:49:48.60
Mike
That will happen. But you go, no, no, I beat you to it.

00:49:49.58
David
Yeah, well.

00:49:51.87
Mike
Yes, it's my fault. Absolutely. 100%. I did everything. I ruined this entire situation. Now what?

00:50:02.60
Bill
Well, you know, what ah there's two things.

00:50:02.72
David
Oh yeah.

00:50:04.16
Bill
I want you to tell them the Vinny thing here in a minute, are what Vinny told you about the woods and stuff like that.

00:50:06.87
Mike
Mm. Yes.

00:50:09.17
Bill
But I was just thinking about my... Again, you know, people trusting and that sort of thing. Probably the two hardest relationships that I had as far as mending was my son's mom.

00:50:19.28
Mike
Mm hmm.

00:50:19.69
Bill
Because she ended up, I mean, she got really the the worst of me. I mean, yeah, Kathy, our sister, was there and our mom and all that stuff. But as far as really probably getting the worst of me, my narcissistic and all that.

00:50:30.56
Bill
behavior was you know she got the worst of it But then, um you know, I mean, I had alienated my daughter. And then when she came back into my life at, well, a little over two years sober, I had, again, that patience thing, David, which I'm i'm an impatient fucking person.

00:50:39.45
Mike
h

00:50:44.16
David
Hmm.

00:50:43.62
Bill
I mean, horribly impatient. And Mike used to love throwing that throwing that story up to people in group, which I'll tell you in a minute too.

00:50:48.22
Mike
Hehehehe. Mhm.

00:50:50.86
Bill
but um there was this one thing with my with my ex because she and i had this um we had this volatile side to our relationship because she's ridiculously stubborn so am i this is my son's mom but then add a little bit of my egotism and my alcoholism on it just everything was fun You know, so I was probably I don't know, maybe I was probably four years sober at the time. So I had plenty of time, at least in my opinion, under my belt. You know, not not enough, but I mean, I had some time under me.

00:51:18.98
Bill
And I remember her. telling me something and it either she emailed me or said it to me, whatever the case was, I think we were on the phone and it was one of those that, okay, this is the way it's going to be. And I've got this, and this is happening in my life and that's the way it's going to be. And I just said, I'm like, okay, that's cool.

00:51:35.26
Bill
And then there was a silence and she's like. Okay. Okay. yeah it Because what she was waiting for was for me to fucking argue with her.

00:51:44.18
David
Yeah.

00:51:44.85
Bill
And rightfully so, you know, but again, that was four years in or whatever the case was. She and I had built this relationship back. It was good. I wasn't being a dick to her or anything like that. But these memories don't they just don't go away. And and we have to understand that if if tomorrow.

00:52:01.40
Bill
Somebody close to me, let's say our our sister or our cousin or anyone, looked at me a little fucking funny about whatever, you know, maybe the way I used to be or whatever the case was.

00:52:04.43
Mike
Mm hmm.

00:52:10.64
Bill
I can't look at them and be like. What the fuck is wrong with you? you know Can you count 16 and a half years?

00:52:14.27
Mike
Right.

00:52:16.85
Bill
I mean, give me a fucking break.

00:52:17.59
David
Hmm.

00:52:18.97
Bill
if somebody decides that they have an issue with me or some memory comes up today

00:52:22.36
Mike
Mm hmm.

00:52:23.70
Bill
I got to take it, you know, and we've talked about that, you know.

00:52:24.57
Mike
Yep.

00:52:25.21
David
Yeah. Oh yeah.

00:52:27.54
Bill
So...

00:52:27.41
Mike
Again, it's it's that freedom of responsibility. yeah Yes, I am responsible.

00:52:30.53
Bill
Yeah.

00:52:31.66
Mike
Absolutely. and And it's freedom. Yes. If it comes up after 16 years. Okay. Yep. I did it.

00:52:38.78
Bill
right yeah it's in you know to to begin with it used to be fucking painful it's not anymore it's actually like i just just one more thing that i'm like oh god i didn't i forgot that that was there cool that's another thing that that now i know that that's not embedded in somebody's head anymore You know, I mean, again, what a fucking gift that I get to help to help clear that up today.

00:52:44.80
Mike
m

00:52:54.26
Mike
Mm hmm.

00:52:59.32
Bill
But um so anyhow, we had a friend. His name was Vinny. So tell me what he used to say about the woods, you know, kind of.

00:53:03.39
Mike
Oh yeah, right. Well, it's early sobriety and it's, yes, absolutely.

00:53:05.64
David
variety it is

00:53:06.60
Mike
You know, you don't walk 10 miles into the woods, turn around, take two steps and expect to be out of the woods.

00:53:08.04
David
Don't walk 10 miles. Turn around.

00:53:13.56
Mike
Yeah, we walked in deep, man.

00:53:14.37
David
Okay.

00:53:15.21
Mike
We walked in deep, and it's going to take us a long time to walk back out.

00:53:16.56
David
Yeah.

00:53:19.67
Mike
you know um and hopefully and hopefully we're walking in a different direction we're not going back to where we were we're walking out of the woods in a different direction to a whole new life and um yeah it's it's spectacular but there's still fucking trees around us man

00:53:20.49
David
No.

00:53:30.47
Bill
Right.

00:53:36.06
Mike
There's still trees.

00:53:38.74
David
Constantly.

00:53:39.71
Mike
Yeah. And that's okay.

00:53:40.77
David
Constantly.

00:53:41.67
Bill
Right.

00:53:42.10
Mike
Because we planted those goddamn trees.

00:53:44.24
David
Yeah.

00:53:44.85
Bill
Well, it's just just such such a great analogy to what you were talking about, David, saying that you know that that patience and that you know we took years and years of of all these things and um you know however many years of being being a fucking idiot. and you know it's like the I started you know kind of feeling milestones as you know as we as we end up getting more time. And you know it was one of those things that was on my mind for a while. It's like, okay, so...

00:54:06.63
Bill
And again, same thing with my son's mom. She and I were together a total of six years, no seven, no six years. I'm sorry. And then, um, it took like a year between then when we split up in our divorce, but you know, I was like, okay, so.

00:54:20.09
Bill
But we were married for this amount of time and then we were together for this. So how long do I need to to be sober that I was still a dick to her for the first couple of years? So all these things, I'm trying to do the math in my head, right?

00:54:31.04
Bill
Figuring out where's my even point.

00:54:33.39
David
Hmm.

00:54:33.76
Bill
Not really even, but you know and not to be able to walk up to her and say, hey, by the way. You know, i i've I've outdone myself based on being a dick to you, but it was a it was a goal sort of to be like, okay.

00:54:45.77
Bill
I get to be a good person now longer than I was a dick to somebody.

00:54:46.97
David
good motion now

00:54:50.22
Bill
And that is that it's nice.

00:54:50.13
Mike
Mm hmm.

00:54:51.72
Bill
I don't look at it as an egotistical type of thing, but it's again, it's a kind of a freedom thing. Like um I still. I can't expect everything to be perfect but at least I've been out there trying to do that next right thing for longer than I was trying to do the next wrong thing.

00:55:06.24
Bill
you know, and fuck with people. And I mean, that in and of itself is it's an accomplishment. It's a quiet one. I don't need to tell anyone about it, you know, but it's just it's a quiet accomplishment that I that I enjoy, you know.

00:55:12.73
Mike
Mm hmm.

00:55:13.03
David
Mm hmm.

00:55:19.40
Bill
But so with the, again, kind of like the the whole point of the second book and in that sort of thing. So um same type of thing. You were trying to get the thing in place. Was that also journaling or did you just, you you literally sat down and I'm going to write a book and get this down on paper. How did you do that?

00:55:34.79
David
I actually kept journaling after I left therapy.

00:55:36.40
Bill
Okay.

00:55:37.38
David
After I left treatment.

00:55:37.41
Mike
Mm hmm.

00:55:39.07
David
I continue to journal every day, and I still do. I still journal because there's there's one more book in there. um

00:55:44.33
Mike
ccc

00:55:46.11
David
Uh, but yeah, uh, journaling every day. um And I just took. Well, I... did What I had learned for myself, but that I also spoke to my family.

00:55:56.29
Bill
Right.

00:55:56.60
David
And I asked them what their perspective was on you know how how I have been doing. for the past two years.

00:56:02.53
Mike
Right.

00:56:02.91
David
Uh, couldn't use anything my mother said.

00:56:05.63
Mike
Hmm.

00:56:05.75
David
because that was just way too sugary, saccharine.

00:56:05.90
Mike
Hmm.

00:56:10.44
David
People would have gotten diabetes.

