SoberNotMature - Episode 188 (Death Doula Mara - The Grim Reaperess)

00:00:01.95
Bill
All right, everyone. Welcome once again to another episode of Sober, Not Mature. And our guest tonight, hopefully you'll remember her from episode 94. She told us her entire story.

00:00:14.63
Bill
We're not going to hear it tonight. So at some point, go back and listen to it. But not tonight. Listen to what she's got to talk about. Because tonight, she comes to us with 11 years of sobriety under her belt and death in her heart.

00:00:24.52
Mike
Woohoo!

00:00:27.70
Mike
he

00:00:28.01
Mara
yeah a Oh, thank you so much.

00:00:29.06
Bill
yeah yeah Welcome. Welcome. yeah Welcome to our friend Mara. Welcome back.

00:00:36.90
Mara
How long did it take you to come up with that?

00:00:39.00
Bill
You know what? Right off the top of my head at the other night, I'm like, that's kind of funny. I'm like, yeah, we're doing a death thing. And I'm like, cause I figured we'd talk about your sobriety one way or the other, but like, yeah, she's coming. She's got death in her heart now. So was, it was quick.

00:00:50.49
Bill
I'm pretty witty.

00:00:50.63
Mara
Yes, I loved it.

00:00:51.51
Bill
I'm pretty witty that way.

00:00:52.49
Mara
and love it.

00:00:54.14
Bill
You know, most of the time, right, Mike?

00:00:55.27
Mara
You're good with it.

00:00:56.29
Mike
Whatever.

00:00:58.33
Mara
Our mutual friend calls me the grim reaperous, Tony.

00:00:58.55
Bill
Yeah. And,

00:01:02.10
Bill
Ooh, I like that one too.

00:01:03.18
Mara
The grim reaperous.

00:01:03.33
Bill
We're going to talk about the whole death doula thing. I like the grim reap reap.

00:01:09.59
Mara
There's even an emoji he created. I'll send it to you later.

00:01:12.18
Mike
Show title.

00:01:12.27
Bill
Yeah. Yes. Yeah. its Oh yes. Yes. Yes. yes Exactly. Remember that Mike, write that down.

00:01:16.84
Mara
Yes.

00:01:17.91
Bill
Can you spell it? Mike's Mike's Mike's already writing it down.

00:01:20.05
Mike
Fuck you.

00:01:22.09
Bill
No, no, no. I was, I was going to say, I don't know how to fuck his rip repris repris.

00:01:25.15
Mara
R E A P R E S S.

00:01:27.32
Mike
Yeah, no shit.

00:01:28.07
Bill
Okay.

00:01:28.88
Mara
I'll, I'll send it to you.

00:01:28.86
Bill
Repress. Chris?

00:01:31.15
Mara
Reapress, the grim reaper.

00:01:33.74
Bill
Yeah. Maybe if everyone could tell, we're all in a great mood. We had a technology issue to begin with.

00:01:37.23
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:01:37.71
Bill
it It doesn't make any fucking sense. So, you know, it kind of ah kind of put i had a damper on it.

00:01:40.31
Mara
No.

00:01:42.68
Bill
But, you know, to begin with, we've had Mike and I, I mean, shit, we've you and I have had these technology issues with guests and it doesn't make any fucking sense. So, um and it's not, I mean, Mara's got a USB headset hookup, the whole bit, everything should be fine.

00:01:54.55
Bill
And apparently it wasn't until it was. So. So anyhow, so yeah, but, but last time, obviously, you know, we, we heard about your story and stuff like that.

00:02:00.17
Mara
Yes.

00:02:05.26
Bill
And the, um obviously we want to get into, you know, what you're, what you're doing now. Cause that was kind of the the thing. I mean, I know you're, you got your own little deal going on, which obviously we want to talk about, but I don't know. I mean, what have you, what have you been up to?

00:02:16.59
Bill
Cause it's been, I mean, episode 94, this is episode 188. I'm not going to do the math in my head. It's 90 some episodes.

00:02:21.69
Mara
Oh, wow.

00:02:23.08
Bill
Yeah. So, oh shit, literally cut in half. I don't come to think of that.

00:02:25.84
Mara
it's

00:02:26.01
Bill
Look at that.

00:02:26.27
Mike
Yeah, hey.

00:02:28.13
Bill
Wow. I just, I just fucking amazed myself as soon as I did that.

00:02:31.20
Mara
Wow.

00:02:32.62
Bill
I just did the guy.

00:02:32.83
Mike
Serendipity.

00:02:34.50
Bill
Jesus Christ.

00:02:35.38
Mara
ah

00:02:36.54
Bill
188, 94. Let's add 94 to that. You got to come back again if we're still alive. Speaking, speaking of death.

00:02:41.65
Mara
Well, it was like two years ago, it was about two years ago because it was right after the retreat, which is, was in November. So it was right after the November retreat. It was my last time.

00:02:49.66
Bill
Was it yet?

00:02:50.63
Mara
That was two years, two Novembers ago. So this November, it would be two years.

00:02:52.81
Mike
oh

00:02:54.43
Bill
Yeah. So December of what? 20, you know, 23 right? Yeah.

00:02:57.69
Mara
Yeah.

00:02:58.71
Bill
Well, cool.

00:02:58.95
Mara
I had just started dating my partner. We say partner.

00:03:01.46
Bill
Yes.

00:03:01.65
Mara
yeah

00:03:01.64
Mike
Ooh, nice.

00:03:02.21
Mara
We say partner now in 2025. So, yeah.

00:03:04.72
Mike
Wait a minute.

00:03:05.56
Bill
See, well, that was the other the other quick thought I had the other day. I was going to start it off and say that, you know, our good friend allowed his girlfriend to come on tonight. But

00:03:13.04
Mara
Yeah. like Everyone loves Igor.

00:03:15.48
Bill
yeah ah he's he's a good dude. Yeah, I think, well, maybe we'll talk about him too. What do you think, Mike? he's ah

00:03:20.52
Mara
We can talk about him.

00:03:22.24
Bill
He's fun. So really, you guys have been together together almost two years. Let's let's start there. where did you Where did you meet this young man?

00:03:26.38
Mara
Well, so, well, interestingly, interestingly enough, so as, but so I also am a hospice liaison.

00:03:28.09
Mike
wait a minute

00:03:36.25
Mara
So my job is to sell hospice, which sounds really bad because it's, it's, I mean, selling hospice.

00:03:40.00
Mike
No, it sounds wonderful.

00:03:42.01
Bill
Right.

00:03:42.99
Mara
So I'm selling a product, I'm selling my team. So actually i was, um ah scheduled a meeting in the assisted living that he is the executive director for, and he takes His job very seriously cares very much about his residents. He wants them to have continuity of care. He doesn't want a whole bunch of different vendors in there. And I went in there for the meeting to try to sell my hospice. And he came into the meeting and was like, oh, what hospice do you work for? And I told him and he goes, oh, I'm sorry.

00:04:11.22
Mara
that's not the hospice we we like for our patients. Our hospice offers more, our hospice so offers our residents more than yours does.

00:04:14.16
Bill
and

00:04:18.23
Mara
So i'm going to have to end this meeting and thank you. and And then he asked me to leave. And that was my first interaction with him. Then he took the bagels that i brought and walked out with them.

00:04:24.30
Mike
Nice. Right.

00:04:26.77
Mara
So he kicked me out and took my bagels.

00:04:27.10
Mike
nice

00:04:29.32
Mara
And I thought he was the biggest jerk in the world and then went on a date with them about two months later. And I

00:04:33.81
Mike
yeah

00:04:34.29
Bill
Well, but that's what was going to say. that's what That's what us people do. You get somebody to treat you like shit, you're like, I'm going to marry that guy one day.

00:04:40.93
Mara
Okay.

00:04:42.01
Mike
cp

00:04:42.26
Mara
Please be meaner to me next time. Next time throw the bagels at me and we're going to married right here on the spot.

00:04:45.31
Mike
right

00:04:47.37
Bill
yeah

00:04:48.25
Mara
Yeah. So that was October of 2023. And then we went on our first date right after the retreat. So November of 2023. And I called him after the date and was like, this isn't going to work.

00:04:59.22
Mara
um we

00:04:59.48
Mike
Right.

00:05:00.14
Mara
I don't think because he was too um social and friendly and had all this energy and I'm like dead inside and it was too much for me.

00:05:00.16
Mike
Right.

00:05:06.59
Mike
you're right

00:05:08.35
Mara
And I was like, yeah, this is too much. And he was like, okay, well then we'll just be friends. We don't ever have to hang out again. And that was even worse because he didn't bite. So then I was mad and yeah, did all the things that toxic alcoholic women do and was devastated.

00:05:23.97
Mara
Like how dare you respect my boundaries and not want to

00:05:26.03
Mike
yeah

00:05:28.33
Mara
and

00:05:28.47
Bill
hang Hang on one second. i'm I'm making a list here. So um kicker kick her out of a meeting.

00:05:30.84
Mara
yeah

00:05:31.61
Mike
hmm

00:05:33.93
Bill
And then what'd you say? Oh,

00:05:35.58
Mara
um when i When I told him I just wanted to be friends, he accepted that and said, okay, then we're just friends.

00:05:40.38
Bill
oh yeah. Oh, yeah.

00:05:41.10
Mara
He didn't beg.

00:05:42.59
Bill
Yeah. don't Don't beg, accept, make them wanting more. And then what'd you say? Be mean, throw things at you?

00:05:46.36
Mike
if

00:05:47.58
Bill
I'm just...

00:05:47.78
Mara
and No, he didn't. But maybe if he would have, it would have moved quicker. But no, he was he's very nice, very respectful, picked me up in the car, brought me, well, he actually brought me a gift on our first date, you know, brought me a book.

00:05:59.32
Mara
It was, you know, the whole thing, all those things I'm not used to. he was very respectful.

00:06:02.21
Mike
right yeah it

00:06:04.88
Mara
So I didn't know what to do with it.

00:06:06.08
Bill
ah just I just like the fact that you said, yeah, this isn't going to work. He's like, okay. Just fucking work.

00:06:10.93
Mike
is

00:06:12.82
Mara
That's him. he was

00:06:13.99
Mike
yeah it is

00:06:15.17
Mara
he was like, okay, so you understand this means that i'm I can date other women.

00:06:15.51
Bill
No.

00:06:18.45
Mara
And I was like, what? What do you mean? like i'm you know Because usually when we're when we're crazy alcoholic women picking toxic boyfriends, like you tell them you don't want them and you fully expect that evening for them to be standing outside your house, throwing things at your window, keying keying your car, you know none of that.

00:06:34.08
Mike
Right.

00:06:36.17
Mara
He was like, okay, no problem.

00:06:38.10
Mike
t

00:06:39.83
Mara
okay, if that's what you want, I will, and you know, with his accent, if that's what you want, no problem.

00:06:41.55
Bill
Yeah.

00:06:44.32
Bill
Right.

00:06:46.14
Mara
What?

00:06:46.93
Mike
fool

00:06:47.26
Mara
Aren't you going to beg me? No, I actually have some self-worth. What does that even mean? Yeah. So that's, so that was two years ago as well, but yeah, hospice and started off just trying to sell my death product. That's how I met him.

00:07:03.56
Bill
So he's in and maybe I but well, not maybe I guess I did misunderstand. I thought that he worked. So you guys don't work for the same company. You work for different companies.

00:07:10.32
Mara
No, no, no.

00:07:11.33
Bill
OK, I got you. I got you. But.

00:07:12.62
Mara
no Yeah. He works for, a um he so he is an executive director of an assisted living. So he managed, the actually the largest assisted living in the state of Ohio. So he he's you know awesome at what he does. He he cares. it's He really cares about his residents very more than I typically see out in the community, because I go in and out of a lot of facilities and you know I would never want to

00:07:32.15
Mike
Right.

00:07:36.68
Mara
obviously these are my partners. so I'm really not going to talk bad about him, but very rarely but bad about them, but very rarely do you see an as executive director out of their office um doing like he'll, if they need plumbing done, he knows how to do all that stuff, which is also weird to me.

00:07:40.13
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:07:52.08
Bill
right

00:07:52.34
Mara
Knowing i man a man that knows how to do that stuff, but he'll be like helping with plumbing or helping with outside doing that kind of stuff or laying tile if they need help with that, but also doing the business aspect of it.

00:07:52.58
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:07:54.90
Mike
um

00:08:03.84
Mara
Like, ah so he's very good at it. So yeah, he's, He's just a good guy. He's a good man.

00:08:09.27
Bill
Right. Yeah. When well he said laying tile, I was going to, well, I don't what I'm going to.

00:08:12.09
Mara
No.

00:08:14.05
Bill
So he, he knows how to lay pipe too.

00:08:14.41
Mike
Jesus.

00:08:15.88
Mara
ah yeah God.

00:08:16.01
Bill
Right.

00:08:17.36
Mara
and That's another show. That's another show for another day. Oh,

00:08:21.24
Mike
No, that's this show, unfortunately.

00:08:23.15
Bill
Yeah. Yeah. I was going to say, this is, yeah this is every, every bit about us.

00:08:26.99
Mara
no

00:08:27.34
Bill
Wait, wait, she, she said something I can make inappropriate.

00:08:27.54
Mara
God.

00:08:29.99
Bill
Let's take that.

00:08:30.17
Mara
I had a feeling that was coming.

00:08:30.63
Bill
Let's take that run with it.

00:08:32.61
Mara
Yeah, well.

00:08:32.95
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:08:33.13
Bill
But no, the, the, the thing that is, like I said, I misunderstood that part of it, but I mean, that's, that's kind of cool though. I mean that, um so really just randomly you guys, you guys met from obviously being in the same business on different sides of things, but, but I mean, that's how, that's how you met randomly. Like I said, I thought, I don't know why I thought that you were you know, of this big, huge company that you guys met somewhere in the, in the, in the same organization. So, but that's cool though.

00:08:55.64
Mara
Yeah, it was very, it was cool. and And even when we started dating, he still did not choose to work with me. There was no conflict of interest. He was like, I'm sorry. And I remember I would get really offended, you know, because he didn't, wouldn't break the rules for me, but he's got a lot of integrity as well.

00:09:10.54
Mara
So it wasn't an option.

00:09:11.40
Bill
Right.

00:09:12.34
Mara
He was like, this it's not changing just because we're dating.

00:09:12.46
Mike
How dare he?

00:09:15.78
Mara
Like, okay, whatever.

00:09:16.09
Mike
Right.

00:09:17.88
Bill
yeah

00:09:19.06
Mara
So I've learned a lot from him and

00:09:21.34
Bill
Well, I mean, and again, I mean, it's, a you know, like these are, these are good lessons we learned, you know, but yeah, what's, what's this whole fucking integrity thing, right?

00:09:29.12
Mara
Yeah, it doesn't make any sense. I appreciate it now. I do. it's It's not something... i mean, I have my own integrity, but finding it from other people, especially in a partner, you know.

00:09:37.11
Mike
right yeah

00:09:38.93
Mara
You actually are going to do what you say you're going to do, and then you do it?

00:09:40.66
Mike
okay Right.

00:09:42.54
Mara
What?

00:09:44.78
Bill
So how did you, and I don't, I don't know if I i even know, how did you end up getting into

00:09:45.00
Mara
Yeah.

00:09:49.05
Bill
that line of work. I mean, let's ah just curiosity wise, how did you get into it?

00:09:53.21
Mara
So... I'll be honest with you. I was always preoccupied with death, but not like spooky death. I'm not a horror film person. i there's been a couple incidents where I've been able to be bedside with someone when they've died.

