SoberNotMature - Episode 169 (Shirley We Jest)

00:00:01.39
Bill
All right, everyone.

00:00:01.91
Shirley 
Yeah.

00:00:02.81
Bill
Welcome once again to another episode of Sober Not Mature. And Mike, this time we didn't lie. We actually do have a guest on.

00:00:11.40
Mike
Hmm. Hmm. Hmm.

00:00:13.21
Bill
But I'm going to read this into the record because we did it a few weeks ago, but this will set our guest up nicely, I think. And then we'll say hi to you. Mystery guest, right? All right, so this was an email from our guests. Hello, Bill and Mike. Okay, so my name is Shirley.

00:00:26.48
Bill
Let the airplane jokes begin. My name on Instagram is Shalila. Am I pronouncing that correct?

00:00:32.11
Shirley 
You are. good.

00:00:32.92
Bill
Okay, good. A very old nickname, and I think that's where Sheila came in.

00:00:34.21
Shirley 
I'm getting

00:00:36.77
Bill
You can keep calling me Sheila for continuity, or you can call me Shirley, and I can't tell you to stop.

00:00:39.63
Shirley 
real can calling Yeshua.

00:00:41.79
Bill
So, side note, clearly I was the one calling her Sheila, whether it was in emails or messages.

00:00:42.57
Shirley 
can calling Yeshua.

00:00:47.49
Bill
I don't know where it came from, but it is what it is.

00:00:49.15
Shirley 
Yeshua.

00:00:50.01
Bill
It is what it is. So anyhow, you were on board to come in with us. You have the headphones. Actually need a mugshot. Yes, you gave us mugshots. um But you said thank you. You were truly shocked and flattered, which I thought was nice.

00:01:00.42
Bill
But here's the fun part. You signed off as just another sober, not mature fangirl.

00:01:07.02
Mike
yeah

00:01:08.59
Bill
and And we are going to talk about that. But first of all, Shirley, introduce yourself, at least who you are, where you're from. don't know, whatever you want to talk about real quick.

00:01:17.09
Shirley 
Hello, I'm Shirley and I am five years sober, five years and a couple months.

00:01:22.24
Bill
Congratulations.

00:01:23.21
Shirley 
um That's important. I am from Detroit, born and raised.

00:01:29.17
Mike
me

00:01:29.39
Shirley 
I still live in, yeah.

00:01:29.96
Bill
What?

00:01:31.95
Shirley 
What, you didn't know I was from Detroit?

00:01:33.41
Bill
No, not at all.

00:01:33.61
Shirley 
don't know.

00:01:34.25
Bill
I know Mike didn't know either. mike said Mike's a Detroit boy.

00:01:35.68
Mike
I did not

00:01:37.56
Shirley 
ah Yeah, I mean, I literally was born. I lived in Detroit until I was 12. And then, you know, we moved to the suburbs. But I actually, you know, he's laughing.

00:01:47.26
Mike
ah hu

00:01:48.11
Shirley 
um But yeah, you know, so if that gives me some sort of cred, I don't know. But.

00:01:52.63
Mike
It does with me.

00:01:55.63
Mike
i will quote Bob Seger. No, I won't. Go ahead.

00:01:57.90
Shirley 
ah But yeah, I've basically lived in the Tri-County, you know, all around the Tri-County area of the Detroit metropolitan area all my life.

00:02:10.76
Shirley 
Never left. I'm one of the few people of my generation and my family that stayed. Pretty much everybody else left. So um moved out west, somewhere cool, you know, whatever.

00:02:16.62
Mike
Mm-hmm. That's not cool. go ahead.

00:02:24.02
Shirley 
Yeah. um I don't know. I could say a million things. Kind of guide me. where What do you want me to talk about here?

00:02:32.28
Bill
Well, no, that's okay. Just, no, was mainly ah just take quick a quick introduction and stuff like that, which is perfect.

00:02:34.17
Shirley 
Yeah. Yeah.

00:02:36.41
Bill
So we've learned things already.

00:02:37.08
Shirley 
Yeah.

00:02:38.03
Bill
The fact that you're from Detroit. I mean, I didn't know that. I thought in the back of my head now that you mentioned that I was thinking Michigan for some reason, but I had no idea where, and I know I would have mentioned it to you, Mike.

00:02:45.76
Shirley 
Oh, yeah.

00:02:49.19
Bill
I mean had it been Detroit, I mean, my God, that's that's Mike's town, right, Mike?

00:02:49.53
Mike
Right.

00:02:50.05
Shirley 
Yeah.

00:02:52.84
Mike
Absolutely.

00:02:53.09
Shirley 
Mm-hmm.

00:02:53.22
Bill
Yeah.

00:02:54.53
Mike
Seven mile in Hoover. Don't go there now.

00:02:57.49
Shirley 
Oh, so I was um ah between 7 and 8 in Gratiot, so not too far away.

00:03:01.83
Mike
Okay. Jesus Christ. Right by.

00:03:03.52
Shirley 
I know.

00:03:03.55
Mike
ah Okay. Do you know where Dresden is?

00:03:04.75
Shirley 
Yep. Yes, I do.

00:03:06.74
Mike
That was where I. Yeah.

00:03:09.06
Shirley 
you know where State Fair is? good That's the street I lived ah

00:03:10.41
Mike
Yeah, of course. Oh, okay. Yeah. Right between.

00:03:12.71
Shirley 
Yep.

00:03:12.96
Mike
Yeah. Well, definitely right between seven mile and gra and eight mile.

00:03:16.09
Shirley 
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

00:03:16.81
Mike
Yep.

00:03:18.06
Shirley 
Same hood. 48205?

00:03:19.25
Mike
Yes. Wow.

00:03:20.17
Shirley 
Yep.

00:03:20.09
Mike
Cool.

00:03:20.41
Shirley 
Yep. Yep.

00:03:22.06
Mike
Yes.

00:03:22.43
Shirley 
yep yeah yeah

00:03:25.16
Bill
When were you, when were you up in, you were just up in Detroit not too long ago, Mike, for the show, right?

00:03:28.72
Mike
Yeah. Beginning of March.

00:03:31.56
Bill
Yeah, that's what I thought.

00:03:31.49
Mike
I was up in Hamtramck at Smalls.

00:03:33.53
Shirley 
Hamtown.

00:03:34.29
Mike
Yep.

00:03:34.84
Shirley 
Yeah. Well, I don't go there anymore, but I used to hang out there a lot.

00:03:36.41
Mike
Cool.

00:03:36.59
Bill
Yeah.

00:03:39.38
Mike
Right.

00:03:40.31
Shirley 
Yeah.

00:03:41.42
Bill
Yeah, Mike, you saw a show and then where'd you stay at the red roof?

00:03:44.31
Mike
yeah Yeah, something. Oh, no, no, no.

00:03:46.65
Shirley 
Hourly rates.

00:03:48.16
Mike
i yeah I was. Where the hell was I? ah Allen Park Motor Lodge.

00:03:53.98
Shirley 
oh okay.

00:03:54.25
Bill
Oh, ha ha.

00:03:54.68
Mike
Clearly, I was flying solo. Yes.

00:03:58.85
Shirley 
Okie dokie then.

00:03:59.94
Mike
Right.

00:04:00.32
Shirley 
right.

00:04:00.30
Mike
It was there was a bed for one night. It's all I needed.

00:04:04.38
Bill
Did it have, did they still have phones in rooms? I mean, he did it have like a lock on the phone? Did they have an hourly rate? Anything like that?

00:04:09.77
Mike
um It wasn't horrible. I've stayed in worse places.

00:04:14.12
Bill
There was a place that Don and I stayed. um We actually went for, it was Kathy's ex-husband, Mark, his 30th birthday, I think. We stayed at this hotel. because I mean, they had a house full of people. And literally, on the when you're checking in, and this was, um I mean, not too far from where they where Kathy lives now. It was in north of Portage, going into Miller area, which is not great.

00:04:35.49
Shirley 
um

00:04:35.52
Bill
um you know, outside of Gary and stuff like that. But right on the, on the counter, it says, you know, if you're in the room longer than 15 minutes, you're going billed the entire, whatever it was, no refunds or something like that.

00:04:45.21
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:04:47.25
Bill
So in Dawn and I are relatively new. We're like within the first six months of dating. And I saw that and she's kind of walking around the lobby. I'm getting things set. And I'm like, I'm like, Hey, come here. And I said, I said, look at this. And she's like, so, and I'm like, got to hurry up.

00:05:00.57
Bill
And she's, she's like, she's like, Jesus Christ, he just fucking walked out.

00:05:00.79
Shirley 
she

00:05:06.44
Bill
Yeah. But she still buried me, but then divorced me too on top of that. So, but, um, anyhow, so, uh, you know, obviously, um outside of our control, I mean, Mike, Mike's work thing. Uh, what did you say, Mike? They, they said they're going to cut back and now they're working like a, like a hound, right?

00:05:20.25
Mike
Yes, they are.

00:05:23.22
Bill
Yeah. So as obviously, you know, we've only had, I don't think we've ever had to to reschedule somebody where we've had rescheduled episode where we've had a guest coming on, but couple of weeks later, glad that you could be on here. Surely we've got a lot of questions.

00:05:35.20
Bill
We were chit-chatting a little bit while you were restarting Mike and she has, she's listened to every episode from every episode.

00:05:42.12
Mike
Good Lord.

00:05:43.38
Bill
I know. So we i've i've got i've got I've got a few different things. First of all, we want to hear your story. that That's number one. um Obviously, we want to hear why the fuck you listen to us.

00:05:54.76
Bill
And that goes back to all the episodes because that's curious.

00:05:54.85
Mike
Ah. Ah.

00:05:56.52
Shirley 
Okay.

00:05:57.44
Bill
That's curious enough. But the main thing, and Mike and I already talked about this, what you said a long time ago

00:06:00.22
Shirley 
ah

00:06:03.21
Bill
That one of us is less mature we before we're done.

00:06:04.35
Shirley 
Oh.

00:06:05.33
Mike
ah

00:06:06.56
Bill
We're all going to friends by the time we're done. So it's not going to be that big of a deal.

00:06:10.78
Shirley 
Uh-huh.

00:06:10.74
Bill
And believe me, it'd probably be an honor for either one of us. So you're not going to offend anyone here.

00:06:14.15
Shirley 
aha and but

00:06:16.56
Bill
All right. Go ahead

00:06:19.37
Shirley 
No, I was going to say, you might just discover I'm the most immature of them all. Yeah.

00:06:24.31
Bill
That's, you know what, that's fine too. That's fine. We've, we've had, we've had guests that we've had that we thought we had to be good with. then we've had other guests were like, yeah, fuck it.

00:06:32.54
Shirley 
Yeah.

00:06:32.88
Bill
We wouldn't have to be good with this person. So, but anyhow, so we should probably, uh, I'm thinking Mike, right? Jump into the story. I'm sure she knows the deal, but why don't you give her the rundown again?

00:06:40.39
Shirley 
Yeah.

00:06:41.62
Mike
Right. Well, Jesus, if she's listened to every episode, right. We, we, I, I, yeah, anyway. um Right. Yeah. You know the deal then, right? We don't, you know, a little bit of qualifying, whatever, drunk logs, we fucking hate them.

00:06:53.84
Shirley 
Right.

00:06:55.48
Mike
I'm sure you do too.

00:06:56.20
Shirley 
Yeah.

00:06:56.94
Mike
So yeah, you know, we're interested in the solution. So it's all yours, Shirley. Lay it on us.

00:07:02.04
Shirley 
Okay. Hello. okay So, um, I had kind of a a long history on the on the road to ruin.

00:07:12.32
Shirley 
um ah So, okay, you know, I was a Detroiter, born and raised in Detroit, Irish Catholic family.

00:07:19.55
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:07:20.11
Bill
that Sounds like a Cleveland lead.

00:07:20.57
Shirley 
um i know, right? And lots of people with alcohol problems in the family. And to be honest, it was just so...

00:07:32.85
Shirley 
was so normalized. I mean, can remember like, you know, my dad letting, my dad would always get like a case of Stroh's delivered.

00:07:34.79
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:07:41.06
Shirley 
that They would deliver it to the house. Okay. I don't know, but yeah. So, you know, have a sip of beer or have some wine. I can remember being in restaurants and my dad would, you know, say some kind of thing like, well, you know, Jesus and all the disciples all drank wine at dinner.

00:07:58.36
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:07:58.62
Shirley 
So why can't you have some too? So My first actual real drink where I got intoxicated, I was about 10 years old. And we were quote unquote up north.

00:08:11.62
Shirley 
Now you guys probably know what that means, but for anyone listening who doesn't live in Michigan, northern Michigan is a resort area. And those of us who live here, we just say, you know, we're going up north and everybody knows what that means.

00:08:24.52
Mike
okay

00:08:25.85
Shirley 
So my family had a place up there and I spent quite a bit of my childhood up there, especially summers. But we did go up there, you know, in other seasons as well. And us kids were running around and we found a bottle of something that tasted like like candy.

00:08:42.25
Shirley 
It was peppermint schnapps. And I'll always remember that night because I drank it. I don't know how much I had. I was just a kid. And I remember like just feeling great.

00:08:57.19
Shirley 
Like, wow. Who knew, you know, that there was something like this out there that could...

00:09:02.39
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:09:03.91
Shirley 
make you feel like your feet aren't touching the ground and laughing. And I just remember we were running around in the woods and it was was dark and it was crazy. And,

00:09:16.62
Shirley 
you know I don't think I got sick, but um the seed was planted, i feel, because it wasn't, you know, too long after that, when I got into middle school, that um we had moved by then from Detroit to the suburbs, and I didn't know anybody.

00:09:23.10
Bill
Thank you.

00:09:33.09
Shirley 
So that was like, I feel like that was the easiest way to make friends is just find the other kids that are kind of milling around out by the fence or whatever,

00:09:44.21
Shirley 
you know, in the back of the school or whatever. And

00:09:47.21
Mike
Right. The cool part.

00:09:49.97
Shirley 
yeah, so, you know, you're, you're out there smoking, trying to look cool. I think it was, um, Newports, first of all, which are horrible.

00:09:58.12
Mike
Mm hmm.

00:10:00.01
Shirley 
And then it was Marlboros, you know, all that. So, um, So, you know, smoked a lot of weed back then, ah all through middle school and into high school.

00:10:14.53
Shirley 
um But I think when I started my babysitting jobs, I had a friend, I won't reveal her name because, you know, I don't want to get her pissed at me, but the two of us had a little operation going on of of stealing wine from the people we babysat.

00:10:15.40
Bill
But I think I.

00:10:30.84
Shirley 
And we would have like a huge stash of it and then we would just drink it, you know. And let the chips fall where they may, I guess, right? You know, I can remember a couple times the police, ah you know, getting involved because we were up to some crap, you know, throwing things at a school building or whatever, you know.

00:10:43.31
Bill
Thank

00:10:51.16
Shirley 
And, but, you know, this pattern that started when I was young and went all the way through to when I quit, when I was 55 years old, I never really got in trouble, like legally.

00:11:03.93
Shirley 
I never seemed to really, you know, like I might get... pulled over or taken into a principal's office a counselor's office or whatnot. But in the end, it just always seemed like, well, you know, maybe tone it down a little bit, young lady.

00:11:18.49
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:11:19.74
Shirley 
or you know

00:11:23.20
Shirley 
But by the time I got toward the end of high school and into college, I started a new chapter of blacking out.

00:11:23.37
Bill
Oh.

00:11:33.11
Shirley 
And that was scary, but it didn't stop me.

00:11:37.09
Mike
if

00:11:37.73
Shirley 
I've had a lot of famous blackouts. Not that we're doing drunkologues, but my worst one ever.

00:11:42.63
Mike
and sir

00:11:45.13
Shirley 
and it's that picture that I sent you, Bill, where you thought it was like 10 years ago and it's like 1986. I um i was on a i was on a ship in the Mediterranean.

00:11:55.84
Bill
I was on a ship. I had to take them together. Little that I don't think.

00:11:58.76
Shirley 
I was on vacation in Europe. And I had mixed together alcohol. Little little did I know in Spain, when you order a rum and coke, a Cuba Libra, whatever they call it, it's the opposite of a drink here. Like here, it's like a little bit of rum and then a bunch of coke. There, it was like a whole bunch of rum and just enough coke to give a color.