00:56:11.93
Mike
Right.

00:56:12.25
David
reading that.

00:56:12.35
Bill
ah

00:56:12.92
David
So I left that part out, but my brother gave me some good insights. My ex gave me some good insights. and uh much like your much like yourself bill my ex and i we've got a great relationship now

00:56:26.48
Bill
Good.

00:56:26.95
David
You know, we've got a very good relationship. We co-parent. extremely well. Um, And she's made it clear that, you know, she's still hurting, but she doesn't hold it against me when it comes to our daughter.

00:56:39.42
Bill
Right.

00:56:40.18
David
And, you know, so

00:56:40.11
Mike
That's good.

00:56:42.26
David
She gave me some insights as well. um I spoke to a few other friends who told me, you know, you can still be a dick sometimes. and i'm like Nobody's perfect.

00:56:51.62
Bill
Right.

00:56:51.72
David
Nobody's perfect. I've made my peace with it and moved on. So should you.

00:56:54.87
Bill
Right.

00:56:55.15
David
But they don't see it that way. um But yeah, it's the second book, again, therapeutic.

00:57:03.48
Mike
Right?

00:57:04.04
David
Very therapeutic for me. and The thing that I'm hoping to happen with the second book is someday my daughter will read it. and realize that if she ever needs to get help,

00:57:15.11
David
She can ask for it.

00:57:16.46
Mike
Mm hmm.

00:57:16.62
David
That she shouldn't be afraid to ask for it because there is a way.

00:57:16.59
Bill
Right.

00:57:19.83
David
We do recover.

00:57:21.25
Mike
Right.

00:57:21.89
Bill
Right.

00:57:22.12
David
You know? We do rebuild our lives. We do move on. We do move forward. We get better.

00:57:26.91
Mike
Mm hmm.

00:57:27.16
David
and if she should ever happen to suffer from the same affliction. I want her to know. She can get help if she wants it.

00:57:35.14
Mike
Right.

00:57:35.88
David
that it is there and it's possible.

00:57:37.72
Mike
Mm hmm.

00:57:39.67
Bill
Yeah, and I mean, that's the we talk about that quite a bit. I mean, Mike mike goes to you know his one meeting a week and you do it. He's openly said it, you know, to be to be of service.

00:57:48.12
Mike
Yeah. Mm hmm.

00:57:49.65
Bill
um I do not go to meetings on a regular basis anymore. I do when I'm out in Cleveland because I love, you know, being back in in that area. That's where I again, kind of where I grew up and in this whole thing. But i mean we do.

00:58:00.61
Bill
We do this every week. This is an opportunity for us to give back. If I'm ever asked to do something, I will, you know certainly. But the the thing that we talk about. On a semi-regular basis, since we're not really out there, we're not like these guys that have had hundreds of sponsors or sponsees and are out there helping guys all the time.

00:58:18.12
Mike
m

00:58:20.36
Bill
And we do when we're asked. Not on the front lines, I guess, all the time. but

00:58:24.79
Mike
Right.

00:58:25.65
Bill
You never know. You know, whether it's whether it's a family member, somebody watching you from the sidelines, you know, that you don't even know that's watching you um or when you get that opportunity.

00:58:33.08
David
Mm hmm.

00:58:35.53
Bill
you know, to to say some... kind words to somebody and you don't know you know you find out years later you know i ah Back in whatever year you said this, or I heard you say this, and it meant something to me.

00:58:45.56
Bill
And you're like. Really? I don't remember fucking saying it, you know?

00:58:47.45
Mike
yeah

00:58:48.82
Bill
But but that's the point, you know, because, again, practicing these principles in all our affairs, we've got to get out there, if nothing else, and it be whatever whatever example we are and whatever example.

00:58:48.94
David
yes

00:58:59.58
Bill
people see out there are the things that they're going to remember. It doesn't matter. I mean, yeah, we, we get on here for an hour or somebody just listened to this, man maybe not the greatest, the greatest slice of our recovery, but I think it is in most cases.

00:59:11.19
Bill
um Some people might look at it and be like, well, they're mouthy motherfuckers.

00:59:11.14
Mike
Right?

00:59:13.84
Mike
Mm hmm.

00:59:14.84
Bill
and

00:59:14.68
David
Oh, are you kidding me? You guys make me laugh at work.

00:59:16.53
Mike
oh Good.

00:59:16.66
Bill
well Thank you.

00:59:18.53
David
I keep you guys in one year at work and I'm laughing and people are looking at me like, what the fuck?

00:59:18.10
Bill
Thank you.

00:59:22.90
Mike
Hehehehe.

00:59:23.85
Bill
but you know But the thing of it is is that we found out that you know we get people from, ah you know friends from ah of ours from Cleveland that listen. um My son listened for a number of years, you know and I don't think he listens anymore.

00:59:32.99
Mike
Mm hmm.

00:59:34.94
Bill
But then I'm starting to think, I'm like, oh, fuck, what what episodes was he listening to? What did I say? And then I'm like, ah, fuck it.

00:59:40.19
Mike
Right. Doesn't matter.

00:59:41.25
Bill
what ah It doesn't matter what I said, you know, because the the thing of it is in the going back to the editing part of it or editing part of it.

00:59:44.23
David
Yeah.

00:59:48.93
Bill
is that I suppose, and we've talked about it, Mike and I have, that if either one of us happened to, which I don't think it's going to happen, but if either one of us happened to be like unloaded something where...

01:00:00.13
Bill
We had a second thought about it.

01:00:02.10
Mike
Mm hmm.

01:00:02.37
Bill
at the end, could it be fixed? Yes.

01:00:05.44
Mike
Mm hmm.

01:00:05.02
Bill
you know Or if somebody else was on here and they unloaded something and then had ah you know had a... again the second guess at the end i mean could we fix it yes you know um But...

01:00:16.53
Bill
I mean, we're not We're not just. vomiting words out of our mouths.

01:00:20.43
Mike
Yeah, yeah, exactly.

01:00:20.66
Bill
You know, I...

01:00:21.42
Mike
Anymore.

01:00:22.53
Bill
Yeah.

01:00:22.61
Mike
Right.

01:00:23.34
Bill
and Anymore. Anymore.

01:00:24.69
Mike
Exactly. Yeah. You know, part of of the people that we have become, we are sort of self-editing, whether we're on here or in real life. I mean, there's plenty of times where I would love to say something to someone.

01:00:33.41
Bill
Right.

01:00:37.39
Mike
But...

01:00:38.99
David
Yeah.

01:00:39.09
Bill
Right? yeah

01:00:39.61
Mike
But again, right, you know, running it through the absolutes, is it helpful? is Is it truthful? Is it is it loving?

01:00:45.93
David
Kind.

01:00:46.29
Mike
is it Is it... Right. Is it unselfish? Right. Is it pure? And if it doesn't meet that criteria, no matter how much I want to say that to them.

01:00:56.24
Mike
I won't because it. Turns out that my thoughts are wrong and it would be the wrong thing to do to say that to him, no matter how much I want to do it.

01:01:06.72
Mike
So.

01:01:07.00
Bill
Right.

01:01:07.35
Mike
Right, exactly. You know, um ah yeah again, you know, my life is unmanageable. Yes, I do not manage my own life. um These principles manage my life, and it it works out fairly well for me these days.

01:01:21.02
Mike
But, yeah, you know, right.

01:01:21.14
Bill
Right.

01:01:22.24
Mike
we we

01:01:22.81
David
It takes a lot of practice.

01:01:24.24
Mike
Yeah, you know I mean, we're...

01:01:24.59
Bill
Oh yeah, yeah.

01:01:26.56
Mike
Bill's talking earlier, you guys were talking earlier, and it made me think of, you know, when you said going to meetings and stuff. Yeah, it's real easy to be a good person between the, you know, the the serenity prayer and the Our Father.

01:01:37.82
Mike
What's a bitch is being a good person between the Our Father and the serenity prayer.

01:01:41.79
Bill
Right.

01:01:42.47
Mike
Yeah. right you know one yeah the other 23 hours a day what are you doing

01:01:43.41
David
Good point.

01:01:46.32
Bill
Heh heh. Right.

01:01:47.21
Mike
You just need to sit in that church basement and go, look at me, I'm wonderful. No, the other 23 hours when you're out in the world, be fucking wonderful.

01:01:55.75
David
Yeah.

01:01:55.71
Mike
and And, you know, if you happen to look at me cool, but I don't care if you're looking at me or not, I'm still going to try to be the best person I can be.

01:02:03.35
Bill
Right.

01:02:05.13
David
Absolutely.