00:10:07.75
Mara
So like, and i mean, when we're in recovery, we talk about these God moments. I mean, Mike, we know you don't really talk about them, but some of us talk about these, these God moments.

00:10:15.45
Mike
Thank you. Her. thank you

00:10:18.28
Mara
So these moments where you just kind of feel, and let's take God out of it you know, for people, for people who aren't God, get God's and just say these moments where you just feel the energy in the room shift, whatever you choose to call it, you know, whether you call it God or whatever.

00:10:29.99
Mike
sure

00:10:30.75
Bill
Thank you.

00:10:33.83
Mara
And I just know that being bedside with somebody when they transition out of this world, it is, it's an experience that I, I truly can't explain. You have to almost be there for it. And I remember the first time I had that experience,

00:10:49.52
Mara
I actually felt something different within myself. And I, I'm not one of those people that's like super religious when it comes to God. I don't have that religious relationship with God. I do feel like it's an energy. It's a, you know, this is an energy and it would make, so we are all made of energy.

00:11:06.25
Mara
I get it, you know, everything's made of energy. And I really don't believe that anything's gone. You know, the energy just shifts, shifts what it is just like water can be steam or ice or whatever.

00:11:17.63
Mara
And I know that in that moment when this person died, i felt almost like my energy shifted with his energy when he died. I was like that. I just experienced something that is amazing.

00:11:29.21
Mara
And I just remember feeling that, but not really knowing how do I get to do this? Like, how do I get to do this every day? And i not that I was like a succubus, like I sucked his energy out of his body, but almost like I felt like I got to be part of something holy or you know, and i and that

00:11:44.45
Mike
Right. Yeah. I was good. I was going to be snide and say, perfect addict behavior. Where can I get more of this?

00:11:50.15
Mara
Yeah.

00:11:50.68
Bill
hey

00:11:51.02
Mara
I mean, like snorting someone's spirit. I just, you knowno you know, but it that's how it felt though.

00:11:53.53
Mike
Yeah. Right. Not right.

00:11:58.14
Mara
And I just remember thinking like, I want to do this more.

00:11:58.65
Mike
Mm hmm.

00:12:00.78
Mara
I want more, but I didn't know what that meant.

00:12:01.27
Mike
Yeah. Yeah.

00:12:03.33
Bill
Thank you.

00:12:03.54
Mara
So I went on with my life, you know, working in addiction and I was an addiction counselor for a while.

00:12:04.06
Mike
Right.

00:12:10.13
Mara
And then, you know, but I was always kind of wondering. So I was at the same time going to school to be a social worker. And my intention was, to be a hospice social worker.

00:12:21.82
Mara
So obviously when you work in treatment and you're working for a nonprofit, you know, you get your student loans, uh, assisted with. So I was staying working for a nonprofit, by the way, I never got any student loan assistance.

00:12:34.45
Mike
Uff.

00:12:34.96
Mara
ill I, I owe $96,000 in student loan debt, but, um, I was doing that.

00:12:35.95
Bill
Right.

00:12:37.81
Mike
wo

00:12:39.90
Mara
And my intention was to graduate with my hospice social work license. Cause I thought with my license and social work, and then specifically move it into hospice. And, um, I got to experience taking care of my own dad, you know, when he passed away and got to spend the last moments with him. And once again, I was like, oh my God, I love this so much. We could talk about that more later if you want to, because that's how I got into you know, my current um business ah venture.

00:13:05.37
Bill
right

00:13:06.51
Mara
But, um and then I was working at um the Edna House for women and I was just burned out on treatment. I was just so burned out on working in treatment. I'm like, I can't do this anymore.

00:13:16.93
Mara
And a friend of mine who was an alumni of the Edna House came in one day and was like, hey, have you ever thought of, you know, working in hospice? And I was like, oh my God, I've always wanted to work in hospice.

00:13:27.52
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:13:27.59
Bill
hey

00:13:29.70
Mara
What do you mean? And she's like, well, we have a position open at the company I work for, but it's a sales position. And I was like, sales, what do you, you know? And she's like, you still have to sell it.

00:13:40.93
Mara
It's still a business you you need.

00:13:42.26
Mike
isn

00:13:42.49
Mara
And I said, well, what would my job be? And she's like, you would go out to nursing homes and assisted livings and doctor's offices and community events and, and talk about our hospice. And she's like, I think you'd be really good at it. And I was like,

00:13:55.60
Mara
I don't know how to like, I, in my mind, reps are like eight foot tall women with really long legs and high heels and, and perky boobs.

00:13:58.09
Bill
yeah

00:14:05.89
Mara
And they go into places and hand out brownies and they, and everyone loves them. And the, you know, I have this pharmaceutical rep idea in my head. And at the time I was like, I'm not that girl.

00:14:12.89
Mike
Mm-hmm. Mm.

00:14:15.74
Mara
And she goes, well, maybe one day you'll be that girl. You got to start somewhere.

00:14:18.56
Mike
yeah

00:14:20.20
Mara
And I was like, okay. So I went for my interview and they hired me and I could not believe it.

00:14:25.56
Mike
thanks

00:14:27.33
Mara
was insane. i was like, how did you just hire me? But the cool thing was I used my experience of working in addiction and treatment because a large amount of people who are dying before the age of like 60 are actually dying of alcoholism.

00:14:44.17
Mara
It's just got, it's got other names.

00:14:44.20
Mike
Right.

00:14:44.24
Bill
Right. Right.

00:14:46.01
Mara
It's got dementia.

00:14:46.22
Mike
Yeah.

00:14:47.64
Mara
It's got Alzheimer's. It's got senile degeneration of the brain. It's it's lung cancer. It's all of these things that I could see the face sheet and I start looking at it and I'm like, oh, this guy was definitely an addict.

00:15:00.28
Mara
And then I and then i start looking through the diagnoses and it's you know cirrhosis of the liver, um history of substance use disorder.

00:15:01.02
Mike
Right.

00:15:05.35
Mike
Right.

00:15:07.28
Mara
So I got to do what I've always loved to do, help addicts, but I get to help other people too. And i like I get to help addicts die with dignity and when perhaps they've not had any dignity their entire life.

00:15:12.99
Mike
that

00:15:13.07
Bill
right

00:15:18.10
Mara
And now I can help them have it.

00:15:18.52
Mike
Right.

00:15:21.10
Mike
Nice.

00:15:22.11
Bill
Well, and that that kind of goes back to what, um I mean, Mike and I talk about it a lot, you know, all the things that that we went through. And I mean, thankfully, this is a an extremely positive background you had once you got sober to be able to use now.

00:15:34.58
Bill
But even going back to, like you just said, having somebody be able to, you know, die with dignity. And um it is, I mean, the the thing of it is that I remember when, um and Mike and I talked about this, when my stepdad got sick, and that was in our first year of sobriety.

00:15:49.57
Bill
And there was a point where Basically, all I was doing, it was kind of like, you know, pray for his health and pray that he doesn't get, you know, he's sliding down this this scale of of his health that's deteriorating. And it really got down to the point where I just, I was in in my prayers, just, you know, kind of saying, you know, just just allow him to to hold on to, you know, some of his dignity, you know, because it was hard for me.

00:16:09.74
Bill
He's a strong human being and dealing with that. But then, you know, you take one of us people who just shit on everyone else and everything.

00:16:16.25
Mara
Yes.

00:16:17.16
Bill
their entire life and probably, you know, obviously rightfully so sometimes in turn got shit on and treated like garbage. You know, we brought it on ourselves, but now to be able to be on that other side of things.

00:16:28.01
Bill
Yeah. And I'm sure that you, you just have to be able to sit down and be like, okay, all this experience that, that I had, meaning you, As going through this whole process of your life, getting sober, having this job in treatment and in the addiction field and now being able to take all of that knowledge to use with people at the end of life, I think is fucking wonderful.

00:16:47.42
Mara
It's awesome.

00:16:48.39
Bill
Yeah.

00:16:49.35
Mara
Yeah, it's really awesome. And I didn't think that it was going to be, it didn't, I didn't see how the dots would be connected. and then as I saw them connect through no work of my own, I was like, okay, this is definitely what I'm meant to be doing.

00:17:05.46
Mara
Because it just, it turned ah and then just to make it even more, um you know, beshert, which means like meant to be. To make it even more meant to be, i happen to have the territory of like the inner city Cleveland.

00:17:19.96
Mara
So I'm going into the nursing homes that have what I like to call the forgotten people. You know, the people who are coming out of the shelters or being found on the streets and have nowhere to go.

00:17:25.66
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:17:25.68
Bill
right

00:17:25.82
Mike
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

00:17:30.70
Mara
And it just happens to be my territory. And even though I've worked for a couple different hospices, I always seem to get the same territory and the same people. It's actually funny because um whenever a hospice referral comes through that's extremely difficult, like we can't find any family members or the patient sometimes gets agitated and like throws air conditioners at people.

00:17:50.58
Mara
They already know, they already know offhand.

00:17:50.77
Mike
yeah

00:17:52.51
Mara
They're like, must be one of Mara's. Cause these are the ones that I, I like thrive in these conditions. These are the people that somehow gravitate towards me. And and unless you're an alcoholic or an addict, you don't,

00:18:04.64
Mara
they don't understand it. They're like, how do you always get these? And I'm like, I, I'm here to tell you, I always will. These are always going to be my people because we find each other.

00:18:13.28
Mike
Right.

00:18:13.43
Bill
Right.

00:18:13.56
Mara
It's the way that it's going to, it's just the way it is, you know?

00:18:17.14
Mike
Right.

00:18:18.02
Mara
So it's, it's really cool. It's definitely what I'm meant to be doing because, you know, a lot of these people have no family. Their families want nothing more to do with them. And then sometimes I'll have a patient who,

00:18:31.13
Mara
obviously, you know, has been on the streets for 20 years, 30 years, has no, their kids want nothing to do with them. And then at the end of life, they're like, you know, Miss Mara, can you help me find my daughter? I haven't spoken to her. i was not a good dad to her.

00:18:42.43
Mara
I've been smoking crack my whole life, you know, and I have no problem or fear reaching out to these kids and saying, Hey, i have your dad on hospice.

00:18:52.62
Mara
And I say to them, right. ah You are not obligated to want to be, because that's another thing that goes along with my death doula business, which we can talk about later, but

00:18:57.82
Mike
Right.

00:19:01.26
Mara
I make sure that family members know, but you are not obligated in any sense to to to show back up in this person's life, especially if they've abandoned abandoned you throughout your whole life.

00:19:09.04
Mike
Right.

00:19:11.47
Mara
But if you want to, i'm I'm here to help facilitate that.

00:19:11.76
Bill
Right.

00:19:13.25
Mike
Right.

00:19:15.25
Mara
But please know, I also understand why you would want nothing to do with them.

00:19:18.52
Mike
see

00:19:19.39
Mara
You know, so a lot of people in my position wouldn't feel comfortable doing that, but I i have no problem with it.

00:19:23.99
Mike
Sure. Yeah. Right. Because we understand both sides.

00:19:29.41
Mara
Both sides.

00:19:30.55
Mike
Yeah.

00:19:30.61
Mara
Yep.

00:19:31.43
Bill
So do you, and I mean, this probably a question I think I know the answer to, but so there, there's gotta be, um I'm sure hospice facilities out there that would try to prey on these families to get them back involved.

00:19:31.51
Mara
Yep.

00:19:41.92
Bill
Right. Or I mean, not prey on them. I don't even know if that's the right word. Like you, the fact that you bring it up right away saying there's, you who have no obligation. um I don't know. i'm I'm guessing that not everyone would take that approach. And I think it's wonderful to, if nothing else to put the family at ease, especially, i don't know, you know, given that circumstance, it's a weird one, but I'm guessing not everyone would take that approach. Right.

00:20:01.40
Mara
Well, my job within hospice really is to bring the business. And once you bring once you bring the business, once you bring the patient on, you kind of put your hands up and say, you know, you're kind of my specific role.

00:20:05.01
Bill
Right. Right.

00:20:12.62
Mara
Once I bring the patient on to hospice and I get the consent signed and then they are quote unquote admitted to hospice, really my job kind of is stop there, hand them over to the clinical team and stop there.

00:20:21.52
Bill
right

00:20:21.72
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:20:24.83
Mara
Me being someone who has very terrible boundaries and doesn't know how to take my hands off of anything, i will burn myself I will burn myself out staying involved just because, well, for a multitude of reasons. Number one, I'm a flaming codependent and I don't want anyone to be upset or sad.

00:20:41.55
Mara
But aside from that, this was something I cultivated and I want to stay involved as much as I possibly can, as long as it's ethically appropriate. You know, of course, I don't ever do something I'm not supposed to do, but I do want to help people

00:20:50.38
Mike
see

00:20:50.75
Bill
right

00:20:55.39
Mara
You know, the clinical team provides the clinical care, the medical care, the social worker does provide social work stuff, but you're not always going to find a social worker.

00:21:00.30
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:21:05.55
Mara
Our our social worker for the company i work for is phenomenal. She's amazing. She doesn't understand inner city Cleveland, and she certainly doesn't understand where Mr.

00:21:11.87
Mike
Right.

00:21:14.23
Mara
So-and-so is going because you don't have to be dying to be on hospice. You have to have a terminal illness that will most likely end your life within six months, but you don't have to be laying in bed, like bed bound dying.

00:21:22.76
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:21:25.43
Mara
So we've had hospice patients that are hopping on their electric wheelchair and riding down Euclid Avenue on a Friday night and the social worker will be like, I'm not quite sure where he was going. I know where he was going.

00:21:35.97
Mara
I can tell you exactly where he was going.

00:21:35.93
Mike
Right. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

00:21:37.81
Mara
you know what I mean?

00:21:38.19
Mike
right

00:21:38.77
Mara
So I'll go see him on Monday and be like, you know, Mr. So-and-so, so what are you doing? Like, come on now, let's talk about this for a second. And ah how'd you know? And I'm like, what do you mean?

00:21:47.62
Mike
yeah

00:21:48.11
Mara
How did I know? Like, I know what you're doing. Come on. Like, this isn't good. I don't want you to end up having to lose, you know, lose your meds that we give you because you're doing this.

00:21:56.18
Mike
and see

00:21:56.87
Mara
Come on now. Like, all right, all right, now I know someone's watching me. Like it's that kind of thing. I don't mind having those conversations. So basically, otherwise, um you most hospice liaisons would not be that involved.

00:22:04.62
Bill
is basically a that's the platform.

00:22:05.04
Mike
oh

00:22:10.87
Mara
And maybe eventually I'll be too tired to do it because it does take up a lot of my time outside of work.

00:22:11.29
Mike
right.

00:22:16.87
Mike
Yeah.

00:22:17.24
Mara
But for now, I love my people.

00:22:20.63
Bill
Right.

00:22:20.69
Mike
yeah

00:22:21.91
Bill
Well, I mean, i'm I'm guessing it's just ah i would think that not a lot of people do something like that because they just don't, they just don't know, you know, they don't like, like the, like you said, the, the individuals, i don't know where he's going down Euclid Avenue.

00:22:28.77
Mara
Yeah.

00:22:33.90
Bill
um I mean, I never, i never spent that time as ah as a raging alcoholic in in Cleveland, but when somebody mentions Euclid Avenue in Cleveland, I know what's going on there.

00:22:43.49
Mara
Yeah.

00:22:43.55
Bill
I've never hung out on Euclid Avenue, but I know what's going on there. You know, because I've been around a minute or two just around the people around there, so I get it. But, um I mean, I'm guessing that people probably just don't do it because, again, they that they don't know. But, I mean, that goes back to everything else. All of your experiences, you know, these these past and present experiences have help helped you do what you do and hopefully do it you know what i hopefully obviously do it well, right?

