SoberNotMature - Episode 224 (Story Time With Uncle Tito)

00:00:01.82
Bill
All right, everyone. Welcome once again to another episode of Sober, Not Mature. And yes, we have a guest and he's a badass.

00:00:11.23
Mike
Mmm.

00:00:11.70
Bill
He's a fucking ex-pilot of all things. so I can ask you real quick, Anthony, did you hear any of the clips where I put the the intro Top Gun music in there?

00:00:21.11
Anthony Dyer
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I saw a couple of those.

00:00:22.22
Bill
Yeah.

00:00:22.33
Mike
e

00:00:22.83
Anthony Dyer
And ah and and just to start right now, so I was a what used to be called aerial gunner. And what they did was, ah you know, 2013, they combined the the flight engineer, loadmaster, and aerial gunner.

00:00:33.13
Anthony Dyer
For example, in my experience on the ACM-30, the gunship, you know, and they call it special missions aviators now. So just a fancy way of saying a guy with a lot of different hats on the aircraft, you know.

00:00:42.07
Bill
Okay, well well, that's cool.

00:00:42.09
Mike
Gotcha.

00:00:43.15
Bill
And, you know, what we we want to hear all about that shit. But, yeah, the the one thing I wasn't going to do, I wasn't i wasn't going to throw a Kenny Loggins, you know, Danger Zone song or anything like that into the clips.

00:00:51.06
Anthony Dyer
Yeah, yeah.

00:00:52.24
Mike
Hmm.

00:00:52.51
Bill
But I thought that beginning to the Top Gun movies, that's kind of cool, you know. So I did that to a couple of them. But um we'll let, obviously, we'll get into Anthony's story and stuff like that. But, Anthony, do us a favor first.

00:01:02.80
Bill
Just take a minute or two and just give us ah a really brief introduction, who you are, where you're at right now. Just a very brief introduction, then we'll get into everything, okay?

00:01:11.58
Anthony Dyer
Yeah, I appreciate you guys having me, man. It's going to be a fun one. So, ah yeah, i grew up in a small town ah called ah Silva, North Carolina, you know, there deep in Appalachia, you know.

00:01:14.45
Bill
Yeah.

00:01:20.86
Anthony Dyer
And basically, if you've ever been to Ashford, North Carolina, about an hour west of there. And, you know, very small community. ah I tell people it's one of the the few places I still believe where, like, you know, your words, your bond, you know, and the handshakes as good as the contract and all that stuff, right?

00:01:34.20
Anthony Dyer
And everybody knew everybody, but, you know, with that, everybody knows everybody's business and whether that's good or bad. Yeah. whether that's good or bad depends on the the situation but yeah a lot of if i wanted to fishing for example i would just just walk down to the tunkacigi river you know things like that and um you know people usually come in the summer from uh or even winter sometimes from a new york and florida and some reason that's like a meeting point there in ah appalachia and so i basically my senior year in high school my dad gave me that cliche dollar college talk right where you're about to be a a grown man son it's time to get a job go to college you get out and And at first I talked to a Navy recruiter and he was talking about being on a boat for six months or so.

00:02:11.25
Anthony Dyer
And I was like, no, it's not for me. And talked to an Army recruiter and I can't remember exactly what he said, but I know I said no at that point. And then I was like, I want to talk to dad sort of about the quality life of the Air Force.

00:02:17.75
Bill
ah

00:02:22.08
Anthony Dyer
And he was in a long time before I was even born down at Tampa, McDill Air Force Base. sort of about the quality of life and, um you know, good child halls, TDYs, golf clubs, all that stuff that people joke about the Air Force about.

00:02:33.01
Anthony Dyer
But there I was, man, on my first fixed wing flight ever anyway, from ah Charlotte, North Carolina to west San Antonio, Texas for basic military training and did 21.4 years and retired at one December of 21.

00:02:46.68
Anthony Dyer
And, you know, I was telling somebody the other day, i I still read on the fifth grade level, man, but somehow managed to to get a book out, man. So the book's ah called Moonchild and I appreciate it, guys.

00:02:55.67
Bill
Yeah, no problem. And we'll have ah we'll have plenty of time to to talk about all of that. so And I know you got you got a background story too, and we might be a little bit different, right, Mike, on how we tell stories around here, but give a rundown of what we do of telling our stories.

00:03:08.86
Mike
Right. Well, basically, um you know, we know how to get fucked up. We know how to fuck up our lives. We know how to fuck up the lives of everybody around us. We know how to do that. We could sit here for hours and hours and hours and tell everybody just how to do that.

00:03:23.10
Mike
I already know how to get loaded. i don't need anybody to tell me how to do that.

00:03:25.27
Bill
and

00:03:25.85
Anthony Dyer
Yeah. Yeah.

00:03:27.20
Mike
Um, basically we don't like drunk logs. Um, you know, but we want to hear your story, little qualification and all that good stuff. Absolutely. But what we're interested in is the solution. How the hell we get out of that hole. That's what we want to know about.

00:03:44.06
Bill
Right.

00:03:44.22
Anthony Dyer
Yeah, that's a good point, man. i ah Believe it or not, man, I wrote a a quote for you guys last night. i mean you know My New Year's resolution, man, was to not be such of a quote whore, man. So decided this to sort of to to be one myself, man.

00:03:53.72
Mike
if

00:03:56.29
Anthony Dyer
And I was thinking about sobriety and, you know, the sort of poetic way of, you know, the struggle of putting it. And I wrote this. I was like, you know, there are hearts sheltered by comfort and there are hearts cursed by the relentless beauty of untamed things.

00:04:09.64
Anthony Dyer
There's a couple of different ways to look that could be about love, could be addiction. But really, if you think about it, sheltered hearts, you know, they're comfort seekers, people who live inside stability, routine, predictability, you know, not drawn to intensity, chaos or danger, escape where cursed people, you know, addicts or alcoholics, people in recovery, you know, you're, you're drawn to the edge, you know, and you want that adventure risk and sometimes even, you know, self-destruction. And I too was great at destructing my own life. So,

00:04:36.76
Mike
whom

00:04:37.55
Bill
Right.

00:04:39.86
Mike
Cool.

00:04:39.99
Bill
So you were, you were too much of a, too much of a quote whore is what you were saying. yeah

00:04:44.06
Anthony Dyer
yeah Yeah, man, I would always, ah you know, get these on these podcasts, they you know, certain quotes from different, you know, people, but finally decided, i was like you know what, I'm to this myself and see what see what I come up with. Yeah,

00:04:54.62
Mike
Yeah, right.

00:04:55.83
Bill
Yeah. I mean, it's, yeah, it's, it's fine, man. I mean, the, ah the quotes, quotes are good. And yeah, if you come up with them yourself, they're always, always a little bit interesting. So I'm sorry, Mike, go ahead.

00:05:04.44
Mike
No, no, no. Yeah, absolutely. That's basically what I was going to say.

00:05:07.45
Bill
Yeah, we've we've been, ah Anthony, we've been around each other for a couple of years, actually, from the start of our sobriety.

00:05:07.64
Anthony Dyer
yeah. yeah

00:05:13.33
Bill
So it's, ah yeah, we we know most of the things about each other and actually sometimes end up saying the same goddamn things.

00:05:16.69
Mike
Mm-hmm. Right.

00:05:19.05
Bill
But it's ah it's it's it's interesting, but in a in a fun way most of the time.

00:05:19.61
Anthony Dyer
Yeah, yeah. yeah

00:05:22.69
Bill
Right, Mike?

00:05:23.48
Mike
Right.

00:05:24.44
Anthony Dyer
yeah

00:05:24.79
Bill
So, but but yeah, go ahead, Anthony. And obviously, you can tell us, ah give a whole a little background, kind of that qualification a Mike was talking about, about, you know, kind of how you got to sobriety and, you know, walk us through.

00:05:35.74
Anthony Dyer
Yeah, no problem. So I had i didn't start flying until about 2010. was about halfway through my Air Force career there. And, you know, that's when i first started flying on the AC-130 gunship, you know, and the whole role behind the the gunship is to provide that close air support for those, you know, the super ninjas, I called them in the book, your SEALs, Green Berets, et cetera, and stuff like that. And there was really this sort of escalation in drinking that, And I didn't put the, you know, sort of the, the middle of that in the book, but there was definitely that, that's where it sort of started, you know, and, you know, living, living life fast and all that good stuff. And, you know, I remember landing and, you know, you would debrief a flight, there's always a debrief, you know, talk about your strengths and weaknesses. And, you know, usually there'd be like a 12 pack on the table, and especially if somebody's getting an evaluator or check ride, they would bring the, you know, evaluators alcohol and those that partook, you know, drink. And of course, always, always did that, you know, and,

00:06:25.30
Anthony Dyer
And then towards the end of my career, you know, and when I knew that the end was, you know, was ending my first career at that point, you know, my 20th year, what was a weekend drinking happened, turned into at least ah a pint a night, man. And, you know, mixing it with sleeping pills, you name it, man, just to get somewhat of a buzz and escape. Right. And, you know, so finally my wife, you know, obviously recognized at first and she was like, gave me that ultimatum of like, you know, it's, it's either, you know, the bottle or me or your daughter, you know, and And thank God, you know, I chose my family at that point. And that's when I decided to go to the USOCOM, basically a shrink.

00:07:00.57
Anthony Dyer
And I did the prolonged exposure therapy and, you know, behavioral health and stuff like that. And they they got me ah got me back on my feet and exited the Air Force and and then got sober, you know. So it was, a but you know, most honest conversation i ever had was that day with with myself and my wife and about my problem, you know.

00:07:17.29
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:07:17.44
Bill
Right.

00:07:17.45
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:07:19.22
Bill
So it sounds like this was a, it was a kind of a long, maybe a long buildup to it. That just is where it, where it peaked out for you.

00:07:25.75
Anthony Dyer
yeah Yeah, it was definitely like a, you know, it started out a little light of myself, right? Like, well, if I could deploy for three or four months, like, well, you know, I'm not an alcoholic, right? Because I could not drink because there's always this thing called called general order number one, I believe it is. And basically you can't drink while you're at war type thing.

00:07:43.03
Anthony Dyer
And, um you know, I'd get back and just, you know, i mean, just party, man, until the sun came up, you you name it, you know, and, you know. raw dog and randos, whatever you want to call it. It's that life, you know, making really bad decisions and, and all that stuff.

00:07:56.42
Anthony Dyer
And, you know, and then I would put that bandaid back on. Okay. Well, it's time to deploy again, you know, because back then the deployments were like 90 days on 90 days off. And as a flyer, it's usually geared towards your, your flight hour.

00:08:05.46
Bill
Right.

00:08:07.88
Anthony Dyer
So within 90 days, you can only hit like 330 or they have to set you down. There's waivers, but it tastes like an act of God. It felt like you get that, but you know, so I, you know, tell myself that lie, you know, and and even, even today, you know, like I tempt myself with that lie.

00:08:22.17
Anthony Dyer
If I'm being honest, you know, like people always ask me, they're like, you know, can't you, you know, go out and have, you know, a few drinks and be social.

00:08:28.41
Bill
ah

00:08:29.11
Anthony Dyer
And, and, and the thing is they know the answer to that question. Right. and And I know the answer to that, but you know, it starts like that.

00:08:32.79
Bill
right

00:08:32.86
Mike
Right.

00:08:36.14
Anthony Dyer
Right. And then I just have to just, just cut myself away from the situation. Cause i know what happens. We're all very, all or nothing type of people, right? you know and And I know once I opened that gate, ah I would wake up and ask those two terrible questions, right?

00:08:44.18
Mike
Right.

00:08:49.32
Anthony Dyer
Like, who do I owe money to? you know And who I need to apologize to? and And if you've ever had to really ask those questions, man, it's so an embarrassing like low moment and it's a terrible feeling, you know?

00:08:53.27
Mike
Right. Yeah.

00:08:59.64
Mike
Absolutely.

00:08:59.70
Bill
Right. Yeah, so in it real quick, Anthony, just pull back just a little bit from your microphone. Your your T's and your P's are hitting hitting kind of hard on there.

00:09:05.83
Anthony Dyer
Okay. Oh, I got you. Sorry.

00:09:09.16
Bill
not Not a big deal. Not a big deal. Everything everything obviously is fine. I just have figured might as well take care of it now in the first first handful of minutes.

00:09:14.95
Anthony Dyer
Gotcha.

00:09:15.60
Bill
So did you find – I guess stepping back into whenever you had like the first drinker in high school and whatever type of thing you did, did you find right away that um that this was a thing that you that you enjoyed? Was that a slow buildup or or how was that? Or was it immediately something that you're like, yeah, this is this is my thing?

00:09:35.74
Anthony Dyer
yeah Yeah, in high school, man, there was this point where I drank with a buddy, it was one of my basketball teammates, and I drank three beers, man, and remember it was the sickest, like, I've ever, know, I probably, I probably weighed, like, 160, man, but I got so sick off that, and and I was like, man, i don't want to do this, and there's a part of my career in 2003 where, this was way before I was a flyer, it was a weapons loader then, and I went to Osan, Korea, you know, and there's this, this beautiful drink called soju, if you ever had it, you know, and

00:09:44.34
Bill
ah

00:10:00.57
Anthony Dyer
The thing about soju is like, it's not really like regulated, you know, so like you could get something that's, you know, not really, but like really high proof, right. And then some it's really low and you don't know until that gremlin sneaks up on, you know, man, next thing you know, end up doing God knows what, but yeah.

00:10:14.24
Anthony Dyer
and that's when I really was like, man, like I, I like this feeling. I like, you know, I like being social on alcohol. like talking to to women on alcohol. I can do things that I would, or say things I would usually never say, um you know, with, without alcohol and, I always chase that, if I'm being honest.

00:10:28.44
Mike
Right. Yeah.

00:10:30.51
Anthony Dyer
you know I don't know if it's a a dopamine release or just social, you know what i mean? And was I felt like I was funnier if I was drunk. And you realize after the fact, you're like, man, like after the some of the stuff I've done, they're probably laughing at the dumb things I've done, you know not not because I'm a funny dude or anything, you know?

00:10:43.15
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:10:43.32
Bill
ah

00:10:45.14
Mike
Right. Laughing at you, not with you.

00:10:46.46
Anthony Dyer
Yeah, yeah.

00:10:47.35
Bill
ah

00:10:48.73
Anthony Dyer
But yeah, you know and it it all really really stems from those little... little escalation of lies, you know, to myself and to my family, to everyone around me. And, you know, next thing you know, I'm having to face that, you know, it's either the family or or the bottle.

00:11:02.25
Anthony Dyer
You know, i told someone, that you know, I've been called many call signs. Even my call sign when I was flying on helicopters, the rescue helicopters was Uncle Tito, man. So you could imagine just the, yeah, just the level of like, you know, drinking, you know, and we had these things called called First Fridays and like the first Friday of every month and the Jolly Green community, um you know, this basically the two green feet, it's all based on the the rescue you know missions that happened in Vietnam.

00:11:11.43
Mike
right?