01:02:05.30
Bill
Yeah. So i get I get kind of a societal question. It made me think of that. I was going to bring it up, and I don't think I wrote it down, but maybe this is a good question for all of us. So you want to join in on a panel discussion here for a minute, David?

01:02:16.15
David
Sure.

01:02:16.80
Mike
Mhm.

01:02:16.89
Bill
Okay. So um I don't think, well, let me take this back. I think that people have made this thing. um probably made this thing a political issue, but I just don't think it is. So everyone, I'm sure, have heard of Flock. cameras.

01:02:30.04
Bill
Okay, so in and i'll I'll ask you guys your opinion of that in in a minute. but um

01:02:35.20
David
What type of cameras?

01:02:35.28
Bill
I mean, if anyone else... Flock, F-L-O-C-K.

01:02:39.66
David
Are those the ones that watch birds?

01:02:39.53
Mike
Yeah, you know that

01:02:39.71
Bill
You know what? and No.

01:02:41.82
Mike
Yeah.

01:02:43.01
Bill
yeah You know what's funny?

01:02:44.35
Mike
Sheep.

01:02:45.33
Bill
is that the first The first time I saw that, I'm like, what the fuck are they? So they're they're cameras that they're putting up. um It's a company. the The company name is Flock, I think.

01:02:53.29
Mike
Mm hmm. Yeah I believe so.

01:02:53.34
Bill
It's the name of the company. And they've they've got these contracts with all these cities. So you'll be around ah any area. neighborhoods suburban neighborhoods urban neighborhoods cities whatever and they're all of these everyone's got cameras to begin with but then they're all of these regular cameras that are all hooked up into this network and the key behind it was to try to make these areas safer

01:03:09.96
Mike
Mm hmm.

01:03:13.55
Mike
Right.

01:03:13.59
Bill
You know, to make sure that, you know, these things, these high traffic areas um have cameras on them so that in the dedicated cameras, so that if shit goes bad. And then, you know, the cops, you know, whatever can can see what's what. And um for my my understanding is, is that there's been in these areas that they're that.

01:03:32.65
Bill
Have they been used properly? I'll say that there have been arrests.

01:03:34.71
Mike
Mm-mm.

01:03:36.58
Bill
Now, I've also heard the cops are using them.

01:03:39.72
Mike
Mm hmm.

01:03:39.40
Bill
You get some shady ass cops that are using them to, because you could put in, you could put like a license plate or a description or a picture in these cameras, in this camera system, and you could actually literally stalk people through them.

01:03:45.44
Mike
Right.

01:03:51.62
Mike
Mm-hmm.

01:03:51.72
Bill
Okay. If you have the access. So that's what these cops are doing.

01:03:54.68
Mike
Meow.

01:03:54.57
Bill
But you know what? Fucking cops and officials and in computer guys and whatever. Everyone's doing it anyhow. It's just that it's a new piece of technology to do it. But there was an area, now I can't remember where it was. I think it was in... um God, it might have actually been an area in Wisconsin.

01:04:08.40
Bill
I could be wrong about that. But anyhow, so there there was just some lawsuit where these cameras i got taken out of this this area recently and crime went up. And I was just like, so my my question for the panel and and you you guys, I'd love to hear your opinions on them.

01:04:16.68
Mike
Mm hmm.

01:04:23.03
Bill
But my question is, is that. If you... let's say any one of the three of us, if you're out there not doing wrong, do you give a flying fuck if you're being recorded by a flock camera, a ring camera, a store camera, doesn't matter.

01:04:30.81
Mike
Right.

01:04:37.10
Mike
Mm hmm.

01:04:38.75
Bill
David.

01:04:38.77
Mike
Yeah.

01:04:40.94
David
Me first? Okay.

01:04:41.71
Bill
Yeah. Go ahead.

01:04:42.81
David
I don't give a shit. Plain and simple. i really If I'm not doing anything wrong, I give i am not that interesting to watch.

01:04:46.69
Mike
Right. Right.

01:04:51.04
Mike
yeah Thank you.

01:04:51.36
Bill
Right?

01:04:51.61
David
So, have at it.

01:04:52.39
Bill
Right.

01:04:52.68
Mike
right yeah you know i mean don't put it in my bedroom but um Yeah.

01:04:53.28
Bill
Right.

01:04:57.10
David
Yeah.

01:04:57.22
Bill
Well... Yeah.

01:04:58.25
Mike
Well, I mean...

01:04:58.40
Bill
Yeah.

01:04:58.91
David
I mean, I don't see what I do.

01:04:58.90
Mike
I mean, I got nothing to hide, but, you know.

01:05:01.16
Bill
Yeah.

01:05:01.41
Mike
kind of Kind of proud, actually. But anyway, I digress. um But no, yeah, exactly.

01:05:07.45
Bill
hey

01:05:07.95
David
oh

01:05:08.91
Mike
Look, I mean, yes, there's been cameras. There are cameras everywhere. You know, I mean. Shit. 40 years ago, you walked into a 7-Eleven, there was a little video camera up there yeah recording you.

01:05:21.03
Mike
It's been going on for a very long time.

01:05:21.31
Bill
Mm hmm.

01:05:23.33
Mike
um Yeah, and if you're not doing anything wrong, you have nothing to hide which today I don't I don't care I just really don't.

01:05:31.95
Bill
Right.

01:05:33.52
Mike
Yeah. You know, I mean, were there times in my life where I cared?

01:05:34.72
Bill
I just.

01:05:34.98
David
It's... it's

01:05:36.68
Mike
Yeah, absolutely. Why?

01:05:37.69
Bill
ah

01:05:38.07
Mike
Because I was doing something wrong. I was doing something I shouldn't have been doing, you know?

01:05:40.68
David
Hmm.

01:05:43.02
Mike
um and And yeah, so I would have been very opposed to it.

01:05:43.65
David
Yeah.

01:05:46.14
Mike
But today, yeah.

01:05:47.28
David
What?

01:05:47.49
Mike
Like David said, I don't care.

01:05:47.99
David
i just find it I don't give a shit. um i just I think it's hilarious that people are getting upset over...

01:05:51.11
Mike
Yeah.

01:05:51.25
Bill
Right.

01:05:54.86
Mike
Mm hmm.

01:05:55.03
David
cameras out in public when everybody's carrying a camera on them every day.

01:05:57.87
Mike
Right.

01:05:58.96
Bill
Right.

01:05:58.92
Mike
Right.

01:05:59.17
David
And they're taking pictures. They're filming this.

01:06:00.92
Mike
Mm hmm.

01:06:01.08
David
They're filming that.

01:06:01.59
Mike
Mm-hmm

01:06:01.54
David
They're putting it on social media. You're already doing the camera's job.

01:06:05.53
Mike
Right.

01:06:06.12
Bill
Right.

01:06:06.30
David
Now it's just a camera overhead that's stationary. that you have no control over

01:06:09.33
Mike
Mm hmm. Mm hmm.

01:06:12.18
David
But you're probably putting shit out there that's more provocative and damning than that camera's ever going to see.

01:06:17.45
Bill
Right.

01:06:17.50
Mike
Yeah, absolutely

01:06:17.98
David
And you're getting upset over that?

01:06:19.62
Bill
And you know the the biggest the biggest thing, the I'm sure the probably the sales pitch with this with this whole group is you know because ah i'm just I'm under the impression that regardless of where I'm at these days, I'm i'm being filmed.

01:06:19.77
Mike
Yeah.

01:06:32.08
Bill
You know, and especially in like even take a ah neighborhood, you know, where where Kathy lives right now, Mike, you know.

01:06:32.28
Mike
Mm hmm.

01:06:38.59
Mike
Great.

01:06:38.92
Bill
I walk up and up and down the street. I walk to the left, up to the cul-de-sac and back. And however many houses I go by, I'm sure every one of the houses in this area has a ring camera.

01:06:48.40
David
Yeah.

01:06:48.03
Mike
Oh yeah. Absolutely.

01:06:49.21
Bill
so

01:06:49.21
Mike
It's hoity and toity.

01:06:49.80
David
It's hoity and toity.

01:06:51.48
Bill
Exactly. But i'm I'm just sure. So that's number one. And then, okay, go to the gas station, go to the grocery store. I mean, how many places do you think you are? 100 % convinced that when I'm on a trail,

01:07:03.68
Bill
I'm on, I'm probably on, I don't know how many trail camps because I'm sure in some of these areas, you know, in some of these national parks or state parks or whatever it is, I'm sure there's hidden trail camps places.

01:07:08.04
Mike
Mm hmm.