00:23:05.47
Mara
Yeah, I think I do it well. I mean, hospice is a, it's a business just like anything else. And there's probably over between 150 and 200 hospices just in Northeast Ohio.

00:23:15.97
Mara
And yeah, and everyone's looking for a piece of the pie.

00:23:16.41
Bill
really

00:23:16.53
Mike
Right.

00:23:19.75
Mara
And sometimes it can be disheartening because you're, there's a lot of competition and there's a lot so i really do have to make the decision every day. Like, who am I working for?

00:23:29.85
Mara
and and, you know, don't throw out Mike, but God is my employer. And I'm, I know I'm working for my higher power, and I'm working for whatever i cannot work for money or work for because I'll never be fulfilled, because there's always going to be another hospice right behind me that is offering something better.

00:23:34.10
Mike
and

00:23:34.53
Bill
don't want to see my eyes the right.

00:23:41.54
Mike
right

00:23:49.38
Mara
Or, you know, um maybe the rep is a little bit more um personable, or maybe they bring better cookies, or who knows, but i could get, you know, if I'm just working for the numbers, I'm going to be continually disappointed. And I still get stuck there sometimes where I'm like, I only got, you know, I obviously still have a goal.

00:24:08.63
Mara
You know what I mean?

00:24:09.08
Mike
isn't

00:24:09.19
Mara
i have I have a company I work for, and I, you know, if I don't make my goal, I beat myself up. But how many people did I help? this month?

00:24:16.29
Mike
Right.

00:24:16.39
Mara
How many people's lives were positively impacted by what I did? And and if I remember that being the driving force, then then I'm doing something right.

00:24:26.10
Mike
Absolutely.

00:24:26.42
Bill
Well, I mean, I mean, hu

00:24:27.22
Mike
Where'd you learn that shit from? um

00:24:28.63
Mara
I don't know. ah book, some weird blue book with a hundred...

00:24:32.91
Mike
Right. I know.

00:24:36.42
Bill
yeah, I'll book.

00:24:36.71
Mike
Practicing these principles. God damn.

00:24:39.07
Mara
It's hard. how Sometimes.

00:24:40.23
Mike
Of course. Yeah.

00:24:41.40
Mara
Sometimes it's hard.

00:24:41.63
Mike
Well, and everything, it's hard for all of us, but, but it's, it also, again, being selfish, it, it's kind of easier to, you know, by having these principles and and doing the right thing, you know, laying your head down at night and going, yeah, okay, fuck.

00:24:57.28
Mike
I didn't make my nut for the company, but I did the right thing. Yeah.

00:25:01.72
Mara
Yeah.

00:25:01.98
Mike
That's, you know, right. You're not tossing and turning because your conscious is fucking clear. Even if your wallet sometimes isn't.

00:25:09.45
Mara
It's man, who you telling?

00:25:09.72
Bill
Yeah.

00:25:11.55
Mike
ah

00:25:11.69
Mara
It's true.

00:25:12.22
Mike
The listeners.

00:25:14.06
Mara
Yeah.

00:25:16.09
Bill
But I mean, I'm guessing that, well, I'm guessing, I know that hospice is a huge thing with insurance companies and all that sort of thing. And I mean, it's a, again, it's a, it's a business. The insurance industry is a business. Everyone, like you said, is after a piece of that, a piece of that pie. So when the So when you're talking about like the the area of Cleveland, like the inner city and stuff like that of Cleveland, so the is every hospice center, does it have assistance available for somebody who is um either underinsured, uninsured, homeless, whatever the case is? How does how does that work? Because I don't even know.

00:25:49.78
Mara
ah So you're so you're talking about ah you're talking about like a hospice house. So I mean, I'm obviously, i'm just to be appropriate, I'm not going to mention any hospice names, but there's there's a local hospice that has a hospice house.

00:26:00.07
Mike
Right.

00:26:00.48
Bill
Right.

00:26:03.67
Mara
So a hospice house is somewhere where you can go and to spend the end of your the end of your days if you have a terminal illness. However, there's certain parameters to your disease process that you have to meet in order to have your insurance or your Medicaid pay for you to spend those days there if you don't have money to pay cash, because it's a beautiful building and a beautiful location on the lake.

00:26:27.40
Mara
And, and trust me, everybody and their mother wants to die there. I would like to live there. It's the most good, you know, but if I was a person that just had Medicaid, um which is actually what happens to a lot of people at the end of life, especially coming up now.

00:26:32.23
Mike
Right. Yeah.

00:26:42.29
Mara
So we have this generation of boomers that's the largest population in the United States of America.

00:26:47.89
Mike
right

00:26:48.69
Mara
And they're all going to be dying or they' all they're all going to need somewhere to go.

00:26:51.86
Mike
yeah

00:26:53.81
Mara
There's actually a shortage of beds in the United States to accommodate all these people. like nerd Like, it's not good what's coming. they're They call it the silver tsunami because there's, yeah, because there's not going to be enough.

00:27:02.57
Mike
Yeah.

00:27:02.78
Bill
Really?

00:27:05.83
Mara
There's not going to be enough places for these people to go. And eventually what happens to mostly everybody, unless you've done a really good job with your money, is most people are going to end up in a facility and and you're going to end up having to spend down all of your money and going on Medicaid and then a and then applying for what's called a Medicaid waiver to pay for where you are.

00:27:17.67
Mike
Right. Yep. Yep. yep

00:27:27.65
Mara
So um most people do not have the money to go to this hospice house. So the hospice that I work for, we actually take care of the patient wherever they call home.

00:27:39.90
Mara
So it could be their actual home. or it could be a nursing home, or it could be an assisted living. So we go wherever they go.

00:27:46.48
Bill
Okay.

00:27:46.58
Mara
So to answer your question about where do a lot of these people end up who are like indigent, most of these indigent people end up on Medicaid in a nursing home.

00:27:55.41
Mike
right.

00:27:56.22
Mara
So that's where they, and when they start to decline, that's when the nursing homes will call our company or another hospice and say, hey, can you come and check this person out? I think they're hospice eligible.

00:28:08.12
Mara
And the whole point is for the hospice to come in and give extra care on top of what they're already getting. So you're already getting cared for in a nursing home, but now you're gonna have a whole team coming in giving extra care, which is extra nursing visits, extra s STNA visits, extra social work visits, extra chaplain visits, volunteer visits.

00:28:14.58
Mike
right

00:28:30.03
Mara
The company I work for provides music therapy. So every patient gets a licensed music therapist, which is my favorite part of this hospital.

00:28:33.11
Bill
Really?

00:28:37.22
Mike
Yeah, I bet.

00:28:38.33
Mara
It's so cool. Yeah, it's very cool.

00:28:41.15
Mike
Nice.

00:28:42.08
Bill
Huh. Yeah. And that's ah so hospice care too. You can have somebody that is still living in, in a actual house and hospice care can come into there.

00:28:48.41
Mara
Yes.

00:28:49.94
Bill
Cause I think that that, if I remember correctly, maybe, ah I don't know, Mike, you might remember this too. When, when mom was going through her stuff, I think when, cause I think there was talk of,

00:28:55.54
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:28:58.64
Bill
At that point of when she was going to move in in here with with our sister. And then I think there was good. They were talking about having that, you know, some sort of nursing and hospice care come in at that point if it got to that level.

00:29:10.06
Bill
So that do you guys do that? Go into somebody's home like that under that circumstance, too?

00:29:13.07
Mara
Yes, we have.

00:29:13.97
Bill
OK, OK.

00:29:14.15
Mara
Yeah, my most recent admission is someone at home. And that's the frustrating thing is that there's still this mindset out there that hospice is meant to be brought in when the person is actively dying.

00:29:22.99
Bill
Right.

00:29:24.76
Mara
But that's not that's not the case.

00:29:25.15
Mike
Yeah, right. Like the last week.

00:29:27.37
Mara
Yes, and that's not the case.

00:29:27.47
Mike
Right.

00:29:29.41
Mara
you're Hospice is meant to be called in when the person is no longer choosing to aggressively treat their terminal illness. So when you no longer want to do dialysis, when you no longer want to do chemo,

00:29:37.34
Mike
Right.

00:29:42.06
Mara
when you no longer want to go out to the hospital for every little thing because you've kind of conceded to your innermost self that I am not getting any better and I'm so sick of going to the hospital.

00:29:42.32
Mike
Mm hmm.

00:29:48.21
Mike
Yeah.

00:29:52.95
Mara
Like people don't realize how traumatic even a hospitalization is on a sick person.

00:29:53.79
Mike
say yeah Right. Right. Right.

00:29:58.22
Mara
How traumatic is going to the hospital for a non-sick person? Just

00:30:01.49
Mike
right

00:30:02.17
Mara
It's a pain in the neck sitting in the law, you know, sitting in the emergency department, going into observation. Sometimes they don't even have a bed for you. So you're laying in the hallway. Like this is stuff that still happens to elderly people whose pan their families start to panic and say, you know, mom's not eating as much.

00:30:14.01
Mike
right

00:30:14.04
Bill
Right.

00:30:18.17
Mara
And you you'll literally go up to the person and say, what is it that you want? And they will say, I want to die. i don't want to do this anymore.

00:30:24.24
Mike
Yeah.

00:30:25.56
Mara
But you have the kids, the kids going, no, no, no.

00:30:25.82
Mike
Mm-hmm. Mm.

00:30:28.38
Mara
Mommy has to fight. Mommy has to fight. And mommy's telling you that she does not want to fight.

00:30:30.25
Mike
Right.

00:30:33.48
Mike
Right.

00:30:33.61
Mara
Mommy's telling you that she's done.

00:30:33.67
Bill
right

00:30:35.66
Mara
She's tired. You know, and that's, those are the times where hospice, because the body will tell you when it's done.

00:30:37.22
Mike
Yeah.

00:30:42.03
Mara
That's the thing that I like, I want to broadcast across to everybody is that dying is literally

00:30:42.05
Mike
Right.

00:30:49.09
Mara
Just like you don't have to tell a baby how to come out of a woman, you don't have to tell a body how to die. It knows what it's doing. The problem is that we turn our we turn away from it.

00:30:56.61
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:30:59.38
Mara
We say that's not read it's not really happening.

00:30:59.54
Mike
Right.

00:31:01.71
Mara
and And we try to stop it. It's literally coming for all of us. And the more we talk about it, the the less scary it's going to be.

00:31:05.65
Mike
yeah

00:31:08.85
Mike
No, absolutely. I mean, it's it's also society and then time I hate to, somehow religion's kind of twisted it up too, that, you know, right, life is precious. No, man, fucking everybody dies.

00:31:21.11
Mara
Yes.

00:31:21.13
Mike
Settle down.

00:31:21.26
Mara
Yes.

00:31:22.31
Mike
Right.

00:31:22.56
Bill
Thank you.

00:31:22.59
Mike
You know, it's part of the process, man. You're born, you live, you die. That's, you know, everybody

00:31:26.39
Mara
yes

00:31:28.08
Mike
Right. And we, and absolutely, we've got to get over this thing that death is this horrible, scary thing. You know, I mean, I've said it on here several times. I'm looking forward to it. I'm not hastening it anymore.

00:31:39.96
Mike
But, you know, I'm looking forward to not having to get up and go to work and not having to deal with all the nonsense in this world anymore. You know, it's going to be a lovely thing. And and I wish everyone had that attitude.

00:31:53.27
Mike
You know, it's fine. it's It's what we're supposed to do. It's great. you knowve You know, as an addict, i've got to I've got to remember that, you know, I can't. try to quicken it up anymore.

00:32:03.69
Mike
um

00:32:04.71
Mara
No, you don't want to do that.

00:32:05.51
Mike
you know, right. You know, and, and of course when I was doing that, um, I, that wasn't the point, right. I wanted to continue doing what I was doing. Um, I didn't want it to end.

00:32:16.25
Mike
Um, you know, and now that it has, I'm, I'm kind of like, okay, well, so you know, the, yes, I'm going to live and do what I'm doing and be sober and help other people and all that great stuff. And then I'm going to die and it's going to be fucking great.

00:32:28.87
Mike
Cause I don't have to deal with this shit anymore.

00:32:30.01
Bill
Yeah. Yeah, and you know what?

00:32:32.12
Mara
It's

00:32:32.60
Bill
we we do We talk about that stuff quite a bit because every time he says that, it makes me laugh, but I mean, I get get where you're coming from.

00:32:38.05
Mike
Hehehehe.

00:32:38.60
Bill
you know but But we've also talked about the fact that it it took a while. It took, well, number one, getting sober, of course, and you know um taking care of all the you know the the mess that I made with, you know if just talking about it personally, you know all the mess I made of all the people and my kids and my family and all that stuff.

00:32:54.26
Bill
And once you start getting all of that shit, that things are back in order and you've made your amends and you made your peace with everyone, then it gives you an opportunity to make peace with yourself. At least for me, it did, you know, and again, I don't, ah now I don't think as much about, um oh, I don't want to die. Yes. There's things I want to experience. I love what I do. I like to travel. I like to see beautiful stuff, but you know what? I like taking pictures and sharing that with people. And,

00:33:19.81
Bill
you know, doing things with my kids and being there with my kids. It's more about, and Mike and I talked about this. It's like, what, what can I do for other people? i can do things that may bring me a little bit of joy, but it also brings other people joy.

00:33:32.18
Bill
It's, you know, vicariously maybe through things that I'm doing, which is fun. That brings me even more joy, you know, but it is what it is. i Like I said, I'm not trying to, I'd like to stay healthy. I'd like to stick around for a while.

00:33:42.39
Mike
Yeah.

00:33:43.23
Bill
yeah know, I got a new grandson on the way and I got other shit going on and Um, I, but again, I want to be around for my kids. I want to be around for my family. I don't want to hasten it, but I, I'm not afraid of it anymore.

00:33:54.09
Bill
You know, I'm not afraid of, I've got all my shit in order. Everything's fine.

00:33:56.84
Mike
Yeah.

00:33:56.92
Bill
If I drop, if I drop dead tomorrow, everyone understands what they need to do with me, burn me up and throw me in the woods someplace. It's fine.

00:34:04.10
Mara
It's so cheap too.

00:34:04.10
Bill
Right.

00:34:05.34
Mara
That's a whole other racket. That's a whole other racket is funeral homes that I just, at funeral funeral directors hate to see me coming because I will tell families left and right, like you do not have to do this whole thing.

00:34:08.87
Mike
and

00:34:13.03
Mike
Right.

00:34:13.21
Bill
Right.

00:34:13.49
Mike
Yeah. Mm-hmm.

00:34:18.48
Mara
Like a lot of people don't even realize why the bodies were laid out and bodies were laid out because back before we had such advanced medical equipment, people would not really be dead.

00:34:18.92
Mike
Right.

00:34:28.35
Mara
So you'd have to lay them out for a few days to see if they woke back up again.

00:34:28.38
Mike
yeah

00:34:31.74
Mara
We don't need to do that anymore.

00:34:31.80
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:34:33.14
Mara
You don't need to spend $10,000.

00:34:33.49
Mike
right

00:34:35.06
Mara
Now I understand and night that might be what people choose to do. And I'm not going to go against, I will support people in whatever choice they have to make.

00:34:41.64
Mike
see

00:34:42.52
Mara
But the fact that so many people think they have to do that, you don't have to do that. You could save all your money to have your family throw you a rad party after you're dead.

00:34:50.60
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:34:51.69
Mara
and just pay $800, $900 to be directly cremated and just do something cool. You know, people, no one tells them about, I tell them about that, you know, as part of, during part of my death doula stuff.