00:11:15.83
Mike
right

00:11:27.58
Anthony Dyer
And there's this big Jolly Green giant in the in this this bar and there was like no phones in there, no hats on the table, these different rules, you know, and and usually if there's a call sign or a a a naming ceremony or green feet ceremony, especially the call sign ceremony, it's, it's nothing that you've done as good.

00:11:40.16
Bill
Thank you.

00:11:42.69
Anthony Dyer
It's usually something embarrassing, like either mess something up flying or an embarrassing moment in life.

00:11:44.57
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:11:46.85
Anthony Dyer
And, uh, mine was a uncle Tito man. So just to sort of paint a picture of how, you know, it all escalated throughout the years, you know, until finally I'm, I'm uncle Tito. I'm not, I'm the drunk guy, you know, was that guy.

00:11:57.21
Mike
yeah

00:11:58.59
Anthony Dyer
So.

00:11:59.00
Bill
So, and and you had mentioned earlier too that, you know, that, and I agree with you completely that, you know, as as far as alcoholics, drug addicts living on the edge. And um I mean, you, you chose a, you know, a thing, a career and a profession where you were kind of living on the edge.

00:12:12.83
Bill
Do you think that that was a coincidence or is that something that you were, you were drawn into because of the action or, or how did, how did you get drawn into the, into service like that?

00:12:23.58
Anthony Dyer
Yeah, there there was definitely like, always wanted more, you know, like it was never enough. And I don't want to say like in this adrenaline junkie something like that, but, but we're on a gunship, man. And like, you know, basically you're getting ready to follow this up. There's a troops in contact. These guys been getting shot at all day, right. And the nighttime comes up and, you know, the JTAC gives you those three words clear to engage. And you see the enemy start running like bees.

00:12:45.62
Anthony Dyer
Like that is a feeling like I always chase that. Right. And, And really looking back at it, it's not about that, you know, an enemy killing action, stuff like that. It's, it's about making sure someone's worst day, our our brothers and sisters on the ground is not their last day, you know, and there's a, ironically enough, there's, there's pictures all around that squadron, and you know, and letters.

00:12:59.81
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:13:00.04
Bill
Right.

00:13:03.56
Anthony Dyer
And there's this one, I always called it sort of my cornerstone of my Y behind, you know, the gunship and there's this Ranger holding his baby girl. And he, he thanks the, ah you know, the gunship squadron, and the 16th special operation squadron for the,

00:13:15.54
Anthony Dyer
the rounds and, you know, the close air support, he was able to go home and see his baby girl. And, you know, i looked at that letter a hundred times when I didn't have a family, i you know, I'm not sure it meant ah a lot to me then, but when when I got older and had a family and looked at it, I'm like, man, that that is an awesome responsibility.

00:13:29.02
Anthony Dyer
And a lot of the drinking problem became because of that loss of identity of that, you know, like I realized that that was over that in my mind, the sense of relevance that I may or may not have had, right.

00:13:34.79
Mike
Hmm. Hmm.

00:13:40.10
Anthony Dyer
Like it it was gone, you know, and, you know When you leave the military, there's this thing you often hear, it's called a DD-214, it's a blanket, and basically it's a form that says, that hey, I did 21 years you know honorably and all that, and so that that's it, it's got your whole service on there, and it's your retirement document. and so So you're in this office-type space, like this this setting, usually in those moments, your last day in uniform, you make sure everything's good to go. and you walk out that door, man, and there's there's no door handle on the other end of that door. So you can walk out this thing, right?

00:14:11.06
Anthony Dyer
So you can never really get back in. It's it's like the opposite of Hotel California, you know? and And that, you know, that addiction in itself, that had to get over myself a lot, right? Like like this machine goes on, you know, like um like this is going to go on and the gunship's going to be doing close-to-head support for years after I'm gone. So that was a hard thing to peel, to swallow, and that's, you know, replaced that with that last year, especially with with alcohol, you know?

00:14:34.55
Bill
Right. So when you when you had that conversation with your wife and, you know, and that sort of thing, kind of the the come to Jesus moment, I guess we hear a lot of people call it, you know, at the at the end there.

00:14:45.53
Bill
What did you what did you do at that time? Did you do any type of um ah like a program, a 12 step program? Did you do therapy? Did you do what did you do in ah in order to to get sober or try to get sober at that time?

00:14:59.32
Anthony Dyer
Yeah, it's awesome question. So the USOCOM has this thing, it's called Preservation of the Forsen Family. And so each squadron, and you get a ah you get a psychiatrist and you get a physical trainer and a physical therapist. and And um so that was the first step was going to see the psychiatrist, you know, and and the first thing they ask you is is like, how much, you know, substance abuse are you but doing? How much do you drink? You know, and and then usually it's tied together with this thing called ADAPT while you're in the Air Force. And it's alcohol, drug abuse, prevention and treatment, you know.

00:15:27.90
Anthony Dyer
And so there's not really the 12 step at that point, you know, it's an assessment and then they give you sort of this action plan type thing. And then aftercare would be more of the 12 steps stuff. But while I was with the psychiatrist, I did prolonged exposure therapy.

00:15:42.02
Anthony Dyer
So what they're doing is they're, you know, they're getting the what the why behind the substance abuse or the drinking or the trauma, whatever you want to call it.

00:15:48.04
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:15:48.42
Anthony Dyer
And, you know, what that therapy is, is like, because I didn't want meds at first. And, you know, you're you're talking about the root cause of that trauma. They're peeling back the onion and you start out by writing it out over and over and over.

00:15:59.96
Anthony Dyer
And then you get to a point where you you say, they actually time you saying it, man. And then you get to the point where you can talk about that moment in life that, you know, that I use in this excuse to to drink my my life away, you know, and they they get to that moment. They're so, and they're so good about pulling that stuff out of you and the five senses of that moment and stuff like that. And to basically where you get to your comfortable being uncomfortable, so sort of like what we're doing now, just talking, just having a conversation, you know, but they're you're getting past that, you know,

00:16:27.00
Anthony Dyer
that trip in the road

00:16:28.37
Mike
All right. Yeah, I like that. Getting comfortable being uncomfortable.

00:16:31.64
Anthony Dyer
oh yeah yeah yeah that that was uh honestly the the biggest part of my healing was you know sitting there those many days with a psychiatrist and that prolonged exposure you know treatment therapy and then you know once i i got out you know um there was eventually the the meds came the bupropion the prozac and One thing about bupropion, I'll tell you that, is you don't want to drink with that stuff, you know, because you even read on the bottle, it's like, you know, you have Caesars, and so I'd be lying if I didn't say that fear of that didn't help, you know, deter me from drinking a lot, you know, so.

00:16:32.70
Bill
yeah

00:16:54.19
Mike
Hmm.

00:17:00.26
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:17:03.41
Bill
Right. So when you, when you did that, then you, so you were still in the, you were still in the service and in in the military when, when you actually got sober, correct?

00:17:14.17
Anthony Dyer
yeah Yeah, I got sober right on the way out, man, so it was about a year, was it about 1.2 years of of like therapy and you know all these different things before I finally got out. And then when I got out, they basically wrote me a letter for the aftercare and I, so I went to like the Amarillo VA that's where I continued.

00:17:30.64
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:17:31.01
Anthony Dyer
Like, you know, that's when you get it. I got more into like the 12 step stuff and the, you know, the aftercare part of that, you know, the, I think the VA a that people call it the drug court. You ever heard people say drug court?

00:17:40.06
Bill
Right.

00:17:40.18
Mike
Sure.

00:17:40.17
Anthony Dyer
That's, yeah, that's what they're talking about. And I, I had my own like behavioral, you know, mental health type person with that as well. So.

00:17:48.09
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:17:49.14
Bill
Okay. So, and, and I mean, that's something that, you know, obviously we've had, we've had a lot of different people. Well, I mean, a lot of friends and heard a lot of, and we, we grew up in a, in a 12 step program, Alcoholics Anonymous.

00:18:01.46
Bill
But in the reason I ask these questions though, is that so many, it's not that we didn't know, you know, that there were other ways out there to get sober.

00:18:08.41
Anthony Dyer
Yeah.

00:18:08.62
Bill
We did, but in the, you know, in the, the four, almost in a half years that we've been doing this and number of people that we've talked to, which I kind of lost count. I don't even know, Mike, how many people we've talked to, um But the the number of different ways that people have have gotten sober and stayed sober is is really varied.

00:18:18.61
Mike
Right.

00:18:27.44
Bill
you know Some people will have a little bit of exposure to this and then you know full time in that, then they'll switch over to this at some point. And it's usually, it's it's therapy, it could be medication, it could be, um like you said, some sort of psycho psychotherapy, some sort of you know court ordered thing or military ordered thing or military structured thing or a 12 step program, who knows?

00:18:47.80
Bill
you know Some people to end up just doing it on their own.

00:18:48.05
Anthony Dyer
Yeah.

00:18:50.20
Bill
So that that's the reason for these questions is just kind of curious ah how you how you went through that sort of thing. And and I guess what you what you do now or how you continued outside of it. And then on top of that, I know you said that, you know, you kind of paint a paint a picture there when you walked out of that door with the door handle on it.

00:19:05.92
Bill
to get back in. I mean that in itself has to be a little unnerving, I suppose. And and I know people who've, you know, obviously rejoined, you know, after a military life, you know, rejoined the real world as they say, quote unquote, and we talked to people on here that have done it. So how, how was that transition for you? What did you get into? And then, um, how'd you end up staying sober through that whole process?

00:19:25.94
Anthony Dyer
Yeah, so there was a, basically, the day, like, within two weeks of me getting out, there was a ah a job opening. Someone had quit a job, and it's ah the flight simulators here at Cannon Air Force Base. And what that is is, like, you're in this this virtual reality, you know, thing that moves, multimillion-dollar, like, video game, if you will.

00:19:42.42
Anthony Dyer
And, you're you know, you know you're you're basically putting these, you know, the crews in these scenarios where, like, you know, a lot of times there's no –

00:19:42.49
Bill
but

00:19:48.73
Anthony Dyer
no right or wrong. There's a safe and unsafe, like life or death, you know, and, um, those types of decisions. So that way, when they get to it down range, they were like, okay, I've been here before. This is what we did, you know, again, comfortable being and uncomfortable.

00:19:58.01
Mike
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

00:19:58.19
Bill
Right.

00:20:00.70
Anthony Dyer
And so I was real sort of blessed, you know, by, you know, some friends who told me about that opening and I put in for it and got it, you know, and, and, uh, there was a very big, you know, falling off the moment or falling off the horse moment.

00:20:12.51
Anthony Dyer
You know, if I'm being honest where, you know, I did, I did fall off the horse. I did fall off that wagon. I let, you know, And you can let a lot of people down, but when you let your family down, that is a a very dark moment.

00:20:24.33
Anthony Dyer
You know, that's when the real one hits, you know, like, man, like i I've been doing so good, you know, but I fell off this horse, man. Like, like, how do I get back on it? And you start blaming, you start hating yourself, you know, so you don't want to, you don't want to get back on that horse, you know?

00:20:34.79
Mike
Right.

00:20:37.42
Anthony Dyer
And so, you know, when you fall from grace, man, it's a, it's a hard pill to swallow. And it's, it hurts 10 times more than the initial realizing you have a drinking problem. Cause you, cause the way i look at is I quit.

00:20:48.02
Anthony Dyer
I gave up. you know i quit and that was a hard feeling to sort of say those words and tell my tell my wife that you know and i mean of course she knew but like you know it was not fun and that one almost cost me that you know for real like almost cost me the whole you know the whole gamut so

00:20:57.43
Mike
Right.

00:20:58.21
Bill
Right.

00:21:04.24
Mike
Mm hmm. Yeah, you' right. Because you build a little trust up and then you fucking blow it again. And it's yeah.

00:21:08.85
Anthony Dyer
yeah yeah yeah man yeah yeah

00:21:10.58
Mike
And then how you going to do it? are you going to build it back up again? You know, can I ever trust you?

00:21:13.75
Anthony Dyer
yeah

00:21:14.82
Mike
Yeah, that's exactly. I mean, it's a big part of, you know, why I why I continue to stay sober, because I don't want to fucking have to try to build that trust back up again that I've worked all these years at.

00:21:24.31
Anthony Dyer
Yeah.

00:21:26.50
Mike
Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

00:21:28.73
Anthony Dyer
Yeah, yeah, and and I've learned too to say, like, you know, we'll see, right? Like, um you know, today's disaster might be the very thing that that saves you tomorrow. Like, I think about, like, like what if what if I didn't fall off that horse again to remind myself of this feeling and this hatred I had towards myself, you know, to to not be that guy again, you know?

00:21:40.91
Mike
Mm

00:21:46.23
Mike
Right.

00:21:46.58
Anthony Dyer
and so so I've learned to say that and just, um you know, not not kill myself over that you know, that, that hiccup, you know, and just to keep moving forward. Like if I look back, I'm, I'm lost, man, you know?

00:21:56.89
Mike
Right. Exactly. Yeah. I mean, that's, that's a big part of the program. And I mean, we talk about it on here all the time, you know, yes, our, all the bad things that we did in the past, and there were plenty of them, um, have worth today because we can use them to help the next guy.

00:22:11.55
Mike
You know, we can go, yeah, you know, I mean, Bill over there, he's a weirdo and he never relapsed ever. Um, but you know, I did plenty of times and, um,

00:22:18.58
Anthony Dyer
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

00:22:23.26
Mike
you know I can use that experience helping a new guy going, hey, man, you know I fucked up too. It's okay. you know there is We can fuck up and and still get back to this thing. It's not all lost just because we we may have a misstep somewhere along the way.

00:22:38.65
Bill
Right.

00:22:38.65
Anthony Dyer
Yeah. And and i I think, ah you know, there's the old proverb, like, you know I even put it in the book there. You fought out seven times, you get up eight. You know, the the point is, is to like, you you know, what's what's crazy, you look at the back of an air crew training folder, and there's this form called a 4110 that has, you know, your strengths and weaknesses.

00:22:45.21
Bill
Right. Right.

00:22:54.40
Anthony Dyer
And like, somebody asked me, like, what what makes a good air crew member? And I was like, well, it's, it's, yeah, it's good to know your strengths, but it's more important to know your weaknesses, because, because that's the ones you can work on. That's the ones you can constantly improve, you know, and So I always sort of thought about that as far as sort of, you know, applying flying and and to even perseverance, you know, and and getting back up, you know.

00:23:04.52
Mike
All right.

00:23:10.83
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:23:13.93
Anthony Dyer
my My first flight, yeah, yeah, you know, and it's, um yeah you're right.

00:23:14.30
Mike
Well, it sounds a lot like an inventory.

00:23:19.94
Anthony Dyer
I mean, it it sort of is, you know, it's, a yeah.

00:23:20.70
Mike
Yeah. Right. Yeah. Your strengths and your weaknesses. Good good and bad points.

00:23:23.88
Bill
Right.

00:23:23.97
Anthony Dyer
yeah

00:23:24.91
Mike
Absolutely.