00:12:22.66
Mike
Nice.

00:12:23.41
Bill
That's how I used to mix my drinks.

00:12:24.35
Mike
Yeah, right. Yeah.

00:12:25.82
Shirley 
Well, I didn't know that. So I took like, I don't know, I took some kind of anti seasickness pill and drank a bunch of these things.

00:12:32.44
Mike
Hmm.

00:12:33.53
Shirley 
And like the last thing I remember was running around somewhere by the lifeboats. You know, here we are on this, the Mediterranean, it's at night and it's beautiful, pitch black.

00:12:40.80
Mike
Hmm. Hmm.

00:12:46.25
Shirley 
And, and the next thing I know, i'm like on a table in a dining room. The next day.

00:12:55.10
Mike
i

00:12:57.00
Shirley 
Yeah. And my, my luggage is stolen can't find my friends and nobody's speaking English. And I'm wandering around trying to speak what little Spanish that I learned in high school.

00:13:12.02
Shirley 
And, you know, it was it was, it was, it was a hot mess of a situation. It took me like a day and a half to two days to get better after that. I was really sick and,

00:13:24.94
Shirley 
Um, but I just kept going cause man, we were in Ibiza, which is like this really cool Island and it's nothing but bars.

00:13:33.03
Bill
Thank you.

00:13:34.07
Shirley 
And anyway, so I think what it came down to with me is i was always chasing after that, uh, that ultimate moment, you know, it had to be something cool and crazy,

00:13:46.23
Mike
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

00:13:51.11
Shirley 
Um, and so I just kept that up, you know, through my twenties, through college. Um, I got married, had a child. I, still I didn't drink when I was pregnant.

00:14:02.84
Shirley 
So God forbid, no, I, I would say the pregnancy, i have two children. So, you know, like two pregnancies, uh, I didn't, but as soon as I could, again, I did, you know, I couldn't wait.

00:14:14.61
Bill
Right.

00:14:16.62
Shirley 
i think it was like a week after giving birth. I'm like, open up that bottle of you know, and it never occurred to me, you know, and here I had this, this baby, this small child, and I was putting back like a bottle of more wine at night and going to work.

00:14:21.06
Mike
Ha ha ha ha ha.

00:14:35.67
Shirley 
And I don't know, nobody ever said anything to me. never got in trouble, but I couldn't possibly have been living my best life, you know?

00:14:40.45
Bill
right

00:14:45.39
Shirley 
Um,

00:14:48.47
Shirley 
But, you know, the person I was married to was had an alcohol problem, too. you know So it ultimately add ah led to the demise of our marriage due to the fact that we just couldn't seem to get along anymore.

00:14:54.20
Bill
right

00:15:02.80
Shirley 
You know, we were fighting and things were getting really dramatic and stupid. And we just kind of both, or I decided, and I think he eventually agreed that maybe it might be better for our child if we...

00:15:18.22
Shirley 
went our separate ways. Um, so then I was a single mom and think I did okay during that time period.

00:15:19.89
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:15:27.95
Shirley 
i was kind of scared of what might happen being a single mom. If I got, i don't know, like a trouble drinking or i don't know, you know, there was that threat of like maybe custody or whatnot.

00:15:40.00
Bill
right

00:15:42.15
Shirley 
So I tried to tone it down a bit.

00:15:45.03
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:15:45.23
Shirley 
And then I met somebody who um didn't, didn't really didn't drink at all, didn't do anything. And I thought, all right, this is who I need to be with. This is perfect. This person will make me a better person because I won't want to disappoint them.

00:16:01.48
Shirley 
So that worked for a little while, but then, no, I think what would happen is I started having like a resentment, you know, that you don't want to have fun the way I want to have fun.

00:16:01.34
Mike
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

00:16:08.51
Mike
Of course.

00:16:08.81
Bill
Sure.

00:16:13.86
Shirley 
Like I want to like get crazy and stay out all night and do whatever, you know, and it just put a wedge in our relationship.

00:16:24.62
Shirley 
And, um,

00:16:27.69
Shirley 
And I think too, um with child number two, I decided to leave the workplace. There were a lot of things that were going on. I was like, i was working nights. i used to be in the newspaper business.

00:16:40.09
Shirley 
So I were at the end, I was doing night copy desk work, which didn't get me home till like two in the morning. And then I had to get up and take my daughter to school.

00:16:47.03
Mike
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

00:16:48.57
Shirley 
So I wasn't getting any sleep. It was really kind of messed up.

00:16:51.14
Bill
Thank you.

00:16:52.34
Shirley 
And then now there's a baby in the mix. I'm like, come on, you know. So I tried being, you know, a stay at home mom with um freelance work mixed in the mix.

00:17:03.78
Shirley 
And well, I'll tell you what I learned from that experience is that I am somebody that needs ah to be accountable, you know, and having a job to go to every day is a good piece of accountability that once that was taken away, it was only a matter of time before I met.

00:17:18.90
Mike
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

00:17:23.71
Shirley 
I found all the other moms in the neighborhood.

00:17:24.61
Bill
All the other

00:17:27.63
Shirley 
who, you know, book club, you know, we we came with ah up with all these names of ways to get together and drink, you know, that sounded legitimate, but really we're not, you know, and at first it wasn't so bad, but, you know, it started getting worse over time. i can remember, like, I lived in a town during this time period in my second marriage that was like a big party town.

00:17:51.26
Shirley 
like bar district, everything was either within walking distance or bike riding distance.

00:17:55.12
Bill
Right.

00:17:57.92
Bill
right

00:17:58.46
Shirley 
So I didn't have to worry about drinking and driving.

00:18:01.79
Mike
Right.

00:18:01.97
Shirley 
I was drinking and bike riding. Oh,

00:18:04.94
Mike
yeah I've done that.

00:18:08.38
Shirley 
I know. And I did, I remember one time it was like, I couldn't even do it. I was trying to ride my bike and I couldn't even do it. I had to like walk it, you know, had to walk my bike home.

00:18:15.07
Mike
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

00:18:19.68
Shirley 
But, you know, I'm not like exactly a spring chicken at this point.

00:18:21.92
Bill
Thank you.

00:18:22.69
Shirley 
I'm like maybe early, you know, i'm in my 40s now.

00:18:26.71
Mike
Right?

00:18:27.14
Shirley 
And my husband's, you know, finding me out cold on the bathroom floor.

00:18:31.94
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:18:32.20
Shirley 
Like, what the fuck is going on? You know, I thought you were at book club.

00:18:37.53
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:18:37.82
Shirley 
What book were you reading?

00:18:37.91
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:18:38.36
Bill
Well, yeah, well, I was. So real real quick question with with that whole thing.

00:18:41.87
Shirley 
Yeah. Yeah.

00:18:43.58
Bill
So I had never heard the term, and I know that Mike and i talked about this on an episode because i I heard it on Instagram or another podcast episode, i don't know, a couple of years ago when we first started doing this.

00:18:54.56
Bill
I had never heard of the whole mommy wine culture thing that they talk about.

00:18:57.49
Shirley 
Oh, yeah.

00:18:58.56
Bill
So I didn't know if that was, you know, people on the on on the other side of it, on the sober side of it called the mommy wine culture, or if it is, okay, so it is the, it's a, it's a thing that while you're into it, that's, that's kind of like your club and we're in the Bobby wine culture type of thing.

00:19:05.71
Shirley 
Oh, no.

00:19:07.91
Mike
she

00:19:13.12
Bill
Right. I mean, you guys know what you're doing and that's what, that's what it's called.

00:19:17.22
Shirley 
Well, I mean, I don't know if anyone officially called it that, but that's basically what it is because it was a lot of other women who were deeply entrenched in doing the domestic stuff. And most of us had left the workplace or were just doing side gigs.

00:19:34.10
Shirley 
And um you needed like, if you were going to put a hundred percent in all day doing everything for everyone else, it was really nice. Like I called it crawling to four o'clock.

00:19:46.57
Shirley 
I would, I tell you some days it was like, I could not wait for it to be four o'clock. Cause then I could, you know, do whatever, drink some wine. It wasn't always wine. Vodka was a big part of it too, you know?

00:19:58.20
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:19:59.47
Shirley 
Um, and then, you know, the next thing, you know, everything else gets introduced into the mix.

00:19:59.78
Bill
then, you the next thing, everything else is...

00:20:04.52
Shirley 
All a sudden it's like, I hadn't smoked marijuana, whatever the hell they call it these days since I was, a um, I think when I started at college, I kind of stopped doing that.

00:20:16.14
Mike
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

00:20:16.88
Shirley 
But the stuff that's out there now, oh my God, no.

00:20:19.58
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:20:22.24
Shirley 
just so And then edibles were big too. So I remember being at a party and somebody had a plate of cookies on the table and I thought they were regular cookies. So, you know, I'm eating them.

00:20:32.99
Shirley 
And then someone went, oh my God, what are you doing?

00:20:38.51
Shirley 
That was a bad night.

00:20:40.01
Bill
Yeah, what are you doing?

00:20:40.33
Shirley 
That was a

00:20:40.73
Bill
you're You're getting high is what you're doing.

00:20:44.96
Shirley 
i hit Well, I was already drinking and then I'm eating these cookies thinking they're like regular Toll House cookies.

00:20:46.74
Bill
Right.

00:20:49.91
Shirley 
I'm like, you can't just put that out on the table without some kind of label.

00:20:49.78
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:20:56.74
Shirley 
But then I got into all that, you know, before it was legal. Then it was like this whole thing. I got the hookup with this person and we were buying the cookies and the this and the that. You know, I don't know.

00:21:09.38
Shirley 
Um, well, anyway, moving right along. So, I mean, you know, that really what I'm trying to say is, you know, I started young. I went through all my school years and and a divorce. And then I had my second marriage and then that imploded.

00:21:28.02
Shirley 
And, um, that was kind of the beginning of the end for me, because at that point, um, some things were starting to be said and posted on Facebook about me.

00:21:37.76
Mike
Hmm.

00:21:39.39
Shirley 
you know, saying like, you know, some people, some people are more interested in partying than doing anything responsible. And I would just get really mad. Like, how dare you?

00:21:50.31
Shirley 
You know, there is nothing wrong with what I'm doing. I'm just having fun, you know? Um, but fast forward a few years. Um, so second marriage ends

00:22:01.44
Bill
Thank you.

00:22:03.13
Shirley 
And I've got to go back to work. And so I do that. But at the same time, i like my drinking just really escalated during that time period.

00:22:15.39
Shirley 
um I'm sure some of it had to do with some of the people I was hanging out with at the time. They weren't exactly the best choice for me, you know, um,

00:22:26.80
Shirley 
But I think at that point in my life, I was just like, wow, you like to drink the way I do. So this feels comfortable. I mean, I think you guys know what I'm talking about, right?

00:22:35.07
Mike
Oh, absolutely.

00:22:35.52
Bill
Yeah. ah Yeah.

00:22:36.38
Shirley 
Like, like, let's say you're going somewhere, whatever. It doesn't even matter what it is. Let's say it could be shopping. It could be a movie. It could be going to someone's house. And you're like, you want to have a little something before you, you know, before we get there? And you're like, yes.

00:22:52.38
Shirley 
Oh my God, I love you.

00:22:52.37
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:22:53.23
Bill
Yeah.

00:22:53.69
Shirley 
You know, like. Thank you for asking. You know, so. But things really started going down down the tubes, I would say, because I ended up losing that job.

00:23:09.07
Shirley 
And that was like the worst thing that could possibly have happened to me. I was going into work hungover every day. and probably not functioning.

00:23:19.90
Shirley 
I mean, was a new employee and, uh, I'm sure they were watching me like a hawk and, you know, I i had a whole long career doing something different for many years.

00:23:21.55
Mike
Of

00:23:29.76
Shirley 
So I, I was overly confident probably, you know, but I was doing something I'd never done before and I should have had a little bit more humility.

00:23:31.89
Bill
Thank

00:23:38.71
Shirley 
And I think that ultimately led to my demise. So they let me go before I could collect unemployment.

00:23:47.19
Mike
course.

00:23:48.75
Shirley 
Yeah, well, here I am now. I have a mortgage I can't pay. and you know, so things got really scary. And long story short, I ended up losing my house.

00:24:00.61
Shirley 
And having to put pretty much everything I own except for a few essentials to the curb. And I lived in this house for 16 years. So that was pretty humiliating, you know, to have to do that and have my neighbors and everybody see this.

00:24:11.75
Bill
right

00:24:12.18
Mike
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

00:24:16.66
Shirley 
And I couldn't find anywhere to live. That was the other part of it. Um, Some things had happened in my second marriage that led to some pretty big financial problems.

00:24:32.14
Shirley 
um You know, we had the IRS after us, which was horrible.

00:24:36.74
Bill
Right.

00:24:37.35
Shirley 
And if that ever happens to you, if, you know, one day you go to the bank to get some money out and you find out your account is empty, that's because the IRS, they call it scraping.

00:24:48.68
Shirley 
They scraped your account.

00:24:50.47
Bill
Yeah, they don't they don't play it. I mentioned that on here before. My my dad was a skilled, short of calling him a criminal, he knew what he was doing when it came to you know chasing around money and this and the other thing.

00:24:53.86
Shirley 
Yeah.

00:24:59.68
Mike
Hu hu hu hu

00:25:06.29
Bill
But he told me, I don't think I was more than 15 or 16 years old. He goes, you can fuck anyone in the world, but don't fuck with the IRS. Yeah.

00:25:14.17
Shirley 
Oh no.

00:25:14.89
Bill
And I mean, I had when I went through my first divorce, my my ex-wife after we split, um she filed and claimed our daughter and I filed and claimed our daughter.

00:25:25.05
Bill
So we ended up with this like three to four thousand dollar tax bill. I got that in the divorce, you know, and then there was one other time when I forget when I actually when when I came out to Cleveland, like when I got sober, I claimed ah unemployment like two weeks longer than I should have.

00:25:36.66
Mike
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

00:25:41.09
Mike
that

00:25:41.37
Bill
And they hit me up and I mean, they just took my money out of the refund, but um they they don't play, you know, they they don't play at all.

00:25:41.95
Shirley 
you

00:25:47.93
Bill
It took me probably four years to pay back that that five grand or whatever it was. And they worked with me, but they don't play, you know.

00:25:56.40
Shirley 
So, so yeah, so it was kind of this whole situation where I lost my house. I lost, you know, I was out of work. I was having a heck of a time finding a job. um I was partying like crazy. I was hanging around with kind of a bad person, you know, somebody that was, did not have my best interests, let's say.

00:26:18.00
Shirley 
And then, um, I had to kind of put my tail between my legs. i so I literally remember the night that I was sitting in my garage, cigarette in one hand, drink in the other, going through my phone, texting and calling everyone and going, hey, can I like live in your basement for a couple of weeks?

00:26:36.21
Mike
yeah

00:26:37.84
Shirley 
And, you know, the answer everyone gave me was no

00:26:40.33
Mike
Now...

00:26:42.59
Shirley 
And thankfully, thankfully, one of my relatives who is also in the program said, I'll give you three months. So I moved in there with my young child, my young daughter.

00:26:59.33
Shirley 
One of the most humiliating experiences, you know, to be a grown adult, having your own house and everything. And then all a sudden you're like living in a room, ah room, you know, and I had to put what I had left of my possessions in storage.

00:27:08.13
Mike
Right.

00:27:13.15
Shirley 
And three months later, i didn't have, I hadn't made much progress in finding a place and ended up moving in with ah this person, this um We both just decided we'd had a relationship, but it had broken up realizing, you know, it wasn't the best for both of us, but got back together because we thought, Hey, we can share rent.

00:27:34.91
Mike
right

00:27:37.41
Shirley 
So that's kind of what, what it was for those last four years was, uh, kind of a you know shared living situation that um was a mutually ah mutually assured destruction.

00:27:49.97
Shirley 
Is that the right way you say that? i don't know.

00:27:51.26
Mike
That sounds right.

00:27:52.56
Bill
It works.

00:27:52.77
Shirley 
Yeah, so they that's basically what ended up happening.

00:27:52.81
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:27:53.22
Bill
It works. It works.

00:27:56.37
Shirley 
So I'll try to sum up those four years was a big circle of the drain of of both of us just getting worse and worse and worse into our drinking.