00:34:57.78
Mike
Yeah.

00:34:58.07
Bill
Right. Right.

00:35:00.83
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:35:03.93
Mara
But there's certain areas in America where if you own your land, you can be buried in your own backyard as long as you follow certain rules.

00:35:09.81
Mike
Right.

00:35:12.04
Mara
There's green, green burials.

00:35:12.11
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:35:13.64
Mara
You just, burials this sea.

00:35:13.96
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:35:15.04
Mara
I mean, there's so many things, but because we don't like to talk about death in Ohio, I mean, in the world, you know, or in America, it's not even the world.

00:35:19.27
Mike
Mm-hmm. Right.

00:35:20.88
Bill
right

00:35:22.84
Mara
A lot of other cultures treat death very beautifully.

00:35:23.51
Mike
Right.

00:35:26.15
Mara
But for some reason here, we're like, oh, we don't want to speak about such things.

00:35:26.34
Mike
Sure.

00:35:29.69
Mara
We don't want to talk about it It's so uncomfortable. ah And where is it getting us? Broke and scared.

00:35:34.42
Mike
Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. see

00:35:36.31
Mara
Broke and scared.

00:35:37.42
Mike
yeah

00:35:37.67
Bill
Well, and i and I think with our with our grandma um on our dad's side, if I remember correctly, and I don't remember exactly, i for some reason, 1500 to 1800 sticks in my head as far as whatever her, she had like this death benefit insurance policy, and it was to pay for burial expenses.

00:35:52.52
Mara
Mm-hmm.

00:35:54.45
Bill
And you know we had our we had her cremated, we did a whole service at the at the cemetery. You were there, Mike, obviously.

00:35:59.03
Mike
yeah

00:35:59.73
Bill
And had it, that one was interned. And I'm sure we had, you know, something had to be paid for that. But I think that was all part of the, whatever it was, it was, it was relatively inexpensive. That when mom passed away, um that might've been two, three grand, I think, I don't remember, but it wasn't extravagant.

00:36:14.76
Bill
You know, we didn't have a big thing for her. We did a thing for her, um you know, but it was part of the military thing and whatever, like you said, I mean, there were certain things that had to happen.

00:36:17.70
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:36:23.32
Bill
We had to get the ashes released and something signed off by this and that and blah, blah, blah. All those things had to be transferred along. Um, you know, but I mean, I, I hear about that all the time, you know, people going through all these things and, um, I mean, yeah, tens of thousands of dollars with, I don't want, and I put that, I just finally, you know, finished up, you know, putting a will together and I put it in there. I'm like, everyone knows anyhow, but now it bounced down on paper. I don't need anything fucking special. I said, literally cremate me. And then i put it in there. My kids can decide where, but I said, basically someplace that they feel is appropriate.

00:36:56.36
Bill
You know, walk me and into the woods.

00:36:56.62
Mike
I'll

00:36:57.68
Bill
Walk me up and about. Don't get my ashes sprayed in your face. Stand down. Stand up. Upwind. Upwind.

00:37:03.83
Mike
up point.

00:37:05.81
Bill
Stand downwind.

00:37:08.86
Bill
Don't do that.

00:37:09.80
Mara
Uh-uh.

00:37:10.04
Bill
But i I don't care, you know, because at at that point, what the fuck do I care? If they want to do something, I'm not opposed to it. But there is no sense in my mind of of putting me in a ground or doing anything like that.

00:37:23.06
Bill
Mara, did and i i went off if i did i did I ever tell, I told the story, I mean, I think I might've told it on here years ago, but did you ever hear about what we did with our dad, Mara?

00:37:31.02
Mara
ah

00:37:32.02
Bill
Okay. So, so real quick, you want to talk about this stuff. So um our dad died 30 handful of 34 days, 33 days got sober. handful of thirty four days thirty three days before i got sober um And that was kind of like my ending point or whatever, if you've ever listened to my story. But um same deal. he had He had no will, no direction, no insurance, no nothing.

00:37:50.75
Bill
Kathy and I, and then, you know, so Kathy and drunk me were trying to figure out ah what was going on. So Kathy had to, along with her baby brother, literally, you know, was trying to figure out this shit. um So, you know, cremated the whole bit.

00:38:02.98
Bill
And then we were going to have him, um same thing, you know, interned. in inter They're in my, my grandpa's burial plot, just same thing as, you know, whatever, just right in that area.

00:38:13.96
Bill
And whatever it was, we, we called her Kathy called and it was going to be like two or $3,000 to have this thing done. Right. And then we're like, ah so when do you close? You know, we want to come by and obviously visit our, visit our grandpa, blah, blah, blah.

00:38:27.56
Bill
And they're like, oh you come by this time. They were closing like noon on a Saturday. So we went there and we dumped his ashes on top of my grandpa's grave. Yeah.

00:38:34.23
Mara
Oh, I love that.

00:38:36.58
Bill
Yeah, and that's that's what we did. We just walked around. we Neither one of us had been to that, our grandpa's burial, or his his plot, you know obviously his grave site for, I don't know, 25 years. We knew roughly where it was. um you know They said they'd leave a map to grab a map by the by the thing, try to find it. So we're walking around, finally found it.

00:38:55.16
Bill
But yeah, we just dumped his ashes. and And I'm not shitting you for because I used to go by there. I didn't go by there the last time I was there. i was going to stop by my way out, Mike, and I forgot to stop by the cemetery last time.

00:39:05.37
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:39:06.06
Bill
But I usually stop by there and just, you know, stop, take a quick picture, whatever. i you know, just hang out there for a second. What every time I go back to Cleveland, but for years that I mean, if not, it was after I was back in Wisconsin, I know three years, four years, um I used to go up there and and you could, you know, kind of like sort of kneel down and start digging there. You could find pieces in there.

00:39:24.61
Bill
It was, it's kind of gross to say that, but I would look for them every time I was there. Then finally everything just seeped into soil. Yeah.

00:39:31.07
Mara
It will. Yeah.

00:39:32.31
Bill
But, um but you know, that the thing of it is, is that, um I don't know, it's, he, I know he would have wanted to be, given the choice, if he would have had any direction, i know both of us knew he would have been fine with that.

00:39:44.47
Bill
But the whole thing was, it's like, I mean, there was already, ah Kathy had paid certain amount of money for this. There was an attorney involved with his estate. There's all this different shit that she's paying for. We're like, ah we're just going to fucking sprinkle his ashes.

00:39:56.34
Bill
Which is, you know, so we we disposed of a body at a cemetery. You know, I mean, it was, it is what it is, you know.

00:40:01.70
Mara
Nothing wrong with that.

00:40:03.60
Mike
Right.

00:40:03.62
Bill
well

00:40:03.75
Mara
That's why I tell people with my, you know, during, with, you know, my other, with my death doula stuff, please put what you want down on paper because no one's going to know.

00:40:10.80
Bill
Right.

00:40:12.19
Mike
right

00:40:12.54
Mara
but it still sounds like you handled it very well though.

00:40:15.67
Bill
Yeah. I mean, it was, it was a mess beyond a mess, but I mean, again, the worst part of it was, you know, by the time that, you know, that that we're dealing with even the the remnants of all this stuff, I mean, I'm 30 to 60 days sober by the time this stuff is just, you know, some of the main stuff. And then I don't think all, don't think everything got settled on that for,

00:40:33.88
Bill
God, probably six months after I got sober. It was coming up on a year, I think, from the time he died until everything completely got settled. It was a fucking mess. I mean, just too much to go into, but um all unimportant, you know, but it was a fucking mess. But you're right.

00:40:47.09
Bill
the The thing of it is, is that if nothing else, it's one thing that I think that between between Mike, um our sister Kathy, and my kids, everyone would would have a pretty goddamn good idea of what I wanted.

00:40:58.35
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:40:58.82
Bill
Um, but I did, I did a free will online and, you know, just went through the whole thing. And I think i I don't know, I had to pay 15, maybe I wasn't free, probably 15 or 20 bucks. It was next to nothing.

00:41:11.17
Bill
And then all I had to do all said and done is I had to have it witnessed by two people that were not part of the will. So I had my ex-wife and her husband. Witness it, you know, for me. And now it's on paper. Now my kids have a copy of a Kathy has one. I've got, it's just, you're right.

00:41:25.27
Bill
Get it all on paper. just makes, it makes everyone's life easier.

00:41:29.53
Mara
Oh, for sure. And it's, it's huge I mean, advanced directives are huge. You're talking about the not so traumatic part of it, but there's trauma involved too, if you don't put it down on paper. And that comes in the form of not specifying if you want to be a do not resuscitate or not. that's a whole

00:41:44.29
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:41:44.42
Mara
other That's a whole other issue that I have to deal with on a regular basis, because like Mike had brought up earlier, there's a whole lot of um things that play into someone

00:41:44.85
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:41:55.57
Mara
wanting to be a DNR or not. And a lot a lot of times I almost just burped.

00:41:57.37
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:41:57.78
Bill
right

00:42:00.26
Mara
I'm glad I caught myself. I forgot I was on air. um A lot of people, I mean, I have not been feeling well today, but it's fine.

00:42:02.28
Bill
That's fine. You know what? bur Burp, fart, it doesn't matter.

00:42:07.39
Mara
I'm perked up now because I'm with my friends. But um people who are full code. So by law, if you are not a do not reset resuscitate on paper and you're still quote unquote a full code, even if you're 80 years, 85 years 90 pounds,

00:42:19.44
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:42:23.11
Mike
Yeah.

00:42:23.56
Mara
If you stop breathing, they're required by law to do chest compressions on you.

00:42:28.45
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:42:29.44
Mara
And it is brutal. It's brutal because there's no way to restart the heart without compressing on the ribs and basically cracking the ribs.

00:42:38.81
Mike
Yep.

00:42:38.94
Bill
right

00:42:39.38
Mara
And it's, if you don't put it down on paper, and the problem is trying to have these conversations sometimes with families, they think if I don't leave, if I choose DNR, I'm saying that it's okay for my mom to die.

00:42:45.34
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:42:50.91
Mara
No, your mom is already dying.

00:42:50.90
Mike
Right.

00:42:53.25
Mike
Yes.

00:42:53.48
Mara
You're saying that you don't want us to crush her ribs to get her so heart started again.

00:42:57.34
Mike
Yeah. Mm-hmm.

00:42:58.16
Mara
You're saying that you don't want a hospital to shove a breathing tube down her throat and her to die in a hospital under lights, not even ah in an unfamiliar place that she's scared. That's what you're choosing.

00:43:08.36
Mike
yeah

00:43:09.37
Mara
That's what you're choosing if you're choosing her to be a full code. If you're, so you know, because basically yeah my death doula teacher, she, this is one of my favorite quotes that she says, you know, um chest compressions are rarely effective and always traumatic in a terminally ill patient.

00:43:23.83
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:43:25.17
Mara
You are never going to leave that without trauma done to the body. So now yourre now your 85-year-old mother has broken ribs.

00:43:30.07
Mike
Yeah.

00:43:30.09
Bill
Right.

00:43:33.76
Mara
She's scared if she survives it. She's in a hospital. you've You've opted to have them do lab work on her, put her on fluids so they can't find a vein because she's old and she's dehydrated.

00:43:41.19
Mike
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

00:43:44.42
Mara
And now they're poking at her and her arms are bruised. And all of these things are happening because no one educated you that death is okay and you're scared.

00:43:51.76
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:43:52.93
Mara
So you just decided I'm not making my mom a DNR. And it's, it's devastating. It's just devastating.

00:43:57.97
Mike
Yeah.

00:43:58.70
Mara
I can't even begin to tell you. I mean, we, if you, we want to go down the rabbit hole of what happens when someone dies and the things that people do to try to, so you know, keep life going in a dying body, it goes way beyond this, but I can tell you things.

00:44:12.28
Mike
Yeah. Yeah. No, it's it's horrible.

00:44:14.15
Mara
I can tell you things.

00:44:15.10
Mike
Right.

00:44:15.65
Mara
Yeah.

00:44:15.84
Mike
and and And yeah, exactly.

00:44:15.94
Mara
Yeah.

00:44:17.86
Mike
Let's beat the shit out of them and then they're going to die anyway.

00:44:20.86
Mara
and But now they're now they're going to die traumatized.

00:44:23.57
Mike
Yeah, right.

00:44:24.33
Bill
right right

00:44:24.57
Mike
Again, beat the shit out of them and they're going to die anyway.

00:44:27.65
Mara
One of the number...

00:44:27.95
Mike
Yeah, I know.

00:44:28.61
Mara
Oh, go ahead. I'm sorry. No, please go.

00:44:29.96
Mike
No, i was just, yeah, again, it it just comes back to, you know, people don't under, how can you not understand that everybody fucking dies? i mean, it, yeah, right.

00:44:39.72
Mara
Everybody, animals die, people die. And... and

00:44:42.41
Mike
Everything dies.

00:44:43.79
Mara
And the body knows how to die. The body knows exactly how to die.

00:44:46.21
Mike
Yes.

00:44:48.03
Mara
And one of the things that the body will stop doing is it'll stop being hungry and thirsty.

00:44:48.49
Mike
Right.

00:44:52.77
Mara
and and And then you try to force liquids on a body that can no longer process fluids.

00:44:52.76
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:44:58.16
Mara
So what happens when you shove fluids into a body that can't process them?

00:44:58.41
Mike
Right.

00:45:02.72
Mara
The fluids do something called third spacing. So you're trying to shove liquid into a dying body. The liquid has nowhere to go because the kidneys have stopped working.

00:45:11.36
Mike
Right.

00:45:11.41
Mara
the

00:45:11.49
Bill
Right.

00:45:11.90
Mara
The lungs have stopped where everything is slowing down. So you're pushing fluids onto this dying person.

00:45:14.98
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:45:16.97
Mara
The fluids have nowhere to go. So they start filling up the body and the person is essentially drowning from the inside out. And didn no one talks about this. You know who doesn't talk about this? Doctors.

00:45:26.64
Mike
Oh, yeah.

00:45:26.92
Mara
Doctors don't talk about this because God forbid they should they should have that conversation with the family that there's nothing more they can do.

00:45:34.17
Mike
is

00:45:34.35
Bill
right

00:45:34.95
Mike
Oh, yeah, right. Yeah, dirt yeah bingo. There's nothing they can do. And um if there's nothing they can do, they can't get paid.

00:45:44.45
Bill
hey

00:45:44.92
Mara
I didn't say that. You did. But...

00:45:46.25
Mike
i i Damn right I said it.

00:45:47.39
Mara
you

00:45:48.79
Bill
Well, you know what? on On that note, what do you think, Mike? I think we're at a good one. What did we say? Beating the shit out of people? You said that doctors can't make any more money.

00:45:55.25
Mara
yeah

00:45:55.65
Mike
Yeah, well, speaking of making money,

00:45:56.06
Bill
think

00:45:58.42
Mike
we'll be we'll be back with more of this wonderful conversation.

00:46:02.76
Mara
i was

00:46:03.87
Mike
Right after these words from our sponsors.

00:46:15.80
Bill
All right, everyone. Welcome back. And thank you, everyone, for that three cents or whatever we just made. We appreciate your patience.

00:46:22.33
Mike
Yes. Right. And we promise we won't beat you up for it.

00:46:25.01
Bill
And that's... Yeah, yeah. Should we talk about that real quick?

00:46:29.24
Mike
fifty

00:46:29.27
Bill
These motherfuckers and asking for money on podcasts. Fuck all you again. I just had to say that again. Well, fuck you.

00:46:34.72
Mara
see.

00:46:34.78
Mike
Mmm!