00:23:25.18
Anthony Dyer
I never never thought of that way. It's a good way to put that. And, you know, my first flight on the AC-130 gun suit, it went so bad, guys, to where the instructor said something effective, like, you're the reason have to brief seatbelts on airliners, right?

00:23:35.56
Anthony Dyer
Like, it it went it went that bad, but he taught me one of the most important lessons I've ever learned in life.

00:23:36.31
Bill
ah

00:23:41.40
Anthony Dyer
He's like, he saw me licking my wounds, right, looking for that S word, that sympathy, right? And um he's ah he's like, what's the most important word in the dictionary? was like, don't even know where I'm at right now. My head's spinning, right? And he's like, perseverance.

00:23:51.76
Mike
Right.

00:23:52.58
Anthony Dyer
He's like, I want to think about that, what that word really means. And come back next flight and hit it ready to fight, man. And the next flight, we got to go to Melrose Range here and in New Mexico. And once I saw the 105 millimeter recoil up to 49 inches, I was like, man, I want to do this for the rest of my life, you know?

00:24:07.67
Anthony Dyer
and it And the point is, is to always get back up, you know, find a way.

00:24:07.93
Bill
Right.

00:24:10.84
Mike
yeah yeah don't quit keep moving forward man

00:24:12.14
Bill
Well, well, and, and, you know, that's the thing, and, you know, Mike have brought it up and I, this is my first run at this thing.

00:24:12.92
Anthony Dyer
oh yeah.

00:24:19.09
Bill
And I mean, Mike and I have ah the same amount of sobriety by four days. You know, we, we randomly met at the same random place in Ohio and have, have randomly built a relationship for, you know, 16 and 16 plus years.

00:24:28.34
Mike
uh-huh

00:24:30.52
Bill
But, um, I mean, no, I haven't relapsed yet. and And I was, I was taught that I need, that I need to say yet. I never tried to get sober you before this either. You know, not because I, um, I'm so special.

00:24:41.16
Bill
I was just too stupid to to realize that I had a problem. I'm too stupid, too delusional.

00:24:44.57
Mike
if you

00:24:46.16
Bill
Um, and I mean, completely too stupid and too delusional. That's, that's, I think of a couple other words, Mike. I mean, i but those are the only two I could think of, you know, that I, um,

00:24:53.69
Mike
Right? They're enough.

00:24:55.96
Bill
Yeah. And ah it it literally wasn't because, oh, I don't, I don't have a problem. I just never looked at it. So, but here's the thing, Mike made a really good point and believe me, that's not lost on me. I don't know how to talk somebody through what it feels like to relapse because I never have. Okay. Yet.

00:25:13.08
Bill
But um I've heard the stories. I mean, I don't have to, you know, i heard a comedian say one time, he goes, I don't need to have my arm fall off to, you know, see what a leper feels like or something like that.

00:25:15.39
Mike
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

00:25:21.90
Bill
You know, I don't need cancer to have empathy for somebody or to be able to hear the stories and and work from them. I can do that part. I can walk somebody out of, but there's no way in the world that I could, that I could say that I know what you felt like before you took that first drink or that first hit or that first pill.

00:25:37.33
Bill
I don't, I don't know. Maybe I know the feeling, but I don't know what it's like to actually, you know, take that action. And thankfully I don't, because here's my other problem. I'm a fucking egotist, you know, and and i'm of I'm of the full opinion that if if i if I do relapse, I will not be able to come back.

00:25:46.93
Mike
Hey, hey, hey, hey.

00:25:47.38
Anthony Dyer
Yeah.

00:25:54.22
Bill
And you mentioned that, Anthony, about coming back, having to tell your wife, having to tell people, telling people that you fell off the horse or the wagon, whatever you want to say. I don't know. i hope my ego would allow me to do it, but I'm not confident of that.

00:26:06.98
Bill
So I don't want to take that chance because then what that means is if I get to the point where I drink, that means I've i've lost faith in everything I've done for the last X number of years or whatever the time is at that point.

00:26:17.44
Bill
So that's that's the first big real problem. So I'd have to work back from that. But on top of that, getting to the point of possibly having a big case of the fuck hits and being an egotist, I'd probably just drink myself to death, go, you know, go disappear and drink myself to death.

00:26:31.73
Bill
And I don't want to do that today. You know, so, so there's, there's that part of it. But, um but yeah, you know, when he was just talking about what he said, inventory, you know, that's something that we do in Alcoholics Anonymous as part of our 12 step program.

00:26:43.93
Bill
And the fact that it's in a military

00:26:44.26
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:26:46.68
Mike
Yelp.

00:26:47.56
Bill
booklet like that is is kind of interesting to me, you know, that really, I mean, strength and weaknesses, it's just, I mean, you're they're forcing you to take a look at yourself, which is what we have to do when we get sober.

00:26:48.47
Anthony Dyer
Yeah.

00:26:57.24
Bill
Everyone should. Maybe they don't have to.

00:26:58.45
Mike
Right.

00:26:59.28
Bill
If you want to if you want to live a good, solid, sober existence and be happy, you probably should take a look at a couple of fucking things, you know, that that either went on or the way things are happening, right? Right.

00:27:09.50
Anthony Dyer
Yeah, yeah and and I think back to sort of what Mike was getting at earlier about, you know, like experience as a hell of a teacher, right? Like one of the, you know, ironically enough, the Tuskegee Airmen said, you know, experience is a hell of a teacher.

00:27:15.65
Bill
Right.

00:27:15.80
Mike
Right?

00:27:21.42
Anthony Dyer
Life's ah even flying hell of a a teacher, man. First comes the exam, then comes the lesson, you know.

00:27:26.55
Bill
yeah Right. Right.

00:27:26.93
Anthony Dyer
there's There's always this trial and this big bump that that, you know, that life has a way of reminding us of how, you know, fragile hope can be, right, if if we let it be.

00:27:38.55
Bill
So when, so you, you get the, you get the job. So you're still, the good thing is, is you're still kind of plugged into the military thing or at least feeling right. Unless I'm getting that wrong. Um, so at that point, um, do you, do you stay at that job?

00:27:47.51
Anthony Dyer
Correct. Yeah.

00:27:52.26
Bill
Um, does that, does that kind of help fill the void or, or how do things go at at that point?

00:27:57.53
Anthony Dyer
Oh yeah. And I'd be lying if I, you know, I miss flying every day, actually flying, you know, there's, I mean, to me, there's, there's nothing like I mean, that's, that's who I was, you know, and, but this one keeps me somewhat in the game still, you know, and it's, it's cool when you go to do get to see the fruits of the labor, like, you know, when someone's struggling, right.

00:28:01.88
Mike
Mm hmm.

00:28:01.98
Bill
right

00:28:12.90
Anthony Dyer
And, And you sort of explain something in a way where, you you know, you provide a scenario in a way that they get it in the light bulb kicks, man. And you realize, man, like like teaching is, you know, we get older in years, man.

00:28:20.55
Mike
Right.

00:28:24.32
Anthony Dyer
I think, you know, life gives us a way to sort of pass these lessons on to to those younger than us, right?

00:28:29.93
Mike
Mm hmm.

00:28:30.10
Bill
Right.

00:28:31.96
Mike
Yeah.

00:28:32.22
Bill
Yeah. And I mean, and that's the thing, too, that I was just thinking about probably the well, as far as from a from an actual paid job. I mean, when I used to do training in the industries that I was in, and that was one of the most fulfilling things in in the world for me from a job standpoint, because the same thing, you're helping to develop individuals into whatever it is they're aspiring to do. So that that's kind of cool.

00:28:53.40
Bill
And same type of thing is that, you know, when you see that light bulb come on and that sort of thing, always very cool. Yes, you see somebody, you know, certain people that don't make it and all those sort of things. That is what it is and that's life.

00:29:03.85
Bill
But then you flip over into the sobriety side of things and then we get that same opportunity, you know.

00:29:04.15
Anthony Dyer
Yeah. Oh, yeah.

00:29:08.83
Bill
I mean, at some point, whether you're involved, you know, in a 12-step program or an organized type of, you know, sobriety program or recovery program, Or whether it's, you know, doing things on your whatever the case is, you know, to to Mike's point, and you just mentioned it again, Anthony, is the fact that all these lessons at some point, not just from your military life and your work life and your professional life, but now from from the sobriety life, we have that ability, you know, to help people and to provide that wisdom and to to train people, if you will, or teach people.

00:29:08.94
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:29:36.59
Bill
And, you know, what a great opportunity there is somebody really wants it. You know, we can show them, you know, most cases what to do, but also sometimes more importantly, what not to do.

00:29:46.97
Anthony Dyer
Oh, yeah.

00:29:47.17
Mike
Right.

00:29:47.29
Anthony Dyer
and And I think as far as like lessons learned and all that stuff, you know we all at least have the ability now to sort of recognize when somebody is going down that that road. Right. And there's, you know, there's signs and symptoms.

00:29:55.88
Bill
Right.

00:29:57.21
Anthony Dyer
And, you know, in the military, there's this thing called 22 a day. And, you know, and unfortunately, I have known guys that have have, you know, took their own life. You know, it's it's a terrible thing. You know, and the the way I look at it, man, is like, you know, I'm either my brother's keeper or I'm not.

00:30:10.04
Anthony Dyer
you know the age-old question you know like like basically like i can either check on my bro right and and and there's a difference between saying like hey how's he going man or like calling that person up you haven't talked to him for a month and be like how you doing really man like i noticed this this and this and you know accountability is a hell of a thing you know and it and it sucks when you're the one on the other end of that trust me i know man but uh you know but it is part of being your brother's keeper and my brothers i mean brothers and sisters you know

00:30:23.59
Mike
Right. Mm-hmm.

00:30:26.14
Mike
e

00:30:36.47
Bill
Right. Yeah, absolutely. So quick question. you started off, you were born and raised in Asheville, North Carolina, correct?

00:30:44.82
Anthony Dyer
ah Silver North Carolina, it's an hour west of Asheville.

00:30:47.29
Bill
Oh, okay. I'm sorry about the Asheville. So at that part, then you mentioned so far, New Mexico, are you in New Mexico or Texas or where are you right now?

00:30:55.84
Anthony Dyer
So I'm eastern New Mexico, a small town called Clovis, New Mexico, right outside of Cannon Air Force Base.

00:31:00.54
Bill
Oh, okay, cool.

00:31:00.59
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:31:01.34
Bill
Cool. Yeah, I was was actually in i was in Albuquerque for a week, about a year and a half ago. i New Mexico blew my fucking mind as I drove into there.

00:31:09.21
Anthony Dyer
Yeah, man.

00:31:10.14
Bill
I was just like, oh my God.

00:31:10.52
Anthony Dyer
Yeah.

00:31:12.18
Bill
Now, Mike's a truck driver. he's He's been through and driven through everywhere, right, you know Mike?

00:31:16.34
Mike
ye

00:31:17.22
Bill
But literally, it just it blew my mind. out i just It was unbelievable how ah beautiful it was. but i I mean, I know there's you know bases all over the place, so you're you're not too far outside of from from a base, correct, in that area?

00:31:30.33
Anthony Dyer
Craig, yeah, it's it's right up the road. That's that's where i work at, you know, and the funny thing about Ibercourt, I tell people that that car wash from Breaking Bad, as that's like a national monument over here, man. You know what mean?

00:31:39.26
Bill
ah

00:31:39.54
Anthony Dyer
People come from all over the world to get their picture taken beside that thing, so.

00:31:43.93
Bill
Oh, yeah. I went to and i'm a huge Breaking Bad fan. I did a um I was only there a week and I only had Sunday to kick around. But I did this whole Breaking Bad tour and I took pictures. I took selfies in front of all these places, including that car wash.

00:31:56.62
Bill
And then went out. I went out in the desert where they where they did their their first cook and where the big gunfight was.

00:31:57.84
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:31:58.58
Anthony Dyer
yeah

00:32:02.38
Bill
So was all the way out on that on the reservation out there.

00:32:02.78
Anthony Dyer
Oh, yeah

00:32:05.76
Bill
That was spectacular. But I mean, I again, I want to go back there because I really didn't have I didn't have a lot of time to spend, you know, just kicking around. I'm glad I did what I did and was able to see those those things.

00:32:17.71
Bill
But yeah, Walter Whitehouse. I mean, there there's a fence around it.

00:32:20.18
Anthony Dyer
yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

00:32:20.91
Bill
There was a that the the people I think those people, but I'm not mistaken, within the last handful of months, the people that were there for years, I think they just sold Um, if I'm not mistaken, but there was a fence in front of it that it looked like, um, almost a, uh, like a security SUV they had parked in the driveway.

00:32:38.22
Bill
I don't know if they did that for show, but I literally parked, I wasn't even on the main street. I went down the other street. So probably, i don't know, i was two, three houses away from theirs and across the street.

00:32:50.18
Bill
And I pulled in, it was, but i don't know, probably nine o'clock in the morning, whatever it was. I get out of my car and I walked to the back of my car to take a picture. And a lady comes walking out of her garage. And I'm like, in my mind, I'm like, are you just always sitting there?

00:33:03.20
Bill
You know, and I didn't, I didn't even cross the street.

00:33:03.74
Anthony Dyer
Oh, yeah.

00:33:04.16
Mike
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

00:33:05.60
Bill
I took, I took two pictures. I took one picture just to the house that I turned around, took a selfie in front of it. And then I left, you know, but I went, I went in front of all these different places, but it was, yeah.

00:33:15.67
Bill
I mean, my, my understanding is they get that all those places, they just get flooded with people. I mean, it's gotta to be, I got, I get it. You know, I couldn't even imagine, you know, being a person that owned that home and getting that type of foot traffic.

00:33:23.26
Anthony Dyer
ah yeah

00:33:27.07
Bill
it would just be crazy.

00:33:28.31
Anthony Dyer
Yeah, I think think deep down, man, we all want to be a free wild spirit like Jesse Pinkman, right? Like that guy had the life, man, you know, what closing and down strip clubs in Albuquerque, you know, you name it, man.

00:33:33.43
Mike
since city

00:33:34.90
Bill
Yeah.

00:33:37.62
Anthony Dyer
That dude lived it.

00:33:39.19
Bill
Right, yeah. yeah then yeah he At the end of it, obviously, and then that what was the El Camino was the the one that came came beyond that but yeah that. That whole show, i've watched I've watched through it a few times. so You never watched any of that, did you, Mike?

00:33:52.19
Mike
Nope.

00:33:52.82
Bill
Yeah, I mean...

00:33:53.25
Anthony Dyer
Yeah.

00:33:54.10
Mike
Did a lot of speed.

00:33:54.39
Bill
ever

00:33:55.48
Anthony Dyer
Yeah.

00:33:55.61
Mike
Does that count? No,

00:33:57.30
Bill
You mean the movie Keanu Reeves and Sandra Bullock?

00:33:59.93
Mike
no, no, no. It's a drug.

00:34:03.06
Anthony Dyer
hey

00:34:03.35
Bill
I'm fucking with you.

00:34:04.02
Anthony Dyer
Hey, Mike, I got to ask you this, Mike.

00:34:04.12
Bill
I just figured it.