00:28:08.03
Shirley 
um I started making really horrible choices, like going out drinking and leaving my child home alone, you know, things like that. um so When I got to, well, a couple things happened.

00:28:21.55
Bill
when i got to well a couple things happened

00:28:25.00
Shirley 
is that the I would say the last year before I quit, I was starting to feel extremely miserable. um i kind of would just sit down sometimes and say to myself, I'm living in a nightmare.

00:28:38.15
Shirley 
It felt like a nightmare.

00:28:38.31
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:28:40.04
Shirley 
um I wasn't getting along with the person I was sharing a house with. um There was chaos all the time. police started showing up. I ended up having to have my daughter go live with her father full time because it just, you know, it wasn't safe.

00:28:56.61
Shirley 
Um, and I had gone to my doctor because I felt like I needed some kind of help. And I had been going to the same doctor for a long time and he'd been giving me Xanax. So I went to him and I was like, Hey, can I have some more Xanax? And things are getting really rough.

00:29:13.81
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:29:14.18
Shirley 
And he looked at me and he's like, no,

00:29:17.89
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:29:19.02
Shirley 
He goes, but I'll tell you what. And he took out his pad and he wrote on and he goes, I want you to go see this doctor and you go ask that doctor for some Xanax. So right away I called, the I figured out where this doctor's office was and I show up there and I'm sitting in the lobby and I look at the sign on the wall and it says addiction therapist.

00:29:32.92
Mike
Sure.

00:29:40.68
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:29:42.24
Shirley 
You guys, I was so pissed.

00:29:43.79
Mike
Well, yeah.

00:29:44.19
Shirley 
I was like that bitch.

00:29:47.11
Bill
yeah

00:29:47.98
Shirley 
That jerk. I was so mad. I almost walked out, but let me tell you, i went in and i I actually saw this person a few times and what happened is, uh, I had to stop seeing her because of the pandemic, but, um, you know, she actually was very key in me quitting.

00:29:59.63
Bill
Thank

00:30:10.01
Shirley 
And I didn't even say at the time that I was going to quit forever. I just said, I'm going to quit for now. Um,

00:30:14.45
Mike
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

00:30:15.29
Shirley 
Because I told her kind of what was going on in my life, you know, that I was in this really bad situation. I wasn't even parenting my children anymore. i was living in this dangerous, chaotic environment.

00:30:29.37
Shirley 
and I hate myself.

00:30:29.97
Bill
Thank you.

00:30:31.81
Shirley 
i When I walk down the street, I just wish a hole would open up in the earth that would just swallow me because that would just take care of everything, right?

00:30:42.84
Shirley 
So she said a couple things to me, you know, that really opened up my eyes. You know, she said one of the things was something like, you have violated ah a sacred circle of trust with your children.

00:30:58.80
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:30:59.24
Shirley 
And I had never heard that before. But it like stopped me in my tracks. She's like, you allow people in that should never have been in that space.

00:31:09.46
Mike
Right.

00:31:09.66
Shirley 
And you chose other things over your children. And you are like, you know, like a slave to them. And you need to get out of that.

00:31:17.93
Bill
Right.

00:31:18.96
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:31:19.40
Shirley 
So she gave me like a step-by-step plan. um i was scared to death. But, you know, I said, okay, I will try.

00:31:26.72
Bill
right

00:31:28.40
Shirley 
i will try. and I think I went like a week. And I was like, I can do this. I can do this. But then the first time I went out with a work event and someone said, oh, come on, have a drink, have a drink.

00:31:41.72
Shirley 
I gave in.

00:31:43.26
Bill
right

00:31:44.37
Shirley 
And I was really, really angry with myself. So then I decided after that, you know what, I guess I just can't, I can't go out right now. I've got to stop socializing because that's really the only, in the past when I've had to stop things, like let's say when I found out i was pregnant and all that, I would just isolate myself.

00:32:03.06
Shirley 
I would stop socializing because it was too hard to be around other people doing these things when I couldn't.

00:32:05.05
Bill
Thank you.

00:32:11.06
Mike
Right.

00:32:11.57
Shirley 
You know, I had too many internal battles with myself and I was miserable. didn't know how to have fun. Um, so this is where the pandemic comes in because this, this therapist told me, she said, you need a game plan to get out of your situation and reestablish your life with your children.

00:32:29.55
Shirley 
um but one of the things you're going to have to do is be sober. You've got to have a clear head. You can not do this if you're intoxicated.

00:32:38.84
Mike
why

00:32:39.74
Shirley 
um

00:32:42.37
Shirley 
So I did it by stealth um because by this time, a lot of people were home. They weren't going out anymore to work, right?

00:32:53.18
Shirley 
um But I was one of the lucky ones. I got to go to work every day. So I was considered a, no, I was really grateful for that. I was considered and like an essential employee. Actually, it seems silly now, was stupid, but at the time we had to be, we were given a letter to Carrie that had the governor's signature on it.

00:33:07.56
Mike
Yeah, I had one.

00:33:08.25
Bill
Yeah. Right. Right.

00:33:10.73
Mike
No.

00:33:12.00
Shirley 
So I had it, nobody ever asked for it, but you know, it was like, ah yeah but I was so glad that I could get up every day and go sit in an office all by myself because that kept me out of trouble.

00:33:14.44
Mike
No. It's nice to have.

00:33:25.86
Bill
right

00:33:26.80
Shirley 
And then I would come home and I would go walking um and then I would hide. i literally had to hide like in the basement or upstairs and quietly secretly plan my escape.

00:33:41.82
Shirley 
And the place I'm living in now is the place that one of the only places I could find because during the pandemic, you um couldn't look at a place in person.

00:33:45.10
Bill
Right.

00:33:54.11
Shirley 
um I work in the real estate adjacent business and everything was done through videos and you know nobody was doing any, nobody was step setting foot inside of homes or apartments.

00:34:07.53
Shirley 
um And I found a place that I liked, but I'm like, I am not signing a lease on a place that I can't physically stand in.

00:34:14.27
Bill
right

00:34:14.80
Shirley 
Like, how do I know it's not like a black mold or cockroaches or an insane person living underneath me or so you know what i mean? Like, like, so I found this place and they let me come look at it. And it was very reasonably priced because I think You know, they had a lot of vacancies, right?

00:34:33.30
Shirley 
They wanted people in.

00:34:33.63
Mike
Right.

00:34:34.54
Shirley 
So I looked at it as a a sign. So um as soon as I was able to, I moved out. um People ask me how I did it.

00:34:46.41
Bill
Right. Right.

00:34:47.43
Shirley 
And I think not having anywhere to go, not having to be around people helped. And then on the weekends or whenever I could, i went out and I would do these big, huge day hikes.

00:35:02.31
Shirley 
I would just go out in the woods by myself. And it got really, like it got to the point where if I couldn't do it, like if it was raining or the weather's bad, I'd get really bummed out.

00:35:04.27
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:35:04.43
Bill
right

00:35:04.41
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:35:11.69
Shirley 
Like it was, became like this huge therapeutic thing for me.

00:35:15.66
Bill
right

00:35:16.73
Shirley 
And so a common, yeah, Bill, you do this all the time. So, you know, but I mean, and I would always do it by myself.

00:35:20.14
Bill
Right.

00:35:23.19
Shirley 
People, yeah someone would go, oh, I want come with you. And I'm like, no, no, no, no. no no Nope. Cause it was kind of like a silent meditation in a way.

00:35:32.33
Bill
Right.

00:35:32.97
Shirley 
um So because of the pandemic, obviously i didn't know where to find meetings. I was aware of AA. I had been actually, when I was younger, taken to some meetings by people.

00:35:47.30
Shirley 
And it didn't resonate with me at the time. I didn't like the way the old lady, the ladies that are my age now, but back then it would be like, listen here, you little whippersnapper, you need to admit you're an alcoholic.

00:35:50.47
Mike
Right.

00:35:53.69
Mike
Sure.

00:35:57.05
Mike
Right.

00:36:00.68
Shirley 
And I'd be like, fuck you. You know, well, you, you don't know me, you know, that kind of thing.

00:36:02.54
Mike
Yeah, exactly.

00:36:07.41
Shirley 
So, um,

00:36:07.53
Mike
Yeah. I'm special. I'm unique.

00:36:10.40
Shirley 
but i But I couldn't find any meetings. I would like look online and then I would go show up at this church and it would be like no one around anywhere.

00:36:13.29
Mike
Hmm.

00:36:17.36
Shirley 
And I'd be wandering around. If the door was open and I went in, there'd be like someone and they're going, what are you doing?

00:36:23.41
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:36:24.27
Shirley 
I'm like, I'm looking for a day meeting. And they're like, ah have you read the news?

00:36:28.64
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:36:31.16
Shirley 
I'm like, well, it doesn't say that they're canceled. You know, it so anyway, I got really frustrated, with like really frustrated with that.

00:36:34.48
Bill
Thank you.

00:36:38.94
Shirley 
And I was too scared to like ask anybody that I knew that I knew was sober. I was just too embarrassed, you know. how So between the hiking and I did have some books that I read, i was reading Recovery Dharma, which is a Buddhist ah recovery program.

00:37:02.18
Mike
Mm

00:37:02.97
Shirley 
um I actually, i forgot to mention this before when I was talking about times being sober.

00:37:10.43
Shirley 
In the 2000s, like around 2008, 2009, I started going to this Zen temple to learn how to meditate. And it was I found it very helpful. And I was really trying to use it to help with addiction.

00:37:25.24
Shirley 
And it worked for a while. um and I, I really got pretty far into the program, really liked it a lot, but I found in the end that there was no accountability, you know, like I, I realized that there wasn't anybody kind of like keeping track of what I was actually doing. Like I'd go out and just have a bender and nobody would care.

00:37:49.16
Mike
Right.

00:37:49.31
Shirley 
Right.

00:37:49.92
Mike
Right.

00:37:52.28
Shirley 
So I used the tools I learned from that experience during this time of trying to get sober on my own. And I made it, I made it like almost two years, but I will say this, they were not good two years.

00:38:07.51
Mike
no

00:38:09.32
Bill
Yeah.

00:38:09.53
Shirley 
I know they weren't because if I wasn't crying, i was raging.

00:38:10.89
Bill
yeah

00:38:14.63
Mike
Right.

00:38:15.21
Bill
Right.

00:38:16.08
Shirley 
I was getting in fights with people in target. You know what I mean?

00:38:18.96
Mike
Yeah. Mm-hmm.

00:38:19.68
Shirley 
Like,

00:38:22.37
Shirley 
I was a miserable person and I wasn't happy.

00:38:24.13
Mike
o

00:38:25.26
Shirley 
I had no joy in my life. My kids hated me. And so finally I went back to that very same relative who had taken me in a few years before and mentioned to her, hey, you know, like I kind of stopped drinking for a while and I'm thinking maybe you could help me find an AA meeting.

00:38:43.48
Mike
Mm-hmm

00:38:43.86
Shirley 
So she's like, oh my God, I've got just a meeting for you. And you know what? It's my home group.

00:38:50.00
Bill
Nice.

00:38:49.96
Mike
Right

00:38:50.26
Shirley 
It's my home group. Now I went there. They had just started opening up again. This was like the end of 2021. And there would be like three or four of us in there with masks on.

00:39:02.69
Mike
Mm-hmm

00:39:03.90
Shirley 
um But I started going to that. I went to couple other ones. And to this day, ah three years later, that is still my go-to meeting. I've had two my sponsors from that meeting.

00:39:16.17
Shirley 
My closest friends are at that meeting, the people I would, you know, trust with anything from that meeting. um It turned my life around.

00:39:27.25
Shirley 
And so i personally, for me, that 12-step program really worked. It really did. um And I think I was lucky that I had two really good sponsors who didn't take any shit from me.

00:39:40.81
Shirley 
You know, i'm like, don't coddle me.

00:39:42.59
Mike
Right.

00:39:42.74
Bill
right

00:39:43.36
Shirley 
Do not coddle me. If you think I'm full of shit, tell me. And they did.

00:39:47.24
Mike
Right. Mm-hmm.

00:39:48.33
Bill
Right.

00:39:49.80
Shirley 
You know, I made my amends. That was painful. um I had to, you know, to sit down with your ex-husband and his wife. That's not easy.

00:40:01.47
Bill
Yeah.

00:40:01.96
Mike
this

00:40:02.81
Shirley 
You know, but I decided, you know, the only way for me to move forward with my life and have it have any meaning was to own my wrongs.

00:40:11.75
Mike
Right.

00:40:12.04
Bill
right yeah

00:40:12.84
Shirley 
and to not repeat them.

00:40:14.67
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:40:15.63
Shirley 
um I have in my ah my big book, in my 12 and 12, I have little notes and drawings that my kids made when they were, you know, those things they make when they're like in kindergarten or preschool.

00:40:17.70
Bill
Nice.

00:40:30.11
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:40:30.40
Shirley 
It's like, I love you, mommy or daddy or whatever. And it's like a little stick person or something in a heart. So I found some of those and I have taped them in the front of my book.

00:40:39.89
Bill
nice

00:40:41.38
Shirley 
And I do that. So every time that I open those books up or I'm at a meeting, I'm right away of reminded of why i cannot ever drink again or do any, know, to me, sober is sober.

00:40:52.84
Shirley 
I don't do anything. i had nothing, nothing, you know,

00:40:53.90
Mike
Right

00:40:59.05
Shirley 
um which, you know, so now today my recovery program includes, you know, going to, at least you know, I try to go to two meetings a week. Um, I'm the GSR right now, if you know what that means.

00:41:12.04
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:41:12.39
Shirley 
Do you know what that means Yeah. Okay. So, so I'm involved on that, like district level and, um, yeah, lots of service work.

00:41:16.70
Mike
Right? Yeah. Service work.

00:41:21.28
Shirley 
Um, podcasts no really so that that's kind of like if you're asking how that happened it happened because I try and try to find a podcast to listen to you know because what I do is every morning when I'm getting ready for work I listen to a podcast and then if I'm not done with it by the time it's time to drive then I listen to it in my car and it paint just became a habit well there's a lot of them out there but not a lot I like

00:41:35.75
Bill
What I do is every morning when I get to work, not done with it, but not done with it. I drive. Well, there's a lot them out, but not a lot them.

00:41:43.35
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:41:50.24
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:41:53.14
Mike
All

00:41:53.74
Shirley 
And so I was listening to some of them and I, they just didn't, it was just like, okay, some of these people are like, well, you know, maybe you only have two drinks or maybe you only drink.

00:42:04.54
Mike
right. Oh, yeah. Right.

00:42:05.91
Shirley 
You know what I'm talking about? Like sort of like control.

00:42:07.04
Mike
ah yeah

00:42:08.07
Shirley 
I'm like, that okay, this is not for me.

00:42:09.67
Mike
right

00:42:10.70
Shirley 
And then, and there's some I still listen to that I started listening to in the beginning and I still listen to, but I think that's how I found you guys is that it came up and I'm not sure if it came up on Instagram or if it came up on um Spotify, you know, how they give suggestions.

00:42:28.49
Bill
Right.

00:42:29.36
Shirley 
So anyway, I see this, it says sober, not mature. And I'm like, what?

00:42:34.45
Bill
Hey, real, real quick here. Let's, I think this is a good breaking point.

00:42:35.80
Shirley 
yeah

00:42:37.15
Mike
Yeah, right.

00:42:37.45
Bill
First of all, first of all, the the thing that, and I think I got right.

00:42:37.52
Shirley 
Oh, okay.

00:42:40.81
Bill
January is at 9th of 2000.

00:42:42.63
Shirley 
January 9.

00:42:42.93
Bill
Okay.

00:42:43.34
Shirley 
Yeah.

00:42:44.08
Bill
okay So January 9th of 2020 is your sobriety date.

00:42:44.34
Shirley 
Yeah.

00:42:47.12
Bill
I just wanted to get that out because I thought we had talked about it but I couldn't remember if you mentioned it, but I think this is, what do you think, Mike?

00:42:47.34
Shirley 
Yeah. yeah

00:42:51.49
Shirley 
yeah

00:42:52.77
Bill
Good time for a break and then we can get into why she listens to this shit. Yeah.

00:42:57.24
Mike
Right, exactly. Well, ah I don't know about you, but I'm going to continue listening right after these words from our sponsors.

00:43:14.91
Bill
All right, everyone. Welcome back. See, does that seem weird now, Shirley, that you see how we do our breaks?

