SoberNotMature - Episode 206 (Jermaine B. - The Art Of The Autopsy)

00:00:01.62
Bill
All right, everyone, welcome once again to another episode of Sober Not Mature. And yes, the wait is over. our Our good friend, because I think you're going to be a good friend after all of this, Jermaine, our friend Jermaine's back from a few weeks ago.

00:00:11.02
Mike
Hee hee hee hee.

00:00:11.76
Jermaine Dante' 
Mm-hmm.

00:00:17.83
Bill
And i'm I'm going to say that I think that this conversation is going to be worth the wait. We're really excited to have you on, the obviously, the first time and glad you you were able to come back. And obviously, you know we appreciate it.

00:00:29.58
Bill
So thank you for coming back. um And then do us a favor, and just real quick, just a very, very brief intro, minute or two, who you are, where you're where you're from, just a brief background, and then we'll get into everything with you, okay?

00:00:43.03
Jermaine Dante' 
Yeah, gentlemen, thank you. Happy Friday. I appreciate you having me on and I appreciate your patience. ah My name is Jermaine Dante Burse. I am a visual professional visual fine artist.

00:00:54.31
Jermaine Dante' 
I've been um a fine artist for well over a decade now. I'm also a level two psalm and a recently published author. ah Right now, my memoir, Autopsy of My Former Self, has been sitting um around number 17 in the US for a couple of weeks now, so I'm excited about that.

00:01:11.35
Bill
Nice.

00:01:12.11
Mike
Cool.

00:01:12.34
Jermaine Dante' 
ah You know, and and I'm a father and and I coach high school basketball and, ah you know, I just I have this sense of urgency with my life and I do everything that I love to do.

00:01:23.33
Bill
Good. Well, that's, yeah, it sounds like it too. And the member, remember what you said, what but what truly kind of ah drew the whole thing to you, Mike, was the, there was one word in that, in that book title that caught your, caught your attention.

00:01:34.72
Mike
Autopsy.

00:01:35.25
Bill
Yeah.

00:01:35.24
Mike
Autopsy. autopsy

00:01:38.39
Jermaine Dante' 
Yeah.

00:01:38.42
Bill
Yeah. He's like, I mean, obviously when, uh, when we had, uh, you know reviewed all your stuff and Mike's like, Hey, it's the book titles got autopsy. How can we say no

00:01:46.60
Mike
Hehehehehehe.

00:01:46.72
Bill
But, uh, but no, I mean, obviously in general, I mean, there's just the whole, the whole point of, of everything that you just talked about, we thought would be, you know, obviously interesting. And, uh, you know, we were talking a little bit after or before we got started here. I mean, I, I know you've done other podcasts and things like that. It was funny and this happened before, but usually after we've had somebody on. So you were on, uh, the sober motivation podcast with Brad, correct?

00:02:08.71
Jermaine Dante' 
That's correct, yeah.

00:02:09.40
Bill
Okay. So um I listen to that all the time. I think Brad, I don't know Brad, but had very brief interaction with him on Instagram one time, just a little back and forth. i mean, he's just seems like a nice guy listening to his podcast all the time, but I was, whatever it was probably a month or so ago, if I'm not, maybe even two months ago.

00:02:25.79
Bill
I'm flipping along and I see Jermaine. I'm like, oh, fuck, I can't listen to that because, you know, I mean, I could have, but I try not to listen to people before we have them on because I don't want i don't want anything to to to guide the conversation, I guess, is the point.

00:02:29.88
Mike
Right.

00:02:30.00
Jermaine Dante' 
Ha, ha, ha.

00:02:40.18
Bill
I will go back and listen to it because, first of all, um we are not structured like Brad.

00:02:40.34
Mike
right

00:02:44.50
Bill
That's number one. I think you'll you'll figure that out pretty damn quick. You know, but he's a good he's a good guy. And I'm i'm interested in obviously here and hearing hearing your full story on there. But but yeah, just I know you've done you've done some other podcasts.

00:02:56.42
Bill
So we're we're happy to have you on. and We do have a little bit of ah of a different way of handling stories, though. Right, Mike? I mean, when it comes to stories.

00:03:03.54
Mike
he Right. Well, basically, um basically, we hate drunk logs, right? We know how to fuck get fucked up. We know how to fuck up our lives. We know how to fuck up the lives of everyone around us.

00:03:16.92
Mike
We know how to do that. We got that down pat. What we're interested in is the solution. So, you know, definitely qualify a little bit. Definitely tell how you got where you need to be.

00:03:27.36
Mike
But we don't need to hear all the, you know every every horrible thing you did. Because we've all done it. We all know and it's cool.

00:03:36.34
Bill
hey

00:03:38.08
Mike
And that's why we're here.

00:03:40.15
Bill
Yeah, exactly.

00:03:41.24
Jermaine Dante' 
I appreciate you saying that because there are times where when I go back and listen to myself, I'm like, man, I i said that like 10 times already.

00:03:48.09
Mike
Right.

00:03:48.66
Jermaine Dante' 
right Like, like this. Let's talk about the solution, right?

00:03:51.77
Mike
Absolutely.

00:03:51.78
Jermaine Dante' 
Let's talk about let's talk about the moments afterwards.

00:03:53.24
Bill
Yeah.

00:03:54.71
Mike
Yes.

00:03:54.94
Bill
Yeah, exactly. So, go yeah, go ahead.

00:03:56.98
Jermaine Dante' 
Yeah. So, um you know, I've been sober going on 13 years now. It'll be 13 years in June.

00:04:03.22
Mike
Cool.

00:04:03.70
Jermaine Dante' 
And I'm really proud of myself. And, you know, not just with sobriety, but in general, I decided around that time, it was um June of 2013, that that um I would make some major changes in my life, not only, um you know, as far as my chemical dependency, but just my health and fitness and career wise.

00:04:22.93
Bill
Thank you.

00:04:24.63
Jermaine Dante' 
And, you know, being in the hospital on life support. And once again, for the audience members that are listening, um since we're not going to discuss in detail, you know, the the tragic times and the dark times I had, um they can always revisit that information in the book um because I do get incredibly raw, transparent and incredibly open in regards to those things that happened.

00:04:40.92
Mike
Right.

00:04:47.10
Jermaine Dante' 
And i write I wrote it in a very compelling way um so that the audience is engages but also learns.

00:04:53.29
Bill
Right.

00:04:53.40
Jermaine Dante' 
And, you know, this whole process for me has been a learning process in regards to learning how to operate in society without being intoxicated, how to hold a job um without needing to take a shot before I walked in, ah you know, ah how to how to maintain a healthy relationship ah romantically and friendship wise, as well as with my family members.

00:05:03.83
Bill
Right.

00:05:14.46
Jermaine Dante' 
And a lot of it was based on, you know, forgiving myself, but also forgiving others too as well, or asking or asking for forgiveness.

00:05:19.60
Mike
All right.

00:05:23.00
Jermaine Dante' 
And as ah as a man that, you know primarily for the good portion of my life was incredibly prideful, in order to reestablish the relationships that I had you know destroyed, i had to incredible I had to humble myself.

00:05:36.51
Mike
Yep.

00:05:36.59
Bill
Right.

00:05:36.79
Jermaine Dante' 
And that was probably one of the big one of the biggest challenges as well, was humbling myself enough to ask people that I could care less about for forgiveness.

00:05:44.85
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:05:47.35
Mike
yep

00:05:48.25
Bill
her

00:05:48.31
Jermaine Dante' 
and And, you know, once I got sober, I had this like major chip on my shoulder that I had to get rid of as well. But on the flip side, it also fueled my sobriety and put me in a great situation to fuel my new careers, which was to get into the art world, which is to ultimately work in the restaurant industry and hospitality without drinking all day long, um as well as pursue some of my my bigger passions, which was to ultimately write a book one day

00:06:08.92
Mike
Mm hmm.

00:06:15.64
Jermaine Dante' 
But more importantly, just be a good person in society, ah just operate at a high level and try to be a part of you know either a 10 percent or 1 percent that do things the hard way.

00:06:18.62
Mike
Right.

00:06:19.38
Bill
Right.

00:06:25.49
Mike
Mm

00:06:25.59
Jermaine Dante' 
um

00:06:25.75
Bill
ah right

00:06:26.65
Jermaine Dante' 
Yeah. you know And that's the one thing that I've learned is, you know number one, I saved a lot of money ah by being sober and also just reestablishing my my position in society.

00:06:32.37
Mike
hmm.

00:06:37.49
Jermaine Dante' 
That was really important to me.

00:06:39.45
Mike
Right.

00:06:39.54
Jermaine Dante' 
ah And so those are my biggest solutions. I did go into an outpatient program.

00:06:45.14
Mike
Right.

00:06:45.46
Jermaine Dante' 
after after I got out of the hospital and I was able to see a therapist for the first time in my life, which was really important for me because it was always taboo ah to talk about therapy at all in the community, the community I lived in, which is the Bay Area, California.

00:06:56.88
Bill
Right.

00:07:00.44
Mike
Ah.

00:07:01.08
Jermaine Dante' 
And, ah you know, it was a little bit of taboo to to say that I was seeing a therapist, but I tell you, that was one of the best things that ever happened to me. And even 13 years later, I see a therapist twice a week and

00:07:12.07
Mike
Nice.

00:07:12.73
Jermaine Dante' 
Yeah, like you know, it's just it's someone that's that's not connected to me in any way except as a listening ear and a professional that could provide tools for me um so I can deal with, you know, the things that I need to deal with on a daily basis being sober.

00:07:19.41
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:07:26.47
Mike
Right.

00:07:27.86
Jermaine Dante' 
And yeah.

00:07:28.02
Bill
Well, you know, the and just just real quick, and I don't mean to, well, I guess I do mean to interrupt you because I have because i have a question.

00:07:30.04
Jermaine Dante' 
the No, you're good.

00:07:32.86
Bill
I was about to say I don't mean interrupt you, but of course I do.

00:07:33.29
Mike
Hehehehe.

00:07:36.02
Bill
um the The thing that is with therapy, and we've had this come up a a number of different times, and in you're right. I mean, even back in, I don't know, 15 years ago, we've been we're coming up on 16 beers, both Mike and I are.

00:07:48.13
Bill
And at that time, it's not that and I'm trying to think, Mike, I think that we probably knew a few people that, you know, ah some people went back to church. Some people went to therapy. People were doing a lot of different things even at that time.

00:07:59.11
Mike
Right.

00:07:59.13
Bill
But I know back at the time when when we were kids, because both Mike and I are i mean, we're not completely old as fuck, but we're getting there. And, you know, there was there was this point where there was that stigma of and I think more so probably just like like anything else for men, but even for anyone, you know, why why is somebody in therapy type of thing?

00:08:05.55
Jermaine Dante' 
Ha, ha, ha, ha.

00:08:05.57
Mike
Mm hmm.

00:08:17.03
Bill
You know, what are they what's wrong with them type of thing rather than, you know, what what's right with them? What do people want to do to actually better their lives? And we've always been of the opinion. We've talked about it.

00:08:27.77
Bill
um I've gone to to therapy, just counseling and things like that that I had to go to. I had to go to drunk classes. I had to go to talk to you know a therapist to try to you know save my my relationship with my son when I got divorced, that sort of thing. you know But if i if I needed therapy or felt that I that i needed, I would have no issue whatsoever, number one, doing it and talking about it. You know, but I feel like I'm in a good place in my life where I don't.

00:08:51.25
Bill
That's not on my plate right now. But I mean, I give people all the credit in the world for doing it. Like you said, it's an it's an ear. yeah I don't want to say disinterested, but sometimes a separated individual that has, ah you know, just a a separated opportunity to listen to you and maybe give some advice. Right.

00:09:08.28
Jermaine Dante' 
Yeah, right. And ah well, and here's the thing. And thank you for sharing that. I it was kind of a forced situation on me because part of the outpatient program was you were there and you showed up at nine o'clock in the morning and then, you know, it was like working a job. You went home at five.

00:09:21.46
Bill
Oh, OK.

00:09:21.49
Mike
Sure.

00:09:21.72
Jermaine Dante' 
And so a part of that was, you know, you're going to spend an hour with this therapist we give you.

00:09:22.01
Bill
Right.

00:09:26.84
Jermaine Dante' 
I just happen to have a really cool one. And and she was incredibly attentive and ah she showed grace and empathy and in areas and of my life where others didn't.

00:09:37.53
Jermaine Dante' 
And I found that incredibly attractive, not as an attractive as in like a founder, attractive, but just attractive as in like sitting in this room and comfortable enough to be transparent and trust this individual.

00:09:49.02
Jermaine Dante' 
And so it it was kind of forced upon me, but I ended up loving it, ah to be honest with you, to be able to sit in front of someone that that didn't know me and didn't have their own judgments or opinions of me and just gave me the right tools so that when I walked out of there, um I was I could use those tools to help myself emotionally.

00:10:06.90
Jermaine Dante' 
And in some cases, um you know, when we talked about health and fitness physically and, you know, I was given the opportunity the first time my physician called me after being admitted out of the hospital to go into a program.

00:10:20.95
Jermaine Dante' 
ah My doctor suggested an inpatient program and there was something about going into an inpatient program that scared the shit out of me.

00:10:24.41
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:10:28.58
Mike
Uh-huh.

00:10:29.02
Bill
hey

00:10:29.46
Jermaine Dante' 
And and i don't know if it was being away from my family or it was just the unknown in general, or just feeling like someone was taking away my freedom.

00:10:37.28
Mike
Right.

00:10:37.32
Bill
Sure.

00:10:40.54
Bill
Oh yeah.

00:10:40.82
Jermaine Dante' 
ah There was just something that, or all of it, right?

00:10:40.88
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:10:41.66
Bill
Or all of it.

00:10:43.59
Jermaine Dante' 
There was just something about it that didn't sit well. So I remember immediately being like, let me call you back.

00:10:48.34
Bill
but

00:10:48.34
Jermaine Dante' 
And a week later, i called him back and I said, hey is there an alternative?

00:10:53.11
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:10:53.27
Jermaine Dante' 
And he said, well, there's an outpatient program through Kaiser. And I was like, well, let's visit that.

00:10:57.88
Mike
Right.

00:10:58.36
Jermaine Dante' 
And so when I went in there, of course, i i won I've played victim, right? Like, oh, woe is me and feel sorry for me.

00:11:03.42
Mike
of course.

00:11:05.35
Bill
Oh, yeah.

00:11:06.50
Jermaine Dante' 
And, you know, I'm too good to be in here amongst you people.

00:11:09.98
Bill
ah

00:11:10.25
Jermaine Dante' 
and And then it was after like two weeks when I realized that, you know, this was going to be good for me and I didn't want to go back into the way I was.

00:11:10.50
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:11:20.16
Jermaine Dante' 
I really settled in and started to become less of a victim or more of a student.

00:11:24.77
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:11:25.14
Jermaine Dante' 
And when I became more of a student of addiction in general it is when I became really interested. And that began the real healing process when I was able to understand the environment I grew up, my childhood traumas and things that were triggering to me.

00:11:39.86
Jermaine Dante' 
And when I became a student is when the healing really began.

00:11:43.31
Mike
Oh.

00:11:43.32
Jermaine Dante' 
And i ended up spending six months in this outpatient program while physically healing. and ah And it was the best thing that happened to me.

00:11:52.63
Bill
So what the with the therapist, was the were these therapists part of the or part of the recovery program or just like book learned or or how did that work?

00:12:01.24
Jermaine Dante' 
They were part of the the recovery program.

00:12:04.06
Bill
Okay, good, good.

00:12:04.60
Jermaine Dante' 
So each each individual that was in there had to spend quality time, like I think it's like an hour, hour and like maybe 90 minutes ah with a particular therapist ah because it it was a part of the healing.

00:12:16.02
Jermaine Dante' 
And and i i enjoyed it after some time.