00:46:35.35
Bill
Fuck you. We don't want your money. The little little bit of advertising we do, it is what it is. It trickles in at $9 a month. And then, I don't know, don't buy buy yourself a coffee, not us. Anyhow, back to back to death and back to beating people up and in all that stuff.

00:46:50.12
Bill
So so here's here's the thing. and i in the so Back to my stepdad. So he had congestive heart failure, which obviously, you know, you know, fluid and buildup and blah, blah, blah. So towards the end, I mean, he went on dialysis, the whole bit, and it just got to the point where the last time he went into the hospital, um they were saying that, you know, his, the fluid buildup was to the point where they're like, and I think he was probably to just reminding me when you start talking about this stuff, when the body knows when it's going to die.

00:47:14.67
Bill
and Basically, what they were saying is they're like they can they can do this if they do dialysis. It might kill them if they don't do dialysis, just try to give like fluids stuff that might kill them.

00:47:22.74
Mara
Yeah.

00:47:25.73
Bill
So he said the best thing they can do is just make them comfortable. There's nothing else um logical. I think I don't know if even they put it that way. They basically said the most logical thing to do, make him comfortable and let him pass. And that's what, that's what happened.

00:47:39.65
Bill
You know, it was like within, i don't know, whatever time he went in in the morning, which was early, he went into the hospital before I even went to work and he died that day at four 30, I think.

00:47:49.59
Mara
yeah

00:47:50.43
Bill
So it took almost all day, but I mean, they, they drug the motherfucker up and he just, he was comfortable and he fucking died, you know, and yeah,

00:47:55.88
Mike
Yeah.

00:47:56.71
Mara
In the hospital, that is how they provide end of life care. it's that he probably could have He probably could have benefited from hospice had he signed on a little bit sooner, maybe didn't have to get to that point.

00:48:00.29
Mike
hello

00:48:06.88
Mara
but But a lot of times with kidney failure or CHF, because the person is usually so alert and oriented, you know what I mean?

00:48:07.52
Mike
Right.

00:48:07.62
Bill
Right.

00:48:15.82
Mara
They have a hard time recommending hospice because the person can still hold conversations. So it's like, If they're still acting normal, how could they be dying? But he was probably he was probably dying six months before he ended up in the hospital.

00:48:23.10
Mike
Sure.

00:48:27.63
Bill
Oh, no, no, no doubt, because he started his his run was, um I think, started in January. And then he was in the hospital seven times between the beginning of January and he died on July 1st of that year.

00:48:38.03
Mike
Ugh.

00:48:43.58
Mara
Yeah.

00:48:43.79
Bill
um and And the thing of it is, is that, you know, his hospital stays were getting a little bit longer and harder to come out of. And then he wasn't going to go on dialysis. He went on dialysis in May. um He agreed to it because he wasn't going to agree to dialysis, but did that.

00:48:57.52
Bill
But then that got to be too goddamn much.

00:48:59.20
Mara
It is.

00:48:59.41
Bill
You know, it was like, it was like one or two days a week. Then it was three. and they're like, well, you should do, should do this. Cause one day in it'd take him a day to kind of recover. And then he'd have to go in again when he felt better. And it was just his, his quality of life went away probably in March or April of that year, I would say easily.

00:49:16.17
Bill
And yeah it's, i mean, it's no, it's no way to, it's no way to just exist, you know?

00:49:20.73
Mara
Nope. And hospice could have just given him so much care, you know, so much extra.

00:49:26.06
Bill
Right. Right.

00:49:26.70
Mara
But it's, again, a lot of people think hospice is the minute you sign on to hospice, you are drugged until you die. That's what people, you know, which a lot of people do think that that's what happens, you know, so there's a lot of which in hospitals, they are going to make you very comfortable until you die.

00:49:35.37
Mike
Yeah.

00:49:41.81
Mara
But that is not that's not hospice out in the real world, because that would be considered murder.

00:49:42.22
Mike
there

00:49:46.24
Mara
And we don't murder people. um What we do is we keep people comfortable should they choose to take advantage of the comfort meds. But the funny thing is on a whole other, because this is something I can only talk about here with alcoholics and addicts.

00:49:59.79
Mike
yeah

00:49:59.89
Mara
Bill, I don't know if you would know this one, but Mike would. um Literally the level of the dose of morphine that we give someone is a pediatric dose. It's 0.25 mls, which isn't going to kill anybody.

00:50:10.63
Mike
Uh-huh. Right.

00:50:13.26
Mara
It's literally the strength of a Percocet 5. And this is the dose that people are convinced you killed my mom because you gave her morphine. It's, oh my gosh.

00:50:21.37
Bill
Oh, really? yeah

00:50:23.15
Mara
Yes. That's a huge, it's a huge, um, pre, uh, what's the word? I can't think I'm, I'm going through the meta.

00:50:29.68
Mike
Preconceived notion.

00:50:30.73
Mara
Yeah, whatever. It's a, one ah it's what the people think that literally hospice drugs you to death.

00:50:31.93
Mike
Yeah.

00:50:34.24
Mike
Yeah. you've You've given you drugs, right? Drugs are bad.

00:50:39.45
Mara
And but the morphine dose is so low. It is so low and, and people, it's not enough to kill somebody.

00:50:42.31
Mike
Right.

00:50:46.13
Mara
What happens, unfortunately, no not

00:50:46.40
Mike
Right. It's not even enough to wake you up in the morning. yeah

00:50:51.41
Mara
and true that, but it's, people don't realize that it's just, it's, ah you know, it's not very much.

00:50:53.59
Mike
Thank you. think

00:50:55.98
Bill
Thank you.

00:50:58.26
Mara
It's just enough to release, to reduce the anxiety, help the person breathe a little bit better.

00:51:01.91
Mike
Right.

00:51:04.12
Mara
But the problem is when you have people who are anxious at the end of life, as they're dying, um,

00:51:04.17
Mike
Nope.

00:51:08.95
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:51:10.06
Mara
because they have what's called terminal restlessness. So they're restless because they're dying. They can't take a deep breath. You know, there are a lot of times you'll see them like picking at the bed, picking at their clothes. I know what that looks like.

00:51:20.93
Mara
I know what that is. I know what it means. It means that person is dying. It's time to give them morphine to calm them down. You finally calm them down so they can let go and die. but what the family sees is you gave my mom morphine and then she died.

00:51:30.05
Mike
yeah

00:51:33.88
Mike
Yeah.

00:51:34.63
Mara
And that's something I have to battle against all the time because your mom was already dying.

00:51:34.61
Bill
Right.

00:51:37.82
Mike
Yeah.

00:51:39.98
Mara
We just helped her die better.

00:51:40.46
Mike
yeah

00:51:41.87
Mara
We helped her die better.

00:51:42.14
Mike
Yeah. Right.

00:51:43.40
Mara
She didn't die scared. She died better.

00:51:45.22
Mike
and see

00:51:46.05
Mara
You know, and and those are other things that I have.

00:51:46.14
Bill
right

00:51:46.17
Mike
Yeah. She got a little hit.

00:51:48.42
Mara
Nothing.

00:51:49.14
Mike
isn't it got Yeah.

00:51:49.57
Bill
hey

00:51:49.98
Mike
Right. Yeah. Fucking A, man. What's wrong with that?

00:51:53.17
Mara
Nothing.

00:51:53.55
Mike
you know Yeah, I know. Not a damn thing. I know.

00:51:56.11
Mara
Nothing.

00:51:56.70
Mike
why But again, societal and life is precious and drugs are bad. and I know. It's all fucked up.

00:52:04.01
Mara
It's a lot.

00:52:05.21
Bill
right

00:52:05.22
Mike
Yeah. Yeah, it is.

00:52:06.22
Mara
It's a lot.

00:52:07.05
Mike
I know. i Right.

00:52:12.33
Mike
I know, but what I mean, you know, and thankfully we have people like you who are out there educating people and it's, I know it's an uphill battle. It's, you know, Sisypheus with that goddamn rock pushing it up the hill, but um yeah, right.

00:52:26.10
Mara
ah

00:52:27.69
Mike
But, but you're doing the work and that's a beautiful thing. And, you know, i'll um yes, it yeah, it is.

00:52:33.54
Mara
Thank you

00:52:35.42
Mike
You know, I mean, i I'd like to think I have a pretty healthy attitude towards it. And, and right. But I know lots and lots of people don't, you know, they're, they're so confused over, know,

00:52:44.43
Mara
you.

00:52:47.57
Mike
Again, you know, life is precious and drugs are bad and and it's just dumb, you know, and and doctors are God and, you know, the medical community can fix anything.

00:53:00.42
Mike
and no yeah death is death and it's going to happen and we have to accept that and hopefully do it in the easiest way possible, you know? Right. yeah God, thumping on grandma's chest and breaking her ribs,

00:53:15.33
Mike
so she could suffer an extra five minutes. Thanks. That's, that's a, yeah, it's a wonderful thing.

00:53:19.18
Bill
Right.

00:53:20.81
Mike
Hmm.

00:53:21.09
Mara
oh And the thing is, if life is precious, then you have to, and death is a part of life, then death should be precious too.

00:53:26.97
Mike
Hmm. Yes.

00:53:29.47
Mara
Why do, you know, the why do we celebrate birth, but we hide from death and people so often die alone and in hospitals without, under fluorescent lights with all the noise out in the hallway, because people cannot give up and just support the death process and be there for their loved ones during the death process.

00:53:29.45
Bill
Right.

00:53:40.38
Mike
Yeah.

00:53:46.49
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:53:48.80
Mara
It's just, I just hope to change the narrative.

00:53:48.78
Mike
Right.

00:53:51.92
Mara
That's, that's why I eventually hope to stop working for hospice and just work for my death doula, you know, just be a death doula.

00:53:53.11
Bill
Thank you.

00:53:57.90
Mike
Right.

00:53:58.85
Mara
But, there's no money in it really. And I do need to make, I do need to make a living.

00:54:01.02
Mike
Yeah, right. Mm-hmm.

00:54:02.88
Mara
um So I just use everything that I've been taught and carry it over into my hospice business.

00:54:03.31
Mike
right

00:54:08.85
Mara
But really, if I could just, if I could travel the world talking about teaching people to not be afraid of death, you know, it would it would make my dreams come true because, but I probably sound like a weirdo to most of the population talking about that.

00:54:22.29
Mike
No. Yeah.

00:54:23.11
Bill
I, you know, the the thing that is, and I, and I wonder too, if, if even people that, and maybe we had some people drop off to, you know, from this episode thinking the fuck are they talking about?

00:54:23.75
Mara
Yeah.

00:54:33.25
Bill
And you know what, if people don't get it, they don't get it. But you know, the, the thing of it is like Mike just said, um you know, how'd you say, would you just say you think you have a pretty good grasp on or idea of, you know, and how, I, I mean, and I think I, I've come to that, you know, I'm not where, like I was talking before, I mean, not' where I'm not afraid of it anymore.

00:54:39.38
Mara
Thank

00:54:42.15
Mike
yeah

00:54:48.22
Bill
But that is the thing, you know, like we were talking about before is that, you know, that having, having dignity in every part of it, you know, we've, especially us people, you know, we've gone through, not especially, but in, in specific to talking about us and gone through all this fucking garbage, you know, and pulled our way out of it and hopefully live decent lives and whatever.

00:55:05.38
Bill
And when it comes down to that moment, I mean, yeah, i I guess maybe it's a control thing. I want to, I want to die the way I want to fucking die, you know?

00:55:12.23
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:55:12.97
Bill
And if it comes down to it where, um and um I actually, I've got the folder here with my will. I'm looking, I didn't don't know if I have a do not resuscitate or whatever the thing is. I thought I didn't hear. Note to self, I'm going to look that up because once again, I think my kids would know better. And I think our sister would know better.

00:55:28.16
Bill
You know, but I don't want to want to be hooked up to a fucking machine.

00:55:31.94
Mara
and

00:55:32.06
Bill
I don't want to be I don't want to live by artificial means. um I don't want to be again that that last what would freak the fuck out of me is it like you like we've just been talking about is if somebody's there breaking the fucking ribs in my body, you know, in and I'm conscious go what the fuck are you doing and I got to suffer in that shit.

00:55:49.91
Bill
I'm already on literally on death's bed. Now I got to be literally fucking broken. And now I'm scared and I probably shit myself. And yeah, that's a great way to fucking die. Right.

00:55:59.80
Mara
It's not.

00:56:00.05
Mike
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

00:56:00.93
Mara
I mean, obviously you would be you would be a full code now because you're still somewhat of a healthy you know healthy guy, but you would have to put down on your advanced directives. If I reached the point where I most likely am at the end of it is very unlikely that chest compressions are going to help me live a decent life. I do not want them.

00:56:18.62
Bill
right

00:56:18.70
Mara
But here's the thing. i could put that on paper. You could put that on paper. But the minute we become unable to speak for ourselves, our power ah power of attorney steps up for us.

00:56:25.56
Bill
yeah out in the street.

00:56:29.06
Mara
And I have seen people put in there in their advanced directives, I do not want to be full coach. Everything you just said and their children step in because they can no longer talk and legally they can reverse it all.

00:56:41.71
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:56:41.85
Bill
Right.

00:56:41.94
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:56:42.50
Mara
So that's why I still want to just say, you know, have conversations with your loved ones. i I have friends who are paramedics and I talk to them all the time about this and they'll text me and they'll go, my God, Mara, last night I picked up an 89-year-old man from a nursing home and he's still a full code. We had to do chest compressions on him. It's traumatic for the paramedic.

00:57:03.04
Mara
I mean, and did he live?

00:57:03.04
Mike
the

00:57:03.21
Bill
Right.

00:57:04.89
Mara
Hell no, he didn't live.

00:57:05.80
Mike
No, right. Mm-hmm.

00:57:09.80
Bill
Right.

00:57:10.33
Mara
It's devastating.

00:57:11.45
Mike
say I mean, you know, and as you're saying, no, you're saying, and I'm, I'm actually being serious about this.

00:57:14.62
Mara
It's just,

00:57:18.73
Mike
see Right. I'm, I'm relatively healthy, full code. Fuck that. Now, if I'm, if I'm, if it's time to kick off, it's time to kick off, you know what, going to give me another year.

00:57:30.30
Mike
And, but in the, in that year, I've got to go to the hospital fucking twice a week and i doctors and, take a bunch of garbage. It's going to make me shit myself and, you know, get, have suicidal thoughts and, ah you know, all the disclaimers on the drug commercials and all.

00:57:46.53
Mike
I don't want any of that. I don't, when it's my, when my body says i can't function normally,

00:57:48.33
Bill
Right.

00:57:54.39
Mike
I'm done. It's fine. I'm cool with that. i am very cool with that.

00:57:59.19
Bill
Right.

00:57:59.27
Mike
You know, I wish, I wish everybody was like that. Okay. It's time. Body's kicking off yeah and I don't want a bunch of chemicals and I don't want a bunch of, you know, cutting on me and cutting things out of me. And, you know, I mean, I'm still a smoker, right?

00:58:13.56
Mike
I see that commercial where that lady's, her entire face is carved off. You know, don't pick up cigarettes.

00:58:18.67
Mara
a

00:58:20.20
Mike
Well, fuck you. Let them do that to you. So you can what? So you can live another couple of years looking like that. Fuck all that. When it's time, it's time. I'm done.

00:58:30.07
Mara
I wish everyone was like you, but we've learned that in recovery, I think, too.

00:58:30.45
Bill
Yeah.

00:58:32.43
Mike
couldn' Right, exactly. ah Acceptance. Jesus Christ, man. You know, it's going to happen. I accept that. i'm I'm fine. When I'm done here, I'm done here.