00:43:20.94
Shirley 
Yeah. I thought I could go make a sandwich or something, damn it.

00:43:24.59
Bill
Yeah.

00:43:26.58
Shirley 
Yeah.

00:43:27.20
Bill
we you know and said we've said this before we tell people to be quiet and you know it' six or seven seconds just so i can get ah and just need some place to split the episode that's the only thing we cut and here is that so um

00:43:37.25
Mike
The

00:43:38.18
Bill
yeah whether it was i don't know so we got started on instagram did we get on instagram mike right when we i think was right when we started

00:43:45.87
Mike
hell you asking me for? I don't know. I don't do any of that shit.

00:43:48.74
Bill
No, no, I'm just trying to remember. I think that, no, I, we started the podcast in February of 22.

00:43:50.21
Mike
right.

00:43:54.86
Bill
two

00:43:55.49
Mike
who

00:43:56.02
Bill
And I think I got on Instagram under, under my own name, whatever that I can't remember what it was.

00:43:57.54
Shirley 
Oh, okay.

00:44:01.49
Bill
Oh, is it that simple as what I set up just to get on there personally?

00:44:04.74
Mike
right

00:44:05.11
Bill
And then we decided on the podcast. I got that set. And I think it was, yeah, we got to did the podcast, Instagram, Facebook thing, whatever, shortly after that.

00:44:13.65
Mike
Mm hmm.

00:44:14.43
Bill
So, um, I mean, it could have been, it could have been either one.

00:44:15.03
Mike
right hmm.

00:44:17.58
Bill
I mean, we got on, we started recording through what was anchor and is now Spotify for creators or whatever the fuck they call it now. Uh, but it's through Spotify. So it could have easily popped up on Spotify or, or Instagram, but, um,

00:44:31.33
Bill
Uh, you know, it's funny because I mean, for the longest time you could search and the fact that sober is literally in our name.

00:44:38.40
Shirley 
Yeah.

00:44:38.95
Bill
And when you search for sober podcast, it wasn't coming up because I mean, we were, we were new, we're still small, you know, but, um, you know, we come up in some searches here and there. So, so anyhow, um, so you're searching for sober podcast and you run across this thing.

00:44:52.54
Shirley 
I wasn't even searching.

00:44:54.20
Bill
Oh, you weren't, it came up as a, okay.

00:44:55.00
Shirley 
No, it just came up. It like, it just popped up something.

00:44:57.43
Mike
It invaded.

00:44:59.28
Bill
Yeah, really, it just fucking poked you.

00:45:00.53
Shirley 
You know how, well, okay, so you know how, like, let's say you're on Instagram and you see something that you don't subscribe to, but it looks weird, so you click on it and it's something kind of vile.

00:45:12.06
Bill
Right.

00:45:12.82
Shirley 
And then all sudden after that, you're getting, like, a whole, uh, it's like being just forced on you. And it's like, Oh my God, no, no, no, no. no no no no um I don't want this. No, stop sending me this stuff.

00:45:26.65
Shirley 
Oh my God, dear Lord. You know, I don't, I'm not going to say anything more, but it was kind of like that though, in the sense that I had been following some and just trying things out. And then I saw your logo and I was like, Oh my God, I got to check that out. That sounds totally up my alley.

00:45:43.93
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:45:45.19
Shirley 
In fact, when i told i told my oldest daughter that I was going to be on this podcast, and she goes, what's the name of it? And I said, it's called Sober Not Mature. And she goes, well, that tracks.

00:45:56.36
Mike
a

00:45:58.93
Bill
How old is your daughter?

00:46:00.51
Shirley 
She's 31. Yeah,

00:46:01.84
Bill
and That's nice. That sounds like my kids. They're like, yeah, we can see that.

00:46:05.76
Shirley 
yeah I was like, that just made me laugh so hard. I'm like, uh-huh. Yeah. So, um so anyway, i decided to listen to an episode. I'm sorry to say I don't remember the episode.

00:46:16.32
Mike
Hmm.

00:46:17.60
Bill
don't have to be sorry. we're We're probably sorry that you listened to the beginning and be begin with.

00:46:18.94
Mike
Hmm.

00:46:21.60
Mike
Right.

00:46:22.42
Shirley 
Well, no, but seriously, no, all joking aside, um the whatever episode it was, it captured my attention. I think I liked, I liked your banter.

00:46:34.43
Shirley 
I liked that you guys had did a reading and you know, you joke around, but you also get down to the nitty gritty of what needs to be said. And I appreciate it.

00:46:43.83
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:46:44.81
Bill
Right. Right.

00:46:45.17
Shirley 
And I really started listening and then I backtracked whatever episode I started with. Then I backtracked to your beginning. So I heard both of your stories and then you had like your friends on and other people like that.

00:46:56.52
Shirley 
And, um,

00:46:56.99
Bill
right

00:46:59.97
Shirley 
And guests and so forth. But I think that just the essence of what you guys get get at all the time, I really like. Because, you know, between the make your corner of the world a better place, to make your bed every day to fuck off, all of it.

00:47:12.24
Mike
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

00:47:16.48
Shirley 
But, you know, I mean, think about it. It's like like for me, what what what keeps me sober every day is having a routine.

00:47:24.73
Bill
Right.

00:47:24.79
Shirley 
Having respect for. for my personal space and for other people's space.

00:47:29.55
Mike
h

00:47:30.19
Shirley 
And, you know, cause I get up in the morning and I have certain things I read every day and I listened to a podcast and I go to work and I, if I need to, I do like a 10 step kind of, you know, inventory and you know, what I need to do to fix what I messed up.

00:47:42.60
Mike
Mm hmm.

00:47:47.32
Mike
Right.

00:47:47.74
Shirley 
And then most nights I come home and i do a little bit of journaling, you know, kind of like going over,

00:47:52.54
Mike
Hmm.

00:47:55.46
Shirley 
you know, what, what's bothering me, what's bothering me with this day?

00:47:57.08
Mike
Right.

00:47:57.27
Bill
Right.

00:47:58.39
Shirley 
What did I do that I could have done better? And am I behaving like a person who's in recovery or am I behaving like a dry drug? You know? So it's like being self-aware and I appreciate, I guess I appreciate that your, that your podcast is a mix.

00:48:06.71
Mike
Mm hmm.

00:48:09.43
Mike
Yeah.

00:48:14.70
Shirley 
It's not all serious.

00:48:16.18
Mike
Right.

00:48:16.61
Shirley 
It's not, you know, and it's not all like wacky, crazy, nutty all the time.

00:48:20.34
Mike
Well, I mean,

00:48:21.96
Shirley 
You get,

00:48:22.31
Mike
right

00:48:24.26
Shirley 
it's not like the jim carrey showers you know it's like

00:48:24.19
Mike
but i mean Right, exactly. Well, I mean, you know, ah balance. That's what this is all about is finding our balance.

00:48:31.01
Shirley 
yeah

00:48:31.75
Mike
That's what we have to do and, you know, still working on it. um But yeah, you know, we have to, we yes, life is not all dire and it's not all serious and it's not all stupid and wacky either. It's, you know, some of it's serious, not generally the parts I don't like all that much, but I understand that I have to do those things.

00:48:53.09
Bill
Yeah, and the only thing that we really, I mean, if you look at it, the structured part of the podcast now, the reading was done because, however, i still don't remember how it came up, Mike, but I mean, when you mentioned you're like, that that'd be great to do because, and it was a piece that he missed from when he was doing group, and I'm like, well, fuck, I love the readings.

00:49:02.70
Mike
Right.

00:49:07.22
Mike
Mm hmm.

00:49:08.36
Shirley 
Yeah.

00:49:10.47
Bill
I think it'd be a great thing, and at the time, we were looking probably for a time filler.

00:49:10.66
Shirley 
Yeah. Yeah.

00:49:14.41
Bill
I don't know that we were going to run out of stories necessarily, but um it's nice to have something structured to talk about.

00:49:14.90
Mike
Yeah. Mm hmm. Mm hmm.

00:49:21.34
Bill
Plus, then people started and people still do, you know, like you just did the comment on the fact that we do the reading. um And then the, you know, the, we figured out really, really quickly that we needed to cut the cut people the fuck off when it came to their stories, because um we did not, it's a thing that we hate the most is not hate dislike.

00:49:36.53
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:49:37.35
Shirley 
yeah yeah yeah

00:49:40.66
Bill
The most is he's these long drawn out, you know, fucking just, we get it.

00:49:41.48
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:49:45.95
Bill
You did all these bad things. We've all done it to some degree.

00:49:47.34
Mike
Yeah.

00:49:49.29
Bill
what What do you do now? You know,

00:49:51.42
Shirley 
hu

00:49:51.30
Mike
Right.

00:49:51.95
Bill
And give us the highlights, you know, as Mike always says, he used the word qualify because that's what we were taught, you know, um show people that you belong here, but we don't need to hear what I was this.

00:49:52.57
Shirley 
yeah

00:49:55.73
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:50:01.56
Bill
i did that. and then when I did this and you're like, oh, my God, stop. Just fucking stop. And then the the ending.

00:50:06.13
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:50:07.41
Bill
Those are our three structures, so you know, and hey and. The fact that we take a break in the middle, other than that, it's just, it's, it's fun. I mean, half the time we have, I don't know, there's times when I think we have nothing to talk about and we go the entire episode, um you know, talking about, you know, one, one thing that was unplanned, you know, or other times I go through it, I pick these little things off my list and I get to the end and, you know, I've got fucking 12 things that we touched on and we talked to him about like for four minutes each.

00:50:18.40
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:50:33.77
Bill
I'm like, Jesus Christ. You know, it's just, I don't know.

00:50:35.98
Shirley 
Yeah.

00:50:36.54
Bill
You never know. But the the kindest thing that I think anyone ever said, and this was early on, we got a ah message from somebody, I think in the first six months, Mike, do you remember when somebody said it was like listening in um on somebody having a personal conversation, like a fly on the wall type of thing?

00:50:50.05
Mike
Right.

00:50:50.82
Shirley 
Yeah.

00:50:51.81
Bill
And, you know, being able to listen in to just somebody having a conversation about life and sobriety, whatever. I thought that was the nicest thing that anyone ever could have said, because, you know, we didn't know what we were doing at the time or what we wanted to do, but

00:51:04.64
Mike
Do we know now?

00:51:04.79
Bill
What somebody, yeah, well, but when somebody said that we're like, yeah, we'd like it to be something like that. That's kind of cool.

00:51:10.78
Mike
Yeah, let's let's do that.

00:51:11.08
Bill
But I mean, you can't, but, but you can't plan that.

00:51:12.26
Mike
Yeah.

00:51:14.49
Bill
and That was the beautiful part of it. So, um,

00:51:16.74
Shirley 
Right. It's very organic.

00:51:19.27
Bill
Well, and and that's the thing, too, is that i don't know. There's certain things that I'm a very planned type of person in my normal life. We do certain things. Our our sober lives are planned. um But this is just that this is a release for us.

00:51:29.64
Mike
Hmm.

00:51:31.97
Bill
You know, it's an opportunity to begin with. Well, I might say shoot our wad into the wind to see what happens.

00:51:37.64
Mike
Yes.

00:51:39.27
Bill
um

00:51:39.67
Shirley 
Yeah.

00:51:39.95
Bill
And it really was that way, just us getting together and you know being able to, because we weren't we we didn't really grow apart, but we lived apart for a number of years.

00:51:41.56
Shirley 
Yeah.

00:51:47.58
Bill
We didn't see each other that much.

00:51:47.86
Mike
Right.

00:51:49.52
Bill
It was just a great opportunity to shoot the shit. And then they're like, oh, we can tell fucking stories again, because even though we've heard them all, um you know these other people haven't.

00:51:55.85
Mike
Mm hmm.

00:51:57.38
Bill
But, um yeah, it's just it it's it's nice to hear that when it when it resonates with somebody. That's the cool part. As egotistical as I is, I think I can be. I just I like the fact that it maybe it helps somebody. And that's a that's that warm and fuzzy feeling, you know.

00:52:11.46
Shirley 
Well, you know, and the thing is, too, is that the story of how you two came together and what is it, 14 years, 15 years later?

00:52:18.27
Bill
yeah

00:52:19.18
Mike
15.

00:52:22.41
Bill
Fifteen. Yeah, yeah.

00:52:22.64
Mike
Yeah. yeah

00:52:24.54
Shirley 
you You know, it's like you two would never have met in any other situation.

00:52:28.83
Bill
yeah

00:52:29.30
Mike
Oh, hell no. see

00:52:31.59
Shirley 
Right?

00:52:32.48
Bill
ah he He always says he would have beat he would have beat me up and robbed me.

00:52:35.48
Mike
Well, yeah, I would have taken a shit and yeah, booked.

00:52:35.80
Shirley 
yeah

00:52:35.77
Bill
if

00:52:38.57
Mike
Yeah.

00:52:38.84
Bill
But yeah, the joke would have been on you because I didn't have any money.

00:52:40.05
Shirley 
but but

00:52:41.99
Mike
Right.

00:52:42.16
Bill
know.

00:52:42.23
Mike
You didn't have anything, but whatever you had, I still would have taken it.

00:52:42.37
Bill
Right.

00:52:45.56
Bill
you know

00:52:45.79
Shirley 
so So I like that. I thought that was very touching that... that you two took your experience and just kept it going. I mean, you don't hear about that a lot.

00:52:55.26
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:52:57.26
Shirley 
um

00:52:57.61
Bill
right

00:52:58.99
Shirley 
So I like that part of it and how you guys still get, I think, get together, you know, whether for, whether it's with family or and all that.

00:53:03.60
Mike
Right? Mm-hmm.

00:53:07.15
Shirley 
And to me, that's kind of like a, ah like a testament you know, the program working. um

00:53:13.56
Bill
Right.

00:53:14.49
Shirley 
So my whole recovery program is very woman centric. Like I go only go to women's meetings.

00:53:20.41
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:53:21.93
Shirley 
And I only socialize with women. So you guys are the only, like, dash of testosterone on this sober salad that I...

00:53:28.70
Bill
Hi there.

00:53:28.72
Mike
Well. Sure.

00:53:30.60
Bill
hi there

00:53:32.31
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:53:33.59
Shirley 
No, i i so I started out going to mixed meetings, and I just... You know, for a variety of reasons, you know, like you the longer you're in the program and you're doing self-examination, you realize, you know, like for me, ah pretty much with one exception, every relationship I was ever in or anyone that ah even my the best girlfriend growing up, everybody was an addict.

00:53:41.23
Mike
sure

00:53:58.05
Mike
Right.

00:53:58.14
Bill
Right.

00:53:59.20
Shirley 
And i I remember being at a mixed meeting and oh there's this guy there and right away I'm thinking like, hmm.

00:54:05.01
Mike
Mm hmm.

00:54:05.28
Shirley 
Then I'm like, oh my God, look at you. Look at you.

00:54:08.35
Mike
Ah.

00:54:09.70
Shirley 
Can you just walk away from the butterfly with the broken wing?

00:54:13.51
Mike
ah

00:54:13.80
Shirley 
Just so that's, that's kind of why I, you know, just started going to women's meetings. so I'm like, I need to focus on my program.

00:54:20.68
Mike
Right. I mean, we certainly we were, you know, when we started off, we were encouraged.

00:54:21.88
Shirley 
You know,

00:54:25.52
Mike
It was like, you know, yeah, go to men's meetings.

00:54:27.85
Bill
Right.

00:54:27.86
Mike
You know, you you don't need any of that nonsense. You don't need to lose your focus. And clearly we will. all So, right. Yeah, absolutely. You know, it's encouraged to do that. I mean, you know, my home group is an open meeting now and I i like that. um But yeah, you know, I mean, my my recovery plan,

00:54:45.43
Shirley 
by recovering

00:54:46.80
Mike
you know, foundation. I can't say that because there are a lot of women, but you know, um, yeah, I mean the, the hardcore ones, the real hardcore ones, if I've, you know, I'm in some kind of deep shit, whatever, mentally, emotionally, spiritually, blah, blah, blah. Um, yeah, I'm going to a guy. Absolutely.

00:55:04.62
Bill
Right. Well, that's where our our home group, but we haven't been um the last couple of times I've been back. Well, when did we go to who do you know, that was...

00:55:11.53
Mike
Last God, that was probably like a year ago, right?