00:34:06.43
Anthony Dyer
So you remember you remember the mini-thens back in the day? We used to call them gas station speed, like they were...

00:34:10.62
Mike
yeah, yeah, yeah. Right.

00:34:11.45
Anthony Dyer
Yeah, like, yeah man, they they got rid of those, you know, or whatever. But I remember in high school, even, man, like, like that was that was my thing. Not alcohol, right? But, like, I would take those before a basketball game.

00:34:18.90
Mike
Right.

00:34:20.69
Anthony Dyer
And there's there was something different in those things there, man, where, like, my legs felt lighter.

00:34:23.90
Mike
Yeah.

00:34:25.56
Anthony Dyer
Like, I could walk on air, bro. So so that was really sort of my first, um if I'm being honest, like, experience with addiction, you know?

00:34:27.46
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:34:32.06
Mike
Yeah.

00:34:33.45
Anthony Dyer
And, I mean, you used to be give them six bucks, you'd get 60 of them, you know?

00:34:34.39
Mike
Right.

00:34:36.57
Anthony Dyer
and man Man, but look looking back at it, man, I was so dumb, man, like,

00:34:36.86
Mike
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

00:34:41.27
Anthony Dyer
You know, i could have heart attack. God knows what I probably lung problems to this day, probably because that.

00:34:43.48
Mike
yeah yeah

00:34:46.22
Anthony Dyer
But yeah.

00:34:47.58
Bill
What were they?

00:34:47.80
Anthony Dyer
Yeah.

00:34:48.14
Bill
Tell me. I'm missing an example.

00:34:49.50
Mike
Mini fins. Yeah, they they were like, they were ah generic crosstops that, yeah, you get them at the gas station. i I've had handfuls of them.

00:34:57.66
Anthony Dyer
yeah

00:34:57.90
Mike
Don't drink on them because you fucking black out, but keep going.

00:34:59.00
Anthony Dyer
Oh, man.

00:35:00.94
Mike
And and you do some real stupid shit on that.

00:35:05.85
Anthony Dyer
Yeah, and then I remember, too, there was a point where, like, GNC sold a federal – I think they they took it off the –

00:35:12.39
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:35:12.50
Anthony Dyer
the shelves, but, but it was back when the, you had the Martin McGuire and the Sammy Sosa, the, i I love, that's the only time I ever watched baseball, man. When you had those two, two Titans going at it when they're on D ball, you know, like, like there's some very American about that, that always, I like stuff like that.

00:35:20.22
Mike
Right? Yep.

00:35:20.58
Bill
Heh heh.

00:35:20.64
Mike
Yep. Yep.

00:35:27.10
Anthony Dyer
You know what I mean? And and to be honest with you, who cares, man? It's their athletes. Like it makes sports more interesting, you know, but, but yeah, that was in that era, man, where you you could go get you some gas station speed and you'd be ready to party, man.

00:35:31.70
Mike
right

00:35:38.90
Mike
yeah

00:35:39.16
Bill
yeah

00:35:39.93
Anthony Dyer
Yeah. Yeah.

00:35:40.82
Bill
It's, you know, and again, I just completely, apparently I completely missed that gas, gas station speed. So what was it?

00:35:45.85
Mike
ya

00:35:45.82
Anthony Dyer
yeah

00:35:46.70
Bill
And now I can't remember what the hell the, that shit that we were talking about, Mike, that I heard in a podcast episode that was that, that came from the root, whatever that, dumb no, it wasn't ginseng.

00:36:00.44
Bill
It was like, right.

00:36:00.66
Mike
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. the um Fuck now. I can't remember either. Yeah, right.

00:36:06.04
Anthony Dyer
yeah

00:36:06.82
Mike
um ah Starts with a K.

00:36:07.93
Bill
It was,

00:36:10.62
Mike
ah Ketamine. No, not ketamine.

00:36:13.08
Bill
Yeah, it was in ketamine.

00:36:13.18
Mike
um

00:36:13.72
Anthony Dyer
Kratom? Kratom?

00:36:14.89
Mike
Kratom.

00:36:15.03
Bill
Kratom.

00:36:15.48
Anthony Dyer
Kratom, yeah, Kratom, yeah.

00:36:15.59
Bill
Kratom. There you go.

00:36:16.12
Mike
yeah That's it.

00:36:16.50
Anthony Dyer
yeah yeah

00:36:17.02
Bill
Look at that. How many how many alcoholics and drug addicts does it take to think of the word kratom?

00:36:18.87
Mike
All right.

00:36:20.84
Bill
Heh heh heh.

00:36:21.40
Anthony Dyer
Oh, man, I was...

00:36:21.53
Mike
Three.

00:36:22.68
Anthony Dyer
You know, I was always back then, especially when I was younger, trying to find ways to, i don't know, catch a buzz, you know.

00:36:23.14
Bill
Heh heh heh.

00:36:27.13
Anthony Dyer
But, but yeah, it used to be literally you go to a gas station, man, they and like you were saying, there's these white crosses on.

00:36:27.45
Mike
Mm hmm.

00:36:32.82
Anthony Dyer
That's how you knew had the, you know, the authenticious stuff, if that's even a word. But, yeah, the real ones, you know, and, you know, you take five or six of them, and especially when I was 16, man, 160 pounds.

00:36:36.57
Mike
Right.

00:36:43.97
Anthony Dyer
Man, you walk on air, bro, and, i you know, I love that feeling, if I'm being honest, you know, but.

00:36:48.80
Mike
Yeah.

00:36:49.46
Bill
Yeah, there was a um there was a podcast that I was listening to with that whole Kratom stuff, and i had never I had never heard of it. And she was actually from Ohio, and that's I had made a note of and brought it up. Mike and I were talking about it.

00:37:00.02
Bill
He had heard of it, but never – it was like after – the timeframe after we got sobered that it became, I guess, quote-unquote popular.

00:37:04.63
Mike
Right.

00:37:06.75
Bill
But it's been banned in several states, Ohio being one of them. But, I mean, this this chick that was telling her story on this podcast, it gone through all these different things. you know it was alcohol and drugs and all this different shit that she was doing.

00:37:18.75
Bill
And then she got hooked on that shit. And she said it was almost like um withdrawing from heroin when she was coming down off of it. And i'm like, what the hell is this stuff?

00:37:28.02
Mike
so

00:37:28.00
Anthony Dyer
Yeah, I think they give it to guys to sort of get off opioids is the ironic part.

00:37:28.70
Bill
And.

00:37:33.11
Mike
right

00:37:33.86
Anthony Dyer
And then people start taking more and more, next thing know, someone's liver kidney shut down.

00:37:34.50
Bill
Right.

00:37:40.32
Anthony Dyer
The way I look at it, man, yeah, you're robbing Peter to pay Paul right at that point, and it's the same thing.

00:37:41.68
Mike
it's all pretty bad yep absolutely

00:37:43.00
Bill
Right.

00:37:46.98
Anthony Dyer
Yeah.

00:37:47.96
Bill
Oh, you know, it's funny, Mike, and I just, because Mike has always said, you know, and we we've talked about it, you know, and Mike will always start off with, you know, and anytime we have these stories about these things where there's all these, you know, issues with this, that, and the other thing, or somebody dies or overdoses or fentanyl and blah, blah, blah.

00:38:02.74
Bill
You know, he always starts it off with, you know, unpopular opinion, but, you know, you feel that legalization, right? I mean, yeah.

00:38:08.02
Mike
Oh, absolutely. Yeah. You know, I mean, look, I did everything, you know, I did meth, I did heroin, I did coke, I did crack, I did whatever, you know, you name it, I did it. And um yeah, you know, the law never stopped me from doing any of it, you know, so legalize it, tax it, make sure it's safe and clean and let's move on and stop wasting, stop wasting all this money on the war on drugs.

00:38:30.36
Anthony Dyer
Oh, yeah

00:38:30.46
Bill
Well, and the reason

00:38:36.15
Bill
Well, it's money and it's lives. And you know who brought it up? and he who was to I don't know even know who he talking to, but I was listening to um Rogan the other day.

00:38:43.13
Mike
Yeah.

00:38:43.36
Bill
And this was probably from three, four years ago, I think, because I'm you know digging back through somebody. I'll say three years ago, maybe again, maybe four.

00:38:48.38
Mike
here

00:38:50.80
Bill
But um you know he was talking about something in the fentanyl thing. And this is it was like because that was probably around that time frame when when fentanyl really started hitting five, six years ago. Right. I mean, when it started like picking up, I think.

00:39:00.49
Mike
Right. Yup.

00:39:02.16
Bill
So was probably around that time. And he said the same goddamn thing. He's like, he goes all this stuff.

00:39:05.59
Mike
Yeah.

00:39:06.48
Bill
He goes, these people don't know what they're buying. He goes, it's cut and it's stomped on.

00:39:08.45
Mike
Yeah.

00:39:09.56
Bill
It's this, that. And, you know, he was saying, I think he was talking to somebody on an episode one time. And he said, you know, from, from pure down to, you know, ah street level at some point, you know, the, the percentage, and I forget what it was.

00:39:22.37
Bill
It was really fucking low of what it was anymore of the product. And the rest was just everything else, you know?

00:39:27.70
Mike
Right.

00:39:28.02
Bill
So, I mean, literally, and even though we know that, I mean, you you don't know what you're, what you're getting, you buy it on the street, you know, and you're ending up with, you know, you take one hit, one snort, one, whatever, what you normally do and you're fucking dead, you know, before you know it.

00:39:32.45
Anthony Dyer
Oh yeah.

00:39:39.02
Mike
Nope.

00:39:39.74
Bill
So I don't know.

00:39:40.44
Mike
Right.

00:39:41.05
Anthony Dyer
Yeah,

00:39:41.32
Bill
I mean, it's, and like, to your point, I mean, at least if nothing else. And, um you know, I think there would still, I think there'd be this initial, ah well he is he made a good point.

00:39:50.18
Mike
Right.

00:39:50.29
Bill
He goes, he goes, there's no politicians going step out there and try to endorse that.

00:39:53.14
Mike
right

00:39:53.78
Anthony Dyer
that. Yeah.

00:39:54.33
Bill
And I'm like, i understand that too, but somebody sometime has got to have some fucking balls around here. You know, some politician has got to be rather than just, you know, sucking on the dick who whoever came before him, you know, and just, you know, going along the lines of all of whatever this, this party line is and make a goddamn decision to try to make something, you know, good for the rest of us, you know, but, um, and I'm not saying I want to, I want to do drugs.

00:40:04.69
Anthony Dyer
yeah

00:40:15.55
Bill
I don't want to do drugs, whether they're legal or not, but it'd be nice not to have millions of people die, you know?

00:40:17.53
Mike
Right.

00:40:20.26
Mike
Yeah, exactly.

00:40:21.02
Anthony Dyer
Yeah, I think to Mike's point, yeah I mean, you're right. You look at how the mafia got rich, right? was prohibition.

00:40:26.42
Bill
Oh, yeah.

00:40:26.94
Anthony Dyer
It was it was illegal. And and they were like, okay, we can exploit this did this vice.

00:40:29.46
Mike
Yeah.

00:40:31.66
Anthony Dyer
And everybody has a vice, man. it You know, and the word religion, really, like if you think about it, it could be anything. It could be drinking as a religion or, you know, I dip religiously tobacco, drugs religiously, whatever the case is.

00:40:43.61
Anthony Dyer
And when you take that power away from that that vice, you know, which just means legalizing it, saying it's available, you know.

00:40:48.60
Mike
Right.

00:40:50.17
Anthony Dyer
Yeah, but yeah, you're taking that power away and that's what I think you would see huge number changes at that point, you know?

00:40:55.22
Mike
Yeah, absolutely. You know, I mean, well, I mean, you know, I know you're not an AA guy, but in the big book, they do talk about that because both of the guys, you know, ah Bill Wilson and Bob Smith, Dr.

00:40:56.24
Bill
Right.

00:41:06.31
Mike
Bob, um both were in the depths of their alcoholism when it was illegal.

00:41:07.81
Anthony Dyer
Yeah.

00:41:13.40
Mike
So they knew the the folly of prohibition.

00:41:14.09
Anthony Dyer
Yeah.

00:41:16.95
Mike
And yeah, absolutely. they They talk about it. We're not supposed to be anti-alcohol. We're, you know, we're just we just can't.

00:41:22.74
Anthony Dyer
Yeah. Yeah. You know, and I heard they're starting to dabble with, I don't know how true this is, but the VA with, you know, hallucinogens type of DMT type stuff, you know, and, you know, and there's, there has to be, if there's a lot of smoke with stuff.

00:41:32.21
Mike
Right? Yup.

00:41:37.74
Anthony Dyer
There has to be somewhat of a fire, right? Like, I mean, there's people go to South America and they do the ayahuasca and, you know, and I'm i'm curious about that, man.

00:41:39.63
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:41:42.68
Mike
Right?

00:41:44.90
Anthony Dyer
Like, okay, when are they going to make it right? I could try that, you know, and be okay.

00:41:48.47
Mike
Yeah.

00:41:48.80
Anthony Dyer
And, you know, but yeah, I'm really curious about that stuff, but.

00:41:50.51
Mike
Right.

00:41:52.95
Mike
Yeah. And again, back back to the founders, you know, Bill Wilson took acid in the 60s under a psychologist's care because he was fucking having problems and it like kept him sober doing, you know, having a doctor prescribe LSD to him.

00:41:53.62
Bill
Listen, do you mean?

00:41:58.04
Anthony Dyer
yeah

00:42:08.49
Mike
And he tripped a couple of times and went, oh, fuck. OK, I'm OK again. Yeah, right. You know, there's it's it's drugs are there for a reason.

00:42:13.72
Anthony Dyer
yeah yeah ah yeah yeah yeah Yeah, man, yeah you're not lying about that.

00:42:17.45
Mike
You know, we just can't do them because, well, I can't do them because I abuse them. Because I have a problem.

00:42:22.82
Bill
Right.

00:42:23.62
Mike
I'm chemically different than normal people.

00:42:28.12
Anthony Dyer
I think there is something so much different in our DNA where, like like I said, I can't have a few and be social.

00:42:32.34
Mike
Yeah.

00:42:34.28
Anthony Dyer
that That's not me.

00:42:34.65
Mike
Right. Mm-hmm.

00:42:35.32
Anthony Dyer
And, again, the person asking you that question, they know the answer to that. you In a way, you're sort of getting tested, but, yeah, I feel that 100%.

00:42:39.68
Mike
Sure. Right. Yeah, right.

00:42:43.82
Bill
Well, you know, and the thing of it is, too, is that and thankfully, you know, I'm trying to think there's been I can think of, well, two people and two people only. and i And I never spent any time with them after I got sober.

00:42:56.38
Bill
There were people that I hung out with that I drank with prior, you know, prior to getting sober.

00:43:00.53
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:43:00.89
Bill
And the one guy that I don't know, he had reached out to me at one point. And I think I was friends with him on Facebook or something like that. And, you know, I i messaged a back or whatever the deal was and told him what my situation was.