00:12:19.22
Bill
I mean, were the were the therapists themselves in recovery, were they sober or were they Okay.

00:12:24.18
Jermaine Dante' 
Oh, that's a great question. That I don't know. ah we never we never We never talked about it.

00:12:26.74
Bill
okay

00:12:27.43
Mike
Heh.

00:12:28.73
Jermaine Dante' 
I don't even know if they were allowed to even discuss that. but

00:12:30.81
Mike
Hmm.

00:12:31.77
Jermaine Dante' 
But we never to my knowledge, she had never made any mention of being in recovery herself.

00:12:37.05
Bill
Okay.

00:12:37.24
Mike
Hmm.

00:12:37.77
Bill
It was just curiosity because it even the therapist or the counselor that I saw when I went through, by was going through the whole custody battle with my son.

00:12:48.16
Bill
At this point, I was still drinking. And I mean, my my ex knew it and she was basically trying to do what was best for her and my son by getting me away from them is really what it came down to.

00:12:57.33
Mike
Uh-huh.

00:12:58.63
Bill
You know, and, you know, so i had to go through this literally, literally this uphill battle. It's still to this, this point. I mean, I lied, lied, lied. Luckily got limited visitation to begin with and blah, blah, blah. But the, the individual that I went to see, um he was sober and, you know, obviously had that background because, and I didn't know it at the time, but I mean, clearly they put me in with somebody that, you know, that I couldn't, you can't bullshit a bullshitter, you know?

00:13:21.33
Jermaine Dante' 
Hmm.

00:13:21.47
Bill
And even though I, I mean, cause to the whole point, I mean, he knew I was fucking lying, but he couldn't prove it. You know, I guess that's what it came down to. So it was just curiosity wise. Cause I know that, uh, and Mike, Mike and I have talked about that, you know, some, some of the therapy and, uh, you, I think you had a, probably not, not the best experience, Mike, in a situation like that where individuals were, were dealing, was that in California or no?

00:13:39.45
Mike
Yeah.

00:13:42.10
Mike
Yeah, it was. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:13:42.97
Bill
Okay. Okay.

00:13:43.86
Mike
It was, it was one of the, well, not the first time. It was maybe the third time I went in some place and yeah.

00:13:46.52
Bill
but

00:13:49.94
Mike
The guy that ran it, and you know, from the psychological end of it, um he definitely wasn't sober. he definitely, you know, was ah book learning and yet did absolutely nothing for me.

00:14:01.26
Mike
and Yeah, had resentments that I've gotten over at this point, but yeah.

00:14:05.00
Jermaine Dante' 
Right.

00:14:06.09
Mike
So, yeah, you know, um I've found just just me personally. It doesn't doesn't matter. Just me. um You know, I relate more to someone who understands where I'm coming from, because, you know, um if they don't have the disease of addiction, um they can't relate to me and I can't relate to them.

00:14:25.55
Mike
And that maybe is my hang up and maybe their hang up and maybe both. But that's that's the way it works for me. I need somebody that knows what the hell I'm talking about.

00:14:32.98
Bill
Right.

00:14:35.74
Bill
Well, and it's interesting, Jermaine, to the fact that you said that you the fact that you don't know is, I think, you know, says, you know, volumes for the the individual that you're dealing with, because, um you know, maybe that individual comes across. I'm i'm kind of the same way because the I went through a couple of different programs where what I had to go through what after I got my my DUI, i had to go through drunk classes and things like that. And they were all the people that were teaching the classes, you know, had been through it, too, you know. And it just, it is, there's a, I suppose it depends. It depends on the circumstance, but I mean, obviously, and to get back to to what you have dealt with and continue to Jermaine, I mean, it sounds like you're having a really wonderful experience with that. I mean, specifically that side of it and everything else. Right.

00:15:15.45
Jermaine Dante' 
Yes, I am. ah You know, my I got to tell you, being sober is the greatest thing that ever happened to me.

00:15:21.88
Bill
Right.

00:15:22.07
Jermaine Dante' 
And and it just opened my eyes to it. You know, what it opened my eyes to all the things I wasn't doing.

00:15:28.24
Mike
Right.

00:15:28.38
Bill
um Right. right

00:15:29.14
Jermaine Dante' 
And and so, you know, when I was when I was in my heyday and I and ah I would say I had a good run of 10 years, right, of destroying myself and anybody around me.

00:15:36.86
Mike
ah

00:15:39.35
Mike
Right.

00:15:40.06
Jermaine Dante' 
And ah during those 10 years, I still had dreams and I still had these visions for my life and what it looked like. But I was so stuck in that space that ah i didn't know how to climb out of it.

00:15:50.33
Jermaine Dante' 
I just thought that they were just kind of flights of fancy.

00:15:50.47
Mike
Right.

00:15:50.52
Bill
Right.

00:15:53.59
Jermaine Dante' 
And what the therapist really talked about with me is that second chance that I had in order to fulfill all the dreams and goals that I actually had and that I wasn't going to be getting in my own way this time around.

00:16:02.61
Bill
OK.

00:16:06.49
Mike
Right.

00:16:06.71
Jermaine Dante' 
And I do remember saying to myself, um well, because my situation, my rock bottom was a little different. I was in a hospital ah with failing organs due to alcohol.

00:16:17.18
Mike
Right.

00:16:18.27
Jermaine Dante' 
So, you know, my rock bottom was like, look, man, you either stop or you die.

00:16:22.55
Mike
Right.

00:16:22.81
Jermaine Dante' 
Like i it was pretty, it was pretty cut and dry. There was no gray area. and And so, um you know, I wanted to live, you know, I had, I had two, I have two children and at the time they were young and, and I did want to accomplish those goals. And more importantly,

00:16:36.18
Jermaine Dante' 
I wanted to I wanted to do it for myself, but I always want to do it for my parents. You know, I don't want my parents to be ashamed of me. I wanted my parents to be proud and seeing their faces in the anguish when I was in the hospital just drove me towards sobriety even further this time around.

00:16:45.16
Bill
Right.

00:16:51.93
Mike
here

00:16:52.47
Jermaine Dante' 
And so whatever the therapist suggested or family members or even my pastor, I was willing to do this time because I felt like I didn't I wasn't going to get another chance.

00:17:02.33
Mike
Right.

00:17:02.62
Jermaine Dante' 
And so I really dove into that healing process and that um becoming a student of it so that I didn't make the same mistakes.

00:17:10.17
Bill
So you you mentioned, too, that mean i I didn't want to stop you at the time that you said it, but you said that you came out of there. I think you came out of the hospital with a chip on your shoulder. Is that correct?

00:17:19.31
Jermaine Dante' 
I did. did.

00:17:19.93
Bill
Okay, so what do what do you mean by that? This this i'm and I'm really interested in.

00:17:24.21
Mike
Right.

00:17:24.31
Bill
Yeah, yeah.

00:17:24.92
Jermaine Dante' 
Yeah. So so so ah you ever been in a situation where you relied on somebody and then they weren't there for you and then you said, you know what, I'm to learn how to do it myself so I don't have to rely on anybody anymore.

00:17:36.18
Bill
yeah yeah

00:17:36.59
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:17:37.41
Jermaine Dante' 
Well, there was quite a few people that I felt were helping me sabotage myself or just were really negative all the time.

00:17:46.04
Mike
right

00:17:46.42
Jermaine Dante' 
And so I use that as fuel to show them otherwise. So when I got out the hospital, what I mean by chip on my shoulder is I was like, you know, any motherfucker that said anything to me or any person that gave me the wrong look like I'm cutting not only am I cutting you out of my life, but I'm showing you how much better my life is going to be.

00:17:57.05
Bill
a

00:17:58.10
Mike
he

00:18:07.53
Jermaine Dante' 
going run circles around you.

00:18:09.11
Bill
correct

00:18:09.94
Jermaine Dante' 
And although I look back and think how incredibly unhealthy that approach is, ah it did fuel me at the time for the first several years to um start accomplishing small goals and really view compound interest as a major stepping point for my continued growth and evolution.

00:18:10.00
Mike
Mmm. Mmm.

00:18:26.61
Mike
Yeah. I mean, you know, what we, we definitely have talked about and believe in the power of s spite.

00:18:32.38
Jermaine Dante' 
yeah

00:18:32.50
Mike
Um, yeah you know, right.

00:18:34.42
Bill
hey

00:18:35.78
Mike
You know, yeah. 10% of you guys are going to make it. That means 90% you guys aren't. Oh yeah. Well, fuck you.

00:18:42.30
Jermaine Dante' 
Right.

00:18:42.46
Mike
um Right. You know, exactly. All that. I mean, it's, you know, it's yes, we can take it too far because we can take anything too far as we've proved over and over in our lives. But um but yeah, I mean, you know, there a little healthy spite. There's nothing wrong with that, man. Not a damn thing.

00:18:59.00
Bill
Right.

00:18:59.51
Jermaine Dante' 
i it

00:18:59.61
Bill
And, you know the thing with is, too, is that it doesn't sound like you went around and, you know, somebody looked at you the wrong way. And I don't think I guess, correct me if I'm wrong. It didn't sound like you punched him in the face or, you know, like started breaking windows and you know kicking down doors and things like that. I mean, having boundaries and, you know, that's that's a big buzzword these days, you know, ah fucking boundaries. And I get it. um Sometimes I think people people overuse it and people use it as a crutch and don't really understand what it means. But having healthy boundaries, and that's really what you did. You came out of there and like, nobody can fuck with me because I got to do what I got to do. And it's the people, places and things that we're told about.

00:19:37.42
Bill
I'm not going back to the same, you know, not hanging out in places we're used to drink or use, not hanging out with people we're used to drink and use. I mean, Mike and I still to this day, except if it's he and I go in some place.

00:19:47.90
Bill
And yeah again, we're we're running up on 16 years at this thing. And we will not go to a public event um with somebody else. I mean, we always want to make sure we have a a ride out of there or a way out of there.

00:20:00.42
Bill
And that's just something we were taught, you know, and not allowing people to get your way to accomplish the things that you want. And to Mike's point, you the spite thing. That's the statistics really pissed us off to begin with.

00:20:12.06
Bill
they really, really did.

00:20:12.55
Jermaine Dante' 
Yeah.

00:20:13.95
Bill
It's just like, well, fuck you. were Literally, we said, that we i remember this vividly. we were on the It was either had probably a Monday night meeting, right, Mike?

00:20:21.43
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:20:21.52
Bill
We were going over the Keating Center.

00:20:21.65
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:20:22.80
Bill
Or no, a Thursday night meeting. That was it, because I think we were going over to the house. And um we're like, you know what? Fuck these people. We're going to stay sober just to show just to prove im fucking wrong. And Mike's like, yeah, not to make our lives better, not to help our families.

00:20:33.53
Jermaine Dante' 
Yeah.

00:20:37.34
Bill
Not to be better people.

00:20:38.00
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:20:39.16
Jermaine Dante' 
a

00:20:39.26
Bill
We're just going to give a big old fuck you. You know, yeah you tell me I can't stay sober. Fuck you. I can.

00:20:44.54
Jermaine Dante' 
Yeah, and and and that, you know, well here's interesting part, though. It's it's when I so i that carried me for years.

00:20:51.23
Mike
Right.

00:20:51.70
Jermaine Dante' 
And so my main focus was like, OK, well, let me let me write out a list of these individuals and I want to do an assessment of what their life looks like.

00:21:00.42
Mike
Hmm.

00:21:00.47
Jermaine Dante' 
And I'm going run circles around their life and I can look at them and say, not only can you not say anything about me to me, but my life is ten times better than yours in a shorter amount of time. So there's no excuse.

00:21:10.78
Bill
yeah

00:21:11.65
Jermaine Dante' 
Right. That was kind of my approach.

00:21:12.18
Bill
Right.

00:21:13.05
Jermaine Dante' 
And then once I accomplished some of the greater goals I had, I looked around and I had a shift and I said, you know, Carrying this is not going to be healthy long term. So I want to love on everybody instead.

00:21:25.43
Mike
Right.

00:21:25.78
Jermaine Dante' 
You know, I want to I feel sorry for some of these people. And more importantly, I just want to turn into someone that's there for people that loves on them in spite of themselves.

00:21:34.61
Mike
Mm hmm.

00:21:35.29
Jermaine Dante' 
And that's what I've been carrying for probably the last eight or nine years is that approach with everyone.

00:21:41.21
Bill
Right. Well, and that's and that's the thing, too, that I mean, again, even even to this day, I mean, I know both Mike and i you know, we will do anything for, you know, the people that are close to us in our lives. We're talking about, you know a again, significant others or family or friends or that sort of thing. You know, unless somebody you know tries to fuck us over, that's a different story, you know, but then there's a certain point when.

00:22:02.06
Bill
We're also not afraid to to say no if it could affect us in some certain way or if we if so if it's something we need to do for our recovery. You know, there is still that, and Mike brings it up all the time, the word balance, right, Mike?

00:22:13.10
Bill
I mean, we've got to have that.

00:22:13.32
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:22:16.02
Jermaine Dante' 
Balance is incredibly important in anything, whether it's, you know, your eating habits or you know, there's anything in excess, right It doesn't have to be chemical dependency.

00:22:18.36
Mike
Right.

00:22:18.38
Bill
Right.

00:22:24.70
Bill
Right.

00:22:25.53
Jermaine Dante' 
Anything, anything in excesses could be detrimental to you.

00:22:25.56
Bill
Right.

00:22:25.61
Mike
Right.

00:22:28.81
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:22:29.05
Jermaine Dante' 
And and so, yeah, the word balance is important for me because that's how I maintain my life now is just trying to be balanced, you know, as balanced as possible. um Whether it's, you know, because you can overwork yourself or you can you can exchange what you use for addiction into something else.

00:22:37.50
Bill
right

00:22:44.01
Jermaine Dante' 
Right. Or you could tend to overwork or spend too many hours doing this or spend too many hours doing this. or you can hit the gym and, you know, stay there for five hours and think you're doing something, but you're really wrecking your body like this.

00:22:50.12
Mike
Right.

00:22:55.37
Mike
Yeah.

00:22:57.79
Mike
Yeah.

00:22:58.24
Jermaine Dante' 
You know, anything in access is not good for you.

00:23:00.38
Mike
Absolutely. Even including recovery. i mean, you know, you can spend your life in a church basement. I didn't get sober to live my life in a church basement. Um, you know, I'm very, very early on the place where were at the the director, this little old lady who, um,

00:23:10.22
Jermaine Dante' 
That's true.

00:23:16.31
Mike
had been sober forever and, and whatever. I mean, she, she'd tell us, look, you know, go back to your bunk, lay down, grab a book and not the big book, you know, to do something else, learn how to, that's why you're here.

00:23:25.99
Jermaine Dante' 
Oh.

00:23:29.03
Mike
You're here to learn how to live a life. Yes. Recovery is important. Yes. Sobriety is the most important thing in your life. But you know, that was, I mean, literally the first few weeks, she was like, start learning balance, start learning how to be a human being again.

00:23:45.02
Mike
You know, so yeah, anything in excess is not good for us.

00:23:45.66
Bill
Right.

00:23:50.36
Jermaine Dante' 
Yeah, yeah, exactly.

00:23:52.34
Bill
So with the, and Jermaine, did you do, when you were at the, whether it be the, through the IOP or anything like that, that there, was there any sort of, did you get introduced to like a structured recovery program, like a 12 step thing, or or how did that work in that, in that particular environment? What did they do for that part of it?

00:24:09.18
Jermaine Dante' 
That's a great question. So the 12 steps program was a part of it as well.

00:24:12.35
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:24:12.50
Bill
Okay.

00:24:12.82
Jermaine Dante' 
ah That was that was one of the main. focuses of that was the 12 steps. And it was interesting because there was this like sober moment, not like literally sobering, like but like this mental sobering moment when I'm sitting around And after we checked in, we all sat in a circle and we introduced ourselves. And it was really sobering to like see someone say, hey, my name is John so-and-so and I'm day one. you know I used to be sober for five years.