00:55:15.60
Bill
Um, shit, was I, when was I there? and ah Did we go there in October? I don't remember. Maybe it was a year ago.

00:55:19.29
Mike
And we made it. but All

00:55:20.89
Bill
Cause I just remember sitting there shooting the shit with Joe and it was after I started traveling. Um, so it would have been within the last 12 months, but, um, that's a, just a good solid men's meeting.

00:55:24.91
Mike
right.

00:55:29.35
Bill
And it's, it's, you want to talk about, you know, that like the sit down and shut up, cut debit guys, not mean, um, but we talk about them all the time, these old school guys.

00:55:34.98
Mike
Mm-mm.

00:55:36.88
Bill
And to this day, you walked in there, you walk in there and these guys are still there.

00:55:37.30
Shirley 
Uh-huh.

00:55:40.50
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:55:40.61
Bill
Um, and it's the same structure. It's just straight to the point. They don't fuck around with anything. You go there and you get your meeting and you get out and it's great. Now, like Mike's home group, in my opinion with Puritas is I, it, I know it's a mixed meeting.

00:55:54.06
Bill
I've been there plenty of times. It doesn't feel, it's not like a, it's not like a Gordon square. it's certainly not like a, whatever the Clifton was years ago.

00:55:59.28
Mike
Right. West Clifton, right?

00:56:02.85
Bill
And there you go, which is just a fucking, you know,

00:56:04.68
Mike
That party.

00:56:06.31
Bill
Yeah, that was just crazy.

00:56:06.62
Shirley 
Yeah, that was just

00:56:07.50
Bill
But, um I mean, Puritus, which is Mike's home group, is, I mean, very, very nice, very structured.

00:56:08.02
Shirley 
But to be honest, this is my question, I mean, very, very, very, very social. But you don't solid, know, and you're not going to set that you it it's good thing.

00:56:13.08
Bill
Gordon Square is fine, but it's still, it's a little bit meh. You know, but if you want a good, solid meeting, yeah, I mean, you know, men's meetings and women's meetings, and they always said that. You know, stick with the women, stick with the men, you know, get, get your recovery from that.

00:56:25.46
Bill
There's nothing, our group, like you just said, Mike, we have a lot of, I have, I mean, we have a ton of female friends and a lot of them are sober.

00:56:26.78
Shirley 
If you're problem something, would say, we have lot I mean, we have lot of people, and lot them are sober, and a lot

00:56:31.45
Mike
Mm-hmm. Right.

00:56:33.45
Bill
um And a lot of them, you know, they're not, we're not romantically involved within these people. They're just good, solid, sober people, um you know, men and women that we have in the Cleveland area.

00:56:37.54
Mike
No. Right.

00:56:42.64
Bill
um And I guess I don't think about it one way or the other, like, oh I'm hanging around a lot of chicks today or whatever the case is.

00:56:46.23
Mike
Mm-mm.

00:56:47.10
Shirley 
right.

00:56:47.48
Bill
You know, because they're just they've been around for a goddamn long and they're just part of our part of our deal. But pat early on, it just, yeah, I didn't I didn't need to be it. I didn't need to be at these mixed meetings all the time. That's for damn sure.

00:57:00.99
Shirley 
Yeah, and and and maybe if I had found one that that was really solid, maybe I would have gone back. But I think I kind of picked all the wrong ones. Like I remember going to this one meeting, and it was at night, and it was in like a downtown area.

00:57:10.49
Mike
Right.

00:57:16.36
Shirley 
And so I went with another woman. You know we'd go together. But sometimes we were the only two women there. And it just seemed like these guys, like the meeting was supposed to be an hour, but I think they had a contest, like how fast they could get the meeting over with.

00:57:21.66
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:57:29.62
Mike
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

00:57:31.50
Shirley 
So, like, I can remember one time talking and the guy, like, like started whacking the table with the palm of his hand. Like, okay. Thanks a lot.

00:57:40.39
Mike
Hmm.

00:57:42.19
Shirley 
I was like, what a dick, you know. like

00:57:44.79
Bill
Right?

00:57:44.77
Mike
Yeah.

00:57:46.31
Shirley 
Like, if you have rules about shares, say them the beginning of the meeting. I mean, because otherwise...

00:57:52.13
Mike
Right.

00:57:53.94
Shirley 
You know, but, you know, you just have to find what works. And I've, I've, I, I, I'm very involved in the meetings I go to.

00:57:57.58
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:58:00.76
Shirley 
And a lot of times we do have, ah you know, the group conscience where we talk about how things are running and complaints people have and this and that.

00:58:08.62
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:58:09.18
Shirley 
And it's like, Hey, you know what? We're here for one thing and one thing only. And when we start getting involved in all this bureaucracy and politics and minutia, we're just like everybody else out there.

00:58:20.79
Shirley 
Like we need to get back and keep it simple, you know?

00:58:22.80
Mike
Yeah, singleness of purpose.

00:58:23.16
Bill
right

00:58:24.83
Shirley 
Right.

00:58:24.83
Bill
right

00:58:26.02
Shirley 
You know, so I think it's just an easy thing for anybody to slip into over time, you know, personalities start taking over. And so, but yeah, I mean, so podcasts and meetings and readings and my hiking, I still do my um solo walks.

00:58:33.48
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:58:42.82
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:58:50.84
Shirley 
And then at least once year I do a solo camping.

00:58:53.79
Bill
ah really

00:58:53.99
Mike
Cool.

00:58:55.22
Shirley 
I started doing that first year you know, what year was that? Well, I forget. Let's say it was within the first couple of years I started doing it. So now every year it's a challenge to go spend a weekend alone camping.

00:59:09.94
Mike
nice

00:59:10.89
Bill
so is it just like out in the middle of nowhere do you go to a campground or

00:59:13.10
Shirley 
No, no. I used to do that. Mike, cause like I said, my family had, you know, a place up in Northern Michigan.

00:59:19.54
Bill
right

00:59:20.36
Shirley 
um And I've backpacked in the Rockies, things like that, you know. But no, no, no, this isn't about me going on an outward bound. this is yeah I usually just go to state parks.

00:59:32.70
Bill
right

00:59:33.74
Shirley 
But it's more about me just being alone for a weekend. And and i and it's very primitive camping. You know, I got to, like, make fires, cook my food. I sleep in a tent. I keep it simple. And then I spend all my time walking or just like really connecting it.

00:59:52.23
Shirley 
It's, it's kind of like an annual reset.

00:59:52.27
Mike
yeah

00:59:54.11
Shirley 
I do it like around my birthday. So it's in the fall and it's just been great. Like I can't wait this year, you know, cause every year I get like more stuff, you know, like I've got it all, you know what I mean?

01:00:07.30
Mike
Accouture mom. Yes.

01:00:09.18
Shirley 
more

01:00:09.60
Mike
Right.

01:00:10.40
Shirley 
cool interesting little tools and stuff so yeah because i'm like you know what i'm not getting any younger how much longer am i going to be able to do this i mean hopefully another 10 years but there's going to come a point where i probably won't be able to do it so

01:00:13.09
Mike
Yeah.

01:00:13.75
Bill
right

01:00:18.78
Mike
Mm-hmm.

01:00:23.14
Mike
Right. It's probably not going to be a good idea. Right. Yeah.

01:00:28.46
Shirley 
i'm in my tent and i can't get up yeah

01:00:30.87
Mike
right

01:00:32.04
Bill
well and you know honestly when some of these areas that i've been in so and the that area that i was in the appalach trail runs all the way through there

01:00:41.00
Shirley 
Yeah.

01:00:40.99
Bill
um where i'm goingnna go in arkansas there's and i can't remember maybe this is that still i don't know whatever there's ah again this long distance you know forever trail that runs through where i'm going to be for the next couple of weeks and um i was looking at trails when i went down there the first time in like oh from this to this it's eleven miles and if you're in the full of thirty one i'm like the fuck his thirty one miles

01:01:02.89
Mike
Mm.

01:01:03.04
Bill
that i look into it and i'm like oh okay i got it it's like

01:01:04.37
Shirley 
Yeah.

01:01:05.56
Bill
there's there's trails that go in a loop and you can go see some shit hey that's pretty woo ah that sort of thing and then there's these these other trails are almost like these are like the the expressway trails you know

01:01:15.91
Shirley 
ah

01:01:15.89
Bill
they're the ones that you know they's still you see some cool shit but you're they go for fucking miles and states and all this different shit

01:01:22.02
Shirley 
Yeah.

01:01:23.07
Bill
and i thought about it and i'm like god that be if i ever had well if i ever wanted to take the time you know would i be able to do that you know take a couple of weeks and just go from here to here type of thing but then i thought about like that's a lot of walk i'm like i think i could work that i could space it out i don't have to walk ah certain distance but then i'm like i gotta carry a lot of shit and i' like oo ah you know i think about that that i'm like

01:01:44.65
Shirley 
Yeah.

01:01:46.31
Bill
like god i gotta to sleep in the ten can' take a godamve air mattress um like i heard kidna

01:01:50.62
Shirley 
I think

01:01:50.70
Bill
getting off of a comfortable bed sometimes like ah jesus christ i think it'd be fun though

01:01:54.45
Shirley 
it'd be fun. But I mean, really have to psych

01:01:55.70
Bill
um but i mean there' i would really have to psych myself up to do it and have ah

01:01:57.27
Shirley 
Be able to have it

01:01:59.66
Bill
be able to have it out where i'm like okay if halfway through i'm like i need to get the fuck out of here i'd be able to do it you know

01:02:05.04
Shirley 
Yeah, I did the, um out it was like out out just outside of Yellowstone. I did a ah backpacking up into the mountains in, you know, like grizzly bear country.

01:02:10.79
Bill
okay

01:02:16.64
Bill
right

01:02:16.67
Mike
Mm-hmm.

01:02:17.25
Shirley 
That was something else.

01:02:18.69
Mike
Mm-hmm.

01:02:19.30
Shirley 
It was on my bucket list.

01:02:19.19
Mike
Mm-hmm.

01:02:20.37
Shirley 
I wanted to do it. I was considerably younger when I did it and it was a lot of work. You got to filter your water. um You got to hang all your stuff in a tree and You can't bring anything into your tent.

01:02:31.76
Shirley 
You got to, you know, change all your clothes so they don't smell like anything. And it's just a lot, you know, it's like not very relaxing.

01:02:36.16
Bill
right

01:02:39.16
Shirley 
And then of course the whole entire time I'm thinking like, is that sound of grizzly bear outside of my tent? Well, I woke up one morning and I felt the ground vibrating.

01:02:47.91
Bill
oh shit

01:02:48.95
Shirley 
i know. And I heard like this huffing sound and I really thought it was a bear. Well, somebody tethered their horse to a tree near my tent.

01:02:56.42
Mike
Mm-hmm.

01:02:58.22
Shirley 
Cause it was a trail, right? You know, and,

01:02:59.74
Bill
right

01:03:00.38
Shirley 
And I was just like, oh, thank God it's a horse. And I'm like, wait a minute, who has a horse? Like, like, where's the person that this horse belongs to?

01:03:07.46
Bill
right

01:03:09.02
Shirley 
You know, but anyway, it was very cool. I'm glad I did it. I did a lot of that kind of stuff when I was younger, because my dad was very much into the, he was an outdoorsman. So we were always camping or, know, we traveled all over the place by car and explored, you know, we were not,

01:03:28.25
Shirley 
My dad was not a theme park person. We never went, we'd we'd go to national parks or off the beaten path, kind of odd little places, but never like Wally World or anything, you know? Hmm.

01:03:40.27
Shirley 
Hmm.

01:03:41.43
Bill
right we did we did a lot of camping when when we were when we were younger my my dad took a bus bought ah bought an old baby blue bus and tore it out we it made a camper out of it

01:03:53.39
Shirley 
oh

01:03:53.61
Bill
ah we did a lot of that and even camped when after my parents my parents split when we moved to wisconsin we were still camping with with our mom and my sister and we just got out of it over time but i mean we did a lot of camping did you ever do any of that stuff bi or no

01:04:08.04
Mike
I mean, a little bit here and there. i was in scouts but for a minute or two, but yeah.

01:04:12.00
Bill
oh sure okay

01:04:13.39
Mike
But now, I mean, well, and you know, when I was living in Michigan, um we moved out after we left Detroit when I was like mean eight or nine or 10 or something like that.

01:04:24.53
Mike
um Yeah, we moved out to Highland, which was not built up at the time.

01:04:28.01
Shirley 
ah

01:04:28.43
Mike
So yeah, you know, um it was all woods and shit. So I mean, that's where I spent my time was, you know, running around out in there swimming in White Lake.

01:04:32.85
Bill
right

01:04:37.75
Shirley 
Oh yeah. um Okay. Yep.

01:04:39.40
Mike
Yeah. Yeah.

01:04:40.31
Shirley 
Yeah.

01:04:41.34
Mike
he So yes, but no, not anymore.

01:04:42.95
Shirley 
ah

01:04:44.57
Mike
You know, I mean, hell the opposite of what you guys are talking about is happening in Pennsylvania this weekend.

01:04:45.02
Shirley 
Yeah.

01:04:49.38
Mike
Cook's forest is this weekend.

01:04:50.95
Bill
yeah ye

01:04:51.42
Shirley 
The what?

01:04:51.49
Mike
Yeah. Cook's forest. It's a huge AA camping jamboree thing.

01:04:57.18
Shirley 
Really?

01:04:57.61
Mike
Yeah.

01:04:58.03
Shirley 
i don't even know about it.

01:04:57.93
Mike
Yeah.

01:04:58.02
Bill
yeah

01:04:59.03
Mike
Yeah. It's ah twice a year. It's in the spring and in the fall and it's,

01:05:03.35
Shirley 
In Pennsylvania?

01:05:04.31
Mike
Yeah, Cook's Forest is the the state park, I guess it is.

01:05:09.40
Shirley 
Oh, okay.

01:05:09.41
Mike
um Yeah, and um yeah, it's it's like literally probably 5,000

01:05:15.57
Shirley 
Ooh. Well, I don't know.

01:05:17.74
Mike
drunks and junkies out in the woods.

01:05:17.99
Shirley 
but

01:05:20.63
Mike
okay

01:05:21.58
Shirley 
Well, that's the thing with me, though, is that I'm not an antisocial person, but when I am doing my forest stuff, I don't like a lot of crowds.

01:05:29.79
Mike
Right. Mm-hmm.

01:05:32.59
Shirley 
That kind of defeats the whole purpose, you know?

01:05:32.55
Mike
Right. I mean, you know, I mean, right. I mean, and it apparently it's it's a great fun. I don't, I've never been. um You know, that's why i pay my mortgage so I don't have to lay in the dirt anymore.

01:05:46.45
Mike
anymore um

01:05:48.16
Bill
anymore

01:05:49.54
Mike
Right. But no, I mean, there's cabins there and there's hotels in the area.

01:05:52.48
Shirley 
Yeah.

01:05:53.62
Mike
And I mean, people do varying degrees of camping, quote unquote.

01:05:55.02
Shirley 
no

01:05:57.66
Mike
There's my air quotes for this episode.

01:05:59.81
Shirley 
Yeah.

01:05:59.88
Mike
Camping. um Right. But yeah, it's, you know, a bunch of people I know are going out there this weekend and it's, yeah, it's, you know, it's like Friday through Sunday and they have big meetings and, you know, prayer circles and blah, blah, blah.

01:06:14.03
Mike
Supposedly it's great. know, maybe one of these days if I can get a cabin and not have to share it.

01:06:20.54
Bill
right well they the yeah maybe people have been talking about that shit well we were i mean from the time we got sober

01:06:22.00
Mike
things

01:06:26.41
Bill
and i remember people saying oh you guys ought to come or you ought and like hey

01:06:26.48
Mike
Yeah.

01:06:29.63
Mike
Right.

01:06:31.14
Bill
you know can i maybe maybe it would

01:06:31.23
Mike
Mm hmm.

01:06:31.78
Shirley 
Right. Right.

01:06:32.52
Bill
i mean it's just like when we did the whole thing with with mara i mean we

01:06:35.59
Mike
Right.

01:06:36.27
Bill
we went because obviously we got asked to speak there but um it was enjoyable i'm not saying that i would ah that i wouldn't ever go back to that i

01:06:43.65
Mike
Mm hmm.