00:43:12.04
Bill
and at that point, I think I had been, i don't know, I'd been sober maybe seven, eight years at that time, maybe a little bit less, maybe longer, doesn't really matter. But he's like, really? goes, well, didn't think, because I really thought you had a problem.

00:43:23.66
Bill
And in my head, I'm like, are you fucking? And then I'm like, oh, I'm like, okay. So two things. I remember he drank with me, you know, um but he was also bipolar, you know, so I don't know that he was always in, you know, and nothing wrong with anyone who's bipolar if they're doing the things they need to.

00:43:30.53
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:43:38.97
Bill
But I was around him when he was off his meds and he was was a fucking mess, you know. So I don't know when he was and wasn't medicated, what he did and did see or what he saw as a reality or not.

00:43:49.56
Bill
And then the other guy, um you know, wanted, he's like, oh, we'll get together. Let's, you know, get together. I think when he first reached out to me and I never friended him on Facebook, but he's like, oh, let's, you know, go out and have a drink. I'm like, oh, yeah, I got sober or whatever. He's like, oh, let's we can just go get together and blah, blah, blah. Then I'm like, in my head, I'm like, what are we going to do?

00:44:06.81
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:44:06.84
Bill
You know, and because what we did together was we drank, you know, and he he played in a band.

00:44:06.95
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:44:13.14
Bill
He loved music. um I mean, he was he was actually I went to couple of people that he had you know messed around with and played with. And i mean, they were really good. We used to hang out and watch his friends play and he played.

00:44:25.17
Bill
It was just it was fucking awesome. But we we're the main point was we're going to go drink, but they're going play while we're there, you know. Or we're going to go get together and we're going to go hang out here and we're going to drink, you know, but we're, we're doing something else.

00:44:36.62
Bill
was just how my life was, you know? And then I think he reached out to me one other time and said, Hey, you know, so we should still, we get together sometime and have a drink. I'm like, you remember I'm sober, right? And he's ah, sorry. We should just get together.

00:44:47.43
Bill
And then I'm like, fuck it. I didn't even respond back to him. Cause i'm like the same thing in, in nothing.

00:44:49.97
Anthony Dyer
so

00:44:52.64
Bill
We talk about that every once in a while on here, um you know, and it's talked about in, again, you know, in the 12-step program is, you know, you got to change everything but your name. a lot of times it's people, places, and things.

00:45:03.08
Bill
You can't do all the things with the same people. You can't go to all the same places, at least not in the beginning, you know.

00:45:07.54
Mike
All right.

00:45:09.82
Bill
Maybe over time, um I mean, Mike mike is ah is a great example of somebody that, you know, did what he would maybe shouldn't have so soon.

00:45:18.30
Mike
Right.

00:45:18.71
Bill
But he, you know, he's ah he's a huge fan of music, live music and concerts.

00:45:19.03
Mike
he

00:45:23.24
Bill
He goes to bars, real bars and sees music all the time, you know, where to begin with, maybe he tested a little bit, you know, too soon.

00:45:24.83
Mike
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

00:45:29.84
Bill
His his own words, not mine.

00:45:30.27
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:45:31.44
Bill
You know, but now he does it all the time, you know, but, but the thing of it is, is that there are certain people that I just have, there's nothing wrong with them.

00:45:31.54
Mike
Right.

00:45:39.22
Bill
I just, I have nothing in common with them to just, I'm not gonna hang out because we used to just drink together.

00:45:39.22
Mike
Right.

00:45:44.06
Bill
That's all we would do, you know? So.

00:45:45.90
Anthony Dyer
Man, I got a funny story about, sort of about what what's something you just said, but ah we were in Afghanistan, man, on the gunship. There was this pilot, man. He's the one that told me to tell the Dick Shoners to get off the radio, the the drone guys, you know. And um so he's up there up front. There's a pilot and co-pilot. And, you know, there's there's always a little bit sort of ribbing or, you know, giving a new guy shit, whatever everyone call it. And so the co-pilot says something Game of throne Thrones, you know, and and the the pilot looks at him and he goes,

00:46:13.11
Anthony Dyer
listen, man, he goes, the moment somebody tells me they like dragons, like he's like, it's not that I don't like that person. I just, we have nothing in common. like i I just won't have a beer with that person, you know? So yeah. And I i sort of joined that fan club of not liking dragons. And long story short, they talked me into going to the day room. i'm I'm watching this game of a throne show and it's the one where the guy shaves the other guy's chest and the other guy gives him hammer right after it, you know, turned the whole series off for me, but eventually I ended up watching it later. But yeah.

00:46:40.40
Anthony Dyer
So yeah.

00:46:40.65
Mike
Hehehehehehe.

00:46:42.20
Bill
Yeah, i mean, it's kind of funny.

00:46:43.34
Anthony Dyer
Mm-hmm.

00:46:43.72
Bill
I watched i watched one, i think, one half of one episode of that. And and it's just, I'm always of the the mindset. There's a lot of TV shows that I have watched and a lot of shows like that that I haven't.

00:46:54.71
Bill
a lot of ones that are considered to be, you know, great and groundbreak groundbreaking and all sorts of things. That's fine. You know, but if it doesn't catch me right off the bat, and but, and you know, i'm Breaking Bad was like that.

00:47:05.43
Bill
I had to watch that. I watched the first episode, I think, three times.

00:47:07.96
Anthony Dyer
yeah

00:47:08.43
Bill
And then had to go into like the second and third when finally got, got hooked in by that show. And I forget what the other one was. It's been like a couple of shows, but I don't know. I never got into game of Thrones, but you know, people who, people who watch it, I mean, we're diehards.

00:47:22.25
Bill
But my, my understanding is nobody was real happy at how it ended. Am I wrong with that or no with a game of Thrones.

00:47:28.28
Anthony Dyer
With Breaker Brad, is that one you're talking about? Yeah, um honestly, man, when when that lady torched that whole village, like, you know, I thought that was pretty cool. Then the guy kills her at the end. It was sort of, i don't know, I guess that could be poetic. But, yeah, I wish she would have lived, to be honest with you.

00:47:43.25
Anthony Dyer
I'm not giving away too much.

00:47:44.02
Mike
written

00:47:44.89
Anthony Dyer
But I'm more of a – I like the Sopranos and the Wire, man. I've seen the Wire multiple times.

00:47:48.09
Bill
oh

00:47:48.93
Anthony Dyer
And, of course, the Sopranos a lot.

00:47:51.45
Bill
two might Two of my favorites. Yeah, The the Wire, i think is I think, was an underrated show for years.

00:47:53.30
Anthony Dyer
oh yeah.

00:47:58.72
Bill
And I mean fucking years. And then I started to see more. They were pushing it or something like that within the last couple of years. And I ended up watching it again. It was probably my third at least my third time through that series. The Sopranos, I think, I've watched...

00:48:13.70
Bill
God, probably four times through, you know, and great show. I mean, the same, same thing. I mean, that, that show made HBO, the wire was just something, I mean, out of a, on a different whole different level, but I watched that again recently in that show, Mike, and I think I've talked about a little bit on here, but, but I think that the, it's probably, what you, what would you think, Anthony?

00:48:28.21
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:48:32.40
Bill
Is that set probably early nineties? Cause they, to begin with, they have, they don't have cell phones to begin with. Am I right? And then they get,

00:48:38.20
Anthony Dyer
yeah i Yeah, I would say late 80s to early 90s because there's pagers involved and stuff like that.

00:48:43.03
Bill
Oh yeah, yeah.

00:48:43.65
Anthony Dyer
Yeah.

00:48:43.87
Bill
Pagers. And then they get to the whole, the whole burner phone market and all that stuff.

00:48:46.33
Anthony Dyer
Yeah.

00:48:46.91
Bill
So all this shit's new, you know, so whenever, whenever that was, but my point is it just, it's, you know, literally it's set in, you know, 30 plus years ago and it holds up really, really, really well, you know, so.

00:48:58.81
Anthony Dyer
Yeah, and there's a point, if you remember the show at the end where where Marlo is in in the jail cell where they finally got him right, and and chris is Chris was his top enforcer, you know, and basically Marlo finds out that Omar was was talking, you saying his name on the street, right, and and then Chris was like, well, you had a lot on your mind.

00:49:05.36
Bill
Right.

00:49:08.15
Bill
Right.

00:49:13.70
Bill
Right.

00:49:16.26
Anthony Dyer
We don't want to bother you with it. He's like, you know, he's like, what do you know about what I need on my mind, right? He's like, my name is my name, meaning that basically like, you know, the only thing you can chase in life is legacy, man. You know, like what we do in life echoes in eternity. And I always tell people, man, my my grandfather asked me one time, he's like, hey, do you remember like your your greatg great, great, great, great grandparents' names? And and I don't, who who does really, right? And the point is, is to like, basically what I tell my daughters to like, make sure you leave somewhat of ah a footprint on the world. You know, people going remember you for either being a shitbag or they're going to be, you know, or the person that was reliable, right? That that lended a helping hand and and paid it forward, you know, so.

00:49:54.65
Bill
right yeah

00:49:55.10
Mike
absolutely you know what and on that note i think that is a perfect time for us to take a quick break we'll be right back with more sober now mature after these words from our sponsors

00:50:16.46
Bill
All right, everyone. Welcome back. And you know what? Right there. That's another great example. I'm like, what a what a great place to stop.

00:50:21.34
Mike
absolutely

00:50:22.56
Bill
And then Mike jumps in. So that's what we do, Anthony.

00:50:23.86
Mike
e

00:50:24.88
Bill
Obviously, you can see we're not really taking a long break, but that's where we cut the episode. But yeah, we decided a long time ago that we don't edit. We did it out of laziness to begin with. Is that probably the right way to say it, Mike?

00:50:34.52
Mike
absolutely

00:50:37.14
Bill
Yeah, um either laziness or we didn't know what to do. I didn't know how to edit it. There was even in the beginning, I used to, um there might be a second of silence in the beginning at the end. I used to shave that off to try to make it more perfect. And then finally, I'm like, fuck it. It doesn't matter anymore. you know Because who cares? i mean it's It's one little second of silence. and then Mike, one time when we were gonna you know so we figured out that the only reason we started cutting the episode, and I almost forgot about this, is that the program we were using stopped accepting a larger file. Just like one the one week I go to upload this file, it's like, it's too big. I'm like what do it's too big? Yeah.

00:51:15.45
Mike
Well.

00:51:15.62
Bill
it's it's the same goddamn size as it was last week.

00:51:15.71
Mike
Right.

00:51:18.38
Bill
So I had to cut it. And I'm like, I don't know. I'm like, we should do something in the middle. And Mike's like, we should do a promo. I'm like, yeah. And then, so the next week he's like, and now a word from our sponsor. I'm like, I'm like, Oh fuck. You got to do that every time.

00:51:29.82
Mike
Right.

00:51:30.03
Bill
That's fucking, that's perfect. So.

00:51:32.34
Anthony Dyer
Well, i think I think America likes, like, uncut, unfiltered, right? Because you're getting it raw right in the moment, and there's no smoke screens, man.

00:51:38.39
Mike
well

00:51:38.46
Bill
All right.

00:51:40.66
Anthony Dyer
it's What you hear is what you see is what you get, you know?

00:51:43.03
Mike
right

00:51:43.45
Bill
Yeah, and it's it's just been it's been nice because, um I don't know, and we get, we become, it's so funny because we're we're so unpolished with everything that we do here. But I'll call myself, I'll call myself out. I become a fucking snob when I listen to and try to watch these video podcasts because, yeah,

00:52:03.90
Bill
I see people try to be polished and yeah i can I can hear the edits, you know, because, and I'm not, I'm not faulting them. They don't have the money, time or equipment, you know, to, to edit this stuff professionally and perfect, not even professionally to edit it perfectly.

00:52:17.01
Bill
And I don't expect anyone that that's at our level or even a little bit above us to have that, you know, second take thousands of dollars and man hours and whatever.

00:52:17.31
Anthony Dyer
Yeah.

00:52:24.65
Mike
Mm hmm.

00:52:24.69
Bill
Yeah.

00:52:24.97
Mike
All

00:52:25.24
Bill
You know, but then you add the video to it. And then if you cut a piece of video, then you're seeing like, you see this turn and and whatever. And I'm like, it looks terrible, you know, and Anthony and I were talking about that briefly, up you know, Zoom meetings and stuff like that.

00:52:35.31
Mike
right.

00:52:39.32
Bill
And I'm like, literally, that's what it that's what it looks like.

00:52:39.59
Mike
Mm hmm.

00:52:41.84
Bill
I had an I there was an article that I came across that.

00:52:41.98
Mike
Right.

00:52:45.12
Bill
Because Anthony, I do a lot of this research on this podcast stuff. So I mean, in my algorithm on social media and my newsfeed, I get all this shit about podcasting and all these different things, which is fine.

00:52:53.63
Anthony Dyer
Yeah.

00:52:54.60
Bill
It's been great. But there was a guy that was writing about video, Mike. Did I tell you that he said that somebody said that the the Joe Rogan um experience is not a podcast?

00:53:04.86
Bill
Did I tell you that?

00:53:05.05
Mike
Right.

00:53:06.01
Bill
Oh, okay. So the guy says just briefly on that, he goes, and I'm like, well what do you mean Of course it's a podcast, but what it is, he said, it's a digital, it's a digital presentation that actually sounds really good on audio.

00:53:17.50
Mike
Right.

00:53:18.46
Bill
And I'm like, I'm like, Oh, I get it.

00:53:18.53
Mike
Yeah.

00:53:20.22
Bill
So they took, it's like if if somebody had a well-produced TV show, for instance, um, you know, and a you didn't need to see everyone, you know, then it just translated into audio.

00:53:24.81
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:53:29.16
Bill
Whereas everyone else is trying to do the other way around. And that's kind of what we, what we push against Anthony is that we don't want to try to take this thing and make it something it's not. Cause it looks like shit. You know, we would rather just have it be the garbage that it is and just have it be audio garbage.

00:53:39.95
Anthony Dyer
gotcha

00:53:43.90
Anthony Dyer
yeah yeah i mean i think it's like uh i tell people and nobody really wants to listen to a a cookie cut cutter christian right like they want a christian who's been through some stuff man who's you know who who says it how it is you know and realizes that that jesus didn't hang out with a bunch of saints man not saints back then right there were some bruisers man and you know, some people who've been through some stuff, learned some lessons, man.

00:53:43.95
Mike
Hehehehehe.

00:54:05.58
Anthony Dyer
And that's, that's sort of, i like what you see is what you get, you know, cause I mean, look at, look, we can't even take a picture on Instagram without some filter popping up now. Right. Like we're so, we're so filtered right now.

00:54:14.52
Mike
right

00:54:16.44
Anthony Dyer
And it's honestly, it's sort of sickening in a way, you know, there's, we always forget there's a human side of everything, you know, and that's sort of what scares me with this AI stuff, man, is like, you know, it was, you want something that's authentic, man.

00:54:28.20
Anthony Dyer
And I think you take the emotion out when you start writing with AI and, and making pictures with AI. and And I'll be honest, I've done it, man. I didn't like it. You know, it it was stupid he looking back at it.