00:58:44.15
Mike
and And hopefully I'm done with everything. But, you know, that's the atheist in me. um I just want to be fucking done with all of it.

00:58:48.41
Mara
Well,

00:58:52.36
Mara
Well, I don't know if that's going to happen because I do think energy will shift, but hopefully you won't be coming back as something else. You'll just be.

00:58:58.99
Mike
Well, no, hopefully I'll become worm food and a little worm can, can live for a couple of days on me.

00:59:05.27
Mara
Oh.

00:59:05.49
Mike
That's fine. You know, a tree can grow. Well, I mean, that's what I really want. You know, I want a fruit tree planted on me. That way everybody can come by and eat me every year.

00:59:14.67
Mara
You could do, Jesus Christ.

00:59:17.11
Mike
yeah

00:59:17.40
Mara
You can do, you can see, you can actually put that in your, you could have a green burial.

00:59:21.31
Mike
Oh, I know.

00:59:22.12
Mara
Okay, good.

00:59:22.48
Mike
Yeah, right. Yeah. The pods. I know.

00:59:24.63
Mara
Well, I'll make it happen.

00:59:24.75
Mike
Oh, cool.

00:59:25.77
Mara
Just hire, hire me as your death doula.

00:59:26.58
Mike
Thank you.

00:59:27.79
Mara
I won't charge you.

00:59:28.02
Mike
Absolutely. hey

00:59:29.33
Mara
I won't charge you.

00:59:30.18
Mike
Oh, no, I'll pay you.

00:59:30.39
Bill
what I told him,

00:59:31.48
Mike
You're doing the job. I'm going to pay you for it.

00:59:33.00
Mara
me

00:59:33.19
Bill
yeah

00:59:33.79
Mike
Take care of my ass.

00:59:35.07
Mara
I will.

00:59:35.29
Mike
I think a nice apple or a pear tree, something like that, you know, nice meaty fruit. Everybody can come by and eat me every year.

00:59:42.86
Mara
All right. I'll make sure it happens.

00:59:44.20
Bill
yes It was like 10, probably 10 or 12 years ago or whatever it was. There was a, do you remember that when they came out with the, you can get your ashes pressed into a record mic?

00:59:52.78
Mike
Yeah. Yeah.

00:59:53.77
Bill
Yeah, so i think I think Mike posted something about that on um Facebook and whatever. And he and I go back and forth about the things that we will do to each other's remains. and If either one of us dies from alcohol or drugs, you know, if we, we you know, slip off the, yeah, relapse and die, that what's what we are, either one of us are going to do to the other one's remains by, you know, because of that.

01:00:05.12
Mike
Right. We relapse and die.

01:00:13.46
Bill
And so I told Mike the one time, I said, okay, because he was talking about the tree thing. I said, no, no, no. I said, if you drink or use again and you die, I said, I'm getting your remains pressed into an Eric Clapton record.

01:00:24.62
Mara
Oh, he will kill you.

01:00:25.45
Bill
And yeah, he hates.

01:00:26.68
Mike
Yeah.

01:00:27.44
Bill
He's like, I'm i'm never using again.

01:00:29.41
Mike
Right. hit Keep my ass sober.

01:00:31.65
Mara
Not a Clapton record.

01:00:31.67
Bill
yeah

01:00:31.95
Mike
if you

01:00:32.91
Mara
not a claton record

01:00:34.43
Bill
it's just, it's just kind of funny, but I mean, yeah, it's, it's the thing, you know, it is, it's about like you, you just said, I mean, it is, this is part of that recovery thing. You know, it's the, um, like you just said, Mike, the acceptance part of it, whatever it is, what it fucking is, you know?

01:00:42.95
Mara
Thank you.

01:00:47.61
Bill
And, um, recently when I went in, when I had this whole leg wound, Mara, I mean, I went in and did all this different stuff and it's actually like, Oh, have you done this before? Have you done that before? So she signs me up for the whole, you know, the, uh, Cola guard thing, the shit in a bucket thing, you know?

01:01:00.43
Bill
And, um,

01:01:00.98
Mike
Ha ha ha ha ha.

01:01:01.73
Bill
And, you know, I mean, quite honestly, I mean, I'm 50, just turned 57 years old. I never had a, cool I had a colonoscopy years ago, you know, should have gone in, should have done a lot of things. But um part of me, there's a little bit of nervousness to it, but I resolve myself to everything because they're like all this different stuff that could have been going on. They're like, well, you know,

01:01:19.08
Bill
has has been this, this, and this, you know, maybe you have, you don't have good blood flow. That's why your legs are healing. Maybe you're diabetic. um Maybe you're this, maybe you're that we want to get this checked out too. You know, you want to get while we're here, you know, let's check your butthole, but we're going to do it by mail.

01:01:32.79
Bill
So I'm like all these different things, but I, you know, I'm,

01:01:34.24
Mara
oh yeah

01:01:35.65
Bill
And I thought about all of it and I resolved myself to the fact, I'm like, okay, if any of these things are fucking true, what the fuck am I going to do about it? You know, worrying about it is not going to help.

01:01:46.73
Bill
um If it happens, I'll fucking deal with it. You know, but I mean, quite honestly, when, if you think a little bit deeper about that, I'm like, okay, like you just said, Mike, is there whatever, whatever the thing is that I, that I would have had, you know, that diabetes and all those different things, I mean, medications, whatever you can deal with that shit, insulins, blah, blah, blah, you know, but let's say it's, you know, some sort of cancer.

01:02:05.95
Mike
Right?

01:02:06.04
Bill
Okay. So whatever type of cancer it is.

01:02:07.85
Mara
God forbid.

01:02:08.07
Bill
um

01:02:08.84
Mara
Sorry, I have to say.

01:02:09.08
Bill
Yeah. I mean, no, I know.

01:02:10.60
Mara
this is

01:02:10.80
Bill
and And that's, that's fine.

01:02:10.84
Mike
Mm-hmm.

01:02:12.16
Bill
I'm not, I'm not superstitious. I don't, I don't worry about that. If I, I just figure if I'm going to get it, I'm going to get it. You know, I do the things that I try to do to make, keep myself healthy.

01:02:17.33
Mike
no

01:02:19.76
Bill
If it, if all that shit doesn't work, I've done my best. yeah But yeah. but Then I'm like, okay, so what is the number one, what's the prognosis and what's, what is the, what is the plan?

01:02:31.01
Bill
And, you know wondering, like, again, to your point, Mike, do I want to go into the doctor all the time to eat all these different things, suicidal thoughts, shitting myself? Do I, do I completely lose my quality of life on a day-to-day basis just to get another, an extra six months, you know?

01:02:44.90
Mike
Right.

01:02:45.86
Bill
And if that's the case, I'm not doing any of it, you know, because I'm just going to deal with what I get, quit my fucking job, whatever money I have, go hang out with my family, my friends and my kids, and then just let it happen because I don't want to, I don't want to be that, you know.

01:02:48.58
Mike
Nope.

01:02:55.86
Mike
Yep.

01:03:01.76
Mike
Mm-hmm.

01:03:01.88
Bill
And I watched, again, I watched my stepdad's quality of life, not his, not his problem. it wasn't his fault. No, but I watched his quality of life decline. We watched our mom's quality of life decline.

01:03:09.65
Mara
Thank you.

01:03:12.03
Bill
Again, nothing that they could have done differently.

01:03:12.11
Mike
Right? Yeah?

01:03:13.99
Bill
Both of them did what they needed to do. But if I had a choice, a conscious choice to make, that, okay, on this end here, I can have a good six months. It's a downhill thing.

01:03:24.82
Mike
right

01:03:24.89
Bill
The last few months, maybe you got a ah good three and then, you know, they they go down by the score level goes down from a seven to a six to a five, et cetera. um Fine.

01:03:35.41
Mike
yeah

01:03:35.66
Bill
or do i Or do I deal with this? shit if i Do I piss and shit myself, lose my hair, throw up every goddamn day?

01:03:40.71
Mike
Yeah, right. Or live in a two for fucking two more years.

01:03:43.48
Bill
Yeah.

01:03:43.51
Mike
No, thank you.

01:03:43.84
Bill
yeah And let all that go on for a year and a half to get an extra six months. Fuck that.

01:03:48.94
Mara
Yeah, you'd be surprised.

01:03:50.26
Bill
I don't want to do that.

01:03:50.71
Mara
Maybe you wouldn't be surprised, but a lot of people just want those last moments.

01:03:52.42
Mike
No.

01:03:55.28
Mara
And I and i do honor that. And I hold space for people for people who are going through that because I get it.

01:03:57.65
Mike
Sure.

01:04:01.00
Mara
But the thing is, if you can start having those discussions early, like before you before your kids are even, you' you know, I've actually done some volunteer work um with

01:04:04.80
Bill
Right.

01:04:11.44
Mara
terminally ill children, which is not something that I love. It's not as, you know, it breaks my heart.

01:04:15.29
Bill
No.

01:04:17.15
Mara
Kids are not, they are not scared of death like adults are.

01:04:17.25
Mike
Right.

01:04:19.85
Mike
Yeah. Right.

01:04:20.72
Mara
They are not because they haven't had a chance to be socialized to fear it. Kids are very, they're very black and white and they're just very much like, you know, they actually teach me to be less afraid of their death when working with kids.

01:04:24.61
Mike
Mm hmm.

01:04:24.69
Bill
right

01:04:31.29
Mike
Yes.

01:04:32.46
Mara
And, um, You know, again, I don't love it. It hurts my heart, but it's it's an attitude that it's like, they're just like, well, let's just have fun until it's time. You know what I mean?

01:04:40.86
Mike
Yes.

01:04:41.24
Mara
And I i remember when I was a um very little, my best friend in the world was my cousin. And he actually ended up dying of cancer when he was four. And it was very sad, but he just played until the end.

01:04:50.12
Mike
Yeah.

01:04:53.58
Mara
You know what I mean?

01:04:54.15
Mike
yeah

01:04:54.38
Mara
And and he didn't fight it. And he was a kid. And he was a kid until he until he passed away. Or I like to say died. Why do we say passed away?

01:05:01.44
Mike
it

01:05:02.42
Mara
That's another thing, passed.

01:05:02.61
Mike
Right. here

01:05:03.66
Mara
until he died. And he just, um you know, and, and if we could just start having those conversations early with our loved ones, then maybe when the, the natural act of dying starts to occur, people won't go into fear mode where they're like we have to stop it.

01:05:11.21
Mike
Right.

01:05:18.25
Mike
Yeah.

01:05:19.50
Mara
We have, let me find out you can stop death.

01:05:21.53
Mike
Yeah, right.

01:05:21.66
Mara
Let me.

01:05:22.05
Mike
Yeah, let me know when that happens and maybe I'll play that game. But until then, right, I'm going to play until I can anymore.

01:05:29.89
Mara
yeah I mean,

01:05:30.30
Bill
Right.

01:05:31.23
Mara
Yeah.

01:05:31.30
Bill
And all all of our all of our family and friends out there, at least for Mike and I, it's episode 188. Make a note.

01:05:37.01
Mara
No.

01:05:37.35
Bill
yeah If you ever run, if you ever run sure of our wishes, just go back and listen to this episode.

01:05:37.44
Mara
and

01:05:40.76
Mike
Right, it's on the internet now.

01:05:41.73
Bill
And yeah yeah, it is.

01:05:42.75
Mike
is that legally binding?

01:05:44.91
Mara
call

01:05:45.81
Bill
It is like, like I, like I said before, we were talking about, you know, a couple of weeks ago and I use it again. we use the term lightly, but intellectual property, this is copywritten. It's, this is considered legal, legal shit.

01:05:56.76
Bill
So, you know, we probably, probably have a witness.

01:05:57.10
Mike
Sure.

01:05:57.36
Mara
no

01:05:58.58
Bill
Are you, you witnessing this Mara? You and your, your, your death doula shit.

01:06:00.30
Mike
Yeah.

01:06:00.40
Mara
I'm your witness.

01:06:00.74
Mike
The death doula.

01:06:01.56
Mara
ah Trust me, I've witnessed all this stuff. Yes, i I'm a third party representative.

01:06:04.39
Mike
right

01:06:06.24
Mara
I see it. I heard it.

01:06:08.72
Mike
its

01:06:09.37
Bill
But seriously, tell us tell us a little bit more about, because that was the whole thing.

01:06:09.42
Mara
Thank you.

01:06:12.59
Bill
And obviously we saw, um i don't know if I saw it on, it doesn't matter.

01:06:13.63
Mike
yeah

01:06:16.50
Bill
We saw it on one of these social media things, your whole thing that you're doing. You know, you're the thing that you just and you can't make any money at.

01:06:22.49
Mike
death doa

01:06:23.81
Mara
Yes.

01:06:23.79
Bill
Yeah, your death doula thingy. So tell us.

01:06:25.12
Mike
Right. So, I mean, you know, i clearly people, not clearly, but some people know what a doula is. It's ah usually a birthing thing, but clearly this is the other side of that.

01:06:32.94
Mara
Yes. Other side.

01:06:36.28
Mike
Yeah.

01:06:36.65
Mara
Yes.

01:06:36.69
Mike
Right. So, yes. So tell us about a death doula.

01:06:40.26
Mara
So we labor into life and we labor out of life. So death most of the time.

01:06:43.58
Mike
Hmm.

01:06:46.22
Mara
and you know, is it, is ah is i almost said an adventure. I'm tired.

01:06:50.10
Mike
Yeah.

01:06:50.33
Bill
well

01:06:50.43
Mara
It's been a long day.

01:06:50.56
Mike
Sure.

01:06:51.86
Mara
It can be though. It's a transition.

01:06:53.02
Mike
Sure.

01:06:53.93
Mara
It's a journey. It's, it's not an event. It's a, you know, it's not, it's not, it doesn't just happen unless God forbid, there's something horrible that a person dies instantly. You know, we do know those things happen, but, but most of the time death is a process and it's a labor out of life and a death doula is,

01:07:03.55
Mike
Right.

01:07:11.12
Mara
which is i so I went to death doula school. um my My friend and my mentor, Casey, the death doula Casey, she started death doula school. And it was really cool because when I first started

01:07:22.24
Bill
Thank you.

01:07:24.15
Mara
working as a hospice liaison, i joined one of those like community groups where people can, like every Monday, the West Park community group, everyone can put their business card on the page and that's how you network, right? So I saw that she was deaf doula and I was like, that's what I want to do.

01:07:41.69
Mara
i don't want to to I don't want to do hospice social work because you're still bound to the regulations of Medicaid and Medicare and insurance companies and charting and meeting guidelines and all of those things. I just want to, I want to help someone die well.

01:07:56.91
Mara
I want to be with them through the whole process. You know, that's what being a death duel is. So I like ah the creeper that I am, i'm got in her DMs and I was like, can we have coffee? And we stayed in touch. And and that the day that we met, she kind of explained to me what she did.

01:08:12.47
Mara
as far as being a death doula. And she told me, you know, my dream is to start a death doula school and train more death doulas so we can start changing the world, you know, changing the attitude on death.

01:08:21.74
Mike
yeah

01:08:23.43
Mara
and And sure enough, a couple of years later, she started her death doula school and I was one of her first students. And she had, you know, a 40 hour class training us on, you know, teaching us about what it means to be a death doula.

01:08:37.41
Mara
And I got the certification last July. And then i eventually um started my LLC last month. And I haven't really done anything with it yet.

01:08:49.20
Mara
But I did want to start my branding and start you know um talking about it publicly and they at least give it a name. um But really, for now, I use my death doula training in my hospice liaison job.