01:07:13.09
Bill
There has to be.

01:07:14.61
Mike
Right.

01:07:14.79
Bill
You know, so even even that or walking into a certain area, I'm never going to walk into one of these areas. Even if I got to take a piss, I kind of look around. I'm like, well, if I mean, if there's a camera, they're going to get me taking a piss. I'm out in the middle of fucking woods and I got to piss.

01:07:25.78
Bill
It is what it is.

01:07:26.10
Mike
Oh yeah. Right.

01:07:27.40
Bill
But I'm not walking up to somebody's car and pissing on it.

01:07:27.37
David
that's right

01:07:27.56
Mike
Oh!

01:07:30.04
Mike
Exactly. Yeah, yeah.

01:07:31.27
David
Anymore

01:07:31.22
Mike
i go ray i Right.

01:07:33.39
Bill
anymore. Yeah.

01:07:34.43
Mike
Well, I mean, I drive truck for a living, right?

01:07:34.76
Bill
Yeah.

01:07:35.81
Mike
You know, so yes, I have to go back and water tires occasionally. and um You know, i'm I'm at a distribution center or whatever, and there's cameras all over. I know there are. And I look, you know, I make sure that I'm not on a camera.

01:07:46.10
Bill
Right

01:07:49.49
Mike
just because again, I have nothing to hide and again, sort of proud, but I, but I, you know, I'm representing my company also.

01:07:54.69
Bill
hey

01:07:59.53
Mike
So I don't want to be, Hey, your driver was pissing in our yard.

01:08:00.18
David
so like know one

01:08:02.90
Mike
um Yeah.

01:08:03.02
Bill
Right

01:08:03.60
Mike
So, you know, so I make sure that I'm not in the sight line of a camera. um If I see one, I make sure I position myself behind the trailer where the camera can't see me.

01:08:13.26
Bill
Right.

01:08:13.75
Mike
Yeah.

01:08:14.17
Bill
Right. Yeah, it's just the like I said, the only thing that I can think of is the. you know Again, the the sales pitch, I'm sure, with this with this group, this flock group, is the fact that it's you know it's it's immediate, it's connected, but that's also that that's the good and the bad.

01:08:22.53
Mike
Mm hmm.

01:08:27.07
Bill
But it is what it is. you know It just fucking is what it is. And I just didn't – I don't understand the same thing. that there There's so many cameras everywhere, and you've made a good point. I mean, probably 50 years ago when they started putting – they're grainy, but there's been –

01:08:39.60
Mike
Yeah, right.

01:08:40.39
David
right

01:08:40.25
Bill
you know There's been cameras in these convenience stores and gas stations for you know for fucking ever.

01:08:44.13
Mike
Mm-hmm.

01:08:45.40
Bill
you know

01:08:45.69
Mike
Yep.

01:08:46.41
David
Yeah.

01:08:47.29
Bill
So I don't know. It just doesn't it doesn't make any any sense to me. but Because Mike and I were talking about that at one time when our mom was still alive. And this was, God, probably at least 10 years ago, if not more than that.

01:08:57.20
Mike
Mm hmm.

01:08:57.30
Bill
um She sent this text message to me, Mike, and our sister Kathy, this article about Google and Google Maps. And she's like, the article was all about that it's it's on in the background, these location services, and it's track it's tracking everywhere you go.

01:09:09.63
Mike
Uh-huh.

01:09:12.11
Bill
And her point was, he's like just so you guys know, you want to turn this off.

01:09:12.29
David
point was

01:09:15.31
Bill
You don't want to be tracked.

01:09:16.71
Mike
Yeah.

01:09:16.51
Bill
you know Basically telling us that the man is tracking us.

01:09:17.47
David
Okay.

01:09:19.91
Bill
And I'm like... And Mike... mike tracks back right over texted back right away he's like he goes i'm not hiding anything anymore and he goes he goes i don't care and and i texted back i'm like yeah i don't care either i said i said number one i know what's on because i i was able to find this parts place that that derrick and i that's my son that derrick and i went to like six months ago so i'm like it's actually helped me out quite a bit

01:09:26.36
Mike
Yep.

01:09:35.44
Mike
Mm hmm.

01:09:41.29
Bill
And she's just all freaked out that, you know, the location services knows where we're going. I'm like, well, fuck it. Then now these days I look at it like, well. At least you know where, if I disappear.

01:09:51.87
Mike
hu

01:09:52.86
David
mm-hmm

01:09:52.53
Bill
At least you know where I was last. Got someplace to fucking look.

01:09:54.58
Mike
Right. You're my phone was anyway.

01:09:57.20
Bill
Yeah, and now if my phone's on the top of a cliff and you look down and there's my body like, well, we found the fucker.

01:10:02.87
Mike
Yup.

01:10:03.86
Bill
Yeah. Oh, there there he is. thank thank god for Thank God for location services.

01:10:06.42
David
Oh.

01:10:08.68
Mike
Yes, and gravity.

01:10:09.56
Bill
Yeah, kick had gravity.

01:10:11.16
Mike
so

01:10:11.45
David
ouch

01:10:11.100
Bill
yeah Don't have to deal with his fucking ass anymore. He's at the bottom of a cliff now. but um So what are the what are the things that, I mean, these these days, David, um I mean, outside of writing and in journaling and that sort of thing, and I want to ask you a little bit more about journaling in a second, but so what do you what do you do differently than, um I don't know, that you did when you were when you were drinking? I mean, is your...

01:10:33.22
Bill
In what ways, I guess, is your life, I mean, I know it's better, but what do you do now for your hobbies and your fun and all that sort of stuff?

01:10:40.97
David
uh my biggest hobby is gotta to be spending time with my daughter

01:10:44.57
Bill
Right, yeah.

01:10:44.65
Mike
Right.

01:10:45.30
David
um And, you know, as a dad, of course, I'm going to say that.

01:10:48.29
Mike
Right.

01:10:48.59
David
Apart from that.

01:10:48.59
Bill
and Right.

01:10:50.45
David
apart from that I make a lot of these AI videos with photographs of my friends and my family.

01:10:53.68
Bill
Mm.

01:10:56.77
Bill
Sure.

01:10:57.21
David
you know just putting them in awkward situations Yeah.

01:10:59.33
Mike
He he he he he he he.

01:10:59.88
Bill
ah

01:11:00.92
David
Making them do stupid shit. um

01:11:02.72
Mike
Yeah.

01:11:02.92
Bill
Right?

01:11:04.30
David
And I've got a really good friend, one of the BHTs that I befriended at the halfway house.

01:11:08.69
Mike
Mm hmm.

01:11:09.04
David
His name is Keith. He won't mind if I say his name.

01:11:11.61
Mike
Right.

01:11:11.80
David
uh he's also i refer to him as ah as a timu builder Um,

01:11:16.39
Bill
ha

01:11:16.67
Mike
he

01:11:17.58
David
He's just he's hilarious. I love the guy. He will send me photos every once in a while. Hey, David, I need you to do this with this picture. ah So that's one of my hobbies. you know I spend time doing that.

01:11:26.01
Mike
Yeah.

01:11:26.00
Bill
Nice.

01:11:27.84
David
Nothing malicious, obviously. you know it's It's all good fun.

01:11:29.62
Mike
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:11:30.19
Bill
Right

01:11:31.20
David
and

01:11:31.34
Mike
Absolutely.

01:11:32.69
David
Everybody's photo that I use, you know, they... They know I'm using it for that.

01:11:35.76
Mike
Mm hmm.

01:11:35.88
David
And I always send it to them. I don't post it on social media. Um... The other thing I've found that I like doing is walking.

01:11:43.47
Mike
m

01:11:43.71
Bill
Right.

01:11:44.46
David
I never used to like to walk, but I found it. clears my head.

01:11:48.15
Bill
Right.

01:11:48.75
David
especially on a nice evening.

01:11:48.67
Mike
I'm gonna step back and let you guys talk for a minute.

01:11:49.93
David
and laughter

01:11:51.53
Mike
Hehehehe.

01:11:53.34
Bill
Yeah, that's that's one of my pastimes. But yeah, go ahead. Go ahead.

01:11:55.91
David
Yeah, no, just just...

01:11:56.05
Bill
Say it. Meh.

01:11:56.76
David
Taking a nice long, no destination in mind. Just walk.

01:12:00.83
Bill
Right.

01:12:01.44
David
and uh What else? Sports, obviously. I like watching sports. um And football season's back on. I'm like a... Piggin' shit.

01:12:11.24
Bill
Right.

01:12:11.41
Mike
Hey.