00:54:36.16
Bill
Right.

00:54:37.81
Anthony Dyer
But yeah, I think people want, you know, what they see is what they get, what they hear is what they get, you know.

00:54:44.38
Bill
Yeah, and you know, the the thing of it is i'm i'm in the I'm in the middle. um I'm using AI for some certain things that try to make my life a little bit easier. And quite honestly, it's with, I started using it for the first time, God, probably three years ago. i used it to assist my articles that I was writing.

00:55:02.84
Bill
And what I mean by that is I was writing sobriety articles and that sort of thing. So I would have this idea. And I would put the idea and I'm like, I want to write about, you know, this circumstance. Let's say it was, you know, fentanyl on the street. Where does it come from? And, you know, what's the what are the statistical whatever it is through this year and this year? And then what it would do is it would give me this thing and it would literally i either I would ask it to put it in outline form or i would take outlines of basically what it gave me and then I would write around it, you know. So what it did is it gave me bullet points and that's what I used. Um, because I didn't want it to take is people say, take my voice. You know, I don't want it to take my voice. I wanted to give me what it would give me as far as information is something that could have taken me an hour. I got in five minutes, you know, or in three minutes, whatever the case is.

00:55:53.21
Bill
And then with this stuff now, I've used it for partially for some of our descriptions, some of our episode descriptions. I go crazy with our, with our pictures. You know, I use it for images cause they're fun, you know, but you know, I don't want, don't want it to take over my life.

00:56:03.00
Anthony Dyer
Yeah. Yeah.

00:56:09.62
Bill
It's just like anything else. I want, I want things and I want people in my life that enhance my life that don't, that don't take it over, you know? And that's at least at this point, that's the the only way that I can look at AI.

00:56:21.73
Bill
It freaks me out a little bit because of the power that it has. And it freaks me out how quickly it can come back and give me information because I'm like, that's fucking weird, you know. um But then I'm like, it's kind of kind of cool too.

00:56:33.63
Bill
But I don't know who knows where it's going to go. But the the thing that I don't want to do is I don't I don't want it to take away from, you know, the i don't even want to call it. We don't have a mission.

00:56:43.90
Bill
Right, Mike. But I don't want it to take away from from the the core of who we are, which I don't think anything I've done with the images has done that.

00:56:45.15
Mike
Right.

00:56:51.33
Mike
Right.

00:56:51.45
Bill
and And it would never be my intention. And I know full well, if I get all all A.I. up and, you know, whatever it was and Mike would be like, come on, dude. Yeah.

00:56:59.93
Anthony Dyer
Yeah, and yeah and i now and I was ah taking a dig at any pictures you made, man.

00:57:00.12
Bill
You know, you're you're taking you're taking away from some shit here, you know. and um you know just But, I mean, some of the pictures, i'm I'm sure you probably shake your head at some of the pictures I put together. And, you know, other ones you're like, how that's kind of cool, you know, but I don't know.

00:57:14.99
Anthony Dyer
ah but Basically, what I guess what was trying to say is like um like someone asked me, they were like, hey, do you do you see air power like like like flying in general going towards like AI and like these unmanned vehicles, right?

00:57:26.38
Anthony Dyer
And And I'm like, yes, but like, I don't want it to, you know, like, um basically, like, you know, when flying, there's these moments where like, we call it true resource management, where like, there's something wrong, there's some a malfunction, EP, or whatever the case is, and you use the resources around you, you know, other people's experiences, you know, and it, It goes back to that whole, like, what's that?

00:57:42.68
Bill
Right.

00:57:46.64
Anthony Dyer
Perception versus perspective. You know, like, like my perception of this situation or or whatever it is, is meaningless, right? But getting other people's perspective and then add those all together and come collectively to get an answer, that's how winning is done, man.

00:58:00.94
Anthony Dyer
And and with those moments of flying, man, like, you know, you use that you you're using really the human knowledge emotion whatever you want call that to to overcome those obstacles and yes physically like ai like a a fighter jet that had no no person in it right could handle more g's physically and all that but in the end there would be another human that programmed that you know unmanned vehicle that you know what mean so you're only gonna be as it's only gonna be as good as that person that programmed it anyway so that's that's sort of my thoughts in the way we're we're going with with that stuff you know

00:58:25.46
Bill
Right.

00:58:25.60
Mike
Mm hmm. Right.

00:58:33.72
Bill
Well, and honestly, and I didn't think that you were, you were you know, coming after us as far as our pictures. When well you mentioned pictures, the first thing I thought about, and i I saw an article recently on, and I'm not very active on LinkedIn anymore because I don't really care about professionalism in a workplace anymore.

00:58:47.32
Anthony Dyer
yeah Oh,

00:58:48.59
Bill
I mean, there was a long time, for for a long time, that I was chasing that that whole corporate type of thing and trying to climb whatever ladder. And I've just, I've gotten too fucking old and I just want to be able to do something.

00:58:57.56
Anthony Dyer
yeah.

00:58:58.69
Bill
You know, i mean, both Mike and I are in our late 50s. We're old, you know, but we still got some life to us. And I just don't i don't want to have my my work life. i want I want to do what I need to do to make the money I need to do what I want to do is pretty much my my mindset.

00:59:12.89
Anthony Dyer
oh yeah

00:59:13.64
Bill
But I saw I saw this article on on LinkedIn that it was talking about, you know, people, um you know, people doing their professional headshots, you know, like AI versions.

00:59:13.79
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:59:23.48
Bill
And I'm like, say that's fucked up. You know, if it's whether it's a a professional picture, a dating app picture, you know, because I mean, I kick her around a dating apps. I can usually tell when a picture is fake.

00:59:33.80
Bill
You look at me like, what the hell, man?

00:59:34.49
Anthony Dyer
Yeah.

00:59:35.04
Bill
You know. And I don't, ah those are the things that I don't agree with, you know, and, but the same thing, that's not, that is not, you know, trying to enhance. Now, if you are completely, if you're really trying to, to find your, you know, your person on a dating app and you want, you want to put the best person forward.

00:59:51.88
Bill
Okay. It's a real picture. It's not filtered, anything like that. But if you need a little bit of help, whether it's a friend, whether it's AI or somebody else to write up a description to try to trap your man, then go ahead and do it, you know?

01:00:02.36
Anthony Dyer
yeah

01:00:03.16
Bill
Um, you know, but whatever the case is, whatever it is.

01:00:04.21
Anthony Dyer
Yeah.

01:00:07.54
Bill
see dudes do it too. I don't mean that, you know, for any, it could go both ways, but that part of it is the scary part. Then like you said, for these, you know, I mean, fighter jets and stuff like that.

01:00:17.81
Bill
So there's, there's unmanned drones out there right now. Correct. But not really fighter, theyre not fighter like planes right now, but there's the smaller drones that are bomb bombing drones.

01:00:26.78
Anthony Dyer
yeah Yeah, there's they like the MQ-9 Reaper, you know, and then there was ah that was after, you know, what used to be the M1, the Predator, you know. So, yeah, there's definitely, i don't know, the Navy has a couple of things, but there there's different things out there and stuff.

01:00:38.13
Anthony Dyer
and But it's just crazy, like, you know, to think about, you know, we're in this huge age of disclosure, right? Like all that stuff is coming out. And like, Ben, you ever thought about the fact that like, man, this big AI boom came right before all that, man.

01:00:51.41
Anthony Dyer
So i I don't know what to believe, my what my eyes are seeing half the time anyway, this day and age, you know.

01:00:55.99
Bill
Right. Yeah. And it's, it's tough being on Instagram is probably, well, I have no Instagram and Facebook and I don't spend a lot of time on Facebook, but more so on Instagram. But you know, every once in a while you'll see these things and it's like a, it's a, it's a rock slide.

01:01:10.09
Bill
It's a mud side. It's a, it's a really bad car accident. And you look at it and you're like, you're like, holy crap that.

01:01:12.78
Anthony Dyer
Yeah.

01:01:15.25
Bill
And then you you read the description. It's like, this was created with, and I'm like, Jesus, I'm But that's the same thing you really have to look at. You know, like i um I follow, you know, some sometimes whether it's a sports team or something like that that I'll follow.

01:01:28.23
Bill
Then you look and you see an article about, you know, so-and-so, you know, got traded or this is what they're doing. I'm like, I look at where it's from and like, eh. Then I'll do a Google search and at least 30% of the time it's bullshit.

01:01:40.23
Bill
You know, somebody just posted something saying that blah, blah, yeah.

01:01:40.55
Mike
Mm hmm.

01:01:40.82
Anthony Dyer
yeah

01:01:42.59
Mike
Clickbait.

01:01:44.17
Bill
You know, that that blah, blah, blah from the team or a coach or or an owner or whatever did this. And I'm like, Jesus Christ, because you you just said it, Anthony, you don't know what your eyes are seeing these days.

01:01:54.61
Bill
So that in itself, that's kind of I mean, not even kind of that's a true pain in the ass trying to figure out. It's hard enough trying to figure out um what news is. what Well, what is even news anymore?

01:02:05.13
Bill
Because I don't even know.

01:02:05.43
Anthony Dyer
Oh yeah, man.

01:02:05.73
Bill
I don't even know what that is.

01:02:06.03
Anthony Dyer
it's

01:02:06.89
Bill
But on top of it, to figure out just, you know, scrolling through, you know, Instagram and you're like, I don't even know what what's real in here, you know?

01:02:15.39
Mike
Right.

01:02:15.42
Anthony Dyer
Yeah, so was it training Dave and Denzel? He's trying to read his newspaper, and then the new recruits like bother him or whatever. He's like, you see this? He's like, this is 90% bullshit, right? He's like, there's 10% truth in here, but that 90% is my entertainment, you know?

01:02:29.33
Anthony Dyer
And we're so drawn to like what what entertains us, you know?

01:02:29.72
Mike
right

01:02:32.29
Anthony Dyer
and that Really, it's the same sort of thing as far as like living fast, chasing drugs and alcohol. It's all on the same gamut, you really think about it, you know?

01:02:40.22
Bill
Right. So, so tell us a dig into the book. I mean, tell us, ah I guess, well, first of all, you know, a brief overview for everyone as far as what it is, where, where everyone can find it. I mean, I've got, I've got the title and everything in the description, but um you know, I can put a link to wherever is the, I don't know, the best place that you want to find it, but you know, tell people about the book and, and just how you came about writing it.

01:03:04.86
Anthony Dyer
Yeah, thank you. So it's called a moon child. It's the roots and wings of a U.S. Air Force combat special missions aviator. And the roots part meaning, ah you know, growing up, it's sort of these ah these morals, these lessons that I was was taught growing up from my family and friends in Appalachia. But I always wanted more, you know. I think it's important to know, you know, where you came from. But to me, what's more important is where I'm going, you know. And that's where the Air Force gave me wings. And I i talk about sacrifice and, you know, and and perseverance a lot, you know. and probably the darkest moments of my life are in the book, you know, and I tell people in that life, you know, and especially in like on the rescue, when i was in rescue side of things, like you see the worst possible thing that could could happen to someone, you know, and on that day, June 8, 2018, we saw the best side of combat search and rescue, meaning we saved five Americans, right, but one eagle, one American.

01:03:51.27
Anthony Dyer
When he got on the operating table, passed away, unfortunately. And, you know, so that that that stuck with me. And ah ironically enough, one of the Air Force core values is service before self. And I truly did not know to what that those words meant till that day. You know, and that someone's brother, someone's son, someone's friend. that paid for our freedom you know and so i try to tell people like every veteran every first responder these these uncommon jobs are very normal men and women doing these very uncommon things and and i would say the two whys behind the book is to to show the rest of america hey this is what goes on when you're sleeping and the the most you know important part is to like if someone reads this book if one person reads the book we talked about the 22 a day earlier if and they get help and that's that's a blessing that's a win and that's what it is in a nutshell man

01:04:35.57
Bill
Right. So is it, um I mean, I'm, I'm, I guess I'm guessing here, but available anywhere that you can buy books or is there one in particular place that, that is more active or, or what do you, what do you prefer as far as that?

01:04:47.80
Anthony Dyer
Yeah, no problem. So Amazon ah is where I do most of my sales from what the numbers are showing anyway. But yeah, Amazon, Barnes & Noble, if you just look up Moonshot by Anthony Dyer on Google, it'll, all the different sites, you know, Books A Million, for example, and then Trademarker Media, my publisher, Robbie Grayson, has ah basically the the country and you click the flag and it'll take you to the Amazon link there as well.

01:05:08.25
Bill
Okay. Yeah. And I, yeah I know I have the, obviously in the promotion, I had the the book title, but I didn't really have a a mention of Amazon, but I, you know, i think that, I mean, most people these days, I think know how to use Google.

01:05:19.91
Bill
So if they want to, if they want to find a book, I mean, I, I would hope, you know, that people, people are listening to something like this.

01:05:20.79
Mike
Hehehehehe.

01:05:21.46
Anthony Dyer
Yeah. yeah

01:05:25.71
Bill
If people can find a podcast and actually see where things are written down about it, that hopefully they know where to look at it. But, um So you went through, i guess, well, let me step back a little bit.

01:05:36.12
Bill
What motivated you to to write the book? Just kind of getting it out there letting people know what's what? Or did you was this a long process? you know Or just one day you're like, I i don't care, man. I'm writing a book and this is what it's going to be about.

01:05:48.15
Anthony Dyer
So I'd had a lot of my my papers that I'd wrote on for my prolonged exposure therapy. And, um you know, I'm writing these stories, the the main part of the story over and over and over. And, ah you know, and I got out and some time had went by and um and I was like, you know what, like, instead of drinking, man, as cliche as that sounds, going to start writing, man.

01:06:04.86
Anthony Dyer
So every time I had that, and we know that urge, right, that we all still have very much.

01:06:07.74
Bill
right

01:06:08.74
Anthony Dyer
So I somehow was able to pick up a ah pen and paper and on my nightstand, I wake up in the morning and try to make sense of all this and two decades of war and all these uncommon things. Right. And and I was like, you know what, maybe I can't pay it forward. Maybe like, like I said, even pay it backwards in this case. And if someone gets, gets help from reading the book, man, and that's a win. That's a blessing, you know?

01:06:29.16
Bill
Right. Well, that's, and that's a good point too, is that, I mean, being able to pull it from, and I didn't think about that. So when you were going through that, um all that therapy and stuff like that, all the things you wrote down, that was part of the, part of the things that made it into the book.

01:06:42.30
Anthony Dyer
Yeah, 100%. Yeah, like the the cast of back part is in there. And ah there's a couple of different gunship missions and stuff like that. And, you know, it starts off basically this very small, you know, this close knit town that I grew up in. And then just, you know, a guy that's just this one or more wanted to see the world, man, and and try to, you know, what is this brief motor life, if not the pursuit of legacy, you know, at least somewhat of a remembrance of hopefully a person that helped one day, you know.

01:07:06.52
Bill
Right. And then um did you, did you say you ended up getting a publisher?

01:07:12.15
Anthony Dyer
I did, yeah. It was a trademark of media, Robbie Grayson. and and a But even before that, so i at least what I had thought it was enough for a book, it really wasn't. It was a very short read anyway, man, but ah probably take you two hours.