00:24:41.85
Bill
Right.

00:24:41.98
Jermaine Dante' 
Or you know I'm Samantha so-and-so and you know this is day 10.

00:24:42.08
Mike
right.

00:24:45.78
Jermaine Dante' 
I was sober for 10 years. And it was just really sobering for me to kind of go around and hear people's stories. And, you know, I had two grand mal seizures as I thought I could wean myself off instead of getting, medically you know, medically detoxed.

00:24:58.26
Bill
Oh boy. Okay.

00:25:00.82
Jermaine Dante' 
And I survived both of them, not realizing that they can be fatal. Right. And so hearing these stories of like this gentleman was like, yeah, my cousin died a week ago of a grandma seizure because he stopped cold turkey or my uncle was taking a shower, heading to um a recovery center and had a heart attack in the shower while he was getting ready.

00:25:19.42
Jermaine Dante' 
And you hear about these these tragic stories. And I was just grateful to be there.

00:25:23.66
Bill
Right.

00:25:23.64
Jermaine Dante' 
And the 12 steps program really helped me through it. I tell you what, though, the one that I pushed back the most on was that forgiveness part.

00:25:33.94
Bill
hey

00:25:33.98
Mike
Uh-huh.

00:25:35.64
Jermaine Dante' 
because there was a few people I was like, I'll wait until I can't wait anymore to ask them for forgiveness.

00:25:41.52
Mike
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

00:25:43.83
Bill
Yeah, that's a, that's a tough one. And two things that, first of all, when I didn't know, and my, my dad, my dad was sober and I, it was just surprising to me after all said and done that I'd never heard that before, but I didn't realize that, you know, quitting cold Turkey could, could kill you from alcohol.

00:25:58.83
Bill
And I mean, I never tried.

00:25:59.30
Jermaine Dante' 
Mm-hmm.

00:26:01.03
Bill
It was, that wasn't even in the cards. It's, it wasn't, it wasn't a problem for me, but you know After the fact, it's like, well, God damn, it's it's it's a good thing that i was i was so God damn selfish and such a fucking raging alcoholic that i didn't I didn't try to quit on my own.

00:26:14.10
Bill
I had literally, I had no idea until I think I, I don't even think I heard that, Mike, until we got to the Keating Center. I don't think they brought that up in detox or anything like that.

00:26:20.95
Mike
Right. Mm hmm.

00:26:23.14
Bill
Because I i was in detox, both, Mike, you were six, six days, seven days detox, Mike.

00:26:26.71
Mike
Seven days. Yeah. Right.

00:26:27.68
Bill
Okay. I was six, you know, so, um, you know, it was bad enough, you know, obviously getting, getting weaned off of all that stuff, but I just don't think that anyone mentioned that to me. So I didn't know, but I mean, I've, yeah, I've heard stories about that.

00:26:39.58
Bill
It's a, yeah, it's, it's medically, it's ah it's a bad idea. yeah

00:26:43.12
Mike
Yeah.

00:26:43.51
Jermaine Dante' 
it's ah It's a very bad idea, and the general public doesn't know it And so I intentionally put it in the book ah so that yeah yeah I did intentionally so that that information is out there ah for those that may be struggling, looking to just wait.

00:26:47.89
Bill
Right.

00:26:47.88
Mike
Right.

00:26:48.07
Bill
Oh, you did. Okay, cool.

00:26:51.66
Mike
Good.

00:26:57.58
Jermaine Dante' 
Because, you know, you wake up in the morning, you're like, I don't want to do this anymore.

00:27:00.44
Mike
Right.

00:27:00.92
Jermaine Dante' 
And so some people, you know, will just say I'm stopping and it's a very dangerous approach. So I wanted to make sure that information was definitely out there.

00:27:06.58
Mike
Yeah.

00:27:10.65
Bill
Well, there was plenty of stories that we heard. I mean, especially my my dad had told me this, and he said back in the day, and I guess I should have known it when he you was telling me these stories, but this one place where where my dad got sober is called Stella Maris, who was in Cleveland, or it still is in Cleveland, and right across the street, is um there's a bar, and they used to do that when guys came in before they had all the medication and stuff like that.

00:27:23.51
Mike
It is.

00:27:30.58
Bill
Am I getting that right, Mike, where you used to take them over there and Yeah, or, you know, sometimes they'll go over and, you know, they get a bottle to ease these guys off of off of the booze and shit like that.

00:27:32.30
Mike
Yeah. Mm-hmm.

00:27:40.28
Bill
You know, or, you know, 12-step, you know, 12-step pickup of some guy and the the biggest the biggest thing you do is, you you know, bring along a bottle of something, keep the guy, you know, you got to keep some alcohol in him or her, you know, during that time frame until you get them to the hospital because, yeah, they can – They can die.

00:27:52.08
Jermaine Dante' 
Mm-hmm.

00:27:55.94
Bill
They can they can have a seizure. They can have a stroke, all those sort of things, which is which is crazy, you know. But, you know, I've said this before and I think I've said it on here before. But the I mean, this whole thing in the insanity of of where we all end up at the at the end of, you know, before we get sober.

00:28:13.51
Bill
And, but the real insanity is, is realizing that, you know, you, you have to continue like with alcohol, you have to continue to kill yourself with something that's killing you, you know, and it's crazy or you'll die.

00:28:26.46
Bill
and I'm like, how does that even, how does that even fucking add up? You know, but, but it is, you gotta, you have to continue to kill yourself with something that's killing you or, or you'll, you'll be killed. I mean, like that's a, that's messed up and that's, that's not logical.

00:28:36.12
Jermaine Dante' 
Yeah.

00:28:38.41
Bill
Yeah.

00:28:38.90
Jermaine Dante' 
No, it's not logical. And I remember because the first time I had my grandma's seizure, I just stopped cold turkey, but I was unaware of what can happen.

00:28:44.75
Mike
Right.

00:28:47.43
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:28:47.45
Jermaine Dante' 
And within 24 hours, I was being admitted into the hospital by ambulance. So I got out and I was like, oh, well, after 30 days, i was like, oh I could socially drink. I'm prepared for it.

00:28:58.62
Jermaine Dante' 
And that social, right?

00:28:58.68
Mike
Sure.

00:29:00.79
Jermaine Dante' 
So that social drinking turned into once again, just kind of, you know, going at it every day.

00:29:01.02
Bill
yeah

00:29:06.36
Jermaine Dante' 
And so I was like, well, I'm tired of it this time. Let me wean myself off of it now that I know this quote unquote information.

00:29:12.22
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:29:12.70
Jermaine Dante' 
And to your point, I would have a bottle close to me so that when I started to feel the DTs, I would take a sip of something which would relax my nervous system.

00:29:22.70
Bill
Right.

00:29:23.26
Jermaine Dante' 
But it was never going to work, right?

00:29:24.95
Mike
Right.

00:29:25.46
Jermaine Dante' 
Like, so it was I was never going to be able to wean myself off the way that someone can do in the medical field, right?

00:29:32.03
Bill
Right.

00:29:32.57
Jermaine Dante' 
ah But once again, within 48 hours, i had a grand mal seizure. and And that just goes to show you that even in our best and you know efforts, and I'm sure someone has had in their lifetime, um and in my case, it just was never going to work.

00:29:45.82
Bill
Right. I had a I had ah actually a friend of mine that in, you know, she had she had been sober for a number of years and then um a handful of five, six, seven or whatever it was. And she ended up relapsing. And i mean, she was hitting it hard again. But I don't think um I don't I mean, when she started drinking again, of course, i mean, i I separated myself from that situation again. You know, one of those hard things we have to do. You know, but um she ended up being one of those ones that she did that successfully. She weaned herself back off. And what she did is she just cut everything in half for as long as it took.

00:30:17.64
Bill
You know, she was drinking two bottles of wine. She went down to, well, she probably probably went down a bottle and a half, then a bottle, then half a bottle, and then went down. All the way down in ounces and weaned herself off. And it worked. You know, she didn't go in the detox that that second time. But I I just when she told me she was doing I mean, she was close to being done with it to begin with. I'm like, you realize that that's probably not the best idea. She's like, well, I'm down to whatever it was. It was some really small amount. But I mean, had I had I even known that she was going to do it?

00:30:46.36
Bill
I would have been like, you need just go to the fucking hospital. You know, I mean, you just, you can't take that chance. You don't know. I mean, I, how, how do I know? How does she know, you know, what amount, you know, taken away? What, I don't know. was taken away half going to kill me. Who, who knows, you know?

00:31:00.22
Jermaine Dante' 
Yeah, and and and kudos to her um for accomplishing that, right? Doing it doing it on her own. that' That takes a lot of discipline and and focus. And, um you know, it's it's um it's just this weird phenomenon that that occurs where we are constantly trying to run from something yet poisoning ourselves in the process.

00:31:22.30
Bill
right

00:31:22.90
Jermaine Dante' 
it It's yes, I look back now and it just totally baffles me that my every single moment of my life I was chasing this, ah you know, not realizing that, you know, the hand was coming to the face every day.

00:31:35.71
Mike
Hehehehehe.

00:31:36.60
Bill
Yeah. And you know, the thing that is, and Mike and I talk about this a lot is that, I mean, there was, and I i think that you'd probably admit it been a too. There was, we, everyone I think had plenty of fun times.

00:31:47.41
Bill
You know, I don't think that we would have, we'd have kept doing it to a certain extent if we didn't have fun doing it, but You know, it was a hell of a lot of fun until it wasn't. But by the time it got to the point where it wasn't, it was too goddamn late, you know.

00:31:58.78
Bill
And then, um you know, did we did we get over that hump? I mean, were we now physically addicted? Were we mentally and physically addicted? Then at that point, you're like, well, I guess, OK, this is this is my life.

00:32:09.66
Bill
Right, Mike?

00:32:10.55
Mike
Right.

00:32:12.01
Bill
Yeah.

00:32:12.25
Jermaine Dante' 
Yeah. and And, you know, it wasn't, you know, a lot of times I'll talk to individuals and they'll ask me a question like, well, where did it start? Like, what was the genesis of it? And, you know, they're looking for some big bang that happened that changed it you know my trajectory.

00:32:23.77
Bill
Right.

00:32:25.08
Jermaine Dante' 
And I said, no, it was subtle.

00:32:27.07
Bill
Right.

00:32:27.10
Jermaine Dante' 
I said it was it was it was co it was like compound over a period of time where you your body becomes resistant to it. You need more and more and more. You look up and in my case, I'm like, damn, I'm so I'm drinking 32 ounces of vodka a day.

00:32:40.31
Mike
Right. Yep.

00:32:40.58
Bill
Right.

00:32:40.70
Jermaine Dante' 
Like I'm you know from 6 a.m. in the morning to 11 p.m. at night when I finally passed out. And it's not something I woke up in the morning was like, you know what? Today I want to be this person. It just kind of it just kind of organically happened.

00:32:55.17
Bill
Well, and I'm glad you brought that up, too, because we talked about that recently. And it seems to be it's a trend of sorts. And I guess i be the fact that you you just brought it up and obviously you've gone from the therapy side of things, I want to get your opinion on it.

00:33:06.82
Bill
But it seems to be a trend lately over the last, I don't know, probably handful of years that... And I've i've heard it a lot on podcasts where it's usually somewhere in the in the podcast, somebody's like, so what were you drinking at or what caused it or why did you, you know, why were you drinking so much?

00:33:23.47
Bill
And sometimes it just, well, Mike, i tell them your answer. Why were you drinking so much? Yeah.

00:33:27.62
Jermaine Dante' 
Ha, ha, ha.

00:33:27.86
Mike
i because I like to drink I like the feeling I like the effect that alcohol had on me i mean i you know ah my story is i i from the time I picked up anything um I liked it and I wanted more um you know I mean when you're you know 12 13 years old you can't be drunk all the time I suppose you can and some people have but

00:33:32.76
Bill
hey

00:33:42.49
Bill
you

00:33:51.40
Mike
you know, I couldn't, um, but you know, every chance I got, I absolutely did. And I drank to excess every time, you know, drinking two beers never appealed to me.

00:34:01.76
Mike
You know, if I couldn't at least get six or seven or 12 in me, i didn't, I didn't do it.

00:34:01.98
Bill
right

00:34:06.84
Mike
Right. If I knew i wasn't going to go get drunk, um, I didn't pick up that first one. And that's, that's, you know, I was an alcoholic from the, from the get go. If I couldn't get drunk, there was no point in drinking.

00:34:19.38
Mike
Um, you know, from, from the beginning.

00:34:19.59
Bill
Right.

00:34:22.01
Mike
So, uh, you know, yeah, there was no, there was no moment. There was no, I like to feel good all the time and, and, and, you know, lived my life that way. And anybody got in my way, got ran over.

00:34:35.50
Mike
Um, and that's my fucking story.

00:34:37.28
Jermaine Dante' 
Ha, ha, ha, ha.

00:34:39.96
Bill
Yeah, and you know I was kind of this the same way to an extent where, um and I didn't realize this until I got until i got sober, but i whatever whatever socially means as far as socially drinking, you mentioned it a little bit ago, Jermaine, whatever it means, I know I never did it. i never The only time I ever had one drink or one beer, for instance, was if I knew I was going to go have another one or if I knew another one was coming after that. I never went home.

00:35:06.90
Bill
I never sat at dinner. i never went anywhere and just like, oh, I'm going to have a beer and I'm going to whatever I was doing. It was never that, you know, and, um you know, it was just it's weird. But now the one difference between Mike and I was that he wasn't a morning drinker.

00:35:21.51
Bill
I always was not always. But when I got to the point, I was a morning drinker. He wouldn't pick up unless he was going to get drunk, because if you and correct me if I'm wrong, Mike, when you picked up, you were done.

00:35:29.90
Mike
Right.

00:35:30.71
Bill
That was it.

00:35:31.03
Mike
Yeah, right.

00:35:31.33
Bill
Yeah.

00:35:31.59
Mike
Yeah, that was it. I didn't take that drink in the morning because if I took a drink in the morning, i was going to continue to drink and I wouldn't. Yeah, i I couldn't go out and make any money so I could buy booze. ah So, you know, I toughed it out, you know, like, every well, whatever, you know, at the end there, the three, maybe four days a week.

00:35:41.56
Bill
yeah

00:35:41.60
Jermaine Dante' 
Hmm. Hmm. Hmm.

00:35:50.70
Mike
Um, you know, right. But I mean, that's just, I, that phenomenon of craving is very, very strong in me. I was never, I could never, um, you know, do maintenance drinking.

00:36:00.90
Mike
I just couldn't, you know, once I started, i didn't stop until I was fucking done. And that's just the way I lived my life for a very long time. You know, I used to, you know, on, on quote unquote days off, I would, I would say, well, I'm turning my day off into three days off.

00:36:16.09
Mike
You know, I'd wake up in the morning, start drinking, pass out, get up, start drinking again, pass out, get up, start drinking again, pass out.

00:36:16.89
Bill
but

00:36:23.17
Mike
Hey, look, I got three days in one day.

00:36:23.50
Jermaine Dante' 
Damn.

00:36:26.17
Jermaine Dante' 
Damn.

00:36:27.06
Mike
Yeah, well. Mm

00:36:27.93
Bill
Yeah. And I mean, I, I was, i was a maintenance drinker. I drank, Mike and I probably drank about the same volume, I would guess in a day if we were drinking, but I, I just, I, I was a maintenance drinker and I had, I had to, you know, that sort of thing.

00:36:33.43
Mike
hmm.

00:36:39.93
Bill
But the, the point is that, that in both of those two stories is that, you know, when, and what we've heard and neither one of us, um you know, will, will or can pinpoint something. It's like, okay, this event, my life made me drink.

