SoberNotMature - Episode 205 (Ben F. - Shining A Light On The Shuffle)

00:00:01.75
Bill
All right, everyone. Welcome once again to another episode of Sober Not Mature. And we have a hell of a guest tonight, in our opinion.

00:00:10.58
Mike
We do.

00:00:12.11
Bill
So, Ben, we'll we'll have you introduce yourself in a minute. But I want to start off with two words, and I want to get Mike's opinion, too. I'm going to use the words, holy fuck, and that has to do with your documentary, Ben.

00:00:20.44
Mike
I concur. Holy fuck.

00:00:22.03
Bill
So, Mike, what do you think?

00:00:23.58
Mike
yes i concur holy fuck

00:00:26.71
Bill
So um two things. i don't I don't know that I've ever had an opportunity to to pre-screen something. I mean, anything. So that was kind of a treat. And well, I know you recorded with the Sober Curator, too.

00:00:38.63
Bill
We'll talk about that a little bit because we're affiliated with them also.

00:00:40.09
ben
Yeah, cool.

00:00:41.63
Bill
But I don't think we've ever had that opportunity. I haven't to pre-screen something. So it's it was a treat. It was engaging. Now, here's the other thing. and that We realize that not everyone has seen this, obviously.

00:00:53.10
ben
Sure.

00:00:53.33
Bill
We'll tiptoe around. We're not going to give away things.

00:00:56.03
Mike
Hmm.

00:00:56.08
Bill
I've got a ton of fucking questions. I'm sure you do, too, Mike.

00:00:57.62
Mike
Yes.

00:00:58.92
Bill
you know But we'll be brief and basic, and we're not going to try to give anything away. We don't want to give anything away because the whole thing was just, it was fucking spectacular.

00:01:08.76
ben
Yeah, thank you very much. Thank you. And thank you both for having me. It's a pleasure to be here.

00:01:11.99
Mike
Absolutely. Thanks for coming on with us.

00:01:13.14
Bill
Oh, yeah.

00:01:13.18
ben
Talk to you. Yeah.

00:01:14.56
Bill
You know what? in the Here's the thing. It's like there's certain waves of the year. And I think it was last year at this time, too, Mike, wasn't it? The beginning of the year when when we got this flood of people, you know, that coming in, um you know, and for whatever reason, however, however, your people found us, you know, some other people found us the same way.

00:01:21.09
ben
The beginning of the year when we got this flood of...

00:01:23.51
Mike
Yes.

00:01:28.21
ben
Oh, and......way, so we're kind

00:01:30.03
Bill
So we're kind of we get this wave of people that come in at different times of the year. So um I don't know. However you found us, we're glad you did.

00:01:38.58
ben
yeah no Yeah, I'm here.

00:01:38.68
Bill
Are you still there? Oh, OK.

00:01:40.33
ben
i'm here i'm here it's a pleasure It's my pleasure to be here. And and again, thanks for having me.

00:01:45.05
Bill
Yeah, not a problem.

00:01:45.08
Mike
Absolutely.

00:01:45.69
Bill
Yeah, the only reason I asked that, I heard a little bit of an echo again. I thought maybe if we, I thought we possibly lost you or something got disconnected.

00:01:50.33
Mike
he Maybe you switch feet.

00:01:51.81
Bill
so

00:01:52.79
ben
I did. I had to switch feet. My foot got tired. Yeah.

00:01:56.98
Bill
Well, so so first of all, do do us a favor, at least introduce yourself. Tell us who you are, where you're from. a very brief intro, and then we'll get into how we do things around here. And then we we got a shitload of things to talk about with you. know that much.

00:02:09.69
ben
Excellent. Excellent. Well, my name is Benjamin Flaherty. I'm a filmmaker. I'm the director of a film called Shuffle that's now playing in select cities. We'll roll out to a bunch more over the next couple of weeks. I'm talking to you from Austin, Texas tonight.

00:02:23.51
Mike
Nice.

00:02:23.61
Bill
Nice. Nice. Yeah. And I, and I thought so obviously just from the, just from the promo, cause it, or, uh, yeah, the bio and stuff that we got, it said Austin, but I didn't know if you actually lived there or that's where you're from. But, uh, yeah, one of these days ah and Mike, I'm sure you've been to Austin before I'm guessing, correct?

00:02:38.13
Mike
Driven through. okay.