01:12:11.93
David
um And what else? I like to read. I've been reading of actually a few good books. Um, and I've been reading a lot of self-help books.

01:12:22.57
Bill
Nice.

01:12:23.16
David
You know, body keeps the score. Um... What's the other one? Who's talking? by chris hinton Amen. you know books that helped me process everything that I learned when I was in recovery and that I'm still learning about.

01:12:37.93
Bill
Right

01:12:37.67
Mike
he Sure.

01:12:39.81
David
Because, you know... I still have a therapist and I still go to therapy and I still do things like that, but I still need information. i still need

01:12:46.74
Mike
Yeah.

01:12:48.12
David
data.

01:12:49.21
Mike
Yeah.

01:12:49.44
David
from other sources to help me with that. um

01:12:51.76
Bill
Right.

01:12:52.94
David
but yeah it's you know right now my hobbies are very laid-back relaxing non-stressful.

01:12:56.91
Mike
Mm hmm.

01:13:00.15
David
Just... you know, ordinary ordinary type shit.

01:13:03.84
Bill
Right.

01:13:04.19
Mike
Cool. Yeah.

01:13:04.63
Bill
Well, yeah. And the the walking part of it, I mean, I started doing it a few years ago. um I mean, when when we first got to the Keating Center, neither one of us, well, Mike, you had a car relatively quickly, but...

01:13:15.58
Mike
Mm-hmm.

01:13:15.35
Bill
um I didn't have a car for probably the first... God, what was it, four or five months? Yeah, I think it was in September.

01:13:20.38
Mike
Yeah.

01:13:21.30
Bill
Yeah, September when I got Johnny's car. um I got a car from our cousin. It was, I ended up, well, I bought it from him, but. um Up until then, he was letting me use his bike. and i mean When we got that freedom to get out of the you know the sober living facility, um all of us were riding bikes around.

01:13:36.32
Bill
and i mean that was that was fucking wonderful.

01:13:36.74
Mike
Yep.

01:13:38.09
Bill
You know, I hadn't been on a bike in years and it was just, it was great. But then, yeah, a few years ago, I started, you know, when I was traveling a little bit. Going on hiking trails, and that's what I was telling Mike you know to begin with, and we talked about that recently, is just that I don't listen to music. I don't you know do anything out of the ordinary. i just I go on these trails, and I just walk, and it's just me. ah It's not that I haven't hiked with other people. I do, and I will.

01:14:04.00
Bill
but I love going by myself on a trail and just being, you know, and it's, ah it is, it's. um There's a destination because it's a trail, you know, but I'm just out there and I don't think about even if there's. really wacky shit going on in my life and some wildly things wild things that are pissing me off And it's, you just, you disappear.

01:14:22.91
Bill
All those things disappear for a minute, you know, while while you're out there.

01:14:25.32
David
Yeah.

01:14:26.44
Bill
And it is, it's ah it's, to me, it's therapeutic. You know, it's just to get out there and just do stuff like that.

01:14:29.72
David
Mm hmm.

01:14:32.02
Bill
Like you just said, relaxing and you know ah stuff like that, that's the whole point. And i don't I don't read books, but I listen to a lot of audio books. I listen to two or three different recovery podcasts.

01:14:45.05
Bill
And, you know, I like that. That keeps me connected to, you know, maybe some some other people's stories and things like that. But, you know, some of these audio books that I try to listen to. You know, a lot of times there's celebrities that have had some sort of addiction issue, but not necessarily, but just.

01:14:59.88
Bill
like you said, taking in information. But I just, I listen to it. I can't. Not that I can't. I just, it, it makes me, to the audio book.

01:15:13.32
David
All right. so So I have a question for you.

01:15:15.31
Bill
Uh huh.

01:15:16.04
David
I have a question for you.

01:15:17.12
Bill
Yep.

01:15:17.21
David
So you I've listened to your podcast. You guys, by the way, are hilarious. And I know that you love listening to audio books and celebrity audio books.

01:15:21.47
Bill
i Right. Right.

01:15:26.12
David
And the other there was an episode, recent episode. where you admitted to listening to Sylvester Stallone's.

01:15:31.87
Mike
Yeah.

01:15:33.02
Bill
yeah Yeah, it was the last episode. I'm i'm almost done with the...

01:15:34.81
David
Oh, when's the last episode?

01:15:36.05
Bill
Yep. I'm almost done with the book now.

01:15:36.63
David
Okay.

01:15:37.07
Bill
Cause yeah, Mike, Mike. Introduce yourself.

01:15:39.54
Mike
Blah blah blah.

01:15:40.44
David
Hmm. So...

01:15:41.58
Mike
Bleh.

01:15:43.26
David
ah So my question to you is...

01:15:43.60
Bill
Yeah.

01:15:45.64
David
Because you said you like it when they read the book themselves. Does he read that book?

01:15:49.67
Bill
Oh, yeah. Yep.

01:15:50.67
Mike
VEH

01:15:50.62
Bill
Yep.

01:15:51.47
David
and he's And you understand what he's saying.

01:15:53.92
Bill
100%.

01:15:53.90
Mike
He he he he he he he he

01:15:55.25
David
Okay.

01:15:55.13
Bill
One hundred percent. So it's it's a thing like like to I like Arnold Schwarzenegger. I've listened to him on a couple of different podcasts over the years. And if you listen to anything with Arnold, when he first obviously came to the country and I mean, he was I mean, you couldn't fucking.

01:16:11.44
Bill
you couldn't understand him

01:16:12.66
Mike
Mm hmm.

01:16:13.28
Bill
And, um,

01:16:14.21
Bill
I remember Sylvester Stallone, because he's he's to the point now in the book, and it's going to be wrapping up, I think, with the Rocky series, but they're talking about the first Rocky movie. And his point, way he played that character was on purpose, playing it somebody you know down and out, working for a goal, but you know not the brightest guy in the you know in the world. And I think that that that language in his speak in that movie was more was more exaggerated. But i don't I don't know. I mean, over the years, because I've watched Tulsa King, I've seen him obviously in other movies. um He's not, he's not on, what did we say?

01:16:47.45
Bill
What did we say? Audio or what? How did you explain that? Legible. Illegible.

01:16:51.65
Mike
Legible.

01:16:52.82
David
Hmm.

01:16:52.41
Mike
That's right.

01:16:52.79
Bill
Yeah, like vocally or whatever it was, legible.

01:16:54.71
Mike
Mm hmm.

01:16:55.62
Bill
um But, yeah, I mean, I can understand completely. But, but yeah, his his problem. and We talked about it. It was when he was born.

01:17:03.42
David
Yeah.

01:17:03.80
Bill
It was one of his nerves got crushed.

01:17:05.97
David
Yo.

01:17:05.76
Bill
And that's that. caused the whole fucking problem with that. And it's a, it's a slur is what it is. I called it a list, but it's actually a slur. But I'm almost done with the book and it's been, it's actually been really enjoyable listening to him.

01:17:16.57
David
No.

01:17:16.69
Bill
But yeah, I can't, I got by, by accident.

01:17:17.53
David
Good to know.

01:17:21.01
Bill
Anthony Hopkins. I got that book, but it's narrated by somebody else. And I'm like, fuck it. I didn't even listen to it. And then um Elton John was another one.

01:17:27.87
David
really

01:17:29.57
Bill
Cause I thought, I mean, he's been sober for fucking ever, but he had some, he had somebody else narrate the book. And I'm like, well, fuck me. i don't i don't want to I don't want to do that. i The book I just got, because they...

01:17:41.08
Bill
I haven't listened to it yet. I just got it tonight because I had a free credit for it. Norm MacDonald wrote a book back in 2016 or 17. And I just went out sitting down to dinner, Mike. I turned on Netflix, which I know you don't have, but I think Chris does.

01:17:50.97
Mike
who

01:17:53.60
Mike
Right.

01:17:54.51
Bill
There's a documentary. um that's out it must have just came out today for norm and i just started watching it um and i mean so far it's i mean i'm only i don't know 20

01:17:57.60
Mike
Mm hmm. Yeah.

01:18:00.69
David
Hmm.

01:18:03.87
Bill
five minutes into it, but they talked about his book and I looked it up. So now I got his book and the reviews on it apparently are saying that you you need to listen to his book because it's his voice and his, you know, his whole.

01:18:15.03
Bill
demeanor of reading this, of reading this story.

01:18:15.79
Mike
e

01:18:17.53
Bill
And that's what I like. So to answer your question specifically, yeah, Sylvester, yes, I can understand him. but It just adds something to the book. to hear the person because i just you get their inflection in it you know

01:18:29.87
Mike
Sure.