01:06:44.31
Bill
um you know clearly haven't made up you know a habit of doing it you know twice a year since then or anything like that but

01:06:48.70
Mike
Right. man mean I think it's three times a year.

01:06:51.36
Bill
oh is it for the one that they do yeah there's

01:06:52.65
Mike
Yeah.

01:06:53.62
Bill
they're i know they're i know they're everywhere we should gary

01:06:53.59
Mike
excuse

01:06:55.99
Bill
gar talked about um

01:06:57.11
Mike
Right.

01:06:57.31
Bill
you know he goes to at least two if not three a year i think i know toobe for sure he goes too

01:07:00.24
Mike
Mm-hmm.

01:07:02.41
Bill
i know they're all over to place but um yeah you know what it's funny the um i was listening it as somebody you're talking to somebody the other day i can't remember who it was it was you know kind of talking about loneliness and stuff like that you know at a certain time i like oh man loneliness is a bitch and this and that and i'm like

01:07:14.68
Mike
Mm-hmm.

01:07:19.06
Bill
is it though i mean you know but but here's the thing and i qualify that only with the fact that

01:07:24.99
Shirley 
I'm going to started.

01:07:25.16
Bill
um even though i mean i work remote when i when i travel obviously by myself but i don't know the the beauty of this you know kind of this whole program thing is at any point if i do feel here's my air quotes lonely

01:07:38.70
Mike
Right.

01:07:39.06
Bill
um you know i can i can find a meeting you know um i can i can go out and find people sometimes just going to one of these hiking trails i'm like fuck there's shit goddamn people here leave me alone i want to just b you know kind of like what you were just talking about shortly but other times it's just like you know it's it's okay it's okay being around people seeing some other you know some other souls out in this area whatever the case is but um i don't know i just i don't i don't know if it's gotten that way maybe just sobriety we've talked about it mike you know being comfortable in our own skin and whatever it is

01:08:09.39
Shirley 
I can choose

01:08:10.82
Mike
Yeah, absolutely.

01:08:13.24
Bill
um i do like being around people i miss um miss human interaction but i know it's not like i'm i'm not hindered from it i choose to do things sometimes but i know i can choose to do it i could get with somebody if i wanted i could go spend time with people you know

01:08:28.53
Mike
Right.

01:08:30.72
Shirley 
Yeah, I like to have that balance. um My job that I have is very, i deal with people all day long. It's very high pressure.

01:08:39.11
Mike
Yeah.

01:08:41.10
Shirley 
And so my favorite part of the day is coming home. too quiet. I mean, no, I listen to music and all that, but you know, it's just getting away from all that.

01:08:47.31
Mike
Yeah.

01:08:52.11
Shirley 
I don't want to be on the phone.

01:08:53.74
Mike
he

01:08:54.03
Shirley 
i don't want to, I don't want to be doing anything except what I want to do, you know?

01:08:56.46
Mike
yeah

01:08:59.68
Bill
right

01:08:59.85
Shirley 
um But yeah, like the idea of going out and partying or going to the bar or anything now is just like, yeah, you know, like last, last week I had to go to a work event and you know, five minutes the, the drinks are open and drinking. And put in my hour and I left.

01:09:19.68
Bill
right

01:09:20.08
Mike
yeah

01:09:21.85
Shirley 
You know, I'm just like, I am so glad. the Honestly, like there are times. Oh, yeah. So last summer I was at a work event and it was like in the heat of summer.

01:09:35.04
Shirley 
It was outside and I had just taken my youngest off to college, you know, just dropped her off at her dorm and was heading back and then stopped off to this event, work event.

01:09:42.39
Mike
Hmm.

01:09:48.70
Shirley 
And I probably was a little dehydrated. I don't know. But after I put in my time, one of my coworkers is like, do you want me to call you an Uber? I said, what?

01:09:56.33
Mike
Hmm.

01:09:57.62
Shirley 
And he goes, do you need an Uber?

01:09:57.62
Mike
Hmm.

01:10:00.49
Shirley 
I said, no, why? And he goes, you seem a little over-served. I started laughing so hard.

01:10:04.75
Mike
it he

01:10:06.90
Shirley 
I'm like, dude, dude. i I go, you could give me breathalyzer right now. I go, I do not have a drop of alcohol in my body.

01:10:12.44
Mike
see

01:10:16.01
Shirley 
He's like, really? And I was like, don't know if that's a compliment or an insult, but but I just, no, just think that,

01:10:22.72
Mike
Right. Yeah. I'm just all, I'm all fucked up on my own. Thank you. Yeah.

01:10:29.56
Shirley 
You know, i was laughing all the way home and I thought, you know what? I had a really good time.

01:10:34.93
Mike
ah

01:10:35.23
Shirley 
i didn't need to drink. And people still thought I was drunk. Like, what the hell? oh It just cracked me up. I was like, okay, so now I've gotten to the point where I can pretty much go to just about any event and be okay, you know.

01:10:49.62
Mike
Mm-hmm.

01:10:50.97
Bill
right

01:10:50.89
Mike
Yeah.

01:10:52.10
Shirley 
But i won't I will not say it's easy. But I mean, it it wasn't easy getting to that.

01:10:55.67
Mike
Yeah.

01:10:58.70
Shirley 
Let me just say, um that's what I meant.

01:10:59.69
Mike
Mm-hmm.

01:11:00.22
Shirley 
it it It wasn't easy getting to that place. You know, i can remember the first time that i I think it was my mom's birthday or something.

01:11:03.45
Mike
Right.

01:11:03.76
Bill
right

01:11:08.42
Shirley 
We were like in a bar restaurant and my chi my seat was facing the bar. So I'm literally just sitting there staring at all the glint, the light glinting off those smooth, pretty little bottles of all their different shades of amber

01:11:15.45
Mike
Right.

01:11:20.84
Mike
ah huh

01:11:24.27
Shirley 
and I was pissed, you know.

01:11:28.63
Shirley 
But I'm not that way anymore. You know, I could tell you there's 12 bottles of alcohol in my office kitchen.

01:11:30.08
Mike
Right.

01:11:34.30
Shirley 
There's 12. I know. I know the inventory.

01:11:35.38
Mike
Of course. Of course you do.

01:11:36.50
Shirley 
Okay.

01:11:38.71
Mike
Why wouldn't you?

01:11:39.22
Bill
but you know the in the

01:11:40.60
Shirley 
Okay.

01:11:41.02
Bill
the thing it is when you talk about a long you know long time getting to that point it was um and i was just trying to think back mike it was probably in the last five years that i got comfortable being where i don't i don't care anymore be it out at an event like that

01:11:51.75
Mike
Mm-hmm. Right. Right.

01:11:54.72
Bill
but you and i wait what year did we go to lead a four two thousand sixteen seven sixteen right

01:11:56.23
Shirley 
We go

01:11:59.75
Mike
Yeah, maybe.

01:12:00.21
Shirley 
to 3-4, 2016.

01:12:00.51
Mike
Yeah.

01:12:00.80
Bill
that sounds right

01:12:01.15
Shirley 
Good,

01:12:01.51
Bill
okay

01:12:01.61
Mike
Sounds about right.

01:12:02.67
Bill
so i mean

01:12:02.72
Mike
Yeah.

01:12:03.67
Bill
so that was what nine nine years ago but it was

01:12:04.27
Shirley 
really?

01:12:06.03
Mike
Mm-hmm.

01:12:06.39
Bill
i would have never gone to that with anyone but him under no circumstance it it was really weird you know because um i was in i'd been to plenty of those type of events it seemed like summer fest which was a big drinking event all everything was like that

01:12:14.48
Shirley 
like, think it

01:12:19.84
Shirley 
was like, had go up to the beer temp

01:12:20.18
Mike
Right.

01:12:20.41
Bill
and we had to go up to the you know to to the beer tent table you know to get water or so it was which was weird

01:12:24.50
Mike
Mm-hmm.

01:12:24.89
Shirley 
Yeah.

01:12:26.35
Mike
Right.

01:12:27.78
Bill
um lot of people drink it around us but when that was the first time i noticed too that cause mike mike's like here we're going up here and we're like i mean within spitting distance and leada forward which is great in these remember those chicks in front of us to just dance and do whatever and then she's like i get ah

01:12:40.26
Mike
Mm-hmm.

01:12:42.22
Bill
hey

01:12:42.92
Mike
he

01:12:43.78
Bill
and she she go walk up back with a drinke and like i not even fifteen minutes later twenty minutes i get ah pe got back together this and that

01:12:50.91
Shirley 
yeah

01:12:51.64
Bill
and then the the first big concert i went to was ah fo fighters in two thousand that would have been july twenty one so obviously after the pandemic and the same thing i stood there for two and a half hours didn't walk out didn't have to go to the bathroom

01:13:01.06
Shirley 
Yeah.

01:13:06.18
Shirley 
um

01:13:06.60
Bill
and was standing way at the back up on top of this this amphitheater type of outdoor stadium and just noticed that there was a constant stream of people going back and forth bathroom beer bathroom beer bathroom wine and i'm like god like mike always says you know enjoy the freedom you know and

01:13:24.89
Mike
Yeah. help

01:13:25.21
Shirley 
yeah

01:13:25.74
Bill
i it was i was not uncomfortable um but the same thing like you just said twelve bottles whatever i notice all the liquor stores anyplace i go i notice when i walk in to a thing it's like my eyes will catch a liquor you know into a store or catch a liquor section in a grocery store um i notice when people are buying what they're buying

01:13:42.89
Shirley 
hu

01:13:43.14
Bill
um you know just i do this inventory in my head um shit i was at a getgo years ago mike remember that we were going to a meeting and

01:13:49.95
Mike
yeah

01:13:50.70
Bill
like i stopped for coffee and this guy had ah twelve pack he graed a pack of cigarettes and something

01:14:00.02
Bill
said that's a decent start

01:14:02.06
Mike
Yeah.

01:14:03.02
Bill
you know twelve packt a pack of cigarettes i'm like hey they't go to get me through the night you know

01:14:07.02
Mike
Yeah.

01:14:07.51
Bill
um i mean i was sober at the time but that just that thought patternter was errored it is it it's it's a weirdness in an uncomfortableness um you know but yeah once you once you kind of break through it it's ah enjoy the freedom i guess is's the biggest thing that i love when mike said that to me the one time

01:14:20.89
Mike
yeah c

01:14:23.60
Shirley 
Oh, yeah. You know, I went to, I think it was two years ago, I went to a concert by myself. And I've never done that before, drunk or, you know, ever.

01:14:32.34
Mike
Mm hmm. Right.

01:14:33.20
Shirley 
But I wanted to go see Jack White because I'm a fan.

01:14:37.70
Mike
Cool.

01:14:38.27
Shirley 
And I missed his first show at the Masonic. So the second show came out in Flint. And I just jumped right on it and I got my tickets right away. But I couldn't get two tickets together.

01:14:50.96
Shirley 
So I decided, fuck it, I'll just go myself to Flint to go see Jack White, you know.

01:14:53.05
Mike
Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Yeah.

01:14:56.05
Shirley 
But you know what? That was my first time going to a concert, Stone Cold Sober.

01:15:02.20
Shirley 
I had such a good time.

01:15:04.30
Bill
right

01:15:04.27
Mike
Mm-hmm.

01:15:04.56
Shirley 
I was like like on a natural high. Like you guys said, like as the evening wore on, I noticed the floor was getting stickier and stickier with all the drinks getting kicked over.

01:15:12.41
Mike
Mm-hmm.

01:15:15.24
Shirley 
The lady, the ah couple next to me, the woman kept falling into me and her husband kept pulling her back. Come on, honey, stand up straight, you know. And I just enjoyed every moment of that concert everything.

01:15:31.13
Shirley 
You know, when I went in line and got my water, some people were giving me shit about it, you know, and I was just like, whatever. you know, good luck.

01:15:39.68
Bill
people were giving you shit about getting water

01:15:41.89
Shirley 
Yeah, because I said something like I said, I'll have two 100 proof H2Os, you know, just to be funny.

01:15:46.38
Mike
me

01:15:48.14
Bill
right

01:15:49.22
Shirley 
And the guy knew what I, the guy who was selling knew, but the people behind me were like, what?

01:15:51.73
Mike
Sure. Right.

01:15:53.97
Shirley 
Come on, live a little, you know, and I was just like, I was like, you know what?

01:15:55.48
Mike
Right.

01:16:00.68
Shirley 
me at two o'clock in the morning. I'll be feeling fine. I don't know about you, you know, or whatever, but...

01:16:04.24
Mike
from right

01:16:07.54
Shirley 
But it was like a real, it was my sponsor at the time was saying, I don't think you should do this, Shirley.

01:16:13.08
Mike
Hmm.

01:16:13.58
Shirley 
really don't think you should. and then she's like, call me. Keep your phone handy. Little did she know back then, Jack White made you put your phone into a locked case, right?

01:16:23.65
Mike
Right.

01:16:24.08
Shirley 
you know you couldn't You couldn't use your phones at his concerts. But I was totally fine. And i I was so glad I did that. So that kind of gave me

01:16:33.41
Mike
Mm hmm.

01:16:35.85
Shirley 
a little more courage to do other things. You know, like there is life after partying.

01:16:38.19
Mike
Yeah. Absolutely.

01:16:42.10
Shirley 
And honestly, today at five years and some change, I could can say that I don't want to say I've never been happier, but in kind of, kind of in a way I've never been happier.

01:16:54.19
Shirley 
I've have contentment and peace.

01:16:56.05
Mike
Yeah.

01:16:56.28
Bill
right

01:16:57.85
Shirley 
And that is priceless.

01:16:57.89
Mike
Yeah. Absolutely. I ain't giving this shit up for nothing.

01:17:00.22
Shirley 
Can't buy that at a store. Yeah.

01:17:02.46
Mike
Right. I'm not giving that up for 20 minutes of, yeah. Feeling good.

01:17:09.85
Bill
right well like like you just said too and you know two in the morning and feeling fine and stuff like that and'

01:17:10.63
Shirley 
yeah

01:17:23.52
Bill
do whatever the hell we want ah we don't have to worry about we could still get in a car

01:17:25.40
Mike
Mm-hmm.

01:17:28.30
Bill
you know and i've had you know get my sons called me for a ride doing this whole traveling thing you know i like get up at you know fucking one in the morning and i'm leaving at three in the morning from someplace and i'd never be able to do that if i was drinking i would just stay up all night i'd be drunk still

01:17:41.10
Mike
right

01:17:42.97
Bill
i couldn't i would be able to do this or'd do my job i wouldn't be ah i wouldn't be alive we know that but

01:17:47.72
Mike
see

01:17:48.56
Bill
um i mean just having that again that freedom and and sort of stuff so quick question with the job stuff surely so do you think i mean you you don't work remote now you actually still go into work

01:18:00.41
Shirley 
Oh, yeah, I love it. I don't want to. I mean, I have had work from home jobs and they served me when my children were young.

01:18:05.59
Bill
right

01:18:09.95
Shirley 
But I really do thrive on having a routine. I like getting up in the morning. I like going into the office.

01:18:16.26
Bill
right

01:18:17.95
Shirley 
I like what I do. I work in real estate closing. So, you know, I'm dealing with lots of different people all day long and, um, lots of challenges and we're in our busy season right now.

01:18:23.85
Bill
oh yeah right

01:18:30.53
Shirley 
So like from as soon as the weather gets warm until the weather gets shitty,

01:18:36.82
Mike
It doesn't. Right.

01:18:38.60
Bill
hey

01:18:40.23
Shirley 
we're busy busy, busy, busy, busy. You know, we only have like maybe December, January, February, a little bit into March that we're slow, but right now we're just slammed.

01:18:49.82
Bill
right

01:18:52.93
Bill
and ah and the reason i i asked you that it was just kind of curious of you know do you

01:18:53.72
Shirley 
Oh.

01:18:57.03
Bill
do you think you would be able to with that cause you said you know once once you were working ro remote before the the stay at home thing of doing this and then you found that do you think you would you would be able even if you let's say if i know you like doing actually going to work but

01:19:06.78
Shirley 
oh

01:19:12.12
Bill
do you think discipline now or do you feel that that would be a different story if you had to do that now would you be able to do the difference

01:19:19.38
Shirley 
I don't know. i mean, I think because i live in a small space.