00:36:52.18
Bill
It was just that we enjoyed the fuck out of it, that sort of thing. So, and that's the reason I wanted to bring it up. And if, if you had a pinpoint in your life, which I don't know if it, if you did or did not, but do you, do you know what i mean? It seems like everyone's trying to pinpoint, like, give us the reason, give us a, give us, why are you the way you are?

00:37:07.13
Bill
Give us the point that made you an alcoholic, I think is what people are looking for these days. Does that, that make sense?

00:37:12.52
Jermaine Dante' 
It makes perfect sense. and And I appreciate both of you sharing your experience. If I'm being transparent, I still don't know why.

00:37:22.03
Bill
Right.

00:37:22.36
Jermaine Dante' 
ah Other than just kind of organically falling into it and then needing to maintain it and then my body physically needing it.

00:37:33.29
Mike
Mm hmm.

00:37:33.82
Jermaine Dante' 
um What I can say is that what I've learned and who I am today is you give a human a purpose and they're a happier person.

00:37:40.43
Mike
Mm hmm. Right.

00:37:40.86
Jermaine Dante' 
and i didn't have a purpose and i didn't necessarily the direction in which I was gonna be going in my life.

00:37:40.94
Bill
Right.

00:37:42.97
Mike
Right.

00:37:48.35
Jermaine Dante' 
I had some sort of a vision for it, but I didn't know how to get there or obtain it. And so once, you know, sobriety, so when i when i got um when I got out of the hospital, so being in the hospital, I lost the ability to walk on my left side.

00:38:05.05
Jermaine Dante' 
So that parked me on the couch ah for for at least six months. And during those six months, I had a lot of, ah you know, I did a lot of self auditing.

00:38:16.73
Jermaine Dante' 
And so in that self audit, I realized that I couldn't blame my father because my father an alcoholic, so I can't say it was environmental. And i can't say you i can't personally want to lean and blame it on her you know being hereditary or genetics.

00:38:31.50
Mike
Right.

00:38:31.86
Jermaine Dante' 
I have to take full responsibility for it. And the fact that I just was a miserable fucking person. that wanted to alter his reality every day instead of coming up and fixing the actual problem, right?

00:38:41.14
Mike
is

00:38:41.40
Bill
nice Right. Right. Right.

00:38:45.36
Jermaine Dante' 
Which was pursuing a career, which was making enough money so that I wasn't struggling and sleeping in my car and, you know, paying my child support. Like that that was like, I just needed to focus on those things.

00:38:56.86
Jermaine Dante' 
And instead of focusing on those things, I ran from them.

00:38:59.70
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:39:00.63
Jermaine Dante' 
And so park being parked on the couch for six months and having a nurse come in for physical therapy a couple of times a week, I went back to art, which was what I loved to do as a child.

00:39:13.91
Jermaine Dante' 
And when I started painting, it was such a beautiful form of therapy for me. And then I started posting on Instagram and I started getting attention and that attention turned into sales and then it became a career.

00:39:25.85
Jermaine Dante' 
And now and since then, the focus has only been pursuing my career and that and that purpose ah so that I never, ever want to look back and who I used to be 13 years ago.

00:39:26.23
Bill
Right.

00:39:37.82
Jermaine Dante' 
I can't even fathom being that person.

00:39:40.02
Mike
Right.

00:39:40.61
Jermaine Dante' 
And there's times where, um you know, someone will crack open a bottle of vodka at some get together. and I'm like, oh, my God, can you like they might as well just put open up a bag of dog shit.

00:39:52.54
Jermaine Dante' 
Like just like like like that smells awful.

00:39:52.73
Mike
Right.

00:39:52.79
Bill
ha

00:39:53.05
Mike
a

00:39:56.72
Jermaine Dante' 
And it's an it's just like reminder to me of a time in my life that I'm not very proud of.

00:40:04.15
Bill
Right. Yeah. And it is. It's funny. I mean, every once in a while, and I know, Mike, you've had this circumstance too, but, uh, you you, you sit there and you're, you talk to somebody and it's even somebody that's, you know, people that are in recovery and you're telling stories and stuff like that. And, you know, some people look at you and they're like, i man, I can't, I can't even picture you that way. And I'm like, thank you.

00:40:23.61
Bill
Because that's, that's one of the biggest goddamn compliments in the world. But, but, you know, in thinking back, uh, and every once in a while, you know, I get these, um, I'll get these flashes probably just like anyone else does of, you know, something that happened, uh, you know, back at whatever time in my life while I was still drinking.

00:40:27.29
Mike
right

00:40:40.72
Bill
And, you know, or you maybe I'm watching a TV show or I'm listening to something and maybe somebody's story, whatever the case is, and you get that you get this flashback moment. And, you know, to this day, and I'm glad I hope it never goes away.

00:40:53.08
Bill
It does. I kind of feel sick to my stomach when I. when I feel that, you know, and I'm like, God, number one, I was that person. I don't want to be that person. Like you said, you know, but on top of that, it's just the fact that I can still feel uncomfortable is hugely important to me because I don't, I don't want to lose that.

00:41:09.69
Bill
ah personally, I don't want to lose sight of of who I was because I don't want to go back there exactly to your point. And then, but all these other things too, the the purpose that I have in life, life is far from whatever, whatever the word perfect means.

00:41:21.83
Bill
Yeah. kind of like whatever the word, you know, social drinking means or social means. I don't know what perfect is, you know, but I mean, I'm, I'm content.

00:41:26.03
Jermaine Dante' 
Uh-huh.

00:41:29.70
Bill
I'm happy with my life. Of course I want to grow and I got things I want to do. We all do, you know, but, but man, I mean, the, the fact that even, even when the, when the shit is hitting the fan or, or the, the you know, the shit feels bad and, you know, Mike says it all the time and we talk about it is that, It's things are going to change.

00:41:33.53
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:41:47.21
Bill
It's not going to be whatever moment you're in right now is going to change. You're not to be that happy a moment from now. You're not going to be that pissed off or sad or lonely or whatever the case is. These moments are, I mean, it's your life is fluid. Things change on on a constant basis, you know?

00:42:02.46
Jermaine Dante' 
They really do. And, you know, once again, I appreciate you sharing that. It's for me, in the beginning, I just didn't want to ever get too tired. I never wanted to get, you know, too hungry.

00:42:13.26
Jermaine Dante' 
i didn't want to never get too happy or sad, you know, those things.

00:42:14.33
Mike
fifty fifty

00:42:16.02
Jermaine Dante' 
I never wanted to get to that space.

00:42:16.15
Bill
Right.

00:42:16.15
Mike
Right?

00:42:18.20
Jermaine Dante' 
because they were triggering for me.

00:42:19.79
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:42:20.02
Jermaine Dante' 
And ah just like I'm sure many others, I had to take a different route home so I wasn't triggered by the same gas station or liquor store that I stopped at.

00:42:26.73
Bill
Right. Yeah. yeah

00:42:28.11
Mike
Right?

00:42:28.76
Jermaine Dante' 
ah But you know, the one thing that I took offense was, and it's it's really no blame to them, but like when I would come finally over to family members' houses, they would like hide everything.

00:42:39.32
Bill
right yeah

00:42:40.50
Jermaine Dante' 
And at first that really bothered me ah because I just felt like this level of rejection or this level of distrust.

00:42:48.31
Bill
Mm-hmm.

00:42:48.73
Jermaine Dante' 
And I had to come to grips and understanding that is warranted.

00:42:53.56
Mike
Yeah, yeah.

00:42:53.59
Jermaine Dante' 
Like I like like like like you earned that brother, like you got you got to you got to sit in that.

00:42:54.65
Mike
Yeah, you earned that. Absolutely. Yup. Uh-huh. Mm-hmm.

00:43:01.34
Mike
yo aha

00:43:04.71
Jermaine Dante' 
Uh, and it felt really good. I remember, uh, one of my best friends and mothers, uh, she was really hard on me.

00:43:11.06
Mike
h

00:43:11.38
Jermaine Dante' 
Uh, and I, and I, and I want to say it came from a place of love. And, uh, I remember, i think up until like four years ago, when I would go over their house, she would just look at me with like this level of distress that really made me uncomfortable.

00:43:23.88
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:43:25.71
Jermaine Dante' 
And I'm thinking, man it's been like nine years. Like if I haven't, if I haven't proved this to you yet, I don't think I ever will.

00:43:28.86
Mike
Right.

00:43:28.95
Bill
hey

00:43:32.00
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:43:32.02
Bill
Right. Hmm.

00:43:33.98
Jermaine Dante' 
And I remember in my father's service, i got up and I spoke and afterwards she had walked up to me and whispered in my ear. She said, I know you're going to be OK now.

00:43:42.41
Mike
Yeah.

00:43:42.58
Jermaine Dante' 
She was like, there was something that i there was someone I saw on stage and referring to me that I had this overwhelming feeling that you're going to be OK. And she was finally able to let go of that trust that lack of trust.

00:43:54.63
Jermaine Dante' 
And we had breakfast like two days later and she goes, I feel better now that I can trust you and love you the way that I want to.

00:43:55.16
Mike
right.

00:44:00.76
Jermaine Dante' 
but i just felt that, I found that so weird. Like, um but now I understand, right?

00:44:03.32
Mike
Yeah.

00:44:06.07
Mike
Sure.

00:44:06.47
Jermaine Dante' 
Now I fully understand because I still have family members that are, you know, hitting it hard. And I don't always agree with the approach my family takes.

00:44:17.72
Mike
Right.

00:44:18.36
Jermaine Dante' 
i'm I'm so much more, i believe, empathetic. ah Because I've been through it.

00:44:23.02
Mike
Right.

00:44:23.58
Jermaine Dante' 
ah But I get it, though, at the same time.

00:44:26.42
Mike
Yeah.

00:44:27.16
Jermaine Dante' 
You know, and and and some of the things and and them not inviting him over or not trusting him or putting things away like I totally get it now.

00:44:34.58
Mike
Yeah, right.

00:44:35.03
Bill
Right.

00:44:35.96
Mike
Yeah.

00:44:36.89
Bill
Well, and you know, the, the, yeah, absolutely.

00:44:37.34
Mike
We understand.

00:44:39.52
Bill
And the, know, the thing of it is that it was just kind of, like it wasn't really hitting in my head that, and one of the things I didn't bring up in the beginning was Jermaine's only got an hour to be with us. So we're getting, that we're getting probably down in the last, what, 15, 20 minutes, depending on, on where he, you know, what time you want to cut off.

00:44:50.12
Mike
Yep.

00:44:53.20
Bill
So um I know you went, we want to talk about your, well, let's do this. You talk about whatever you want in the next 15, 20 minutes, the book, the art, what you're doing, what you want people to know.

00:45:05.50
Bill
This is your platform now. And Mike and I will quit telling stories for a little bit. How's that?

00:45:10.20
Jermaine Dante' 
no No, I appreciate you, too. I love the organic nature of this conversation.

00:45:13.55
Mike
Right.

00:45:14.36
Jermaine Dante' 
We had talked about it before we started, and and i and I love it.

00:45:16.83
Bill
Right.

00:45:17.77
Jermaine Dante' 
And I appreciate you providing a platform for me. I i appreciate what you're doing with your platform. ah you're You're doing amazing work.

00:45:23.38
Mike
Thank you.

00:45:23.45
Bill
Well, thank you. Thank you.

00:45:26.30
Jermaine Dante' 
and And I've listened to many of these prior to coming on today. And I love the guests you've had. I love the stories. You guys are paving the way of healing a lot of people. um You know, because there's a side to this, right?

00:45:39.82
Jermaine Dante' 
we but We all know this, that there's the addiction side, but there's a loved ones that are that are watching it unfold.

00:45:43.81
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:45:47.42
Bill
Oh, yeah.

00:45:47.49
Mike
Right.

00:45:47.58
Jermaine Dante' 
And the ones that are sticking in our corners when we can't even stick it on for ourselves.

00:45:52.86
Bill
Right.

00:45:52.87
Mike
Right.

00:45:53.46
Jermaine Dante' 
And so you're not only providing a platform for those that are either recovering knee deep in it, but the family members that are involved as well.

00:46:01.39
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:46:01.66
Jermaine Dante' 
And that's what I truly appreciate for what you two are doing.

00:46:04.92
Bill
Right.

00:46:05.02
Jermaine Dante' 
So I just wanted to share.

00:46:05.21
Mike
Cool.

00:46:05.75
Bill
Well, thank you.

00:46:06.26
Jermaine Dante' 
i wanted to share that deeply from from my heart.

00:46:08.87
Mike
Nice.

00:46:08.92
Jermaine Dante' 
um

00:46:09.37
Bill
Yeah, thank you.

00:46:09.85
Jermaine Dante' 
You know,

00:46:10.05
Bill
We appreciate it.

00:46:11.22
Jermaine Dante' 
it's It's been, you know, this 13 years has been an incredible journey. And, you know, I've been given so many beautiful blessings and opportunities to pour into chemical dependency centers, churches, giving multiple speeches, just kind of sharing my life and and what I've been through, as well as the solution and recovery side of things.

00:46:32.73
Jermaine Dante' 
And you know writing this book, the intention wasn't necessarily for self-serving. This was to help others and hopefully help others at a very, very massive level.

00:46:44.89
Jermaine Dante' 
And so the the name Autopsy of My Former Self, um it wasn't it wasn't actually the original title. The original title was like brushstrokes of redemption or something.

00:46:56.41
Mike
yeah.

00:46:56.72
Bill
Okay.

00:46:56.70
Jermaine Dante' 
And I just didn't think it was... hitting as hard as I wanted it to be. It almost came across as like too nonchalant or soft. And I just remember laying in bed, waking up one day and um i felt like my body was stiff. I don't I had like a previous workout or something.

00:47:13.66
Jermaine Dante' 
And I just remember being like, autopsy of my former self. I'm like, autopsy of my, hell yeah, autopsy of my former self.

00:47:20.43
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:47:22.23
Bill
okay

00:47:23.29
Jermaine Dante' 
And I remember you know reaching out to the publisher and telling them what what name change I wanted. And she was like, oh, man, that's it. She was like, let's let's get this thing published. And you know the genesis of it was really writing journals um as a ah healing part and and grieving my father. ah you know my father my father was an alcoholic, and I saw things at a young age that no young person should see.

00:47:46.97
Jermaine Dante' 
But at the same time, there was incredible love And my father was a great provider and we got a great relationship. But to watch him deteriorate um and do it to himself, ah but still remain like a beautiful person at the same time, it was really hard on me when he left us.

00:48:01.85
Mike
Yeah.

00:48:04.06
Jermaine Dante' 
And so I started to open up journals and kind of writing because the the other option, right, was and this is what my family was afraid of. My family is afraid losing when my father. i would go back to drinking.

00:48:16.28
Jermaine Dante' 
And I remember sitting my mother down and saying, look, I've i've come way too far. And, you know, not even my father's death can get me to drink again. Like there's nothing that can get me to drink again.

00:48:28.82
Jermaine Dante' 
And, um you know, i remember Kobe Bryant listening to an interview and he said, if you really want to get something accomplished, write a contract with yourself. He said, you may be able to break a contract with someone else, but breaking a contract with yourself is devastating.

00:48:40.48
Mike
Right. Right. right

00:48:42.97
Bill
if

00:48:43.58
Jermaine Dante' 
And I remember making a contract with myself that I would never drink again. And I've up until this point, you know, fulfilled that.

00:48:51.70
Mike
right

00:48:52.02
Jermaine Dante' 
And so as I'm journaling, I looked up and there was six, seven, eight journals, 10 journals. And i let my writing kind of go organically. I woke up at five o'clock every morning for two years and really got to it. And all of a sudden I looked up and I said, man, why don't you just, no, I'll tell you, I read a book called the top five regrets of the dying by an author. Her name is Bronnie Ware.

00:49:13.81
Mike
Right.

00:49:14.17
Jermaine Dante' 
And I had finished all my journal writing and I finished this book and I reached out to her on Instagram and I had no idea she was going to respond. She has sold like 10 million copies worldwide.