01:08:56.89
Mike
Hmm.

01:09:02.78
Mara
you know That's kind of what sets me apart. from just being a liaison. i do I do go and do the bedside visits when someone's dying. I do you know ah do a little bit more because of my death doula training. And eventually, when I don't have to rely on my income to support me, who knows what will happen? Maybe I'll win the lottery. Who knows?

01:09:24.74
Mara
But eventually, I would like to be a full-time death doula.

01:09:24.76
Mike
yeah

01:09:27.18
Mara
The problem with that is It's not paid for by insurance or Medicaid. It's only available to people who can afford to pay cash for it out of pocket.

01:09:34.87
Mike
Right.

01:09:35.04
Mara
And and of course the people I like to work with, right?

01:09:35.59
Mike
Right.

01:09:37.80
Bill
I like everybody. So I get the time to do that.

01:09:38.82
Mara
I like to work with everybody, but of course my people,

01:09:38.94
Bill
Yeah. Yeah.

01:09:41.75
Mike
yeah

01:09:41.87
Mara
are most likely the ones that don't have an extra two, $3,000. So right now I just get to kind of do it on the side with the people that I know need me.

01:09:45.79
Mike
right

01:09:51.04
Mara
But yeah, so just like a birth doula helps someone labor into the world, a death doula helps someone labor out. um But a death doula also can start supporting the person while they're still seeking treatment. So you may have gotten a terminal cancer diagnosis. You know that eventually you are going to die from this cancer, but the doctor has told you that doing this chemo or whatever will give you an extra year.

01:10:16.09
Mara
I'll still support that person during that process, but what am I going to do for someone who's not actively at the end? You know, I'm going to do things like help them interview hospice companies, you know, help them maybe go with them to provide support during their doctor's appointments, help them maybe do a legacy project so that they can leave something when they're gone for their families all the way through to the end. So,

01:10:40.18
Mara
also being with them as they labor out of this world. Kind of working alongside the hospice company to help them die die a lovely death. So what does that look like? Well, sometimes for example, somebody might be bed bound and be spending most of their time on their back and staring up at the ceiling.

01:10:59.43
Mike
Mm-hmm.

01:10:59.92
Mara
Everybody knows, maybe not everybody, hearing is the last thing to go. So you pretty much hear until the end.

01:11:04.65
Mike
Mm-hmm.

01:11:07.74
Mara
What kind of music do you want at the end when you can't really hear what's going on, but you when you can't see what's going on, but you can still hear? What would you like me to put up on to project onto the ceiling for you to look at? Do you want it to be home videos? Do you want it to be a baseball game?

01:11:20.94
Mara
Do you want it to be, you know, um the time that. you know, the one time the Browns won

01:11:26.99
Mike
yeah

01:11:27.45
Bill
It was the Packers.

01:11:27.54
Mara
um you know what

01:11:28.60
Mike
ha

01:11:30.15
Mara
against, ah wait, who did we just win against? but

01:11:32.38
Mike
ah Green Bay Packers.

01:11:32.66
Bill
It was the Packers.

01:11:33.67
Mara
Green Bay. It was Green Bay.

01:11:34.67
Mike
Right. Yeah.

01:11:35.87
Mara
Because i was in I was in Chicago and it was like the Bears were losing it. You know, the Bears were the bears won and the Browns won on the same day, which it was like insanely, you know, doesn't ever happen.

01:11:46.37
Mike
excuseness

01:11:46.47
Mara
So I remember that day going, holy crap, all the underdogs are winning.

01:11:46.97
Mike
right

01:11:49.87
Mara
So yeah, but putting ah putting a game on the ceiling, an a music video, just whatever, just start talking to them.

01:11:50.99
Bill
Yeah.

01:11:58.31
Mara
How do you want to die? And I'm here to help you die that way.

01:11:59.83
Mike
yeah

01:12:02.73
Mike
Beautiful.

01:12:02.91
Bill
And, and you know, the, the thing of it is though, and as you're explaining all that stuff, so, I mean, that sounds to me, although it's ah it's a whole different category, um but I mean, clearly a needed category, but there's so much success out there with um coaches, sober coaches, business coaches, life coaches, all these different types of things.

01:12:20.94
Bill
It seems like the same kind of idea, just obviously over there. It, I would, it it kind of surprises me that, that there's not more of a market for that. And I get it. I mean,

01:12:31.54
Bill
not everyone can, not everyone has ah a sober coach or a life coach or whatever the deal is or a business coach. um But I mean, people are out there and can afford those, which I would think once again, sooner or later people could afford, you know, and you should be able to, I would think, I would hope that you'd be able to make a living doing that. It just, it seems like it's the mindset of people that it's the coaching mindset, right? But in a different level.

01:12:53.84
Mara
I think so. Yeah, I think so. but coaching people through the end of their life. Yes. But if you, if you, but we're, what are my barriers in this?

01:12:59.25
Bill
Right.

01:13:02.66
Mara
So the first barrier is first helping someone understand that they need to surrender to the fact that they are dying.

01:13:04.10
Mike
meaning

01:13:08.62
Bill
Well, yeah.

01:13:08.71
Mara
That within, it that within itself is huge.

01:13:08.68
Mike
Right.

01:13:11.28
Mike
Right.

01:13:11.40
Mara
I, I, I'm not going to hire a death doula unless I truly believe that death, death is coming for me.

01:13:11.39
Bill
Right. Yeah,

01:13:16.50
Mara
So it's, ah you know, the, it's, it's an except, you know, so a lot of it starts off as just trying to educate people that, what you know,

01:13:16.52
Mike
Right.

01:13:16.98
Bill
that's a good point.

01:13:24.61
Mike
Mm-hmm.

01:13:25.15
Mara
death isn't just going to come on a Monday. I mean, unfortunately, again, I'm going to say it does happen for people that way. I know people who've been diagnosed pancreatic cancer and they're dead in 11 days. The family didn't even see it coming, you know, but for the most part, we are given, you know, we are given signs.

01:13:34.35
Mike
Right.

01:13:41.45
Mara
We are given information that it's coming. I wish we were in a state where you could choose medication medication-assisted death. We don't have that in Ohio. we will youth We will euthanize our dogs, but we will not allow, you know, we, you know, but I'm a, I'm a huge proponent.

01:13:50.44
Mike
Mm-hmm.

01:13:53.50
Mike
Yes. yes

01:13:57.03
Mara
I'm a huge supporter for it. I think it needs to be passed here in Ohio, but it's, it's still not there yet.

01:14:01.53
Mike
Oh, i yeah, it needs to be, again, accepted. Right. Dr. Kravorkian had the right fucking idea.

01:14:08.10
Mara
Watch.

01:14:08.13
Mike
i mean, he was a creep. He was a creep, but, you know, he had the right idea. Absolutely. yeah Like you said, we we send our pets. Our pets are suffering. Let's stop the suffering. But we can't do that for grandma.

01:14:19.60
Mara
Nope. And I'm telling you, watch someone die of ALS and literally sit by them every day of their life and watch them lose their faculties, but still keep their ability to think completely 100%.

01:14:20.35
Mike
No. Mm-hmm.

01:14:31.01
Mike
Yes.

01:14:32.70
Mara
So nothing has changed in their brain. They still imagine, but your body's completely gone.

01:14:35.16
Mike
Mm-hmm.

01:14:37.33
Bill
Right.

01:14:38.99
Mara
and And there's no other type of, ah can't imagine unless you have the money that some people have where they can do the things where they get control of computer with their eyeballs and they can do all those things, but most people don't have that option.

01:14:48.35
Mike
Mm-hmm. Right.

01:14:51.62
Mike
Right.

01:14:51.78
Mara
So, you know what I mean?

01:14:51.80
Bill
right

01:14:52.94
Mara
So it's just, it's, it's devastating. What if that person, why don't they get to choose? and And the thing is I don't get to choose for someone else to be euthanized.

01:15:01.07
Mike
Of course not.

01:15:01.59
Mara
That person chooses for themselves while they're still alert and oriented enough to do it.

01:15:01.75
Mike
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

01:15:06.79
Mara
So that's a whole other fricking ball of wax, but whatever.

01:15:08.79
Mike
Mm hmm.

01:15:09.94
Mara
But anyways,

01:15:10.25
Mike
Mm hmm.

01:15:10.35
Bill
Right.

01:15:11.29
Mara
I don't know what we were talking about, but yeah, being a death doula is just basically meeting with that person and helping them.

01:15:13.89
Mike
Yes.

01:15:16.97
Mara
But then there's the whole financial aspect of it, right? So if I have someone who wants to hire me while they're still well, I'm going to have to charge them whether or not they stay alive or not.

01:15:19.77
Mike
Right.

01:15:27.29
Mara
So sometimes having that conversation with someone kind of turns them off because they're like, well, these are your prices if I live for six months.

01:15:27.39
Mike
Mm hmm.

01:15:27.65
Bill
right

01:15:34.14
Mara
Well, no, these are your prices no matter what. So

01:15:36.80
Mike
right.

01:15:37.25
Mara
ah This is for this many meetings and this many things plus a legacy project.

01:15:39.74
Mike
Mm-hmm. Right.

01:15:42.32
Mara
However, if you die before we get your legacy project done, I still am going to get paid because this is my income. You know, so it's, it's sticky.

01:15:48.79
Mike
Yeah. Right.

01:15:49.71
Bill
Mm

01:15:50.65
Mara
i haven't quite figured it all out.

01:15:51.48
Mike
Mm-hmm.

01:15:52.85
Mara
um But I do know that I'm, I do this for one reason and one reason only. And it's because I want to destigmatize death and just educate and help people die better.

01:16:02.75
Mike
Mm-hmm.

01:16:06.32
Mara
And,

01:16:06.80
Mike
Yes.

01:16:08.04
Mara
Whatever that takes.

01:16:08.23
Mike
and but Yeah, that's in that's fantastic. You know, I kind of envy you having that calling, you know. I'm a goddamn driver truck for a living, you know.

01:16:20.43
Mara
You can come do volunteer.

01:16:21.02
Mike
ah

01:16:21.55
Mara
you can We hire hospice volunteers all the time.

01:16:22.48
Mike
All right.

01:16:24.12
Mara
You can come volunteer and once a month. Once a month you can come and sit with someone.

01:16:28.70
Mike
We'll talk. We'll talk.

01:16:29.50
Mara
ah Play drums.

01:16:30.52
Bill
yeah

01:16:31.12
Mara
Definitely.

01:16:31.48
Mike
Yeah. Well, I'm dragging my drugs.

01:16:33.80
Mara
I know.

01:16:34.02
Mike
Yeah. I have a guitar. I can play that.

01:16:37.59
Mara
Yes.

01:16:38.75
Mike
Yeah. Yeah. Or just sit with somebody and, you know, shoot the shit with them.

01:16:42.28
Mara
Shoot the shit. Exactly.

01:16:43.07
Bill
Right.

01:16:43.43
Mike
Yeah.

01:16:43.99
Mara
it matter It matters.

01:16:43.98
Mike
Yeah. I, it does.

01:16:45.19
Mara
It matters.

01:16:46.62
Mike
It does, you know, right.

01:16:47.31
Mara
It makes such a difference.

01:16:48.87
Mike
I mean, my mother was insane and and whatever. That's a whole nother conversation, but she, uh, for a long time, she did work with like elderly people and nursing homes and stuff like that.

01:16:55.74
Mara
Hmm.

01:17:01.93
Mike
And, um,

01:17:02.51
Bill
Really?

01:17:03.23
Mike
Yeah, yeah. You know, so I mean, I was around that a lot when I was like a teenager. And and I do understand what it does for something to go visit somebody to spend a little time with somebody who's in that kind of situation and how it makes their lives better.

01:17:19.64
Mike
You know? Yeah. So I understand that. Absolutely.

01:17:23.88
Mara
Yeah, it's awesome.

01:17:25.28
Bill
Well, and the other thing, too, is that, i you know, i I mean, I get it, though. it all Everything, the end I don't want to say, the maybe it is the unfortunate thing. Everything comes down come down or comes down to money, you know.

01:17:36.66
Bill
but you know and And I understand people are like, well, what do I get for this?

01:17:36.65
Mike
Yo.

01:17:40.44
Bill
But if I don't do all of this, um it's just like it's just like anything else. You know, the you know people say that, I mean... Whether it's ah an electrician or a death doula or whatever it is, you know you're you're paying me X number of dollars for the for the time and expertise, not for how long it takes or or whatever is it literally involved. You're paying for my expertise.

01:18:01.08
Bill
you know Just because an electrician can come in and fix something in in seven minutes that would have taken you 14 days to fix, you've got to pay him $500, you're paying for his or her expertise, not for the time.

01:18:12.45
Bill
And the same thing with with you or or anyone who's guiding somebody like that. you know if you If you've got this plan, this is what I do. this is the This is the thing that you're paying for, and we're going to get to whatever level.

01:18:24.62
Bill
Hopefully, we're going to get to to Z yeah in this you know in this in this A to Z thing.

01:18:26.53
Mara
Yes.

01:18:29.72
Bill
Hopefully, we're going to get to Z, but yeah if we only get to LMNOP, you're it's it. I get paid, you know?

01:18:35.69
Mara
Yeah.

01:18:35.91
Bill
Um, and they should be, I don't know that everything that you've just been talking about, which is just kind of mind blowing to me, how much you've, you've taken from, again, I keep bringing up this past experience stuff. That's beautiful. Taking all of these things.

01:18:48.53
Bill
Cause I mean, you know, like Mike says, he drives goddamn truck. Um, i've been I've been collecting, you know, in the collection business for 30 fucking years. When is all that experience going to translate into something useful in this world?

01:19:01.65
Mike
Right.

01:19:01.82
Bill
You know, i mean, Mike, at least at some point you could, you could drive people, you know, take a little fucking truck.

01:19:02.01
Mike
Yeah.

01:19:07.41
Bill
You're feeding people, you know, I mean, i i mean, granted there, there is a trickle down effect with what we do with the type of work that we do with the place that I work for and what the kind of money we're collecting on.

01:19:08.76
Mike
right yeah

01:19:17.27
Bill
Yes, there's a trickle down effect. But um like you said, Mara, all these different things you went through and now you get to use all this to do this beautiful thing for these individuals. You know, it's it's amazing.

01:19:28.91
Bill
It is.

01:19:28.96
Mara
it's a, but you guys could do it too. I mean, we really could. It's just, it's really, it's just, I don't know, helping the, helping the people who are the lost souls. And, but trust me, I help a lot of non-lost souls too.

01:19:38.95
Bill
Right.

01:19:41.29
Mara
You know, the ones that have lived great lives and have money and are dying in beautiful assisted living facilities with tons of family. You know, those are beautiful experiences too, because, you know, what's that like?

01:19:52.51
Mara
But it's just, you know, it's nice.

01:19:53.23
Mike
right.

01:19:54.71
Mara
It's nice. ah to be able to see all walks of life. And the thing is, is death is the great equalizer.

01:20:00.78
Mike
right

01:20:00.85
Mara
So the homeless man in the, in the, in the nursing home,

01:20:00.97
Bill
right

01:20:04.35
Mara
in in East Cleveland is going to die the same way as the as the millionaire in Westlake. They're both going to die exactly the same. You know what I mean?

01:20:12.03
Mike
and

01:20:12.20
Bill
right

01:20:12.51
Mara
So I get an opportunity to to support them both in that process. And, and you know, it is. It's awesome. and it It's a weird thing to say, but it is it's true.

01:20:22.82
Mara
Death is going to, it's coming for all of us.

01:20:23.35
Mike
Yeah.

01:20:24.98
Mara
And the only thing that's going to make it different is is how we choose to look at it.