01:07:23.01
Bill
Right.

01:07:24.20
Anthony Dyer
But i reached out to a war journalist named Holly McKay. and um on linkedin of all things and then uh sent the message out a few minutes later i was actually in walmart i got the message back and i was excited and scheduled a phone call interview type thing and then what it was was there was a word document back and forth where there you know she did a really good job of like you know drawing those those hard things to say out i mean the the questions right and explaining like what all these different sort of acronyms in the military man all this different stuff you know and Helping me paint that picture with these words, right giving them teeth. And Mincy recommended Robbie Grayson, which was the publisher. who i look at that as like the hardware of the book. Your your cover, your your spacing, all all the nit and gritty stuff of the of that stuff, the artwork on it.

01:08:06.91
Bill
Right. So, that yeah, that's that's kind of fun. I mean, i I've done a little bit of that. I had a years ago, the some of the i did business writings and put them into some books. And then I did a ah travel one just because it took it took me so long.

01:08:21.20
Bill
And I do some traveling with Airbnb travels and that sort of thing. but um, it took me so long to, to locate and figure out what I was doing or how I could do the things I wanted to do that.

01:08:33.32
Bill
I'm like, there's gotta be other people out there, you know, that, you know, that don't know what they're doing and hopefully, you know, this would help.

01:08:35.74
Mike
Right?

01:08:39.90
Bill
And quite honestly, I mean, I, I did with everything that I've done with these, these really short books and things that I've done. I just, I self-published, I did it all on my own. I did my own cover work and, It's easy if you get into it.

01:08:51.30
Bill
I mean, these days, especially the last one I did was far more, I guess, if you want to call it plug and play than the than the other ones, you know, from some years ago. But, you know, I never i never went out to a publisher because I'm like, I don't know.

01:09:03.62
Bill
It was it was just one of those things. I'm like, you know what? here This is what this is. I'm just going to put it all together. I'm going to see what happens. Kind of like what we did with this, right, Mike? You know, throw throw throw this shit against the wall and see if it sticks.

01:09:12.70
Mike
Right.

01:09:14.87
Anthony Dyer
Yeah.

01:09:15.18
Bill
And I have not, quite honestly, I haven't sold that many, that many books of the, the travel one or any of them, you know, but it was a, to begin with, it was a, it's kind of a life goal for me.

01:09:25.24
Bill
The first one that I did, you know, and then just, I, I enjoy writing. I, I, I actually really enjoyed the process, even though it's a lot of work, you know, um But um I really enjoyed enjoyed the process.

01:09:33.91
Anthony Dyer
oh yeah.

01:09:37.76
Bill
so So with you, though, so you had individuals that didn't necessarily know your language necessarily when it comes to military and all that stuff. But so you had the basics and then they would just what kind of like dig in a little bit more to try to figure out what you were saying and help you expand on it?

01:09:52.66
Bill
Or how did that work?

01:09:53.82
Anthony Dyer
Yeah, I mean, it was a lot of things like, you know, the military has a lot of acronyms. So like spelling, something simple, spelling those out. So that's like, you know, plain common English so people could understand what you're trying to say. and then also like sort sort of getting into like the the five senses of, you know, the fog of war and stuff like that.

01:10:04.51
Bill
Right.

01:10:10.34
Anthony Dyer
Just just pulling those those things that are hard to say. And, you know, and I'm not this huge big time, you know, you know, big publishing company type of author, man. But at the same time, I found out like through the feedback and the reviews and people i used to fly with even on like Amazon, like it's the book that'll take you through like every emotion in two hours, right?

01:10:28.15
Anthony Dyer
A lot of dick and fart jokes there, man, some funny parts. And then there's...

01:10:30.65
Bill
ah

01:10:31.58
Anthony Dyer
lot of the darkest moments of my life in there, man. And, and what I found out that, that worked for me. And like I said, i'm no huge accomplishment or not, but like the words you're most afraid to say, man, like just throw them on paper and and you'll be amazed how far those words are traveled, man.

01:10:46.26
Anthony Dyer
So everybody has a story, man.

01:10:47.13
Mike
Mm-hmm.

01:10:48.02
Anthony Dyer
So I encourage everyone to to tell that story and without storytellers and and books, right. You know, this actual physical book you can hold in your hand, right. Like these stories die in the sand, man. And I don't want to see that happen.

01:10:58.74
Anthony Dyer
And, you know, again, with all the other stuff coming out these days. So,

01:11:02.80
Bill
Right. Yes. And you made it you made a good point before and i almost forgot until you just said that. But um you had said that, you know obviously with, ah you know, the older we get and I mean, basically leaving some sort of whatever you want to call it, um you know, a footprint I like rather than the term legacy, for instance.

01:11:18.17
Bill
But.

01:11:18.30
Anthony Dyer
Yeah.

01:11:18.88
Bill
Because legacy makes me makes me sound far important they're more important than I think that I am. Or maybe it is as important as I is i think that I am, but I shouldn't.

01:11:23.17
Anthony Dyer
Gotcha. Yeah. Yeah.

01:11:27.12
Bill
But you know leaving a footprint, and you know i mean Mike and I have talked about that too. you know in the The cool part is is that all said and done, you know I don't think that I've done anything spectacular in this in this lifetime.

01:11:39.22
Bill
okay i mean When I really look at it's like, okay, one... but Pick out a couple of things that are kind of cool, and whatever. i mean, i've got I've got two great kids. you know i but Sobriety clearly you know the the biggest accomplishment.

01:11:51.79
Bill
But then it goes further than if I really think about it, I'm like, ah you know so my sobriety is my biggest thing. But but what have I done in sobriety? Yeah.

01:11:59.58
Anthony Dyer
yeah.

01:11:59.71
Bill
You know, what have I done? who Whose lives have I touched? um What have i what have i been able to become, you know, for myself and in those people around me for those kids, repairing relationships, the the friendships that I have, repairing relationships with family?

01:12:14.81
Bill
You know, and Mike and I talk about this all the time, and I think, Anthony, you can probably relate. We talk about this this ripple effect all the time. You know, some people call it the butterfly effect. It's the same concept.

01:12:24.97
Bill
But if you if you throw a rock into ah into a pond, you know, or into any area of water, it's going to send ripples. Okay. Now, the only difference is, was that a good rock?

01:12:33.52
Anthony Dyer
Oh, Yeah.

01:12:35.86
Bill
Yeah. Or was it a bad rock? You know, because it doesn't matter if you if you are fucking up your life, you're sending ripples and you're fucking up other people's lives.

01:12:38.18
Mike
Mm-hmm.

01:12:45.32
Bill
If you're if you're doing good, you're sending ripples.

01:12:45.42
Mike
Right.

01:12:48.72
Bill
And whether or not it makes other people's lives better, it sure as hell not going to make them worse. And maybe just maybe it can help them. Or at least they look at you and they're like, oh, OK, well, you're he's not this much of a piece of shit as he used to be.

01:13:02.01
Bill
And I can see he's doing a couple of good things, you know.

01:13:02.30
Mike
Mm-hmm.

01:13:05.30
Anthony Dyer
Yeah, you know, I think there's just something. I mean, that's an awesome metaphor, man. Honestly, that's beautiful, man. appreciate that one. But, yeah, I think if I was to prioritize, like, my what I want most out of life, you know, of course there's, like, you know, first of all is being the best father I could be, you know.

01:13:20.68
Anthony Dyer
And, you know, I've been called many things, like, throughout the years, you know, Sergeant, Arrow Gunner, SMA, you know, Uncle Tito, right. But the the most important thing that I was ever called, called sign, was my daughter called me Dad.

01:13:27.42
Mike
Hmm.

01:13:32.70
Bill
Right. Right.

01:13:34.36
Anthony Dyer
ah Yeah, I mean, so it's like, you know, that is, you know, your seeds is what's going to live on, you know, and how your kids remember you, not not not necessarily like, you know, check my ego here, but it's like, not as huge this legacy this, you know, everybody knows the name, but basically, like, my kids remember me for a guy who tried a guy who fell down seven times and got up eight.

01:13:55.61
Anthony Dyer
And a guy who didn't mind helping other people, man, because really, again, for those I love, I'll sacrifice, you know,

01:13:58.21
Mike
Mm-hmm.

01:14:01.59
Mike
Right. Yeah, like we say on here all the time, man, just trying to make our little corner of the world a better place.

01:14:08.18
Anthony Dyer
Oh yeah, yeah, 100%.

01:14:08.28
Mike
that's That's all it is. That's all it is, man. You know, I'm not going to change the world. I'm not going to make, you know, but just this little section that I'm in, I'm going to make it a little bit better than it was yesterday. That's all.

01:14:19.69
Anthony Dyer
that's what That's what being human is, right?

01:14:21.46
Mike
Right. Right.

01:14:22.10
Bill
Yeah, yeah, exactly. and And that's the thing that, I mean, what ah what a whole different um you know different way to live. And you know the other the thing we talk about a lot is you know that, I mean, life still happens and life on life terms and all those all those sayings. you know And you know what what Mike always all he says is, you know okay, we've been through all the bad shit and all the all the you know maybe evil stuff or whatever's going on in the world. But but right now at at this moment, and it's it's always funny, every time we start to talk about this, I tend to be sitting the same way.

01:14:50.49
Mike
susan

01:14:50.52
Bill
You know, i don't have ah I don't have a chair that, I've got an office chair, but I don't have a chair that leans back. But I'm still kind of slid down to my chair a little bit. My arms are up on the armrest. And I'm just kind of kicked back and relaxed, you know.

01:15:01.61
Bill
and And that's usually how I am when when we're doing these episodes, especially when we have a guest.

01:15:01.66
Anthony Dyer
Yeah.

01:15:06.69
Bill
Because I get to sit here and we get to sit here and, and you know, hang out and and shoot the shit with somebody that we don't know. But now we do, you know, hear all these stories and, you know, life's pretty good.

01:15:17.74
Bill
So all this other garbage that's happening out there right at the moment, it's not happening right now.

01:15:18.52
Mike
Mm hmm.

01:15:21.82
Bill
And that's what I was getting to. That's what Mike always says. okay All these things.

01:15:24.23
Mike
Yeah.

01:15:24.98
Bill
Is it happening to you right now? No, we're having we're having a great time with our friend Anthony from New Mexico.

01:15:27.29
Mike
Yeah.

01:15:30.27
Bill
Yeah.

01:15:30.46
Mike
Right.

01:15:30.70
Bill
You know, and I mean, what what the fuck more can we ask for, you know, and in these in these moments and, you know, being living with the moment and, you life's going to happen tomorrow and the next day and even, you know, two, three minutes from now, life's going to happen.

01:15:42.82
Bill
But what the hell? what are you going to do? All you can do is, you know, keep moving forward, right?

01:15:44.50
Anthony Dyer
Yeah, man. that's that's That's perfectly put, man. You guys have ever seen Charlie Whistles

01:15:51.19
Bill
um i got did i I know of the movie, but I don't think I, I don't know if I've ever watched it.

01:15:56.50
Mike
I know I saw it, but I was drinking at the time. Mm-hmm.

01:16:00.25
Anthony Dyer
well Yeah, there's there's a lot of that in that movie too, but yeah a lot of fun stuff.

01:16:01.34
Bill
Okay. yeah

01:16:03.57
Anthony Dyer
But but Charlie Wilson's this congressman, and um you know there's this CIA gate got guy named ah Gus, I believe it was. And this guy, you know basically, he took down a lot of Russians with the the weapons that he got the people in Afghanistan.

01:16:16.01
Anthony Dyer
This was way before 9-11 and all that. And at the end of that that movie, you know <unk>s Gus is talking to Charlie Wilson, the congressman, and basically learning how to say, we'll see. you know That's the the beauty of life. you know And he tells this parable, like there's this little boy On his 14th birthday, he gets a horse, right?

01:16:32.92
Anthony Dyer
And everybody in the village says, oh, how wonderful. The boy got a horse. And the Zen master says, we'll see.

01:16:37.02
Mike
you

01:16:39.10
Anthony Dyer
Two years later, the boy falls off this horse, breaks his leg, right? And everyone in the village says, oh, how terrible.

01:16:42.18
Bill
Eh.

01:16:44.09
Anthony Dyer
And the Zen master says, we'll see. And this big war breaks out, right? Like in the parable. And, um you know, all the young men had to go fight, often fight, except for the boy, because his legs were all messed up at that point.

01:16:56.18
Anthony Dyer
And everybody in the village says, how wonderful. You know, and the Zen master said, we'll see, you know, meaning this parable, like it works both ways. Like, yes, it's a a reminder to maintain caution and perspective. But again, today's disaster might mean, you know, be the very thing that saves you tomorrow.

01:17:11.92
Mike
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

01:17:12.90
Bill
Right. Yeah. And, you know, we we were just what we we were just talking about, you know, faith and hope and all those sort of things, I think, in last week's episode, which it comes up quite a bit. And you mentioned, I think you mentioned the word hope ah earlier in the the episode, Anthony.

01:17:22.14
Anthony Dyer
Yeah.

01:17:25.84
Bill
And that's the thing that, um you know, I mean, there there's a certain point regardless of, and neither Mike or i are, let's we're not mainstream. We're not in a mainstream religion or anything like that. we're not We're not those guys, you know, but we still, even not being those guys, you know, can still have faith and can still have hope.

01:17:41.70
Bill
And sometimes Michael just say kind of sarcastically, he goes, yeah, well, I hope this goes this way. it it It probably won't, but I can hope that it does.

01:17:46.66
Anthony Dyer
Yeah.

01:17:49.37
Mike
Right.

01:17:49.67
Bill
You know, the the faith too, right, Mike?

01:17:49.80
Anthony Dyer
Yeah.

01:17:52.41
Bill
mean, faith is something that you just, you got to have a little bit of it, right?

01:17:52.50
Mike
Yep.

01:17:55.26
Mike
Yeah. I have faith that if I continue to do the right thing, eventually it's all going to work out okay.

01:18:01.50
Anthony Dyer
Yeah, yeah, man. And faith is, you know, I've thought about this long and hard when I was in my darkest moments, man, where like, you know, I had this thing in my mind where like we die, right? And then I'm six feet under and I'm in this, you know, pinewood box and it's dark and I see nothing and there's I'm worm food at that point, you know?

01:18:18.94
Anthony Dyer
And the whole basis of my faith is is hope. You know, I have to believe that, you know, you know i'm I'm a Christian by faith and that there is an afterlife and that, you know, that I'm going to get to get to heaven, man, because otherwise, like I get in a very dark, literally dark place when I start thinking like this is it.

01:18:36.00
Anthony Dyer
Right. And, you know, I've even went down that rabbit hole where you like, so you know, researching your death experiences and there's all these different commonalities and stuff.

01:18:37.09
Mike
Mm-hmm.

01:18:41.82
Bill
yeah

01:18:43.72
Anthony Dyer
But yeah, that's that's what faith is, is faith is hoping again.

01:18:44.22
Bill
All right.