00:49:24.45
Mike
Right.

00:49:24.72
Bill
Right.

00:49:24.76
Jermaine Dante' 
So I was like, she's not going to respond to me, but she did.

00:49:26.65
Bill
hey

00:49:28.05
Jermaine Dante' 
And she was like, i love your artwork. It's amazing. She was like, thank you for the compliment on our book.

00:49:30.52
Mike
h

00:49:32.05
Jermaine Dante' 
And I'm like, cool. So all of a sudden a week later and I had to time it right. So I didn't seem too anxious.

00:49:38.10
Mike
a

00:49:38.33
Bill
ah

00:49:39.19
Jermaine Dante' 
I was like, Ronnie, I was like, hey, ah I think I want to write a book. And she goes, this is a tall ask. She was like, well, let me get back to you.

00:49:49.45
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:49:49.82
Jermaine Dante' 
So she got back to me and gave me full structures on how to do it. And then she came back to me and gave me how to shop my manuscript, how to build my manuscript, how to do all these things. And I ended up building this this manuscript and I started shopping it and it was picked up by a publisher.

00:50:04.31
Jermaine Dante' 
And now you can find it on every platform in the world.

00:50:04.57
Bill
Nice. Right.

00:50:09.11
Jermaine Dante' 
And I'm really proud of it. I'm really excited about it. I've gotten some overwhelming responses to it. People even, you know, flying from city to city saying, hey, man, people thought I was weird. I was crying on the plane reading it or family members reaching out and saying, man, I never knew. Like, I never knew you were going through those things.

00:50:26.87
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:50:28.38
Jermaine Dante' 
And it's it's one thing for me to know or it's one thing to jump on ah a podcast and and and openly be able able to discuss these things. But when it's in like a physical form,

00:50:37.00
Mike
Right.

00:50:37.34
Jermaine Dante' 
And you know that the world could potentially be opening up or reading it. When I first got the email that I was released, it was overwhelming feeling of nervousness and anxiousness that I had because I was like, oh, shit, these people about to know everything about me.

00:50:46.63
Mike
Hmm.

00:50:50.71
Mike
Hmm.

00:50:52.22
Jermaine Dante' 
Oh, my God. But then right after that, I was like, you know what? But it's going to heal a lot, too.

00:50:57.75
Mike
Right.

00:50:58.01
Jermaine Dante' 
Right.

00:50:58.09
Bill
Yeah,

00:50:58.29
Jermaine Dante' 
It's going to heal a lot of people. And that was the main focus of it was making sure that it touched a bunch of people. I'll tell you another reason why I did it, too. um I have I'm covered in tattoos and i are you?

00:51:09.62
Mike
me too. Yeah.

00:51:10.52
Bill
yeah Mike is, yeah?

00:51:12.75
Jermaine Dante' 
That's wonderful. And so my tattoo artist, Miles, is this young 38, 39 year old man. ah We sat for hours because, you know, sometimes you get a six hour session, seven hour sessions.

00:51:22.84
Mike
Right. Right.

00:51:24.14
Jermaine Dante' 
We're having these long conversations and I'm sharing about me and my journey. And and all of a sudden, years later, I get this and this is a couple years ago. I get this phone call from the tattoo artist owner and he said, hey, Miles in the hospital, he's not doing too good.

00:51:38.46
Jermaine Dante' 
So I rushed to the hospital and i look at Miles and I talked to the doctor and he's like, oh, Miles liver is failing.

00:51:39.86
Mike
Right.

00:51:44.35
Jermaine Dante' 
He's been drinking, like he's, he's gonna die.

00:51:48.15
Mike
Yeah.

00:51:48.22
Jermaine Dante' 
And I was like, what?

00:51:48.48
Bill
Right.

00:51:49.94
Jermaine Dante' 
I was like, how did I not know? Like we sat for hours. How did I not have any idea he was suffering in silence? And unfortunately, Miles in the passing a week later, but I said to myself, there's not another moment that's going to go by where I'm not trying to find out about someone to help them heal.

00:52:09.02
Jermaine Dante' 
And so that was part of the motivation for the book as well as like this extended arm to those that don't even know I exist or I know that exists that I can heal just like I felt like I failed Miles.

00:52:22.61
Bill
Right.

00:52:22.78
Jermaine Dante' 
and And I remember um there was this gentleman at the gym and he had just got a tattoo from Miles. And i guess, i don't know, he had another session.

00:52:35.29
Jermaine Dante' 
And so Miles passes so he doesn't get the second session and we're in the gym and he's kind of like recklessly saying, I just don't understand. I don't get it. ah He was drinking like, you know, mouthwash.

00:52:42.97
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:52:46.71
Jermaine Dante' 
I just don't understand it. And I got pissed.

00:52:49.61
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:52:49.88
Jermaine Dante' 
And I remember looking at him and i was and I remember I forgot exactly what I said to him, but I said something very angrily and I walked out and I didn't talk to him for like a year. After a year, it came to me and I realized that there was a moment of education, right?

00:53:02.38
Jermaine Dante' 
There was a moment where I had an opportunity to educate him and I failed.

00:53:02.59
Mike
Right. Mm-hmm.

00:53:06.07
Mike
right

00:53:06.74
Jermaine Dante' 
So i remember apologizing him and getting them to understand why I reacted the way I reacted. But that was another part of the book too was this is an opportunity to educate folks as well.

00:53:16.75
Mike
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

00:53:17.46
Jermaine Dante' 
And so when you read the book, you'll notice there are some psychological parts of it, educational parts.

00:53:17.51
Bill
Right.

00:53:24.26
Jermaine Dante' 
There's you know medical portions of it where someone can read exactly what happens to the body when you drink. um There's also a chapter called The Many Faces of Addiction, where I talk about being a celebrity is addiction or porn is an addiction or, you know, and and I mentioned this woman.

00:53:42.68
Jermaine Dante' 
She pulls up and one morning I'm going to get some Gatorade. And it's 630 in the morning and she pulls up in the beautiful Mercedes and she's got this beautiful suit on. i mean, she looks like a million dollars and she's in front of me. and She gets two shots of vodka or bourbon.

00:53:59.61
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:54:01.91
Jermaine Dante' 
Hello. Yeah,

00:54:02.74
Mike
Yeah.

00:54:02.79
Bill
Yep. Can you hear us?

00:54:06.00
Jermaine Dante' 
I can.

00:54:06.65
Mike
Okay.

00:54:06.68
Bill
Oh, okay.

00:54:07.38
Jermaine Dante' 
Oh, I don't know what happened.

00:54:07.49
Bill
Right.

00:54:09.50
Mike
I don't know. We're here.

00:54:10.61
Jermaine Dante' 
Uh, yeah. So then long story short, she ends, she ends up, um, open up her coffee cups.

00:54:12.91
Mike
Yeah.

00:54:15.71
Jermaine Dante' 
She pours them in there and she drives off.

00:54:17.13
Mike
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

00:54:18.65
Jermaine Dante' 
And I remember saying to myself, she's going to go, you know, some board meeting or she's going to run a team and no one knows that she just killed like a half a pint of something before she went to work.

00:54:29.27
Mike
Right.

00:54:29.59
Jermaine Dante' 
And so I, I put these stories in my book so that people fully understand, um how complex addiction can be.

00:54:29.62
Bill
right

00:54:37.48
Bill
Right.

00:54:38.46
Jermaine Dante' 
Yeah. um And in regards to the art, ah you know, like I've been an artist for well over a decade and I've had the blessing to work with major companies.

00:54:41.27
Mike
Yes.

00:54:48.25
Jermaine Dante' 
So I've able to transform my life completely ah from selling my first painting for seventy five dollars back in 2013 to, um you know, working with corporations like Kaiser Permanente, North Bay Hospital.

00:55:01.49
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:55:02.84
Jermaine Dante' 
Moet Hennessy, off The Four Seasons, and then, you know, iconic celebrities like Robert De Niro, the Stephen Curry and everybody in between.

00:55:12.31
Bill
Nice.

00:55:13.14
Jermaine Dante' 
And so I just feel really blessed that I'm able to continue to to fully focus on my purpose while maintaining sobriety and being of service to others that are suffering from chemical dependency as well.

00:55:26.68
Bill
Nice. And then the...

00:55:27.58
Mike
Very cool. Yeah, and I did check out some of your art, and I i like it a lot.

00:55:28.93
Bill
Oh, I'm sorry.

00:55:31.42
Mike
It's really cool.

00:55:32.75
Bill
Okay.

00:55:33.34
Jermaine Dante' 
ah Thank you. Thank you. I appreciate it.

00:55:35.42
Mike
Yeah.

00:55:36.31
Jermaine Dante' 
the My style has evolved over over the past decade.

00:55:39.17
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:55:39.74
Jermaine Dante' 
And of course, it it really depends on the project as well. you know um

00:55:43.10
Mike
Right.

00:55:44.43
Jermaine Dante' 
I find that a lot of private collectors like portraits of iconic people that that they're attracted to, ah but not so much with corporate.

00:55:50.11
Mike
Sure.

00:55:52.57
Mike
Yeah, right.

00:55:52.90
Jermaine Dante' 
So I have to do more of the abstract work with corporate.

00:55:55.61
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:55:56.29
Bill
Right.

00:55:57.18
Jermaine Dante' 
So it's been fun.

00:55:57.63
Bill
And, and with the, when the email or I'm sorry, the, the post that I've been doing on Instagram with your, your Instagram handle, that's the best place out there.

00:55:57.98
Jermaine Dante' 
It's been a great journey.

00:56:08.06
Bill
I'll put that in the, that's going to be in our description, obviously, as people are listening to this, but is that the, the best place? I mean, does that have a link to anything and everything that's you is the Instagram.

00:56:18.39
Jermaine Dante' 
Yes, yes. So Jermaine Jermaine Dante underscore art ah is where everyone can find me.

00:56:19.74
Bill
Okay.

00:56:24.70
Jermaine Dante' 
Even there's there's a link to my art.

00:56:24.79
Bill
Okay. Perfect.

00:56:27.06
Jermaine Dante' 
There's actually physical you know art on there as well as the link to purchase my book if anyone is interested.

00:56:31.93
Mike
Cool.

00:56:33.05
Bill
Well, and I love that, you know, because again, I think it makes it to, we we've had a couple of people, right, Mike, when when you do your, when Mike does his intro about how we handle stories, and you can hear in some people's voices, like i they don't know what to do, because they're like, what am I going to talk about?

00:56:46.85
Bill
And we end up talking to them for an hour, and an hour and a half, and you know, they they didn't tell us barely anything, but I love when you said in the beginning, Jermaine, you're like, if anyone really wants to know my story, they can buy the book.

00:56:57.83
Bill
Yeah.

00:56:58.06
Mike
Hey.

00:56:58.33
Jermaine Dante' 
mean

00:56:59.38
Bill
and i'm like And I'm like, yeah, yeah just just say thank you and go on with it.

00:56:59.99
Jermaine Dante' 
ah

00:57:03.14
Bill
Yeah, because that that's exactly what it should be. You know, we've had people that we've been on different podcasts, only a few here and there, but people like tell us your whole background. We're like, you know what, go listen to episode one, go listen to episode three.

00:57:14.35
Bill
um Let's talk about something else. Neither Mike or I want to go on a podcast and tell our stories. And when we've been on the, you we'll, we'll tell bits and pieces, but I usually let Mike go first. Cause I'm like, depending on how, how detailed or, or whatever, then I kind of follow the lead because again, neither one of us said, it's kind of like, okay, we, we talk into these microphones to, to give the stories you wrote, you took the time to write a damn book.

00:57:26.68
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:57:35.16
Bill
So somebody really wants to hear all about you and everything, you know, you, you've been through that's, that's what the book's for. Right.

00:57:41.94
Jermaine Dante' 
Yeah. And it's like, you know, it's like ah a book versus a movie. Right.

00:57:46.20
Bill
Right.

00:57:46.24
Jermaine Dante' 
So when you watch a film, it's condensed within 90 minutes to two hours. It's not going to tell the whole story. It'll be a condensed version of it. So I can jump on a podcast and and share everything about me and and and from childhood until now.

00:57:59.04
Jermaine Dante' 
But for me, if you want like a really detailed, um vivid portion of it, the book is going to be your best bet to do it as opposed to anything that I could articulate.

00:58:07.27
Mike
Yeah.

00:58:11.53
Bill
That's a, you know, that's a great way to put it. I've never thought about that before that, especially because we've had a lot of people on, we've had some, for some reason, it be people that write books tend to find us, which has been cool. um You know, but I never thought about that before that. I mean, that's, I'm glad that we end up talking about other things than just that, you know, from childhood till now, but what a great point. i mean, because again, you, you, you put your, you know, your heart and soul into, into those papers and, you know, let people, yeah, let people dive into that and, you know, get, get swallowed up in, in the whole story in a book. so So what a,

00:58:41.65
Bill
That's a great point. That's a really great point.

00:58:43.32
Jermaine Dante' 
Yeah, thank you. And I've just been on this tear of um really creating things that are like this physical testament that I existed on the planet. You know I mean? Whether it's the art that i outlived me. Like I remember somebody saying, um you know, every man should write a book, plant a tree and have a son because they'll, you know, in theory, outlive you.

00:59:04.63
Mike
Sure.

00:59:04.82
Bill
Right. Right. Right.

00:59:06.23
Jermaine Dante' 
And so I planted a tree and I have a son and I wrote a book.

00:59:06.46
Bill
Yeah.

00:59:08.83
Jermaine Dante' 
And so so, and so everything that I, I tend to touch or at least use as part of my purpose, um, is something that's going to outlive me, but it also is to provide a service to someone.

00:59:09.21
Mike
a

00:59:21.30
Mike
listen

00:59:21.66
Jermaine Dante' 
Um, you know, I think a lot of times, you know, when we talk about being of service to someone, um, we kind of run away from it. Uh, but I think that we're all here, um to be of service one, one,

00:59:34.94
Jermaine Dante' 
one time or another, or one piece or another.

00:59:37.21
Mike
Yeah, absolutely.

00:59:37.27
Bill
Right. Absolutely.

00:59:38.58
Mike
Yeah. Yeah. Help the next guy on this one way trip.

00:59:41.72
Bill
Right. Exactly. So what else, Jermaine, in wrapping up here? what What else did either either we miss or do you want did you want to say before we wrap up? Because, you know, obviously, we know you need to get underway.

00:59:52.02
Jermaine Dante' 
Yeah, thank you. i would just, you know, to everyone listening that that is struggling, um you know, I'm here for you. You guys are here for them. ah There are a lot of outlets.

01:00:04.57
Jermaine Dante' 
um If you're seeking help and you need help, there are a lot of outlets um ah to really, really get to pull yourself out of it. And and please use me as inspiration. Use me as an example and and the host as well, um that you can go to a place where you just feel like you've hit rock bottom and within less than 10 years fulfill a life that you've always dreamed of.

01:00:27.58
Jermaine Dante' 
ah So, you know, never give up on yourself.

01:00:27.90
Bill
Right.

01:00:29.98
Jermaine Dante' 
Always be looking to the light at the end of the tunnel because it does actually exist. And there's people that have actually accomplished it. So, you know, my i continue to love on everybody. um And if anybody needs anything, you guys know where to find me.

01:00:42.36
Bill
Awesome. Well, we we appreciate it.

01:00:43.29
Mike
Nice.

01:00:44.34
Bill
And ah Mike is going to lead us out of here, but we'll say both of us, obviously, we'll say thank you. And, you know, definitely everyone visit his Instagram page, check out his book, buy his book as you want to hear his want to read his full story and check out some of his art.

01:00:57.66
Bill
So, Mike, you can lead us out.

01:00:59.86
Mike
All right. Well, thank you, Jermaine. We really appreciated it. We're going to take a little break here, listen to some commercials, and Bill and I will be right back, and we'll see you here in a minute.