01:18:30.31
David
Yeah, no, I get it. i get it of me i I'd only be able to listen if it was Morgan Freeman.

01:18:36.18
Bill
Yeah.

01:18:36.21
Mike
Yeah.

01:18:37.37
Bill
Yeah, he'd be a he'd be another one. you know The other one just came out with a book.

01:18:39.49
David
He could read the phone book and I would just sit there.

01:18:42.30
Bill
Yeah.

01:18:42.65
Mike
Mm hmm.

01:18:42.88
Bill
Yeah.

01:18:43.08
David
Floating away.

01:18:44.60
Mike
Hehehehe.

01:18:44.56
Bill
Well, you know who's got who had a good, good I listened to Charlie Sheen's book and I just re-listened to it recently. His was another one. ah Charlie Sheen's voice and also ah Martin Sheen and and Emilio, all three of them had these unique voices that are kind of calming.

01:18:59.44
Bill
And ah you know the weird part, you wouldn't think you know Charlie Sheen has a calming voice, but when you listen to him for a while, you know when he's not fucking high.

01:19:03.35
Mike
true

01:19:06.70
Bill
You know, um he is.

01:19:07.24
Mike
Right.

01:19:08.63
Bill
He's got a very even, just a very even voice, very easy to listen to. Good story, too. I like listening to him more so. Matthew Perry, I'm telling you, if anyone, after after listening to his book the second time, and there's supposed to be another documentary coming out with him, so I'm interested to see where that comes, what angle that comes from.

01:19:25.25
Bill
but When I listen to Matthew Perry again and then Charlie Sheen right afterwards, and again, this would be a weird statement knowing the two of them. But Charlie Sheen, I believe him.

01:19:35.39
Bill
Matthew Perry, I didn't, and you know obviously now I...

01:19:36.93
Mike
Mm hmm.

01:19:38.93
Bill
you can see why he's fucking dead you know but um I mean, Charlie Sheen actually was sincere.

01:19:40.80
Mike
right

01:19:44.62
Bill
Matthew Perry through that entire book. That's why I wanted to listen to it a second time, knowing that obviously how he ended up dying and then having that little bit of hindsight.

01:19:50.47
David
Hmm.

01:19:51.89
Bill
I'm like, oh, fuck. I mean, you you could tell all the way through the book that he just wasn't he wasn't serious about. anything.

01:19:58.32
Mike
Yeah. As Marty used to say, you can't bullshit a bullshitter.

01:20:01.92
Bill
Yeah, and in when

01:20:02.13
David
That's true.

01:20:02.36
Mike
And we are world-class bullshitters, so you cannot bullshit us.

01:20:06.89
David
No.

01:20:06.80
Bill
Well, and we even when when I first listened to it, Mike and I were talking about it during that timeframe, David, and I'm like, something seems off and I couldn't pinpoint it, you know, but I was telling him some of the things he's just, he's like, it wasn't taking responsibility, but then it was just crystal fucking clear the second time that he just didn't take responsibility for.

01:20:14.24
Mike
Mm-hmm.

01:20:21.10
Mike
Mm hmm.

01:20:24.15
Bill
anything.

01:20:25.04
Mike
Yep.

01:20:25.11
Bill
Not a thing.

01:20:27.27
David
Yeah, no, it's that's that's a shame.

01:20:29.100
Mike
Mm-hmm

01:20:30.21
David
That's a shame.

01:20:31.06
Bill
It is because, I mean, he's got i mean he had he had the – again, not that it matters. I mean, not that the money even matters, but just in a general sense as a human being, he had the world by the fucking balls. I mean, granted, he had he was a multimillionaire, but even take that out of it, um he was a good human being for for the a timeframe.

01:20:47.78
Mike
Right.

01:20:48.08
Bill
And he had ah he had a really –

01:20:47.99
David
Yeah.

01:20:48.74
Mike
Most of us are.

01:20:50.06
Bill
Yeah, exactly. You know, and just literally had the head the world by the balls and just. You know, he didn't give a fuck about anything. Took no responsibility. Just zero, you know?

01:20:57.44
Mike
Yeah. Right. Well, I mean, yeah, right again, take the money out of it. He was given. the solution, and he didn't take it.

01:21:05.36
Bill
Right. Exactly.

01:21:08.06
David
Well, you can't force someone.

01:21:07.99
Bill
Exactly.

01:21:09.01
David
one i mean They're not gonna do it until they're ready.

01:21:09.67
Mike
No, of course not. Yep.

01:21:11.65
Bill
Right.

01:21:12.59
Mike
Yeah, and unfortunately, some of us never get ready.

01:21:15.91
Bill
Yes, yes.

01:21:16.03
David
Yeah.

01:21:15.78
Mike
Thankfully, these three guys sitting here did.

01:21:18.44
Bill
Exactly.

01:21:19.99
David
Yes.

01:21:21.08
Bill
So did you, um did you have, and speaking of that, David, did you have times over the years that I know you said you really didn't, I guess, start to hit it really, really hard until your thirties, but did you ever have the mindset?

01:21:21.44
David
Yes.

01:21:32.06
Bill
before the time that... that you like the second time that you really committed to it. Did you ever have that mindset that you should have taken you know steps to do something different any time prior?

01:21:42.13
David
No.

01:21:43.10
Mike
Okay.

01:21:43.41
David
No, i didn't realize I didn't realize that I had an addiction.

01:21:43.59
Mike
Hehehehe.

01:21:43.64
Bill
Yeah, I didn't either.

01:21:47.18
Bill
Right.

01:21:47.36
David
And and the thing is, before it was before alcohol, it was other aspects of my life.

01:21:47.19
Mike
Right.

01:21:52.81
David
It was work. I became a workaholic.

01:21:55.10
Bill
Right.

01:21:55.62
David
uh if i wasn't drinking and if i wasn't working i was screwing everything that wasn't nailed down

01:22:00.44
Mike
Mm-hmm.

01:22:01.48
David
Um, you know if it wasn't that you know it was the gym

01:22:03.35
Bill
um

01:22:06.00
David
Um, you know i would find something to pour everything into

01:22:05.84
Mike
Right.

01:22:10.10
Mike
Mm hmm.

01:22:10.46
Bill
Right.

01:22:10.91
David
And... That's what distracted me for so long from drinking.

01:22:15.13
Mike
Right.

01:22:15.30
David
But then when I started drinking, that's where all my attention went

01:22:18.24
Mike
Yeah, right

01:22:18.86
David
And um I always displayed addictive behavior.

01:22:19.78
Mike
Yeah, we

01:22:21.30
David
I just never understood that that's what it was.

01:22:23.26
Mike
Yeah, right. We'll find something to obsess over.

01:22:26.20
Bill
Yeah.

01:22:26.15
David
Yeah.

01:22:26.11
Mike
Well, we used to. Right. Again, yeah, that's kind of the thing. I mean... We've talked about it on here. I don't obsess over anything anymore, including recovery.

01:22:36.91
Mike
Right. You know, balance, man. It's all about finding that balance. And it's it's the beautiful thing. I don't obsess on. anything anymore and it's just so wonderful and freeing that i that

01:22:47.62
David
You're gonna have to teach me how you do that.

01:22:48.86
Mike
man Again.

01:22:51.02
Bill
Hehehe.

01:22:52.06
Mike
Walking and being in the woods, man, being in the woods, you just keep walking out and you will eventually get there. I mean, trust me, it didn't. It didn't happen.

01:23:03.68
Mike
and six years maybe started like, you know, I kind of got to the point where nothing, yeah, because you no early recovery, yeah, you obsess on recovery, which you kind of have to do.

01:23:13.83
David
Yeah.

01:23:15.26
Mike
because that's, you know. ah Like you talked about, we're obsessive people and that's all we do is obsess on something. And so we, we just.

01:23:24.54
Mike
transfer it over to recovery, which is good because we need to do that. But there comes a point where you you start going, wait a minute, I don't even have to obsess on this. I don't have to obsess on anything. I can i can take it all in. i can I can experience everything, not just one little aspect of life. I can i can take it all in, live it all. it it gets Fucking great, man. Just keep doing what you're doing because you'll get there.

01:23:51.60
Bill
Right.

01:23:52.26
David
Yeah.

01:23:52.97
Mike
Yeah.

01:23:53.33
David
the hardest The hardest thing I've i've dealt with. And there's a lot of hard things to deal with in recovery, especially in early recovery because you're still getting used to it.

01:23:58.16
Mike
Mm hmm. Yeah, absolutely.