01:19:24.30
Bill
think your microphone just went out

01:19:25.93
Mike
Yeah, I think you unplugged something.

01:19:26.30
Shirley 
Oh. Uh-oh.

01:19:29.20
Mike
There, we be back?

01:19:31.05
Shirley 
Am I back?

01:19:31.75
Mike
You're back.

01:19:31.84
Bill
yeah now um who was it tom farley pull ah out his microphone and shut us all shut us all down a few episodes ago so

01:19:35.91
Mike
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

01:19:40.20
Shirley 
Is everything good?

01:19:41.03
Mike
yeah

01:19:41.13
Bill
yeah you're you're back now

01:19:43.22
Shirley 
I guess I'm not used to having this thing in my head. I think I... ah no i um There are times sometimes when I do have to work from home, like let's say the power's out at the office or whatever, my car's in the shop.

01:19:57.18
Bill
right

01:19:57.45
Shirley 
And it's okay for a day or two. But I just think for my mental health, especially, i don't live in a house like I used to, you know, where I would have like a dedicated place to work or I could go sit outside on the patio or whatever.

01:20:05.31
Bill
right

01:20:10.53
Shirley 
No, I mean, I live in a small space. So to me, it would it would to me it would feel like being in prison.

01:20:17.01
Mike
Mmm.

01:20:17.28
Bill
right right no and i and i get that

01:20:18.94
Shirley 
Like I should just put on my orange jumpsuit every morning, you know?

01:20:22.05
Mike
Mmm.

01:20:31.93
Bill
early two thousand s i mean when before it was even like a common thing and and i was drinking at the time and it was it was a bad setup you know i mean its a time i thought it was fucking great but um i mean i know better there that's why i say there's no way that i could do this now to have this type of isolation and in freedom if i was still drinking it just it never worked but it never bothered me when i started doing it again um and especially what you even when you know having to begin with i was it obviously at our sisters and it's not like people weren't around you know obviously

01:21:03.97
Bill
later on during the day and stuff like that i had a house to myself during the day but um it's i like it because it allows me obviously do what i'm doing but it it never bothered me from again it's the the discipline and the difference in who i am um i've never it's not a problem for me doing it and i despised going into the office i think just got to that point where i'm like fuck man i'm just done with this i never want to go into an office again if i ever if i don't have to you know but

01:21:32.08
Shirley 
Um, yeah, you know, I get into it with, with certain people in my life about this all the time. Some people would just want everyone to work from home, you know, and I'm like, well, I guess it depends on what your work is.

01:21:44.95
Shirley 
You know, I used to be a writer and an editor and that can be done from home and I can work at three o'clock in the morning if I want to doing that job, you know, but the job I do has to be done during business hours, you know?

01:21:45.16
Bill
right

01:21:49.42
Mike
Mm-hmm.

01:21:59.43
Bill
so if you if you work theoretically remotely you'd have to either meet people places or you know go to their homes or whatever the case is so you'd still have to be someplace right

01:22:00.67
Shirley 
Yeah.

01:22:06.30
Shirley 
i You know what? Yeah, it was it was a hot mess during the pandemic because the people were like closing in garages on the hoods of cars, passing papers through windows.

01:22:16.32
Mike
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

01:22:17.49
Shirley 
And it was just all so ridiculous, you know.

01:22:17.63
Bill
right

01:22:21.40
Shirley 
But the fallout of that is a lot of people in our office never came back.

01:22:25.53
Bill
right

01:22:25.95
Shirley 
They don't want to.

01:22:27.06
Bill
right

01:22:27.84
Shirley 
And I, you know, so, but it's it's a personal choice. And for me, um you know, being at this point in my life, an empty nester and all that, that I do like having that interaction during the day.

01:22:40.24
Shirley 
And I do like being able to get away from it when I come home and I don't like mixing my space, you know, my home is my refuge.

01:22:42.74
Mike
Yeah.

01:22:45.42
Bill
right no and yeah that makes sense

01:22:48.40
Shirley 
Yeah. Yeah.

01:22:57.76
Bill
our our mom worked for johnson controls for a number of years um and they had this building downtown for probably every bit of twenty years if not twenty five and during the pandemic they just so many people went they moved the remaining people that were still going to come into the office they moved to a different office and they actually gave they gave up the building you know and there was a lot of there was ah a few other bigger companies in the milwaukee area that did that i know all over the place

01:23:23.92
Shirley 
They realized that it was a place.

01:23:24.77
Bill
they realize that you know why do we have all this office

01:23:30.52
Bill
my understanding is that people if i lived in of the chicago land area i could if i wanted to i could go into the opposite work i wouldn't have to be remote but they just assume that everyone wants to you know but if i wanted to i could go into the office but i have no desire to and i'm not in chicago but um yeah it is and like you say i mean i get it you know it is it's ah it's a separation of you know of space and mike for you to work remote you'd have to live in a truck full time so

01:23:58.69
Mike
Right. Yeah. Now I'm not doing that. Or drive my truck in my living room, which wouldn't work either. So, right.

01:24:04.22
Bill
well you know what

01:24:05.22
Shirley 
yeah

01:24:05.49
Bill
um i don't know you get the right get the right you know get contractor and stuff like that she just pull right up and it's a big house it could fit a truck if it was set up right

01:24:09.43
Mike
Sure. and Well, yeah. Right. yeah

01:24:14.09
Bill
could you could you imagine you just pull into your front yard your your house a big fucking mouth opens up but you just drive into your like good living room would

01:24:22.87
Shirley 
Like the Batcave.

01:24:23.09
Bill
the

01:24:23.80
Shirley 
Mm-hmm.

01:24:24.14
Bill
yeah really

01:24:24.23
Mike
Right.

01:24:25.78
Bill
yeah he seriously though we yeah speaking to that though we have to at some point we got to run video or pictures to do something in your house we have to do ah

01:24:33.95
Mike
anything

01:24:34.30
Bill
ah tour for people that could be that might be the only time we we do a video like a full video is just you can walk through and you can explain everything in your in your house it's which i know you'll love so but that's one of

01:24:46.03
Mike
Yeah, sure.

01:24:46.95
Bill
make it even more fun even though you don't like talking to people like that i think that i i do think you'd have fun doing it i i think

01:24:52.58
Mike
I would. Sure.

01:24:55.10
Bill
yeah his his house is a museum right to sing the song mike

01:24:57.79
Mike
Right. People come to see him. Really is a scream.

01:25:01.26
Shirley 
Oh, it's like the Addams Family? is it what you're Yeah, okay.

01:25:05.77
Mike
Yes.

01:25:06.42
Bill
ah yeah yeah

01:25:06.67
Mike
Yes. Creepy and I'm kooky.

01:25:09.60
Shirley 
okay

01:25:10.59
Bill
and it's that

01:25:10.75
Shirley 
Altogether ookie.

01:25:11.74
Mike
Yes, I am.

01:25:12.28
Bill
and it's it's not even like the adams family it is exactly the adams family

01:25:16.95
Shirley 
Oh, my God.

01:25:18.42
Bill
so so quick question though um and you know i maybe and mean this to be personal but you had talked about the therapy thing and you know we have people talk we've talked to people i see it on social media and stuff like that so

01:25:25.49
Shirley 
Yeah.

01:25:30.18
Bill
i know there's certain individuals that do you know maybe do a church thing people step thing people also do a therapy thing with the exception of that time that you were dealing with that one therapist have you found any and don't even want to say refuge any benefit from a therapy standpoint from ah

01:25:46.81
Shirley 
I, well, I'm somebody that's been in and out of therapy all my life.

01:25:47.12
Bill
recovery standpoint

01:25:51.06
Shirley 
So I, I don't remember the first time I went, but I know I was young.

01:25:51.60
Bill
okay

01:25:59.00
Shirley 
And, uh, cause there's a lot of like, my family has a lot of, there was a lot of, uh, dysfunction.

01:26:06.42
Mike
okay

01:26:06.89
Shirley 
My dad was, and i I don't think I mentioned that my dad was, I mentioned my dad was an alcoholic and he died at 58.

01:26:11.84
Bill
oh no no no no

01:26:13.92
Shirley 
So, yeah so we grew up in that kind of ah a household, right?

01:26:18.37
Mike
Right.

01:26:18.52
Shirley 
You know, and my dad died young-ish.

01:26:23.63
Shirley 
And there was just a lot surrounding that. I didn't really get into that part of the story.

01:26:29.17
Bill
right

01:26:29.85
Shirley 
um So we had gone to family therapy for a while. And then I went on to individual therapy and off and on for years. And now I'm just kind of at the point like that last one I went to, my doctor sent me there.

01:26:44.43
Mike
Right. But you were looking for Xanax.

01:26:45.51
Shirley 
and, i was like I know, right? And she and honestly honestly, I don't even remember her name.

01:26:49.20
Bill
it's it's the best

01:26:51.87
Shirley 
I didn't really like her. She was very mean. you know, she wouldn't give me Xanax and she she was she was not taking any of my crap.

01:26:55.30
Mike
She'd give you Xanax. Yeah, so fuck her. Right. Yeah. so fucker

01:27:03.89
Shirley 
She wasn't co co-signing my BS.

01:27:06.23
Mike
right

01:27:06.45
Bill
right

01:27:07.16
Shirley 
She told me what I needed to hear and I'm always be appreciative of that, but

01:27:08.76
Mike
yeah

01:27:11.38
Shirley 
the pandemic hit, she shut down. um they were talking about maybe an IOP for me, you know, intensive outpatient, but that never happened.

01:27:20.59
Bill
right

01:27:23.30
Shirley 
And, um, no, I haven't because I feel like with my, with all the various tools of my recovery right now, um you know, and I have like hour long sessions every week with my sponsor

01:27:32.45
Mike
Mm hmm. Mm

01:27:38.12
Mike
Sure.

01:27:38.51
Bill
right

01:27:40.19
Shirley 
And the two it's interesting, real quick, I met this woman a couple years ago, and we just clicked. And then when my former sponsor moved, she relocated out of state, and I was sponsorless.

01:27:52.37
Mike
Right.

01:27:52.93
Shirley 
um I asked her, and she was like, I thought you'd never ask. Like, we just, it was like we were such a good fit for each other, you know.

01:27:57.29
Mike
Yeah.

01:28:01.41
Bill
right

01:28:02.75
Shirley 
um Not to say that she's my therapy, but I think she, Right out of the gate, nine times out of ten, when I tell her about something, she knows what I'm talking about.

01:28:11.18
Mike
right

01:28:12.03
Shirley 
It's not like where you're saying something to someone and they're like, going, okay.

01:28:12.02
Bill
right

01:28:16.91
Mike
yeah

01:28:18.00
Shirley 
Okay.

01:28:19.40
Mike
Right. Well, yeah, I mean, that's the beauty of AA is, you know, it's it's one drunk helping another. We understand each other like other people can't. You know, yeah, some some guy or woman or whatever that, you know, read something in a book 20 years ago can't fucking relate to me.

01:28:37.41
Mike
I don't expect them to, you know, but I walk into church basement and and, you know, say three words and they go, oh, yeah, I've been in there.

01:28:43.52
Shirley 
Yeah.

01:28:46.77
Shirley 
Right. Yeah.

01:28:47.18
Mike
Yeah.

01:28:48.44
Shirley 
So, I mean, that's kind of where I'm at right now. I mean, I'm not not open to it.

01:28:50.87
Mike
Yeah.

01:28:53.39
Shirley 
I just feel kind of like to me, a good long walk on a beautiful day in the woods has so much therapeutic value.

01:28:53.72
Mike
Mm-hmm.

01:28:59.64
Mike
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

01:29:01.26
Bill
right

01:29:03.54
Mike
Yeah, absolutely.

01:29:04.55
Shirley 
If you allow it to.

01:29:05.89
Bill
yeah well you know and the only reason i ask i don't make a habit of walking around people and be like hey you in therapy

01:29:06.02
Mike
Mm-hmm.

01:29:11.18
Bill
but you would you had mentioned that and then that that part of the story stopped and i didn't know was more to it

01:29:12.61
Shirley 
Yeah.

01:29:15.55
Shirley 
Oh.

01:29:15.93
Bill
and and you know

01:29:16.26
Shirley 
Yeah.

01:29:16.84
Bill
and the thing of it is is it it it intrigues me only in the sense that i'm i'm curious where people get their help and it's eye opening to be not that i here's the way that i look at it this is another thing i was talking about with a friend of mine the other day um and what i told her was i'm like i'm like here's the thing i'm like at this point in in my life and this point in this journey um i mean i've done a ton of work on myself with other people thankfully had you know good people that and we have to had good people walk us through this thing

01:29:45.52
Mike
Mm-hmm.

01:29:46.95
Bill
um

01:29:47.33
Shirley 
have some in

01:29:47.47
Bill
you know and i have i have my in order in an order that's not killing me and in an order that's not harming other people at the moment you know and do i think that there's some sort of um in my past probably the you know the trauma quote unquote and all these different things and all the things that everyone talks about but you know what i it's not that i'm afraid of it but i don't need to i everything's good for me right now

01:30:16.93
Mike
Right.

01:30:17.06
Bill
and all these things are taken care of i've made my amends i've made my peace with all these fucking people and i don't mean that in a bad way but all these people in my life you know' what i mean people that i feel have harmed me i've figured out my part and all the things that we talk about

01:30:28.09
Mike
ha

01:30:29.82
Bill
i don't need a therapist trying to pick apart and say let's dig all the way back and let's pick at that that wound lets open her back up no i don't i don't want to do that but

01:30:39.29
Mike
ah

01:30:40.51
Bill
if i was really messed up in the head first thing i would do i'd go to the you know this this guy who sitting over there on the other end of the microphone

01:30:47.85
Mike
Hi there.

01:30:47.95
Bill
i mean this this podcast and and mike i mean those are the first two things that we talk about a lot on here but um you know

01:30:55.60
Shirley 
Yeah, you do.

01:30:56.34
Bill
i go to i go to mike all the time you know on certain things we talked about a lot of things deeply over the years so um you know but because i know he's go to get it i know i can go to my my our sister with stuff but you know only he's going to get certain things that i'm talking about

01:31:10.29
Shirley 
Right.

01:31:10.24
Bill
and i don't need to um i don't need to you know spend money to go like mike might just said somebody that read something in a book ah you know eighteen years ago or whatever it was or even somebody that's that's a you know in the program and stuff like that why do i get to go pay that person

01:31:26.30
Mike
Yeah.

01:31:26.39
Bill
but i got somebody for free over here you know

01:31:28.80
Mike
Mm-hmm.

01:31:29.06
Bill
and he's got somebody for free over here

01:31:29.15
Shirley 
Yeah.

01:31:31.04
Mike
Exactly.

01:31:31.26
Bill
i've got a sir i've got

01:31:31.72
Mike
Mm-hmm.

01:31:32.72
Bill
thousands of therapists at my fingertips on a day-to dayto-day basis you know

01:31:37.71
Shirley 
Well, that and my time spent in my ah Buddhist training, um one of the things they teach in the particular sect of Buddhism that I was studying is that you are your own savior.

01:31:44.06
Mike
Mm-hmm.

01:31:54.25
Mike
Mm-hmm.

01:31:54.81
Bill
right

01:31:55.45
Mike
Absolutely.

01:31:55.71
Shirley 
And I always like that.

01:31:57.00
Mike
Yeah, right.

01:31:57.83
Shirley 
you You are in this moment. This is the only moment that you have. The moment behind you is gone.

01:32:02.89
Mike
Mm-hmm.

01:32:03.40
Shirley 
The moment ahead of you is unknown. You have this moment. What are you doing with it?

01:32:08.22
Mike
Absolutely.

01:32:08.39
Bill
right

01:32:09.03
Shirley 
You know?

01:32:09.24
Mike
Yeah.

01:32:10.30
Shirley 
And how are you?

01:32:10.29
Mike
Yeah. i'm sitting I'm sitting here in my house and everything's fine. Yeah. why why why Why am I going to stir shit up?

01:32:15.20
Shirley 
Right.

01:32:17.64
Mike
There's plenty of shit to stir, but why am I going to do that? That's insane.

01:32:20.82
Shirley 
so yeah So, you know, I had a meditation practice that I don't do like I used to, but it was very beneficial to me at the time because it made me realize where my mind went.

01:32:26.21
Mike
Mm-hmm.

01:32:32.04
Shirley 
When I, you know, it's like you let a dog out without a fence. Where does it go?