00:01.78
Bill
All right, everyone, welcome back. And, you know, I think we could we could probably almost kill 30 minutes just talking about how cool that conversation was.

00:09.34
Mike
Absolutely.

00:11.54
Bill
You know what? And here's the thing. And I mean, we've had, it's been about two, three people, I think, if I'm thinking or remembering correctly that, you know, obviously you've had some sort of technical issue or, you know, whatever happened and, you know, they had to come back.

00:24.41
Mike
Right?

00:25.40
Bill
But I mean, he was he's so goddamn gracious, you know, that's number one. i mean, it's just so thankful. And I was like, god Jesus, I would just it was it was nice. I mean, he was it was a cool conversation.

00:35.64
Mike
yeah

00:37.08
Bill
But um I don't know, you run across those those people in life that are just really good people.

00:37.62
Mike
isn't it

00:41.36
Bill
And maybe it's just that I'm not all the time that that I just noticed.

00:46.74
Mike
Right back at you.

00:47.40
Bill
I'm like, Yeah, I'm like, goddamn, that's how the nice guy he is, you know?

00:51.51
Mike
o

00:51.63
Bill
What the fuck is he doing hanging around with us? But no, seriously, I'm i'm glad that i'm glad that he came on.

00:54.55
Mike
Right.

00:57.29
Bill
And seriously, i was we were getting to like that 40-minute time period. I'm like, i'm like oh in my head, I'm like, oh, fuck, that's right. He's only... He's only on for an hour, and I'm like, i God, shit, we were just having such a good conversation.

01:09.45
Bill
I wanted to make sure to to get his his time to do that, so i'm I'm glad he had the time.

01:09.50
Mike
I know.

01:13.53
Bill
But, yeah, seriously, um the the Instagram link, take a look at that, or I'm i'm guessing I haven't even – well, I know I did to begin with. Amazon, and he said anywhere that books are sold, but I know Amazon's always got it.

01:22.81
Mike
Right.

01:24.17
Bill
But, um yeah, my gosh, by all means, if ah yeah if you want to hear his story, you know you know bye buy the damn book.

01:28.34
Mike
Yeah. Then you want to see some cool art, man.

01:30.22
Bill
I mean, come on.

01:31.56
Mike
Check out his page on Instagram because I did and he's got a lot of cool stuff on there.

01:35.90
Bill
Yeah, and I know that to I think to begin with when when we first talked to him, because when do we originally talked to him, that's been, I mean, it's been three weeks since we were going to have him on the last time, and I think it was at least a month prior.

01:46.20
Mike
Right.

01:48.34
Bill
It's been a couple of months, I think, since I first looked at it, so I'm going to have to go back and and look at it again.

01:49.56
Mike
Yeah. Yeah. Right.

01:52.62
Bill
But, but yeah, I mean, what ah again, we we take these, we take these i want to say gambles, but I'm to air quotes, gambles with people because we don't fucking know.

01:59.82
Mike
Uh-huh. Right.

02:01.29
Bill
And I mean, we've we've gotten, i mean, we're batting like 100% on guests. we've had We've had zero bad guests. I mean, really, none, you know?

02:07.61
Mike
Yeah. I know.

02:09.30
Bill
the

02:09.45
Mike
Uh-huh.

02:10.10
Bill
The ones that would have sucked, and was funny, I was doing a scrolling through something the other day, it popped up this fucking little dicky I ran across his episode that he did with, you know, again, somebody we know, another podcast, and I just saw his face, and I'm like, fuck you, little dicky.

02:12.73
Mike
Mm-hmm.

02:16.06
Mike
ah

02:19.22
Mike
aha the

02:23.54
Bill
im just I'm just so glad so glad that we never had him on, so...

02:27.32
Mike
Yep.

02:28.25
Bill
um All right. So um anything anything out of the ordinary i mean that you that you get on your mind? and I've got my sheets printed off. I always do anyhow, but I got a couple of things.

02:35.38
Mike
Right.

02:35.89
Bill
We got plenty of, I don't think we got to get in real super in-depth conversations, but I got a couple of fun things I want to talk about too.

02:41.59
Mike
Right.

02:41.67
Bill
But anything right off the top of your head or are you you in pretty good shape?

02:44.06
Mike
I mean, well, you know, Catherine O'Hara passed today. That sucks ass. ah

02:48.28
Bill
Oh my God, did she?

02:49.72
Mike
Oh, you didn't know.

02:51.32
Bill
No.

02:52.06
Mike
Yeah. Yeah. Well, shit. Yeah.

02:54.34
Bill
Oh, fuck.

02:55.22
Mike
Anyway. Yeah. She, uh, it was announced, uh, sometime this afternoon. yeah I mean, I posted about it on Facebook a couple of times, but yeah.

03:00.57
Bill
Oh, fuck me.

03:03.31
Mike
um Yeah, she was just you know wonderful you know from SCTV to you know whether I posted an SCTV clip um because that's you know where I discovered her.

03:14.91
Mike
and She's done so many things, Schitt's Creek and Beetlejuice and Home Alone and you know in the Christopher Guest movies.

03:15.80
Bill
Right.

03:22.75
Mike
and Yeah, she' just she was wonderful. and Yeah, she passed away today.

03:28.47
Bill
Well, fuck. And I, yeah, as soon as you said that, I would just looked it up cause I couldn't remember. Yeah, she was. And I say only because I mean, it's not too far off from our ages, you know, she's 71 years old, but God damn it.

03:35.48
Mike
Yeah, i have

03:39.57
Bill
No. So, so here's the thing. And I've said it before. I mean, I go on Facebook in the morning, I go on Facebook while I'm eating lunch and then I go on Facebook at night, you know, like before I go to bed.

03:45.02
Mike
Yeah.

03:47.46
Mike
Yeah, right.

03:47.73
Bill
So, um, and I popped on Instagram, um, I don't know before I, I think either before I went to grab my pizza or whatever. So it's been a few hours. So no, I hadn't, I completely, I, I'd been unsocial, you know, so I had a no goddamn idea, but a motherfucker, man.

03:56.05
Mike
Mm-hmm.

03:59.77
Mike
Right. Yeah, well, two this afternoon, alan Cox started his show with it, so I was like, oh, god damn it.

04:03.12
Bill
Yeah. She,

04:07.74
Mike
out

04:08.54
Bill
Yeah, that's that's the one. And I mean, everything that they the John Candy documentary that I was talking about.

04:13.59
Mike
Mm-hmm. Right.

04:15.07
Bill
um I mean, obviously a lot about her in there because, you know, I mean, she was not only the Home Alone thing, which like you said, S.C.

04:18.53
Mike
Yeah.

04:20.43
Bill
TV and all that stuff.

04:20.89
Mike
SCTV, yeah.

04:21.39
Bill
And yeah, Schitt's Creek, like you said, I mean, all those things.

04:21.51
Mike
Yeah.

04:24.71
Bill
there I don't think there's ever been anything. I can't ever remember anything that I've seen her in that that I was like, yeah, that was a fucking bummer one, you know, or ah or a bomb or you know what i mean?

04:32.22
Mike
Right.

04:34.63
Bill
I don't think she's ever done anything that I thought was bad, you know.

04:34.87
Mike
Yeah.

04:37.46
Mike
Right. Yeah, exactly. She she didn't.

04:41.21
Bill
Right. Right. So, yeah, I guess. ah Well, oh God damn it. Well, God damn it. Yeah. We're just coming, you know, obviously just coming out of the, you know, all the, you know, me watching the Home Alone stuff.

04:51.88
Bill
So I got to see her and, you know, through that stuff again. And I was, say I don't know, a couple of months ago, i was going to rewatch Schitt's Creek again. And i don't know, I guess I probably definitely will because she's she's fucking wonderful.

04:59.99
Mike
Yes.

05:02.08
Bill
So did you did you see that whole series?

05:04.44
Mike
ah Not all of it, but I mean, I saw quite a bit of it. i Yeah, probably 25 episodes of it or something. So, yeah. Yeah.

05:14.01
Bill
Yeah, and I don't even remember, I don't know how many seasons it went, but I mean, it's it's on, I think it's still on Netflix.

05:14.13
Mike
Yeah.

05:19.17
Bill
But again, I mean, I know Chris has Netflix, I'm sure, but um but anyhow, it's, yeah, I couldn't remember where it's, i don't remember if it started off someplace other than, or if it was a Netflix thing to begin with, but.

05:27.80
Mike
Yeah. No, no, it started. Yeah. It was a Canadian TV show.

05:33.12
Bill
Schitt's Creek was?

05:33.91
Mike
Yeah.

05:35.51
Bill
Really?

05:35.57
Mike
Yeah.

05:35.87
Bill
Okay, see, i didn't i didn't like I didn't know that to begin with.

05:36.12
Mike
Yeah. Well, they're all Canadian, right? Yeah. SCTV.

05:39.00
Bill
No, I know that, but I mean, i realize that i mean I know they're all Canadian, but it doesn't mean that they, you know, everything started.

05:39.16
Mike
and

05:43.67
Mike
Yeah.

05:44.04
Bill
I didn't know that, you know, that the TV show started in in Canada too, but, but no, that's fucking wonderful.

05:45.36
Mike
Yep. Yep. It did.

05:50.07
Bill
It was ah it was a good show.

05:50.58
Mike
Yep.

05:51.23
Bill
So, well, God damn it. um That's the bumps me out. So I'll have to watch that again.

05:54.96
Mike
Yep.

05:55.67
Bill
All right. Well, thanks for bringing down the fucking room.

05:56.98
Mike
Yeah.

05:57.43
Bill
Now we've got to come out of a goddamn dead dog story.

05:58.16
Mike
Yeah. a

06:02.14
Bill
Okay. Happier note. Did you, did you hear that the, the black girls are coming out with a new album?

06:06.55
Mike
Yeah, and they announced their tour, and they're going to be here in June.

06:10.04
Bill
I know. I know. I saw that. But, you know, the the thing of it is, is that, well, two things. i they they're There's two songs that have been released. So why because it popped up on Spotify about the new album that comes out March 13th.

06:22.04
Bill
But um and then the first first couple of songs. I mean, it sounds like they're they're newer stuff because they had their their last album. Was it Happiness Bastards that I like?

06:30.53
Mike
Mm-hmm.

06:30.63
Bill
I really like that album, all their newer music. But, you know, same deal. I mean, whenever it was last summer, the summer before, I'm like, I really want to see them. And then heard the same thing that all their tour dates. And I looked at all the different tour dates.

06:41.81
Bill
I was actually looking, that there were going to be a blossom and they're going to be, i don't think they're going, I didn't see if they're hitting Wisconsin or I think there's somewhere in Illinois, I'm guessing probably, i don't know if they're in, whatever.

06:44.55
Mike
Well

06:51.90
Mike
Probably Right Well Yeah

06:52.91
Bill
But, you know, I'm looking, I'm like, what cool part of the country can I go see? him You know, I mean, that's kind of what I was looking at. I'm like, where where do I want to go?

07:00.12
Mike
well

07:01.52
Bill
you know, but so, I mean, they're there. I mean, fucking they're going with whatever their whiskey something is the name of the band that they're with. i don't know. It's probably i don't know if they're their country band or are they?

07:10.65
Mike
yeah

07:12.71
Bill
OK, I didn't know who they were.

07:12.95
Mike
Yeah.

07:13.90
Bill
But um but yeah, I mean, there're there's just there's a whole fucking tour. I mean, from here to there and fucking literally every goddamn where.

07:18.80
Mike
Mm

07:22.54
Bill
So.

07:22.98
Mike
hmm.

07:23.74
Bill
But yeah, so yeah, I didn't know if you didn't know if you heard that. So anyhow, anyhow, yeah, that's that's that. But um all right, so I guess speaking of dying a little bit, okay, not really dying a little bit, but I i had my follow-up appointment with the cardiologist.

07:32.57
Mike
Yes.

07:38.65
Bill
Not anything bigger out of the ordinary around that part It was all good. i needed to do a follow-up. I think I had mentioned that. Not that it matters, but it was it was fine. Everything's good and everything's fine. But the funny part is, is they, in every,

07:52.98
Bill
I didn't really pay attention to until I heard this on the radio. But every time I went to the to the doctor through this this entire process, plus even back to when I had that that leg injury, you know they're like, when's the last time you fell?

08:05.24
Bill
Or have you have you fallen recently or anything like that? I'm not thinking anything of it.

08:08.07
Mike
Right.

08:08.88
Bill
you know But they were talking about it on the radio and you know the the thing, have you fallen recently? And apparently it's ah um it's got to be at a certain age. you know they start They start asking people because, I mean, clearly...

08:20.34
Mike
You start falling. Right.

08:22.52
Bill
Yeah. I mean, number one, you start fall ace freely, you know, and, um, you know, Bob, Bob saying it fell and fucking died in his sleep.

08:25.56
Mike
Right.

08:28.92
Bill
And, you know, I mean, whatever these things are. And then part of me, I'm like, I'm like, Jesus Christ, you know, but, um, I mean, two things I haven't fallen. Although when they asked me when the whole cardiology thing was the last time you fall, I'm like, well, April, I got the leg injury.

08:37.72
Mike
Mm-hmm.

08:42.24
Bill
I fell over a coffee table, but you know, it didn't hit my head if that's, if that's what you're asking.

08:43.80
Mike
Right.

08:46.98
Bill
But, um,

08:47.38
Mike
Mm-hmm.

08:48.70
Bill
I mean, I don't know. So I guess I was going to ask you this question because you get, you have to get a physical every year, correct?

08:51.45
Mike
Yes.

08:54.18
Bill
For driving?

08:54.33
Mike
Every two years.

08:55.03
Bill
Oh, is every two? Okay.

08:56.93
Mike
Yeah.

08:57.00
Bill
Do they ask you that during that or no?

08:58.58
Mike
Um... I don't think so.

09:04.70
Bill
Really?

09:04.85
Mike
Nah, nah, I don't know. They have, i no, I don't think so.

09:09.18
Bill
Right.

09:09.72
Mike
I don't know. They might. I i don't know. hey I mean, it's, it's pretty basic stuff and you know, whatever, you know, make sure your blood sugar not too high.

09:14.81
Bill
Right.

09:17.68
Mike
Make sure you're not too fat. Make sure your blood pressure is not too high. and You know, whatever. Can you bend over

09:24.50
Mike
and

09:27.39
Mike
Can you hear?

09:27.90
Bill
Well,

09:27.91
Mike
Can you see? ah Can you move? Can you walk? All right. Go drive a truck.

09:33.46
Bill
right. Well, I mean, i'm I'm guessing they probably want to make sure that, you know, that you're not going to, you know, like fucking stroke out or have a heart attack while you're driving down the road too, you know, with how many, how many pounds is that whole, that whole full rig of yours with the, with the trailer and, know,

09:40.63
Mike
Yeah. Right. Yeah. 80,000. Yeah.

09:45.99
Mike
Uh-huh. eighty thousand

09:49.11
Bill
yeah I mean, the lap, but you know, at 80, 80,000 pounds at, you know, 60 miles an hour or 75 or whatever the fuck you're able to do, they probably don't want one of their drivers, you know, you know, fucking stroking out while they're, you know, have that much, have that much weight under them.

09:52.05
Mike
yeah

09:54.84
Mike
aha

10:01.56
Mike
Yep.

10:04.07
Bill
So, um but I just didn't know. I mean, it just made me think about that. i'm like, God, I wonder if you get asked if you fall. I mean, you're, you and I are of this, of the same age, you know?

10:11.48
Mike
Right. i Hell, i'm a little older. Right, exactly. no nobody's Nobody's asked me recently if I've fallen, and I haven't, so there you go.

10:20.92
Bill
Well, you and i did talk about that on here the one time, because I think I told you I fell off my chair the one time and i don't know, whatever it was really a year or so ago we were talking because i remember i was leaning back and stretching in my my chair.