01:24:01.71
David
but the one thing that i'm still having trouble with and and i haven't been able to figure out a way to deal with it. is Giving myself grace

01:24:10.92
Mike
Mm.

01:24:11.15
Bill
Yeah.

01:24:11.78
Mike
Mm hmm.

01:24:11.63
David
Forgiving myself.

01:24:11.77
Bill
Right.

01:24:12.99
Mike
Right.

01:24:13.67
David
you know That's the part that I'm still having the hardest time dealing with.

01:24:17.33
Mike
Mm hmm.

01:24:18.04
David
Um, Which is, you know... I know it's going to take practice. It takes time. I have to.

01:24:22.60
Mike
It does.

01:24:23.56
David
i have to keep forgiving myself until i start believing it it's just Man, it fucking sucks.

01:24:23.45
Mike
It does.

01:24:26.79
Mike
Right. Yeah, absolutely. And... It does. And, you know, I mean, yes, the part of it, again. It comes down to the not obsessing on and and anything. but um Yes, we're taking responsibility. We are realizing. the kind of people that we were um But you get to the point where...

01:24:46.92
Mike
you get past that and you go yes i was a i was an awful human being i did awful things but part of it was the disease part of it was i didn't have a choice like i didn't have a choice when it came to drinking and using drugs i also didn't have a choice of doing the bad things i did because i didn't have that choice i had to do those bad things to feed my addiction you know, they're part and parcel.

01:25:12.24
David
parcel they're they're together

01:25:12.12
Mike
They're they're together. They're intertwined.

01:25:14.43
David
Hmm.

01:25:14.40
Mike
and And yes, we have to be bad people to be to support the addiction. We have to be bad so that we can get loaded to forgive ourselves for being bad.

01:25:23.82
David
Forgive ourselves. so Yeah, dude.

01:25:25.37
Mike
And then, right, that that whole vicious circle.

01:25:26.78
David
right

01:25:27.46
Bill
Right.

01:25:27.98
David
It was a circle.

01:25:28.85
Mike
And you get to the point where you...

01:25:29.08
David
and you get to the point where

01:25:30.86
Mike
you you're not doing the bad things and You are changed.

01:25:32.46
David
You're not doing the bad. or change.

01:25:35.55
Mike
And again, it comes after a few years of going, you know what? It's been four years since I... did A, B, and C to anybody.

01:25:46.65
Mike
Right. and I haven't done those bad things.

01:25:47.51
David
Hmm.

01:25:49.55
Mike
Maybe. i really not a bad person maybe that isn't really the true me And then you go, well, yeah, that is the true me. I am an alcoholic and a drug addict, and and that's what I do.

01:25:57.96
David
I am an alcoholic and a drug addict.

01:26:02.12
Mike
What? I make the choice every day to do these other things that keep me from doing those bad things. And that makes me a better person. And then you get to the point where you go.

01:26:14.00
Mike
well shit i had to go and be all those bad things so that when i walk up to the new guy and go Yeah, I'm just as bad as you are.

01:26:14.69
David
shit and to go

01:26:23.11
Mike
And they look at you and they go, no, you're not. I do. And you go, yeah, I am, man. I'm just as bad as you. And. I found the solution and you're right. I'm not that way today, but it's still in me, man.

01:26:35.40
Mike
and but But if you do A, B, and C, you don't have to be that person anymore.

01:26:36.17
David
Oh yeah.

01:26:40.84
Mike
And then. There you go.

01:26:41.74
David
That's true.

01:26:42.07
Mike
you get in. You give them hope and then. Then you do that a few times and you go, shit, I helped somebody else. I am worthwhile. It'll get there, man.

01:26:51.72
David
You'll get there, man.

01:26:52.19
Mike
it it takes you But it takes time.

01:26:52.84
Bill
Right.

01:26:53.46
David
but it takes time. Yeah.

01:26:54.53
Mike
It's walking out of the woods, man.

01:26:57.33
Bill
Well, and it's all too, it's this so it's this whole living amends too.

01:26:57.38
David
Again with the woods.

01:27:00.36
Mike
Mm-hmm

01:27:00.09
Bill
I mean, you're you're making an amends to yourself, I mean, along with other people, that the longer that you continue to do, if nothing else, just keep doing the keep doing the next right thing on a daily basis, that in and of itself that and of itself will give you grace without...

01:27:04.11
Mike
Yep.

01:27:11.22
David
Yeah.

01:27:12.25
Mike
Yep.

01:27:14.54
Bill
without any other questions, but everything that Mike said, 100%, because you start to, we, we talk about that all the time on here.

01:27:16.15
Mike
Mm-hmm.

01:27:22.00
Bill
You know, there's all these things that it's really hard to every once in a while, have that, had that feeling. And something comes up and this memory comes up and you're like, oh, fuck, man, I remember when I did that.

01:27:30.36
Mike
Hmm. Mm hmm.

01:27:32.57
Bill
And you feel bad for a second, but you're like, you know what? But that was that was 20 years ago.

01:27:37.94
Mike
Right.

01:27:38.38
Bill
you know Or that was 18 years ago. That was 16 years and seven months ago. And i'm I've been sober for 16 years and in six months, you know, the the month before I got sober is not the fucking guy I am today.

01:27:47.75
David
Yo.

01:27:49.87
Mike
Mmm.

01:27:51.48
Bill
You know, it's just not, you know, and, but it took me.

01:27:51.75
Mike
Absolutely not.

01:27:56.07
Bill
a number of years to to get to this point. So the the thing that is, is that I, it's really easy to fall back into, I mean, we're human beings, you know, and I talk about it all the time.

01:28:04.85
Mike
Mm hmm.

01:28:06.44
Bill
I live in, in a depressed state that I say it all the time.

01:28:09.72
Mike
Mm-hmm.

01:28:10.32
Bill
I'm not a, I'm not a, I'm not in clinical depression or anything like that, but that's, I figured out. probably on here a few years ago. that my my default is is down all the time. So I got to work to kind of keep my attitude up. So it's easy for me to just every once in a while i be like.

01:28:26.54
Bill
fuck this i don't even know why i'm feeling this way but i'm in a fucking bad mood you know I don't know why.

01:28:30.23
David
Yeah.

01:28:31.44
Bill
You know, but then I'm like, what the fuck is wrong with you, I mean, no, everything's not perfect in my life, but am I this, this, and this?

01:28:34.71
Mike
see

01:28:39.86
Bill
No. So maybe I just go do something nice. But yeah, the biggest thing is once you realize that, like Mike said, you can actually help people and use all this all this fucking garbage.

01:28:46.92
Mike
mm-hmm

01:28:50.04
Bill
we got a whole truckload full and you're like come here i'll show you everything i did come here

01:28:54.81
David
Oh yeah.

01:28:55.01
Bill
You know, and i and um' um I'm not that guy today, you know, so it'll it'll happen. it Like Mike said, it'll 100 % happen. Just keep keep doing what you're doing.

01:29:01.67
Mike
Well...

01:29:02.02
David
Yeah.

01:29:03.20
Bill
You know, if you're not fucking people up today, then you're you one step away, one step further away every single day from the way that that was.

01:29:10.70
David
That's true.

01:29:12.78
Mike
Mm-hmm.

01:29:12.96
Bill
Yeah. So. um Obviously, anything um you know kind of ah you know getting to the point of, you know of course, wrapping up here. um What, if anything, did did we miss? um What do you want to leave with people? um Once again, your website will be down in in the, obviously. The podcast notes and the show notes down in here, we'll mention that again. But you want to mention your books again, mention your website, anything else you want to leave people with, David, before we wrap up?

01:29:39.74
David
Uh... The only thing I want to leave people with is, don't give up hope. As long as you're still drawing breath, you can keep trying.

01:29:43.16
Mike
mm-hmm

01:29:46.64
David
And listen to this podcast because you guys are...

01:29:49.49
Mike
Hey.

01:29:49.96
David
Freaking amazing. You won the Sands Bar Award for Best Podcast of the Year for 2025.

01:29:55.44
Mike
We did.

01:29:56.33
Bill
yeah Yeah, we don't we still don't know why but we did we did

01:29:56.57
David
So.

01:30:01.31
Bill
In 2026, not 25.

01:30:02.72
David
Oh, 2026, sorry. Sorry, sorry.

01:30:04.03
Mike
Yeah.

01:30:04.19
Bill
Yeah, somebody somebody else went in.

01:30:04.94
Mike
We sucked last year.

01:30:06.40
David
Yeah.

01:30:06.37
Bill
Yeah, so last last year we weren't we weren't worthy. But see, there's a good example. Just keep just keep going and and you're going to, you know, in in some way.