01:18:47.20
Anthony Dyer
You know, hope is a fragile thing and unless you let it be. And that's where the the choosing not to pick up that bottle for me and or to to do this and that pill, you know, it's it's all about hope, you know.

01:18:59.16
Mike
okay

01:18:59.93
Bill
Right. Yeah. And you know, the, the thing that is to kind of get back to the, you know, again, the kids in the, the, the whole, or the kids in the, yeah you know, obviously us disappointing them and in that sort of thing. And you know, like Mike had said, when you, when you talked about the, you know, falling off the horse, Anthony, and then, That's the thing, you know, you build up.

01:19:14.72
Anthony Dyer
Yeah. Yeah.

01:19:16.63
Bill
So, you know, and i mean we talk about it now, you you build up that trust. It doesn't matter whether it was, you know, 16 months or, you know, whether it's been 16 years, it's taken us and we we've been on, you know, good footing with our family and in our kids and our friends for a long time.

01:19:29.44
Mike
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

01:19:31.95
Bill
You know, I mean, don't don't get it either one of one of us wrong. I mean, it took it takes work to to regain that stuff because we both fucked a lot of people, you know, or fucked up a lot of people.

01:19:37.98
Mike
Mm-hmm.

01:19:41.06
Bill
You know, but, you know, so the years and years and years and in continuous work, you know, to this day, you know, to be good people, just because we were good people yesterday doesn't mean that that, you know, we're fine to treat somebody like shit today.

01:19:53.27
Bill
But that can be taken away. It's not going to take 16 years to lose it. It's going to take about 16 seconds, you know.

01:19:59.88
Mike
Out.

01:20:00.15
Bill
And all we have to do is, you know, one drink, one drug, whatever the case is, in all those years, all this work that we did, you know, is literally it's gone, you know, and, you know, you get to build that back up again.

01:20:11.42
Anthony Dyer
Oh, yeah.

01:20:14.39
Bill
um man and and Mike, you say it all the time. You don't get the calories, you know.

01:20:18.26
Mike
No, I don't.

01:20:18.36
Bill
Yeah.

01:20:18.62
Anthony Dyer
Yeah, yeah. yeah

01:20:20.02
Bill
And, and you know, one of one of the things, Anthony, I have a, uh, I have a sobriety counter and I know there's, and I don't know how much you pay attention all this stuff on Instagram or whatever. And I don't mean us. I mean, in generally in the recovery community, there's a lot of different schools of thought with, with time, you know, and some people are, are that, you know, if you got all you have is today, which we're, of you know, we're one day at a time people, we, we get all that, you know, but people are like, I don't, I don't care how live and sober if, you know, I, i got I've roughly been sober for this.

01:20:40.06
Mike
Mm-hmm. All

01:20:48.52
Bill
Some people don't know sobriety days. Some people do. Some people think it's a waste of time. Some people think it's harmful to count days. I look at my sobriety counter every day. and I've done it for years.

01:20:59.76
Bill
I think I can't remember when I got the sobriety counter, but probably... six or seven months. It was in the first year. We were at the Cecilia when I got it because quick side note, Anthony, at that time, um, I had my, my first like a smartphone and I'm, I'm going through and I'm, I'm buying 99 cent games and 99 cent songs, like, like a fucking, you know, whore on payday, you know, or ah whatever on payday.

01:21:07.51
Mike
right.

01:21:23.51
Bill
And I'm, I'm just all the time. I'm spending all this fucking money. And then I'm like, I'd like a new, I'd like a sobriety counter. So I come to this one, that's actually It's actually, it's the big book, okay? So it's a big book of Alcoholics Anonymous in electronic form that lines up exactly what the pages of the real big book, the fourth edition.

01:21:39.37
Bill
So it has value and worth to it, right?

01:21:42.19
Anthony Dyer
Yeah.

01:21:42.52
Bill
But it was $6 or maybe $8. Let's call it okay?

01:21:48.23
Mike
Hmm.

01:21:48.41
Bill
A one-time payment, not $8 a month, a year, or $8 every five years. $8 one-time payment. And my words at that point were, fuck that. I'm not spending $8 on an app.

01:21:58.65
Mike
Hmm. Hmm.

01:21:59.58
Bill
Okay. and And I told Mike that. He kind of looked at me and I'm like, I'm like, Jesus Christ, what the fuck am I doing? You know? Because again, I'm, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm angry birds and all these other stupid fucking games and songs, which I mean, I love music, you know, but I spent the $8 and to this day, I still have that app.

01:22:12.64
Anthony Dyer
Oh, yeah.

01:22:15.34
Bill
Okay. And with, ah with my one time payment, you know, 15 plus years ago. Okay. But I look at it every single day for two reasons in it, cause it has the days, hours, all this sort of thing. But I look at the days because I look at, you know, wow, that's a lot of days.

01:22:28.99
Bill
And I I've done a lot of work, you know, to get every one of those days I've worked for. So that's number one. But I also look at those days. So I'm like, that's what I had to lose. You know, I've got all those days to lose in the the scariest moment I've ever had my sobriety.

01:22:38.17
Mike
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

01:22:38.71
Anthony Dyer
ah yeah

01:22:43.74
Bill
and And I mean, this was the first time that I upgraded my phone after I had that app, because, you know, you got resign, sign into apps and stuff like that again when you get a new phone. um And I went back into my app and I was at that point, I think I was a year and a couple of months sober and it said zero.

01:23:01.59
Bill
And I'm like, I'm like, yeah.

01:23:03.34
Anthony Dyer
Oh, man.

01:23:04.44
Bill
And all it was is that I didn't put, you know, I had to re-sign into the app and put my sobriety date back in here, in there. But um it freaked me out. And I'm like, I vo i'm like i'd never want, you know, fuck the zero, man. I don't want to look at that again.

01:23:17.05
Bill
You know, but it's it's a motivator for me. You know, that's why I do it. I don't care if other people look at their time, but I do. You know, and it's it's that that's the reason why. And it's anything, you know, it's whatever, whatever it takes to get all of us, you know, through that day and whatever it takes for you, for the three of us and anyone out there that's listening to, to not drink or use today and not, not hurt somebody today.

01:23:36.93
Bill
I mean, Hey, it's a, it's a good day if we can, if we could do that or not do that, depending on how you look at it.

01:23:40.49
Mike
Mm-hmm.

01:23:42.49
Anthony Dyer
Yeah, I think that's the the only time we we should ever look back to see how far we've come, right? And that's, ah you know, i know some people, they have the the coin and the date and everything like that. And, you know, you me, man, i like I agree with that, you know, but again, I have i have to face the the two dates, you know, where i I once when I first had this revelation and I had the conversation with my wife and everything, and and there's the one where,

01:23:50.89
Bill
Hmm.

01:24:03.26
Anthony Dyer
you know, that was truly rock bottom where I broke those promises to everyone I loved, you know, and what's the last step where you you know you have to to apologize in some way, shape or form to everyone you've you've hurt in the past.

01:24:07.91
Bill
Mm-hmm.

01:24:12.94
Anthony Dyer
And I've hurt a lot of people, that you know, and things like that. and But what hurt me the most was the fact that I was able to give up, you know, my pride and joy, my girl and and and my wife, you know, over over a drop of alcohol.

01:24:26.46
Anthony Dyer
Like that that is a a very damning feeling, man. You know I mean

01:24:30.69
Bill
Right. Yeah. and And that's the thing. I mean, that's the the one the one thing that we talk about a lot is the fact that, you know, I mean, it it takes it takes a lot of fucking work to, you know, to get to where you know we are, you know, and to get to where we're, you know, I and I'll say I'll say comfortable, you know, to an extent, but to get to where, you know, this this whole sobriety thing becomes part of our life rather than just daily work.

01:24:51.97
Bill
It's still daily work, but it doesn't seem as bad, you know. And I mean, I was liking it to, you know, kind of getting onto a highway, shipping a plane, take it off. Think about the amount of power and fuel it takes to get a plane off the ground, you know, but I mean.

01:25:02.81
Anthony Dyer
Yeah, and here's one for you. Yeah, and I was going to say, man, that leads to my favorite quote ever, man. And like all these bad things happen to us every day, right? And all these different, this drag and stuff like that, that brings us down, you know, and people forget that an aircraft takes off against the wind, not with it.

01:25:17.86
Anthony Dyer
You can't have that lift without some drag, you know, you can't have that elevation oftentimes without some isolation first, right?

01:25:18.30
Bill
Right.

01:25:23.96
Anthony Dyer
And just to make those those conscious decisions to to like, hey, man, like i I can look at myself in the mirror and today say, hey, like I got, yeah, I fell off that horse again.

01:25:24.39
Mike
Mm

01:25:24.43
Bill
Right.

01:25:32.93
Anthony Dyer
Or I could say, hey, man, I helped somebody get back on that horse, you know. So I think helping in a way is healing too, you know.

01:25:36.63
Mike
Right.

01:25:39.42
Bill
Oh God. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. But yeah, that's a good point. And I, and I, I've heard that I've heard that before. And I mean, it it is, it's one of those things that, you know, that even though in, in once again, one of the things we talk about, even though what we do these days, you know, or, you know, today, you know, may from, from the outside kind of look, look rather easy as far as what, you know, maybe what, Mike and I or anyone that's got a little bit of time under their belts, you know, make it look easy.

01:26:02.93
Bill
Anyone, you know, but people don't ask. They're like, well, how did you get here? You know, and what did you have to do and who did you fuck over to begin with to even be in this position?

01:26:07.10
Mike
Right.

01:26:11.90
Bill
And how did you get out of that? You know, and all these all these things and these, you know, fences you had to bend and all those different things. You know, it's what the point is, is to get to a point where, you know, like like you said, Anthony, you know, your your daughter and your wife and those that you love and care about, and even even ourselves.

01:26:28.84
Bill
You know, we could we can all look those people in the faces. We can look ourselves in the mirror and we could actually be happy what we see and and not, you know, not be disgusted at what what's looking back at us, you know.

01:26:38.29
Mike
Mm-hmm.

01:26:39.45
Bill
And again, for other people, they can be disgusted and we can be disgusted with ourselves. So, you know, it takes work.

01:26:43.79
Anthony Dyer
yeah

01:26:44.29
Bill
But, man, it's it ends up being worth it for sure.

01:26:47.61
Anthony Dyer
oh yeah i think the biggest thing is as we all know alcohol and drugs they took away our time right and not just time from from us and it's time from our family you know and you know that that's the most precious thing you could ever give a kid is is one believe in them as two is your time you know

01:26:56.18
Mike
Right.

01:26:56.44
Bill
Yep.

01:27:01.88
Bill
Right. So Anthony, you know, i guess just to get to the point of, of wrapping up here, what, what did we, or did we, did we miss anything? What did we miss? What else do you want to tell people? Anything else? ah Maybe tell them the name of the book again, where they can find it. You know, take a, take a couple of minutes if you need to, and just, again, what did we miss? What do you want to to close out with and let people know about the book again?

01:27:24.73
Anthony Dyer
Yeah, again, thanks, you guys, for having me, man. I appreciate it And, ah you know, sobriety is a journey, man. It's a marathon, not a sprint, as as we all know. And I think we're all going to get there, man, with with some hope, right? And, you know, the the moon the book's called Moonchild and ah the Roots Wings of a U.S. Air Force Combat Specialist Aviator can be found on Amazon, Barnes & Noble, and and Trademarker Media. And if ah if you need my Instagram handle, it's all lowercase, Marco underscore Brolo 21.

01:27:51.84
Bill
Okay, perfect. And i will have ah I will have all of that.

01:27:53.13
Mike
Cool.

01:27:55.04
Bill
you know Basically, I'll recopy the information you know that I had in the the promos for the week, which but I'll make a note on there that you know obviously you could be found on Amazon. But yeah, I mean, hop on hop on Instagram.

01:28:06.54
Bill
It's got his handle and everything on there. And I mean, it's been it's been great. Mike's going to close this out. but I'll remind you twice. Here's the first reminder. Don't hang up. Okay, Anthony?

01:28:15.32
Anthony Dyer
Copy.

01:28:15.70
Mike
he

01:28:15.77
Anthony Dyer
Yeah.

01:28:16.82
Bill
Is Mike's.

01:28:17.34
Anthony Dyer
No fast No fast hands in the cup, but I got it man.

01:28:18.81
Bill
Yeah. Mike's going to close us out. We're going talk for a minute after that, close out the podcast, but then still don't hang up yet. Okay. So. yeah

01:28:26.10
Mike
yeah All right. Well, thank you everyone for listening to yet another episode of Sober Not Mature. As always, be kind to each other. be good to each other. go out and do something nice for somebody else this week and don't tell anybody you did it. We want to thank Anthony for his service and his time this evening. It was a hell of a good time. And now, from the bottom of my heart to the depths of my soul, from the beginning of time until the ends of the earth,

01:28:54.78
Mike
always and eternally. Fuck you Now it's time, kids. It's time for you to fuck off. Then keep fucking off. Keep fucking off till you get to a gate with the sign on it saying, you cannot fuck off past here.

01:29:09.46
Mike
Climb over that gate. Dream the impossible dream and keep fucking off forever.

01:29:15.86
Bill
yeah that's our That's our fun way of kicking things kicking things out of here.

01:29:20.61
Anthony Dyer
I was ready to rip the paint off the walls, man. I'm going to go to the gas station to buy somebody to fuck off just for the hell of a minute.

01:29:23.48
Mike
Yeah.

01:29:23.64
Bill
yeah

01:29:28.32
Mike
Hey. Hey. Hey.

01:29:29.18
Bill
Yeah, it's ah the the short story is both of those things.

01:29:29.18
Anthony Dyer
but

01:29:32.02
Bill
Our sister gave us one, the the ending one with the jump over the gate, blah, blah, blah.

01:29:33.66
Anthony Dyer
yeah

01:29:35.62
Bill
And then another friend of ours gave us the it was the initial part that we didn't know how to close out an episode was episode four or five. I think right, Mike and Mike just start telling people to fuck off to begin with.

01:29:41.85
Mike
yeah

01:29:44.66
Bill
And then we got that stuff and been doing it ever since. So I don't know. We have we try to have a little bit of fun with it. So once again, Anthony, again, don't hang up. We're going to close out here, but don't hang up.

01:29:55.13
Anthony Dyer
Sounds good.

01:29:55.26
Mike
a

01:29:55.35
Bill
But um seriously, thank you. Thank you very much for coming on and taking the time. We which truly appreciate it. yeah Everyone, you know obviously, yeah you know, take a look at the Instagram, his book, um all the information, reach out to him if you got any questions for him. But yeah, we we truly, truly appreciate it. Mike, I love you, brother.

01:30:11.61
Mike
Love you too.

01:30:12.63
Bill
And I know we'll talk soon.

01:30:13.94
Mike
We shall.

01:30:15.06
Bill
All right. Goodbye, everyone.

01:30:16.15
Anthony Dyer
Thanks for having me, guys.

01:30:16.66
Mike
Bye.

01:30:16.75
Anthony Dyer
Appreciate

01:30:17.72
Mike
Thanks.