10:23.56
Mike
ha, ha, ha. Ha, ha, ha, ha.

10:32.17
Bill
And it was when I had one that still had the the chairs that would lean my office chair.

10:35.41
Mike
Mm-hmm.

10:36.01
Bill
And yeah, I just flipped right over the back.

10:36.15
Mike
Right.

10:37.77
Bill
And then, you know, again, feeling that what a scary fucking moment. You know, i mean, I didn't hit anything, but, you know, you just you you kind of lay there for minute like, am I OK?

10:47.61
Mike
I've fallen and I can't get back up.

10:48.12
Bill
You know? Great. Well, even with this, the whole fucking coffee table thing, I mean, granted it ended up being all fucked up, but um I mean, when I first fell, I mean, had I, had I gone a little bit further, I would have hit my head on my desk, you know, and and all that stuff.

11:00.17
Mike
Mm-hmm.

11:01.51
Bill
And I'm just, you just lay there and you're like, what the fuck? Okay. What? My leg hurts. My shoulder hurts a little bit.

11:06.94
Mike
significant

11:07.65
Bill
I think I got a rug burn on my elbow. And that was when you know, did this whole thing, but I'm like, am I, is anything else like really fucked up? You know, Because you just, again, I suppose it it at our age, you know and did you just never know.

11:22.52
Bill
Right?

11:23.45
Mike
Right.

11:25.27
Bill
Sorry, i I literally thought I lost you. I'm like, the fuck did you go?

11:29.05
Mike
Well, you're getting, I'm getting a little zits out of you, but that's cool.

11:34.40
Bill
Really? no Well, no, I mean, you you zipped out a minute ago.

11:35.38
Mike
Yup.

11:38.88
Bill
Just nothing nothing bad.

11:39.16
Mike
Mm-hmm.

11:40.68
Bill
And Jermaine was zipping out at the at the end when when we were talking to him.

11:44.34
Mike
Ah.

11:45.80
Bill
So I don't know whether it's – it could easily be on who knows end.

11:46.44
Mike
Hmm.

11:49.60
Bill
but But so, I mean, you can still hear me though, correct?

11:50.04
Mike
Right. Yeah. I mean, Jermaine sounded fine to me the whole time. um Yeah, but you you are a little breaky-uppy on my end.

11:58.26
Bill
Okay, it still is?

11:59.67
Mike
Yeah.

12:00.79
Bill
Oh, shit. Well, hopefully, but i don't know if it gets if it gets really bad where you can't hear me, I guess just yell or something like that and we'll figure something else out. So, all right.

12:09.05
Mike
right

12:10.14
Bill
So, and this is something that this got brought up and this is actually an AA question and I wanted to to run this by you. And I think it was brought up, it might've been brought up on Sober Friends if I'm not mistaken.

12:20.54
Bill
Either somebody asked Matt or came up in conversation, whatever the case is, but somebody had mentioned about AA being referred to as a cult, okay? or a

12:30.14
Mike
Yeah.

12:31.35
Bill
Or a cult of sorts, okay?

12:33.28
Mike
Mm-hmm.

12:33.59
Bill
So in the, I don't even want to tell you what he said, but so what do you, what's your opinion on that? Because I mean, we've heard the same thing, but what's your opinion on on AA being called a cult?

12:42.05
Mike
sure

12:45.05
Mike
i i laugh i hell i call it a cult sometimes um yeah you know i mean again you know like we were talking with jermaine you know and and spend your whole fucking life in a church basement i mean you know everything is what you make of it um yes it can certainly be cult-like at times um If you allow it to, um yeah, like anything else, um, you know, I, I don't allow it to become a cult with me.

13:12.31
Mike
Um, I certainly look around the rooms and see people and go, ah, motherfucker, man, you know, he, he can't survive outside of this thing. Um, you know, and that's, that's sad.

13:24.07
Mike
Uh, yeah, you know, it's everything. Well, no, it's not. It's a tool like everything else. And, um, it's a system that you can use to better your life or you could disappear in it and, um, and not have a life outside of it.

13:40.90
Mike
Um, I, choose I choose not to do that.

13:41.16
Bill
Right.

13:44.66
Bill
Well, and you know, the the thing with it is, and i and I remember, because I had a note in here to look up the definition, because I looked it up and I was just kind of curious.

13:49.44
Mike
Hmm. Yeah. Yeah.

13:51.70
Bill
And so the the number one definition, dictionary definition, says a relatively small group of people, okay, having beliefs or practices, okay, especially relating to religion or, you know, I mean, even though it's not necessarily religious, has the overtones, right, that are regarded by others as strange.

13:57.13
Mike
Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Yeah.

14:04.72
Mike
Mm-hmm. Right.

14:10.84
Mike
Yeah, it's a cult.

14:13.24
Bill
Um, it's a cult and I mean, you know, it, it, it, it walks like a cult.

14:14.20
Mike
Yes, it does. Mm-hmm. Right.

14:18.19
Bill
It quacks like a cult, but now the, the other part says, or sinister or as imposing excessive control over members.

14:18.52
Mike
yes it does

14:25.55
Bill
But again,

14:25.85
Mike
right but If you allow it to, yes, of course it can.

14:30.06
Bill
right.

14:30.74
Mike
yeah You know, it,

14:31.19
Bill
Well, no, go ahead.

14:32.54
Mike
And in the beginning you in the beginning, you sort of have to let that happen, um you know, to make that psychic change. But once that psychic change happens, um hopefully, you know, well, if if that psychic change happens, um then you um receive that balance and that freedom and that whatever.

14:51.87
Mike
And and you yeah, you know, like, I mean, you know, clearly you don't go to meetings very often. i go once a week. Um, you know, yeah, there are people that, you know, go every fucking day, man, you know, twice a day.

15:05.80
Mike
They live in a goddamn church basement. Good for you. You know, um, yeah, you know, if it's, if it's keeping you happy and keeping you from hurting people.

15:09.78
Bill
right

15:14.77
Mike
Okay. Um, I, I personally didn't get sober to live in a church basement. Right.

15:22.74
Bill
Well, and, you know, the funny part is, is that and that's why I didn't want to say what, you know, how Matt responded to that.

15:29.05
Mike
Right.

15:29.21
Bill
And again, this is Matt from Sober Friends. He said, you know, it sort of is, you know, or it sort of can be.

15:32.49
Mike
Yeah.

15:33.29
Bill
And he was, you know, the same is almost the same exact things that that we were just talking about.

15:33.50
Mike
Right.

15:36.86
Mike
Yeah.

15:37.37
Bill
and And I remember I didn't remember what it said, but I'm like, that's why I made a note about looking up the the definition, because, um yeah, I mean, based on.

15:42.30
Mike
listen Yeah.

15:46.55
Bill
They said the definition, of course, is a fucking cult.

15:47.74
Mike
Yeah. Yes.

15:49.01
Bill
But you know what? So here here's the thing, and here's the other way I kind of i kind of liken this to. Well, you know, so clearly so is church. I mean, you know, um you know church could be that way. i mean I mean, shit, walking into, I don't know, you could be at a concert that could be considered cult-like, you know.

16:00.41
Mike
Right.

16:03.00
Mike
Right. yeah Planet Fitness.

16:07.74
Bill
Planet Fitness, there you go. You know, i I suppose the Rocky Horror Picture Show could be considered a cult, you know, because and anything like that.

16:11.90
Mike
Yes, absolutely. Right. yeah The Republican Party, the Democratic Party.

16:17.21
Bill
a Your local school board.

16:21.79
Mike
That's right. Hmm.

16:24.34
Bill
Well, and you know, the thing with this, I mean, shit, the the it doesn't matter where wherever you work. You got to say, maybe dress a certain way. You got to say certain things.

16:31.90
Mike
Yeah.

16:32.74
Bill
You're going to act a certain way.

16:32.95
Mike
Right. Uh-huh.

16:34.18
Bill
You got to be there at a certain time. You got to have a certain cadence with you.

16:36.63
Mike
Yeah. fifty

16:38.50
Bill
I mean, everything's a goddamn fucking cult, you know?

16:39.19
Mike
um um Right.

16:42.07
Bill
So, um I don't know. it' just it kind of It made me laugh, and I'm like, I don't know that we've ever talked about that, but when they brought it up, I'm like, like God, that makes... it i want to talk about that, because I didn't know and know what your opinion was on it, but I'm glad we're on the we're on the same page.

16:50.86
Mike
Right.

16:54.75
Bill
Like, ah, fuck it. Let it be a goddamn cult.

16:56.47
Mike
Well, yeah, of course it's a cult, but it's what do you want to do with it?

16:56.55
Bill
Like you said...

17:00.76
Bill
yeah Well, it's ah that like other people say that, you know, well I went into AA and they were just brainwashing me. Well, my brain was pretty fucking dirty. It needed some washing.

17:08.82
Mike
Yep, exactly.

17:11.51
Bill
That's when i we first got sober. The first time I heard that, I'm like, that's the best fucking answer ever.

17:14.14
Mike
if

17:16.82
Bill
It really is. Yeah, I i was brainwashed because it my brain was fucking filthy.

17:20.63
Mike
yeah it needed a good washing.

17:22.81
Bill
yeah All right. So um and you've watched, I think we established, you've watched a little bit of Nurse Jackie, right?

17:29.18
Mike
i have.

17:30.01
Bill
Okay. So, and I'm still watching through that. don't know what season I'm on. It doesn't really fucking matter. But so there was a guy in there that um he was in the ER.

17:34.98
Mike
Mm-hmm.

17:38.42
Bill
He had terminal cancer or terminal liver cancer. Again, not that it matters which it was, but I suppose he's an alcoholic.

17:42.02
Mike
Uh huh.

17:44.88
Bill
22 years sober. Okay. And he literally, I mean, literally on his deathbed.

17:47.87
Mike
Uh

17:51.15
Bill
And, you know, all they could do is they're going to make him comfortable before he dies.

17:54.33
Mike
huh.

17:54.43
Bill
Okay. We obviously know that story goes, but he declines any morphine because they were about to give him some morphine.

17:54.87
Mike
Right. Yeah.

18:00.59
Bill
He's like, Oh no decline, blah, blah, blah.

18:00.87
Mike
Yeah.

18:02.71
Bill
So my question is, and I mean, he's in literally an extreme pain. And I mean, we know, we know that, um, you know, the, uh, from talking to our good friend, Mara, if you listen to her episode, please, uh, this, this kind of relates to this in my, in my head is that, You know, sometimes you've got to, the body has to let go to let go type of thing, you know, and she, she explained it wonderfully.

18:06.84
Mike
Yeah.

18:13.02
Mike
hu

18:16.13
Mike
Yeah.

18:20.81
Mike
Right.

18:22.91
Bill
But so my question is, i don't think we've ever talked about this, but in that circumstance, what would you do? You, Mike.

18:30.33
Mike
Yeah, me personally, and shoot me up

18:32.08
Bill
Yeah. Right.

18:34.46
Mike
Yeah.

18:34.58
Bill
Right.

18:35.13
Mike
Yeah. You know, I'm exactly, you know, i right. It's not like I'm out, you know, out on the street copping so I can fucking party. um Yeah.

18:46.93
Mike
You know, I'm dying. um Yeah. Make me comfortable. Absolutely.

18:50.12
Bill
Right.

18:51.00
Mike
Yeah. You know, help me let go. Yeah. Help me to let go. Absolutely. You know, I mean, talked about it a little bit, maybe on here. I've certainly talked about it in real life. I mean, that's, you know, I have absolutely no desire. I'm already old. have absolutely no desire to be elderly.

19:10.10
Mike
i just don't. Um, it's not something, you know, I don't want to live to be into my nineties. I don't, I fucking don't.

19:15.29
Bill
right

19:17.13
Mike
Um, I've lived a good life, you know, haven't been the most healthy person in the world. And there's going to come a time where I'm going to go. All right, I'm done. And i you know, I don't want to draw it out. I don't want to, I don't man. You know, your, your fucking dog gets sick. Your cat gets sick. What do you do?

19:35.45
Mike
You put it down Right. But we're fucking human beings and we're special and and we're whatever. Life is precious. No, it's not. We all fucking die. We're all gonna die. I'm going to die. i don't want to suffer and I don't want to hang out longer than, than I need to.

19:52.70
Mike
I don't, I have absolutely no desire.

19:52.80
Bill
Right.

19:54.62
Mike
i have no desire to be elderly, you know, quite frankly, quite frankly, um I've kind of been thinking about it lately. Um, you know, I got about it six or seven years left.

20:04.87
Mike
Good years left in me. Six, seven. Um, I really do.

20:08.76
Bill
a

20:11.13
Mike
You know, I mean, my birthday is coming up in a couple of weeks. I'm thinking about this shit. You know, I'm a year away from being 60 years old. Um, well I'm going to have, you know, maybe six or seven years after that. And then and then it's going to start getting shitty. No, thank you.

20:28.25
Mike
No fucking thank you. So, yes, give me the medicine. Help me let go. And I'm letting the fuck go.

20:36.98
Bill
Well, you know what? And I think that you, I don't, whether I mentioned it completely, but you know, I mean, i had a fucking heart attack, man. And then, you know, I mean, ah I've been open, I've been open with it, you know, on here and you know, I thought living a relatively healthy life, whatever, none of us are, are immune to any of that stuff, you know, but the, but the thing of it is, I mean,

20:43.36
Mike
Right.

20:45.91
Mike
Right.

20:53.23
Mike
Right.

20:55.70
Bill
if I wasn't, you know, thinking about my own mortality, sure as fuck I am now over the last three months.

20:58.49
Mike
here Right.

21:00.46
Bill
And it was funny, you know, come to come to think of that. First of all, I'm i'm just going to say that the short answer is I agree with what you just said, but I'm going to, I'm probably going expand on that a little bit because that's what I do.

21:08.94
Mike
Yeah. Yeah.

21:10.37
Bill
Okay.

21:10.69
Mike
Right.

21:10.89
Bill
But I'm, I'm in the cardiologist's office and I'm going all this stuff. They did the EKG, which is simple enough. Um, I'm asking him a couple of things. I said, okay, every once in a while at the end of the day, you know, I'm i'm really tired, but I said, um, You know, I said more so on like a Friday night when I'm, when I'm up early doing my thing, I do all my walking all through the day and then I'm up later.

21:30.76
Bill
By the time I hit the bed, sometimes I'm falling asleep trying to do my prayers and all that stuff. You know, my in my, in my 10 step, um, last night was like, I had one of those days last night.

21:35.35
Mike
Yeah.

21:39.97
Bill
I, I fucking fell asleep for 45 minutes, woke up and literally finished my prayers.

21:42.09
Mike
Yeah. Right.

21:44.97
Bill
Cause the way I'm laying it, I'm like, I'm like, where, what parts did I get to?

21:45.28
Mike
Mm-hmm.

21:48.13
Bill
It's like the last five minutes, not five minutes, the last 30 seconds, minute, whatever. But I mean, I was really fucking tired.

21:52.02
Mike
right

21:53.72
Bill
So I'm going through and I'm asking them all these different things, just a couple of just random things. And I'm like, okay, okay. I said, now I'm going to, I said, I know, you know, I'm a crystal ball, but I said, I have to ask this question. I said, so all said and done, I said, I realized same thing I said on here. I, I know I have heart disease. I get that.

22:09.43
Bill
you know, I understand that even though you guys clean me up and I'm good and my quality of life has improved, all those things are fucking true. But I said, what does this mean for, I said, you know, if you've got normal life expectancy, what does this mean for me, depending on the type, whatever.

22:16.26
Mike
Right.

22:24.54
Bill
And he said, he goes, well, he goes, just just to be honest with you, goes, whatever a, and he said, normal person, didn't really do air quotes, but that's kind of what he was doing with what he rolled is when he rolled his eyes at me.