01:30:11.82
David
and Yeah.

01:30:13.43
Bill
you know, and

01:30:13.60
David
Somebody will give you something shiny.

01:30:15.14
Bill
Yes. Yeah, exactly.

01:30:16.29
Mike
Mm hmm.

01:30:16.07
Bill
Exactly. Whether you deserve it or not, you're going to get something shiny sooner or later.

01:30:18.25
Mike
He he he he he he he he.

01:30:20.01
David
yeah no i actually do recommend your podcast you guys are You're you're funny and it makes you want to listen.

01:30:22.96
Bill
Appreciate it. Yeah, we appreciate it. Well good.

01:30:26.68
Mike
Cool.

01:30:27.24
Bill
Good.

01:30:27.40
David
you know so

01:30:28.50
Bill
Yeah, and you know the

01:30:28.51
David
kudos That's what I want to leave people with. Keep listening.

01:30:31.00
Bill
Well, and that's the thing too, just that a real quick thing is the I, you talk about obsessing. I mean, to when we first started this thing, we both didn't know what we were doing. Clearly still don't, you know, for the most part. We just got things down to a rhythm where it's... where i'm we both of us are proud of the product that we put out but um you know whatever it is it just it is what it is but To begin with, you know you start to get tied into, oh, there's podcast numbers, there's this, there's that, blah, blah, blah.

01:30:56.03
David
Hmm.

01:30:56.02
Bill
And I still keep an eye on. our numbers to a certain extent but but i look at it more today as like what the fuck am i going to do about it you know i mean instagram's a fucking joke i i play around with shit on there all the time and i have more fun with it than anything else trying to figure out what post gets more looks and more views and more eyeballs on it but it still doesn't make a goddamn bit of difference you know times a year or sometimes affected with this we got this huge goddamn jump like seven months ago with this

01:31:03.53
David
Yeah.

01:31:21.84
Bill
Out of the fucking blue, it was from, what was it, Mike China?

01:31:25.50
Mike
Hmm.

01:31:26.16
Bill
Indonesia, Taiwan.

01:31:27.95
David
Really?

01:31:28.89
Bill
Oh yeah. And we, the only thing that we could figure, cause I, you talk about using chat GBT. I threw it up in there. I'm like, what the fuck? I said, make some sense out of all these numbers. They're like, give me this report, this report, this report. So I just shot all this stuff up.

01:31:39.98
David
ah

01:31:41.37
Bill
They're like, well, clearly what happened is Spotify. had to have just said, well, whatever the thing is, we were getting some play. And I think it was during the time when we were trying to blow up this whole voting thing for the award.

01:31:55.30
David
Hmm.

01:31:54.71
Bill
Was that that?

01:31:55.05
Mike
he Yeah.

01:31:55.39
Bill
Yeah, that was, I think what it was, Mike, you know, so. Somehow, someway, we were getting a lot of play, you know just in general. I think a lot more eyeballs on us than normal. so Somehow, we got picked. and we got They must have just focused. us in an area because what our normal is You know, United States, I think Canada's in there, maybe UK as far as the top three, but but the U .S. is usually probably 88 % of our listener base.

01:32:20.43
Bill
sporadic down through.

01:32:22.11
David
Right.

01:32:22.41
Bill
And it flipped around where it was like, whatever it was, it was like 20%, you know, came from China and then a couple other places. Weird. You know, Vietnam, that's the other one it was, Vietnam.

01:32:31.45
David
Wow.

01:32:32.38
Bill
And we're like, what the fuck?

01:32:32.78
David
like

01:32:33.95
Bill
So but it it was like it went from. I don't know, like in ah in a month's time, 1 ,000 or 2 ,000 plays to literally like... 8000 or something like that. you know

01:32:44.08
David
o

01:32:44.92
Bill
So it just they they force fetish to an area just to test it out. And then, you know, it's just gone back to normal.

01:32:50.43
Mike
Mm-hmm

01:32:50.83
David
Awesome.

01:32:51.61
Bill
you know it's like well it okay yeah it was awesome but it's just kind of like okay so where did that come you know we got to fucking reach around for a month and then they just they just fucking walked away like well what the fuck now Just buy me dinner or say you love me or something. I mean, Jesus Christ.

01:33:07.12
David
Oh, geez.

01:33:07.15
Bill
But yeah, I don't know. it It just, it all is what it is. But bottom line is obviously we appreciate you. We appreciate you or anyone else that that tries to promote this thing.

01:33:11.95
Mike
Mm-hmm.

01:33:15.47
Bill
so So that's it. Nothing else. Website will be down in the notes. Books are down, obviously, on the website. Anything else for you, David?

01:33:23.94
David
Ugh. No, no, man. Spill. been a gas It's going to blast.

01:33:26.98
Bill
Okay.

01:33:28.05
David
Oh, wait, I got one more question.

01:33:28.07
Bill
Okay. Sure.

01:33:30.99
David
Who's the one with the beard?

01:33:32.98
Mike
Abbey me.

01:33:33.04
Bill
That's Mike.

01:33:34.09
David
Ah, okay. i was like yeah he's got a beard voice

01:33:35.47
Bill
Yeah.

01:33:37.62
Bill
ah

01:33:38.94
David
yeah Yeah. He's got the beard voice.

01:33:40.69
Mike
Right, yes.

01:33:41.79
David
Yeah.

01:33:41.44
Bill
Yeah.

01:33:42.21
Mike
It's all in the hair and my chinny chin chin.

01:33:42.36
Bill
He doesn't... we We haven't done that in a while. It was funny. we we Every once in a while over the timeframe, we've had people either message us or whatever. It's like, which one? Because I'm the one that I do all the the social media shit on Instagram.

01:33:56.47
Bill
so and i was messaging with somebody one time and i've a few times it's happened so which one are you

01:34:02.20
Mike
Hehehehehe.

01:34:03.51
Bill
And I mean, cause you know, they can't, they can't hear the voice or anything like that. And then, yeah, we used to do that every, every handful of months.

01:34:06.55
David
Yeah.

01:34:09.24
Bill
We'd like, okay, I'm Bill. And they'd be like, I'm Mike.

01:34:13.20
Mike
Right.

01:34:13.60
David
Nice.

01:34:14.01
Bill
But yeah, I guess we haven't done that in a while. So yeah, great question. So, all right, but it's ah it's now Mike's turn.

01:34:16.63
Mike
shi

01:34:18.98
Bill
So Mike.

01:34:20.26
David
My favorite part.

01:34:21.29
Bill
Yeah.

01:34:21.25
Mike
Well, thank you, everyone, for listening to yet another episode of Sober Not Mature. Thank you, David, for coming on and sharing your story with us. And we totally appreciate it. Go out and buy his damn book.

01:34:34.65
Mike
And, uh, as always be kind to each other, be good to each other, go out and do something nice for somebody else this week. And don't tell anybody you did it. Now, from the bottom of my heart to the depths of my soul, from the beginning of time until the ends of the earth, always.

01:34:46.55
David
depth the beginning of time

01:34:51.43
Mike
and eternally.

01:34:52.16
David
and eternally

01:34:53.85
Mike
Fuck you. Now it's time kids. It's time for you to fuck off then keep fucking off Keep fucking off till you get to a gate with a sign on it saying, you cannot fuck off past here.

01:35:07.42
Mike
Climb over that gate.

01:35:07.89
David
um over that

01:35:09.07
Mike
Dream the impossible dream and keep fucking off forever.

01:35:09.52
David
please three

01:35:14.36
Bill
Yeah. We've had a couple of people say that that's their favorite part. and It's Mike's favorite part too.

01:35:18.55
David
It is. It's my favorite part.

01:35:19.37
Bill
Yeah.

01:35:18.83
Mike
that's It is.

01:35:19.86
David
I love it.

01:35:20.50
Mike
It's my favorite part because it means we're done.

01:35:20.78
Bill
Yeah, well, Mike.

01:35:22.68
David
Yeah.

01:35:22.80
Bill
I was just going to say, yeah, that's how Mike knows we're done. So, um David, thank you again. Obviously, we both appreciate you ah you know putting up with the technology issue and stuff like that. And don't don't hang up now.

01:35:33.52
Bill
Hang out here for a minute when we're done recording and we'll wrap up with you.

01:35:34.60
David
Yeah. Absolutely.

01:35:36.68
Bill
But, Mike, I love you, brother.

01:35:38.40
Mike
I love you too.

01:35:39.63
Bill
I know we'll talk soon.

01:35:40.71
Mike
We shall.

01:35:42.32
Bill
Bye, everyone.

01:35:43.51
Mike
Bye.