01:32:35.23
Mike
Mm-hmm.

01:32:35.99
Shirley 
It goes right to the shit.

01:32:37.53
Mike
Yep.

01:32:37.92
Bill
yeah

01:32:39.11
Shirley 
Right?

01:32:39.88
Bill
right

01:32:39.87
Mike
Yep. Absolutely.

01:32:40.68
Shirley 
So it's kind of like the more you can recognize that. And I've just even recognized that just through everything that I do. Um, you know, especially when I'm upset, like, like this last couple of weeks have been kind of crazy.

01:32:54.28
Shirley 
You know, I got no sleep last night cause you know, we had like this supposedly these horrid storm system moving through the sirens are going off.

01:33:03.56
Mike
Mm-hmm.

01:33:04.73
Shirley 
The alerts were going off all night. Nobody got a damn bit of sleep. So, and then nothing happened. Apparently if you lived East of Lansing, nothing happened, but, um,

01:33:11.56
Mike
Mm-hmm. Right.

01:33:14.90
Mike
Mm-hmm.

01:33:17.12
Shirley 
You know, so it made me like in a really cranky mood all day. And, you know, all everything gets under your skin. And it's like, you know, I'm at the crossroads here. I can be a jerk or I can just be quiet.

01:33:30.57
Shirley 
You know, don't have to.

01:33:30.52
Mike
Mm-hmm.

01:33:33.07
Shirley 
No one cares that you didn't get any sleep.

01:33:34.10
Mike
Yeah, exactly.

01:33:35.48
Shirley 
You know, just be nice.

01:33:36.37
Mike
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

01:33:39.22
Bill
yeah you come on here and talk talk to your friends

01:33:43.02
Shirley 
Well, you know, I did have some anxiety, too, you know, about doing this because I'm like, oh, I did.

01:33:46.71
Mike
yeah

01:33:46.85
Bill
did you really

01:33:48.34
Shirley 
Because I'm not um not really a, well, I've never been on a podcast before.

01:33:48.66
Bill
really

01:33:54.28
Shirley 
I'll tell you that. But I don't even like, I've never even done an open talk, you know. So, um

01:34:02.55
Mike
Yeah, well, see, wasn't too bad, was it?

01:34:04.11
Shirley 
you know.

01:34:05.14
Bill
yeah i was going to say does does it seem like we've been talking for an hour and a half

01:34:08.64
Shirley 
No. So I guess that's good, right?

01:34:11.34
Bill
that is a good thing that ist we just we put you in a trance style for the last hour to have we've that we've had we've had friends of ours that we've known for years that come on here

01:34:16.24
Shirley 
No. Uh-huh.

01:34:20.49
Bill
and are just beyond nervous and it's like but the it's wrong with you and i don't mean you i mean these people that we've known for years but we've had other you're fine yeah

01:34:27.70
Shirley 
Well...

01:34:32.13
Shirley 
Well, you know, it's, it's, I guess my biggest worry is that there's parts of my story that I would share in a closed meeting, but that I don't want to share on a podcast that who knows who will be listening to it.

01:34:39.32
Bill
right

01:34:41.66
Mike
Yeah.

01:34:43.78
Bill
but understood

01:34:44.04
Mike
Right.

01:34:44.61
Shirley 
It could get in the wrong hands. You know what i'm saying?

01:34:46.08
Mike
Yeah. Well, absolutely.

01:34:47.45
Shirley 
um i want to be respectful. There's parts of my story that involve other people and I don't want to,

01:34:50.77
Mike
he Absolutely.

01:34:55.88
Shirley 
you know, tell their story. So there's, there's part, there's parts I can't say out loud to in an open forum, you know?

01:34:57.34
Mike
Yeah. Right.

01:35:00.64
Mike
Yeah. Well, trust us. I mean, you know you know, we're open and honest on this thing, but we don't tell everything.

01:35:03.97
Shirley 
Yeah.

01:35:09.02
Shirley 
Right.

01:35:10.13
Bill
right and just soever everyone knows we did the first editing ever it was done to shiley story which we had to cut out

01:35:18.29
Mike
He's lying.

01:35:19.27
Bill
hey yeah that's ah that's a lie she didn't say it anything think that every

01:35:23.50
Shirley 
All right. Well,

01:35:24.38
Bill
everything she said was on here so it's it's all good just mess it with yeah

01:35:27.22
Shirley 
I got back to Detroit, Mike. I've got i've got two words for you.

01:35:30.06
Mike
yes Yeah.

01:35:33.24
Shirley 
Butthole surfers.

01:35:35.62
Mike
Good band.

01:35:37.33
Shirley 
So I went to see them in 85 at Trax.

01:35:41.59
Mike
um Okay. Okay.

01:35:42.25
Shirley 
Do you know where Trax is at?

01:35:43.25
Mike
It was after my time. I was in California in 85, but yes, I'm aware of it.

01:35:46.31
Shirley 
So it was it was it was, yeah, it was like this shithole bar on Gratiot.

01:35:51.09
Mike
Yeah. Mm-hmm.

01:35:54.13
Shirley 
I had never heard of them and my brother kept telling me about them. And I'm like, that's not a real band. And he's like, yeah.

01:35:58.93
Mike
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

01:36:00.24
Shirley 
And he's pointing to the paper and he's like, they're at tracks this weekend. So I went and um I only bring this up because I was like, when I was writing out my story, I was thinking like, Oh, remember that time you went to see the butthole surfers at tracks?

01:36:13.88
Mike
Yeah.

01:36:16.26
Shirley 
What I mean, here I was. how old was I? I don't know. I was young, and I was just this little slip of a girl.

01:36:23.74
Mike
Mm-hmm.

01:36:24.39
Shirley 
and I go to this bar, and i had to leave. I didn't even finish the show because i was, you know, like everybody was pushing and shoving, and things were being thrown in every direction.

01:36:37.29
Mike
yeah

01:36:38.48
Shirley 
There was broken glass all over the floor.

01:36:40.81
Mike
who

01:36:41.36
Shirley 
had to drop down on my hands and knees and crawl out of that place. But so I looked it up online. I'm like, I typed in butthole surfers, Detroit, 1985.

01:36:52.37
Shirley 
And this whole documentary came up.

01:36:54.07
Mike
me

01:36:55.10
Shirley 
Look it up on YouTube.

01:36:56.55
Mike
All right.

01:36:57.39
Shirley 
Apparently that's the show I was at.

01:36:58.96
Mike
yeah Right.

01:36:59.37
Shirley 
I had no idea.

01:37:00.03
Mike
Yeah.

01:37:03.06
Shirley 
I'm like, oh my God, this is insanity.

01:37:05.98
Mike
yeah yeah

01:37:09.00
Shirley 
I mean, i Bill, are you familiar with this band?

01:37:12.35
Bill
but yeah i don't go they are yeah

01:37:13.77
Shirley 
Yeah, but I mean, I'm talking about before they were famous, before they were at Lollapalooza, before they had their their one.

01:37:16.10
Mike
Right. Mm-hmm.

01:37:17.64
Bill
oh yeah yeah no i would yeah not back not back in that not back in those days

01:37:21.00
Shirley 
You should check it out sometime.

01:37:22.80
Bill
yeah

01:37:23.90
Shirley 
It's, I don't even know what words to use to describe it. It's just, well, I mean, I admit I've been watching some of the videos because it's almost like a train wreck.

01:37:28.47
Mike
Fun. Right. Mm-hmm. All

01:37:36.71
Shirley 
You can't stop looking, you know.

01:37:38.03
Mike
right.

01:37:40.12
Shirley 
like Oh my God. Anyway, I just had to bring that up because good times.

01:37:42.88
Mike
all right Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

01:37:47.10
Bill
all right so anything anything else you want you want to wrap up with anything else you want to either share with somebody tell somebody tell people out there anything anything at all

01:37:58.34
Shirley 
You know, I do want to say this because it's something I've been saying at meetings a lot lately. And I really like that younger people are um recognizing their problems earlier and doing something about it.

01:38:13.13
Bill
right

01:38:13.27
Shirley 
I feel like, I don't know if it's social media or or what, but it warms my heart, you know, and I always say to them, you've got your whole life ahead of you.

01:38:18.88
Mike
Right.

01:38:22.52
Shirley 
If you can nip this in the bud now versus waiting until you're old fart and doing it, you know, well less damage to yourself and everyone around you.

01:38:28.47
Bill
you

01:38:32.14
Mike
Right.

01:38:32.74
Shirley 
But really, I just feel like there's there's just so many different programs and ways out there now um available to people that you don't have to hide.

01:38:44.52
Shirley 
um i i mean, even the fact that I'm doing this with you guys is kind of outing myself a little bit, you know, I don't necessarily, but I felt it was important to do it because I feel like, you know, what they say are as sick as your secrets and,

01:38:49.48
Mike
here

01:38:57.72
Mike
Right.

01:38:58.13
Bill
right

01:38:59.26
Shirley 
you know we we We have to stand up stand up against this, not in a in a combative kind of social justice kind of way, but really, I mean, we're all being fed you know a lie, like a a lifestyle lie, you know?

01:39:00.00
Mike
Yeah.

01:39:12.60
Mike
who Right.

01:39:14.63
Bill
right

01:39:16.02
Mike
Yeah, right. Exactly. You know, just, I mean, that's the whole point is, is showing people that there's a different way to live.

01:39:23.59
Bill
right

01:39:23.71
Mike
you You don't have to be that slave. You don't have to, yeah, you know, you can have a better, happier life. You don't have to live that way anymore. Heard that somewhere before.

01:39:34.04
Shirley 
Right. And I'm so glad that my kids seem to be okay. You know, that was always my fear, you know, is that, um you know, especially my older daughter, because her dad and I are both, you know, recovering, you know, and I, and she seems smart enough to not go down that road or if that she did have a discovery of some sort, she took care of it before it got bad.

01:39:37.61
Mike
Right. Sure.

01:39:46.41
Mike
Right.

01:39:51.21
Mike
Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Right.

01:39:56.68
Bill
my

01:39:56.73
Mike
And yeah if it happens in the future, she knows where to go. we can be examples.

01:40:01.05
Shirley 
Right.

01:40:02.12
Bill
yeah

01:40:02.54
Shirley 
Yeah. So.

01:40:03.43
Bill
yeah that's the that's the other comforting thing is i know that same deal you know i mean like my kids were in good shape i mean like your daughter i think is the decent shape and you know just a matter of

01:40:11.37
Mike
Hmm.

01:40:12.97
Bill
um yeah i mean worst case scenario you know gosh forbid we've got family and friends and children that you know if if nothing else they've they've seen what you know we do and and they they've met a lot of our friends they see what our friends are doing too so

01:40:24.74
Mike
right

01:40:25.84
Bill
it's um yeah it's a it's good and we i mean honestly that thank you for you know obviously coming on here we didn't i didn't know that in anxiety ridden over its but and makes me laugh but i'm i'm glad you i'm glad you push through that

01:40:38.28
Mike
consistent

01:40:40.12
Bill
and

01:40:40.18
Shirley 
Well, you did all that promotion. I'm like, holy crap. Am I going to have to juggle and sing? and

01:40:46.88
Bill
no not at all

01:40:48.02
Mike
Well, you've heard this podcast before.

01:40:48.26
Bill
it's just

01:40:50.38
Mike
This is all it is, man. Just drunk, drunks and junkies talking to each other.

01:40:52.19
Shirley 
Yeah, I know.

01:40:52.17
Bill
yeah

01:40:53.58
Shirley 
I know. I know.

01:40:57.17
Bill
but yeah seriously yeah we we do appreciate it but we know what time it is now right mike

01:41:02.46
Shirley 
oh Pumpkin time.

01:41:05.63
Mike
right Well, thank you everyone for listening to a another episode of Sober Not Mature. Thank you so much, Shirley, or whatever the fuck your name is, for coming on here.

01:41:19.40
Shirley 
You're welcome.

01:41:19.67
Mike
And being a wonderful guest, we had a great time with you tonight. And as always, be good to each other out there. Be kind to each other. go out there do something nice for somebody else this week. And don't tell anybody you did it.

01:41:32.69
Mike
Now, from the bottom of my heart to the depths of my soul, from the beginning of time till the ends of the earth, always and eternally, fuck you.

01:41:40.70
Shirley 
Huh.

01:41:47.57
Mike
Now it's time, kids. It's time for you to fuck off. Then keep fucking off. Keep fucking off until you get to a gate with a sign on it saying, you cannot fuck off past here.

01:41:58.69
Mike
Climb over that gate. Dream the impossible dream. And keep fucking off forever.

01:42:06.60
Bill
you know what now the that little bit of echo actually actually sounded good in there i'm wondering yeah patto if it'll come across on the recording it might get it might get filtered out with whatever this thing does but

01:42:17.05
Mike
Right.

01:42:17.72
Bill
so that made it so i made it sound good like we added we meant we meant to do that

01:42:21.19
Mike
We meant to do that, Dottie.

01:42:23.10
Bill
yeah exactly

01:42:23.58
Shirley 
yeah

01:42:24.82
Bill
all right so you're not goingnna get away without telling us shirley which which one of us did you accuse of being more immature

01:42:30.35
Shirley 
You'll never get the answer to that question.

01:42:32.59
Bill
yeah

01:42:33.27
Mike
Oh, you tease.

01:42:34.25
Shirley 
i made no, I made no premises.

01:42:39.05
Bill
okay

01:42:39.14
Shirley 
ah just

01:42:41.17
Mike
as it

01:42:42.35
Bill
it's fine

01:42:42.54
Shirley 
i

01:42:44.55
Bill
it's fine you don't act no

01:42:45.47
Shirley 
You know what?

01:42:48.32
Shirley 
Some questions are better left unanswered.

01:42:50.86
Mike
Oh, man.

01:42:51.91
Bill
mystery okay

01:42:53.12
Shirley 
Yeah.

01:42:53.37
Mike
Okay.

01:42:53.72
Bill
you know what that's okay because here here's what we're going to do everyone who actually wants her to tell us email us

01:42:59.27
Mike
Mm-hmm.

01:43:01.05
Bill
and well we never get any email so this will this will really be the test here oh yeah rarely

01:43:01.07
Mike
Mm-hmm.

01:43:03.79
Shirley 
Oh, really?

01:43:05.80
Bill
we don't get any emails nobody nobody buys his coffee because we don't want them to we don't want donations we don't need people's fucking money but we get very few comments so when we get them they're really cool kind of like we your comment about the immaturity thing yeah um

01:43:17.18
Shirley 
Yeah.

01:43:17.97
Bill
you know so anyone who wants to hear it if we get enough emails that she has to tell us and i'm like go to

01:43:23.40
Shirley 
ah

01:43:23.38
Bill
to find enough did it

01:43:25.80
Mike
Right, yeah, two.

01:43:26.10
Bill
enough yeah if we get if we get i swear to god surerley we get three fucking emails

01:43:29.88
Mike
heat

01:43:32.33
Shirley 
Oh no.

01:43:33.97
Bill
if it's okay four we get four it's it man blow up our mailbox at for email

01:43:40.14
Shirley 
Yeah, alright.

01:43:41.89
Bill
yeah whatever okay so

01:43:42.87
Shirley 
Wait.

01:43:42.74
Mike
You heard it. There it is.

01:43:43.89
Shirley 
oh

01:43:44.05
Mike
Oh, she just said, all right.

01:43:44.22
Bill
yeah she just said it

01:43:45.34
Mike
Yep.

01:43:46.32
Shirley 
What?

01:43:46.30
Bill
honestsy ah just he's part of this program you just admit to it

01:43:48.21
Mike
That's right. It's program of honesty. we get four emails, you have to do it.

01:43:51.47
Bill
um go to get good

01:43:53.89
Shirley 
okie dokie

01:43:54.97
Bill
all right

01:43:55.25
Mike
ba All right.

01:43:56.99
Bill
right mike i love you brother

01:43:58.90
Mike
Love you too.

01:44:00.10
Bill
i know we'll talk soon

01:44:01.36
Mike
We shall.

01:44:02.35
Bill
and surely thank you again truly

01:44:03.90
Shirley 
hey thanks for having me on it was fun good night

01:44:05.36
Mike
It was very cool.

01:44:05.51
Bill
not a problem um right goodbye everyone

01:44:09.92
Mike
Bye.