01:20:26.03
Mike
Yeah.

01:20:30.54
Mara
That's it.

01:20:30.55
Mike
Yeah. i and and and And getting help from a caring person who understands it. That's that's wonderful. And unfortunately, most people don't get that.

01:20:39.19
Bill
Right.

01:20:41.87
Mara
Yeah.

01:20:42.10
Bill
Right.

01:20:42.30
Mike
and every And everybody should. Everybody should. Everyone should have someone to help them along. You know, we all need help. and we We learned that somewhere, too.

01:20:52.50
Mara
Cruising to the choir.

01:20:52.75
Mike
We all need a little help.

01:20:52.83
Bill
Right.

01:20:53.99
Mike
Yes. And and yeah, that's that's great that you're at least putting a dent in that.

01:20:55.06
Bill
right

01:21:01.27
Mara
Trying.

01:21:02.16
Mike
Yeah, I know. Well, no, no, you are. You're putting a dent in it.

01:21:04.17
Mara
but Okay. I am.

01:21:05.22
Mike
Yeah. Yes.

01:21:06.08
Mara
I am.

01:21:06.28
Mike
You're scratching scratching the surface, whatever.

01:21:07.96
Mara
Thank you.

01:21:08.52
Mike
i mean, we can't, you know, i like we see on here all the time, all we're trying to do is make our little corner of the world a better place.

01:21:14.85
Bill
Mm-hmm. Right.

01:21:15.10
Mike
We're not going to save the entire world, but this little space that we occupy, if we can make it a little bit better for those immediately around us, that's all we can do.

01:21:15.39
Bill
right

01:21:25.31
Mike
And that's a beautiful, and you're fucking doing it.

01:21:27.63
Mara
I am.

01:21:27.90
Bill
Yeah.

01:21:28.16
Mara
I'm grateful.

01:21:29.05
Bill
Well, and yeah, that's, that is the thing. I mean, we yeah, well, like Mike was just saying, we're, we're a small little podcast with not a huge audience, but um we have, but we have a solid, a solid following of the people that there's people that get us and those are our people, you know, and there's people that don't fucking get us they're never going to get us.

01:21:43.95
Bill
So fuck them. You know, I mean, if they seriously, I mean, if they, if people, you know, listen in and they don't understand it, fine.

01:21:45.77
Mike
Hehehehe.

01:21:50.12
Bill
Fuck you. We're, that's not why we're here. You know, we're, we're not here for you.

01:21:52.67
Mara
Yeah.

01:21:54.49
Bill
And, you know, but and you're not there. You don't necessarily need to be there for everyone. But the people you are there for, um you know, in my opinion, that need to appreciate you, I think, will appreciate you for, again, your background, and your knowledge, even if they don't know where the fuck you came from.

01:22:09.03
Bill
I think that all of that just comes out, you know, with with the way you talk about it. You've opened up my mind all this shit. That's I'm just sitting here listening, going, God damn, it's fucking cool. You know, um I mean, it.

01:22:18.71
Mara
i Good.

01:22:19.56
Mike
Hehehehe.

01:22:20.49
Bill
it It really is. And to Mike's point, yes, even if it's ah a scratch of the surface or a small dent that you're making, you're you're doing it. It doesn't matter what, you know, you don't have to have this this monstrous, huge ripple effect right away.

01:22:33.51
Bill
Even if you make a little ripple, that that's where that's where you start, you know? And the thing of it is, too, is that I that's why I started thinking as you were talking about this, it just this sounds like, again, it's a whole different thing.

01:22:42.85
Mara
Yeah.

01:22:44.12
Bill
But with all of the the mindset of society now, again, with these coaching and everyone needs ah somebody to help them do whatever. I don't see why your your thing couldn't grow or won't grow, I think, with more.

01:22:56.77
Bill
ah i I've never, i don't know, maybe people just don't know about it, you know?

01:23:00.76
Mara
yeah

01:23:00.78
Bill
So not that we can necessarily, you know, yeah again, small audience we just talked about, but, you know, not only did we, but we wanted to have you back on just to shoot the shit with you and that you got a new thing coming on. But um I mean, fuck just in general, i've I've learned a lot from it and anything we can do, anything we can help with.

01:23:18.80
Bill
And I know ah Mike, you feel the same way. I mean, you're one of our friends, but on top of that,

01:23:20.88
Mike
yo

01:23:24.34
Bill
It's fucking cool. You know?

01:23:26.16
Mara
Yeah, I appreciate that. it's No, it's cool.

01:23:28.54
Mike
Doing good work.

01:23:29.12
Mara
I know. I will.

01:23:30.07
Bill
Yeah.

01:23:30.53
Mara
i'll keep I will reach out to you guys if I ever need you, but this is helpful enough just knowing that hopefully the two of you may come into a conversation with someone down the road and you'll be like, you know, because I don't even care about the, I make a decent income with my salary job.

01:23:44.62
Mara
The death doula stuff, that'll come when it's time.

01:23:45.23
Mike
Right.

01:23:46.82
Mara
But even if it's just connecting me with somebody who's going through this, who has fears and questions and just needs those fears dispelled, give them my number because i don't need to, I don't need to, it's not about the money right now.

01:23:59.66
Mara
I make my income. You know, if that was my only income, that'd be different.

01:24:01.46
Mike
Right.

01:24:02.54
Mara
But I really, truly want to help change the narrative and just educate people so they're less afraid.

01:24:03.33
Bill
Right.

01:24:08.87
Bill
Right.

01:24:09.87
Mike
Beautiful.

01:24:10.16
Bill
Yeah. I mean, I mean, shit, it just, uh, yeah, I think it's wonderful. And yeah, by all means, you run across, I mean, if I ran across somebody that, uh, that needed that sort of assistance, I mean, my God, I mean, why, why not?

01:24:21.16
Bill
I mean, it, uh, it's, again, it's amazing. So, um, what is your, I guess, what are your thoughts about, um, I don't know, are you just doing it as it comes along? Are you doing, and I want to say advertising, but what are you, what are your plans on how to, again, you know, get this out more to people?

01:24:36.80
Mike
Where do you see yourself in five years?

01:24:38.33
Bill
Well, and I didn't, I don't mean it, I don't mean it that way, but it sounds like she wants to continue doing this.

01:24:38.42
Mara
Yeah.

01:24:42.98
Mike
I know.

01:24:43.26
Bill
So what, what's the, what's the way to do that?

01:24:43.38
Mike
Yeah.

01:24:43.47
Mara
I do.

01:24:45.64
Bill
I mean, i don't even know how you do that. How do you get your, how do you get your name out there?

01:24:48.24
Mara
I don't either. I mean, obviously the first thing I need to do the first thing I need to do is figure out what I want to charge. I mean, that's important. I need to figure out what my price point is going to be and what it's going to include.

01:24:59.62
Mara
So I need to take the time to do that. And that means actually sitting down and putting pen to paper and and doing those types of things. So that's the first thing I need to do. I already have my, you know, I already have my LLC name is, you know, partners in passing.

01:25:09.19
Bill
Right. Right.

01:25:13.43
Mara
So the first thing I need to do is just, you know, figure out what I'm going to charge people. And then I have to figure out how to, the logistics of separating it from my hospice job, because it is, it would not be ethical for me to walk in and and be with a family and recommend my own hospice.

01:25:30.43
Mara
That would be a conflict of interest.

01:25:30.96
Mike
right right who's the it

01:25:32.39
Mara
So part of my job is to, you know, give people choice, sit with them while they interview multiple hospice companies and figure out how to keep my mouth shut during that process and not go, we could do it better.

01:25:32.55
Bill
right

01:25:43.71
Mara
You know what I mean? So I'm going to have to, so I need to be really careful and and just be, make sure I'm at a point where I wouldn't influence their decision because I would not want to be unethical in anything that I did.

01:25:53.85
Mara
And would want to help people make their own decisions and support them even if they choose what I consider to be not the best hospice or, you know, also learning how to keep my mouth shut if they wanted to pursue treatment.

01:26:00.38
Mike
right

01:26:05.18
Mara
And I knew deep down, it's not going to do anything. You know, I have to be a non-biased support system.

01:26:08.62
Mike
Right.

01:26:10.98
Mara
So I think the first thing I need to do is continue to work on those things within myself, which, you know, I will do as time goes on. um And also just figure out, you know, advertising, creating a webpage. I secured my, um what is it called?

01:26:28.65
Mara
my

01:26:28.85
Bill
Domain.

01:26:29.07
Mike
Domain.

01:26:29.73
Mara
Thank you. I secured my my domain and i have that so that when the time comes, it it won't already be bought.

01:26:30.72
Bill
Yep.

01:26:36.79
Mara
um

01:26:37.01
Bill
Right.

01:26:38.26
Mara
I just need to figure it out. I need to, it costs money to

01:26:41.35
Mike
Yeah.

01:26:41.44
Bill
Right.

01:26:42.37
Mara
so make money. So I need to find a web designer.

01:26:43.53
Mike
Yeah, right.

01:26:44.10
Bill
yeah

01:26:45.65
Mara
You know what I mean? I didn't realize how expensive that was, even just this just a regular web page and then you know have them connect to me. And then I need to figure out how to have boundaries in my nine to five job and not work after hours and on weekends, because I really need to secure the after hours and on weekends for my company.

01:27:04.85
Mara
But now, but I'm still bad at that.

01:27:05.60
Mike
Right.

01:27:07.39
Mara
I actually went into work today which people would be very proud of me. And I went to my ah HR office manager and I said, Hey, I think that I want to not a work phone because I don't want to use my phone anymore for work because I don't know how to turn it off.

01:27:18.83
Mike
Mm-hmm.

01:27:21.30
Mara
And she's like, we've been waiting for you because they know I'm exhausted.

01:27:21.45
Mike
Right.

01:27:25.51
Mara
but when you're dealing with hospice and you see your phone ringing on the weekend,

01:27:25.78
Mike
Yeah.

01:27:29.56
Mara
and you know, it's a family that's full of fear, I can't help but answer. But the thing is, I'm, I'm going to burn out.

01:27:33.34
Mike
Right.

01:27:35.10
Mara
So I need to turn my phone off on the weekends and after hours and direct people to call the on call line, which is what they should be doing anyways, and start using my spare time to build my business.

01:27:35.24
Mike
Yeah.

01:27:42.98
Mike
Mm-hmm.

01:27:43.25
Bill
Right. Right.

01:27:45.91
Mara
So there's a lot that's going into it. But as I know, from being ah ah recovering woman, um everything comes together eventually, if I just learn how to how to sit back and let it happen.

01:27:53.72
Mike
Right.

01:27:55.95
Mara
So

01:27:56.51
Mike
Cool.

01:27:57.16
Bill
right

01:27:58.57
Mara
i I think. We'll see.

01:27:59.93
Mike
Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, you know. you they you know

01:28:03.51
Mara
It happened all the other times, but this time it might not.

01:28:03.89
Mike
could Yeah, right.

01:28:05.63
Mara
So I need to keep...

01:28:06.03
Mike
You're right.

01:28:06.51
Mara
back yeah

01:28:06.57
Mike
Yeah, you're one of us. I know.

01:28:10.63
Mike
yeah you're one of us

01:28:12.20
Mara
I am.

01:28:12.69
Mike
ah

01:28:12.89
Mara
I'm so tired.

01:28:14.82
Mike
ah i know You know what? On that note, why don't we wrap this fucking thing up? Because this was all just great stuff.

01:28:25.53
Mara
Awesome.

01:28:25.72
Mike
and you know and And you know what? We're always going to be here. We'll revisit this again.

01:28:30.27
Mara
Two more years.

01:28:31.46
Mike
Yeah, there you go.

01:28:32.20
Bill
Yeah.

01:28:32.95
Mara
Yes.

01:28:33.34
Mike
Another 94 episodes. Yeah.

01:28:35.89
Mara
I'm ready.

01:28:36.87
Bill
Yeah. I mean, if there's ever anything, if you need us, ah you know, to if cross post something on social media, if you want to pop in here at any point for, you know, 15 minutes and and shoot the shit with us for a minute, it doesn't matter.

01:28:43.03
Mike
right yeah

01:28:46.56
Bill
You know us. If we don't have another guest, um you can keep come command whatever you want.

01:28:47.82
Mara
Thank you.

01:28:50.40
Bill
you Mara, you have walk on status. How's that?

01:28:52.75
Mara
Thank you. I appreciate it.

01:28:53.94
Bill
yeah

01:28:54.27
Mara
knew it. I knew that I was everything I thought I was.

01:28:55.55
Mike
Right. Yeah.

01:28:57.39
Mara
i'm just kidding.

01:28:57.82
Bill
i

01:28:58.06
Mike
Yeah.

01:28:58.35
Bill
I think the...

01:28:58.67
Mike
Cool. Cool.

01:28:59.82
Bill
I think the only other person we told that to was Tom Farley, but why wouldn't we tell Tom Farley that?

01:29:00.27
Mara
Thank you.

01:29:04.40
Mike
right

01:29:05.53
Mara
No, I appreciate it. just need to get it together first so I know what I'm selling. I need to get it, you know, I need to get it going.

01:29:09.88
Bill
Yeah.

01:29:10.79
Mike
yeah

01:29:11.18
Mara
And I know what I need to work on, of course, because I know everything. No, but i know I know what I need to work on.

01:29:14.94
Mike
yeah

01:29:15.08
Bill
Meh.

01:29:16.64
Mara
and And there are certain things I need to work on. But when I get there, you guys will be the first to know. So thank you.

01:29:21.60
Mike
cool

01:29:22.38
Bill
Cool. All right. Well, Mike, run it out.

01:29:24.75
Mike
hey

01:29:25.95
Mara
Run us out.

01:29:26.06
Mike
All right. Well, thank you everyone for listening to yet another episode of sober, not mature. Thank you, Mara, for coming and hanging out with us. You know, we love you.

01:29:35.85
Mara
Love you too.

01:29:35.95
Mike
And, uh, You know, as always, be kind to each other, be good to each other, go out and do something nice for somebody else this week, and don't tell anybody you did it.

01:29:46.79
Mike
Now, from the bottom of my heart to the depths of my soul, from the beginning of time until the ends of the earth, always and eternally, fuck you.

01:30:00.00
Mike
Now it's time, kids. It is that time. It's time for you to fuck off. Then keep fucking off. Keep fucking off till you get to a gate with a sign on it saying, you cannot fuck off past here.

01:30:12.46
Mike
Climb over that gate. Dream the impossible dream and keep fucking off forever.

01:30:20.35
Bill
I don't think Mara heard all that. that We probably added that first part of the, the part from G and in there since she's been on last, but yeah, that's a, that's another fun part that Mike added. So, all right.

01:30:29.81
Mara
I imagine he did.

01:30:31.54
Mike
yeah

01:30:31.67
Bill
Yeah. So I, I don't think we have any other funny antidotes or anything to add to it. Mara do not hang up when we're, after we say goodbye in here, you want to hang on ah before you hang up or exit out of here.

01:30:40.59
Mara
Yes, of course.

01:30:41.16
Bill
But um I'm obviously thank you. This, so like Mike says, it's been wonderful. It's been eyeopening to me. I mean, I, Christ, I, I didn't know half this shit. So um thank you.

01:30:49.25
Mara
Oh, good.

01:30:49.81
Bill
We, Yeah, we we love you. Love you, Mike.

01:30:51.49
Mara
Love you, too. Love you, Mike.

01:30:52.62
Mike
Love you.

01:30:53.79
Bill
right, talk to you guys soon.

01:30:55.57
Mara
Bye.

01:30:55.82
Mike
Bye.