22:32.56
Mike
Uh-huh. Yeah. yeah

22:35.48
Bill
He goes, if a normal person is this, he goes, you're probably, you know, eyeballing less than normal. He said, but. you never know he goes it sounds like you've you know you yeah you eat right you do this you're you know keep up the walk you do all these different things take your medication you know you keep an eye on me make sure this and this and that blah blah blah but he said he goes i'll tell you what i tell all my patients and i said okay and he said quit worrying about that and pay attention to who you are and what you're doing now in your life

22:54.91
Mike
Uh-huh.

23:02.42
Mike
a Yes, did.

23:03.13
Bill
And in my head, I'm like, you motherfucker, you just recovered me. You just, you just fucking recovered me.

23:06.90
Mike
did. Uh-huh. Yep. Mm-hmm.

23:08.69
Bill
You, who, who are you to do that to me?

23:08.73
Mike
yes he did it it

23:12.59
Bill
But I'm like, I'm like, fuck you. I didn't say that to him, but in my head, I'm just like, i'm like, goddamn, like, like, you know what?

23:17.71
Mike
aha

23:18.95
Bill
Good point. I said, that's all I said to him was good point because that's what we talk about, you know?

23:19.99
Mike
yep

23:23.47
Bill
But so here, here's the thing now. As long as I, just like anything else, okay, if if you've got, like you said, you know, I mean, maybe a good six, seven years, who knows? Maybe, i mean, you seem like you're relatively, you don't have real health issues right now.

23:32.63
Mike
Yeah.

23:36.11
Bill
If you do, or if you end up with them, that's a different story.

23:36.12
Mike
Right. Right.

23:38.83
Bill
You know, but but the thing of it is, and I don't,

23:39.00
Mike
Mm-hmm.

23:42.07
Bill
and I'm not disagreeing with your word. My mindset is kind of what you said, but I don't look at the term old versus elderly. I look at, I look at it as, um, you know, and what is my quality of life, which I think is kind of what you're saying, you know, but you're, you're putting a word on it, which is fine.

23:48.02
Mike
Yeah.

23:52.57
Mike
Yeah. Yeah.

23:56.20
Bill
I i agree with you 100% elderly.

23:57.59
Mike
Mm-hmm.

23:58.50
Bill
Cause I know what that means. And I know what that, I know what the vision of elderly is.

23:59.38
Mike
Right. Uh-huh. aha

24:02.40
Bill
You know, when you say I've got an elderly family member, it's the the dude sitting in the chair with a blanket on his fucking legs and, you know, drooling, drooling.

24:07.54
Mike
Yeah, right. yeah yeah Yeah. Right. Right. Cool.

24:11.58
Bill
Yeah. And I don't want to be that guy.

24:11.69
Mike
Yeah.

24:12.82
Bill
I don't want to be that guy either.

24:13.19
Mike
nope

24:14.18
Bill
You know, so um here's, here's the good news for me. Okay. I've got one up on you just a little bit.

24:18.52
Mike
me

24:20.29
Bill
If I get to the point where I start getting that, I'm just going to stop taking all my medications.

24:24.57
Mike
a

24:25.62
Bill
I swear to God, that's all I got to do. If I stop taking my medications within three, three to six months, I'll be dead because my heart will fucking clog up a again.

24:28.34
Mike
right

24:32.44
Mike
right cool

24:35.12
Bill
I just have a fucking heart attack. I just, and I'll stop, just stop putting, putting oil in the, in the, in the car.

24:40.28
Mike
Yeah, right, exactly.

24:41.27
Bill
stop I just stopped putting oil in the engine and I'm just...

24:42.10
Mike
And

24:45.80
Mike
it'll seize. yeah

24:49.05
Bill
So fuck you, dude. I got you beat already. I got i kept my i kept my plan.

24:51.13
Mike
All right.

24:52.93
Bill
I don't need anything self self-assisted.

24:53.27
Mike
Yeah.

24:55.05
Bill
I don't need Dr. Gaworkian.

24:56.70
Mike
Right.

24:57.10
Bill
I just need to stop taking my fucking medication.

24:58.17
Mike
Well, I'll cop some fentanyl. I'm fine. You know, whatever.

25:02.07
Bill
I know.

25:02.45
Mike
Yeah.

25:02.87
Bill
I know. But, but the, you know, on that, on that same line, speaking of, speaking of fentanyl, um to your point, I would have, I would do the same thing if I was in that, in that point, I think back to the, again, the procedure, you know, when, when they gave me the, I mean, number one, you know, to do the operation, they have to give you something.

25:08.73
Mike
who

25:19.07
Bill
I, I, I don't think that they, if somebody is like, I don't want to have anything when do you guys do this procedure, I don't think they could do that.

25:19.51
Mike
Right.

25:26.09
Bill
I don't,

25:26.04
Mike
Yeah, right.

25:27.22
Bill
I just don't, I don't think so. Even though I wasn't out completely, i just don't think that they can, I don't think they could do that.

25:30.21
Mike
Yeah.

25:32.86
Bill
But, you know, when, when they were doing the, the first one,

25:33.21
Mike
Right.

25:35.74
Mike
Well, a little tough for him to do it while you're screaming.

25:38.55
Bill
Exactly. Exactly. You know, but I mean, the same thing when they, when they did the, uh, the first one with the incision where they do, do the pressure point. And I said, yeah, just give me the, and I think it was morphine. And then they probably gave me, they gave me morphine or something like that.

25:50.91
Bill
Like, fine, fucking give it to me, you know? Um, but so I get, but, it but the same thing, you know, I, I knew why I was saying yes to it.

25:52.78
Mike
Right.

25:58.35
Bill
It was a, it was, first of all, it's prescribed by a doctor.

25:58.70
Mike
Yeah.

26:01.30
Bill
I'm taking it as directed and there's a medical reason to do it.

26:03.02
Mike
Uh-huh.

26:04.78
Bill
I'm not like, Hey, you know, fuck me up. And you know, just, Just because I'm hanging out now, you know, afterwards, you know, for the next day I was sitting there, you know, if the nurse came in and said, do you want a cup of coffee?

26:07.06
Mike
Yeah, right.

26:14.26
Bill
I'm like, yeah, throw me some of that fentanyl. youre at

26:16.44
Mike
a

26:17.14
Bill
You know, then, i mean, then, you know, that could be a question mark, but yeah, why not?

26:19.48
Mike
Yeah.

26:22.22
Bill
You know, if we get fucking comfortable, you know?

26:24.06
Mike
Yeah. Can I get a couple of lewds water in there, honey?

26:29.36
Bill
Rub my dick and give me some fentanyl.

26:30.78
Mike
yeah Any of that medical grade cocaine back there?

26:38.44
Bill
Give me some medical grade cocaine and a happy ending.

26:45.40
Mike
let See, I'd go to the fucking hospital for that.

26:47.83
Bill
yeah The only problem was is i my my fucking groin had been worked on. I don't know that i dont know they could have been you know doing some shit down there.

26:51.77
Mike
who

26:54.87
Bill
It could have fucking killed me.

26:56.18
Mike
Yeah, well, you know, they're professionals. so They know what they're doing.

26:59.19
Bill
Yeah. or you know, hey, well, if I'm going to die, it's right at the end.

27:02.07
Mike
Right.

27:05.75
Bill
All of a sudden your fucking artery blows. You're like, okay, there it is.

27:09.72
Mike
Cool.

27:11.61
Bill
ah But anyhow, so my my point is a great, great conversation. ah

27:16.30
Mike
I'll have what he's having.

27:18.33
Bill
Exactly. But, but no, I mean, I was just curious about that. And, you know, mean, yeah, why wouldn't, especially at the end there, we're doing it, we're doing it for the right reasons, I think is our, is our main point in our, in our opinion.

27:26.16
Mike
hmm. Mm hmm.

27:28.33
Bill
But yeah, I mean, I, I agree with you. And I, again, I mean, how can, I mean, i you know, i like, and I, like I said, I had, I had the fucking procedure. I mean, that, that, that is what it is. It's, it would be weird if I wasn't questioning my, you know, my own mortality, but, um You know, I mean, same deal, man.

27:41.10
Mike
Sure.

27:44.24
Bill
I don't, I don't want to, I want to do whatever I can to try to enjoy my life and have my quality of life be there because, because without it in, you know, ah mom, I I'm glad that she was around for the you know handful of extra years that she was.

27:49.09
Mike
Yeah. Yo.

27:58.06
Mike
Mm-hmm.

27:58.28
Bill
Cause I consider those extra years because when she started to get weird was, mean weird, but I mean, when um by the time she moved to Indiana, which was, summer of 2015.

28:09.36
Bill
Um, I don't think she went on oxygen for another two, three years, maybe.

28:10.62
Mike
Uh-huh.

28:14.30
Mike
Right, right.

28:14.74
Bill
So you figure what 2018 and then she died in 22. So you figure what the last four years, three, at least, um, her quality of life fucking was terrible, you know?

28:19.80
Mike
Yeah. Uh-huh. Yeah. oh Well.

28:25.08
Bill
And I, I just, I mean, I didn't want her to die, but I mean, I would just, it fucking paid me to, to watch her, to watch her live that way.

28:28.22
Mike
Right. Mm-hmm.

28:32.34
Bill
And I don't want, I don't want, I don't want that to happen, you know?

28:32.63
Mike
Right. Yeah. Exactly. Well, I'm...

28:36.44
Bill
So, I mean,

28:37.18
Mike
Yeah. I'm not letting it happen.

28:39.06
Bill
yeah Right. Right.

28:41.05
Mike
I'm way too sober for that shit.

28:42.94
Bill
Right. Yeah. Like, like you said, like we were, we had this, so we had that whole conversation with, uh, when Maro's on and, uh, yeah, it is, it it's a, and you made a good point.

28:48.92
Mike
Yep.

28:52.20
Bill
And I, I don't, I don't disagree with that at all. Um, you know, the, that the whole point of, again, putting down an animal, I mean, when they're, yeah.

29:00.58
Mike
Yeah. So it's not suffering. Yeah.

29:03.28
Bill
And then, I mean, we're right.

29:03.61
Mike
Yeah. They're done. Right. Yeah. Anything else is selfish. Right. you're keeping it You're letting this poor creature suffer for you.

29:08.03
Bill
Right.

29:12.57
Bill
Right.

29:12.92
Mike
Yeah. No. No. Well, I'm not going to suffer for anybody else either. Again, way too sober for this shit.

29:17.37
Bill
Yeah, that, yeah that, that creature. But I mean, I think I know the answer beyond that.

29:21.27
Mike
Yep.

29:22.89
Bill
You know, it's that there there's money behind keeping people alive. There's that, there's money in the, there's money in death too.

29:26.17
Mike
Oh, yeah.

29:28.09
Bill
i mean, don't get me wrong, but um there there's, I think there's more money that, that the fact that when you're, you know, ah either above ground or not, or not scattered around it, you know, there there's money involved in that.

29:28.79
Mike
Sure. Yeah.

29:38.30
Mike
Oh, yeah, sure.

29:38.49
Bill
So, you know,

29:39.06
Mike
Right. There's giant buildings all over the place and housing. Yeah. Thousands and tens of thousands and hundreds of thousands of people that should have been dead years ago.

29:50.48
Bill
Right. Right.

29:50.97
Mike
he

29:51.93
Bill
Yeah. and That's the thing. I don't want to go into some fucking assisted living or yeah don't no assisted living or anything either.

29:54.45
Mike
Yeah. No.

29:59.19
Mike
Yeah, I'll live on my own. Thank you very much. And when I can't, I won't.

30:01.66
Bill
Right. yeah It's just where'd Mike go? Well, he just he's he's just not anymore. Yeah.

30:08.98
Mike
Right. He couldn't live anymore.

30:11.10
Bill
Right. Yeah. And there's and again, there's there's absolutely nothing nothing wrong with that at all. Nothing wrong with that at all.

30:15.90
Mike
aha

30:16.78
Bill
So, all right. Well, I don't know. I mean, we put it up we put it in our 30. You good?

30:21.62
Mike
Yeah, we did. Yeah,

30:24.92
Bill
i mean, I'm good if you're good. I mean, i all right.

30:26.84
Mike
um yeah I'm good.

30:29.04
Bill
Cool.

30:29.30
Mike
All right, cool. Well, thank you everyone for listening to yet another episode of Sober Not Mature. Thank you, Jermaine, for coming on and sharing your story and your art and your book and everything. You got to go check them out on on Instagram and the link will be in the description and all that good stuff. Check it out.

30:50.58
Mike
And as always, be kind to each other, be good to each other. go out and do something nice for somebody else this week and don't tell anybody you did it. Go check out some Catherine O'Hara art out there. There's plenty of it and it's all really good.

31:05.18
Mike
And now, kiddies, from the bottom of my heart to the depths of my soul, from the beginning of time until the ends of the earth, always and eternally, fuck you.

31:23.13
Mike
and Now it's time, kids. It's time for you to fuck off. Then keep fucking off. Keep fucking off till you get to a gate with a sign on it saying, you cannot fuck off past here.

31:38.49
Mike
Climb over that gate. Dream the impossible dream. And keep fucking off for forever. Or at least until you're done.

31:48.74
Bill
It sounded like you almost forgot where you you lost your place there before you were going to read the the first thing. You're just kind of like, ah

31:55.03
Mike
Yeah, didn't think about it for minute. Whatever.

31:57.16
Bill
uh, there's nothing, nothing wrong with that. I mean, all these things just, just, I, then for a minute when you did I'm like, yeah, where, what part did he just do? I wasn't paying attention cause I'm mute and I wasn't really paying attention, but you know, here's, this was a good lead in this, this half hour is a good lead into to next week is, Next week, herere everyone's stuck with us.

32:05.28
Mike
Yeah.

32:15.18
Bill
we have We don't have any other guests lined up for a while. So, you know, we're all stuck with ah ah we all.

32:17.46
Mike
now

32:22.02
Bill
they're They're stuck with us. We got to fucking be here one way or the other.

32:24.34
Mike
Man, we're stuck with ourselves constantly, 24 fucking hours a day.

32:24.78
Bill
Anyhow. Yeah, that's...

32:28.58
Mike
You people just have to deal with it for 90 minutes a week.

32:31.10
Bill
Yeah, and in our four-year podcast anniversary is coming up in a few weeks. February 27th, and that happens to be it.

32:35.96
Mike
ah Ah.

32:39.06
Bill
i just I'm like, is that actually a recording night? It is. so and We actually get to record on our four-year anniversary for this this little podcast.

32:42.26
Mike
Nice.

32:46.78
Bill
A little podcast that could.

32:48.89
Mike
Chugga, chugga, chugga.

32:50.46
Bill
going to find that guy that told us we wouldn't make it. Fuck you, dude.

32:52.67
Mike
That's right. Yeah.

32:53.62
Bill
You and your fucking statistics and you can't make it a year.

32:53.87
Mike
Yes. Yes.

32:56.54
Bill
How about four, motherfucker?

32:58.34
Mike
that's right who

32:59.78
Bill
What? I'm going to find him, invite him out as a guest, tell him to fuck off and then hang up on him.

33:03.64
Mike
yeah

33:06.28
Bill
That'll that'll be our anniversary episode. Then we'll just go out with the episode.

33:08.09
Mike
yeah

33:09.69
Bill
We'll just go to a different different studio so he can't come back or whatever.

33:13.56
Mike
she

33:15.06
Bill
Yeah, that's that's fucking evil. But anyhow, anyhow. All right.

33:18.74
Mike
yes

33:18.86
Bill
um What do we say now? Oh, yeah. I love you, brother.

33:20.70
Mike
but Oh, yeah.

33:21.32
Bill
Great.

33:21.38
Mike
Oh, yes. I love you, too.

33:22.71
Bill
And I know we'll talk soon.

33:23.75
Mike
shall. Bye. we shall

33:27.16
Bill
All righty. Bye.