00:02:40.54
ben
Yeah, i'm ah I'm not from here.

00:02:41.02
Bill
Yeah, I've,

00:02:42.54
ben
i've I live here, but I'm from Chicago originally or outside Chicago.

00:02:45.59
Mike
oh okay

00:02:46.17
Bill
Oh, yeah, yeah.

00:02:46.55
ben
Yeah.

00:02:46.69
Bill
I forgot. I forgot about that. Yeah, you talked about that, I think, in the in the documentary. And um I'm right right now.

00:02:51.06
ben
Yeah.

00:02:52.25
Bill
I'm in northwest Indiana. i lived in Wisconsin for years. Mike's in Cleveland. So we're all kind of up in this up in the same area up here. We're familiar with the Chicago land area.

00:03:02.17
ben
Yeah. Chicago. Get a couple of hot dogs.

00:03:03.42
Bill
Yeah, Chicago.

00:03:04.02
Mike
he

00:03:04.41
ben
Yeah.

00:03:05.18
Bill
But.

00:03:05.24
ben
Yeah.

00:03:07.03
Bill
But yeah, I mean, it's ah at some point I want to get to Austin.

00:03:07.32
ben
here

00:03:09.15
Bill
I've been to a couple of places in Texas, but my understanding is Austin's pretty cool. So, I mean, I know i know we want to we want to hear your story.

00:03:14.01
ben
Yeah.

00:03:16.27
Bill
We definitely want to talk and dig into the documentary. um Again, we're not, as we were talking before, we don't have a huge, you know, I don't know, guidelines and structure, but we do tell stories a certain right way.

00:03:26.35
Bill
Right, Mike?

00:03:27.19
Mike
Yes, we do. Right.

00:03:28.31
Bill
yeah

00:03:28.63
Mike
Well, i having seen the documentary a couple of days ago, um I'm not too concerned about this, but we do do this for all of our guests. um Basically, we know how to get fucked up.

00:03:40.03
Mike
We know how to fuck up our lives, and we know how to fuck up the lives of everybody around us. We know how to do that. What we're interested in is the solution.

00:03:46.07
ben
Yes. Yeah.

00:03:48.57
Mike
a little qualification. you know Tell your story, absolutely. But, again, we hate drunkologs. So... Just keep that in mind.

00:03:57.24
ben
Yeah. I'm with you. I'm with you.

00:03:59.67
Bill
yeah

00:03:59.92
ben
I'm with you. You know, and, and I'll say this about the film, you know, despite, uh, the, the commentary, uh, uh, you know, and the critique that we provide of the treatment, the treatment system in America.

00:04:12.95
Mike
Right.

00:04:13.18
ben
i also i also want to be completely clear and say that the idea of recovery and going to treatment as a catalyst to long-term recovery is something I firmly believe in. you know um Yeah, cool.

00:04:22.63
Mike
Right.

00:04:22.65
Bill
Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:04:23.32
Mike
good We got that.

00:04:23.77
Bill
Yep.

00:04:24.25
Mike
Yeah, I know I got that from the doc.

00:04:24.58
Bill
Yep.

00:04:26.33
Mike
Absolutely. You know, I mean, well, the ending, you know, yeah, right. You know, clearly just not, not that.

00:04:32.77
ben
some people are crazy, man. Some people see it and they're like you're telling people to not go to treatment. I'm like, did were you there?

00:04:36.38
Mike
No, no, God, no. Right.

00:04:38.41
ben
you? You know?

00:04:39.00
Mike
Yeah. Right.

00:04:41.02
ben
So...

00:04:41.05
Bill
Well, yeah, I'll tell you what, if if anyone got that from that documentary, then they they need to, whatever they got to do, they're they're out of their fucking minds. Because I think even somebody, and obviously we went through, well, we went through a sober living facility.

00:04:48.95
ben
Yeah.

00:04:49.08
Mike
right

00:04:54.39
Bill
We can talk about that if you're were interested later.

00:04:56.43
ben
Sure.

00:04:56.55
Bill
We had a great experience. some All this stuff that you talked about in the doc was a complete surprise to me. I'm guessing to you also, Mike, a little bit?

00:05:03.13
ben
Yeah.

00:05:03.29
Mike
Yeah, absolutely.

00:05:03.82
Bill
Okay. I mean, we neither one of us had any idea what any of this shit was going on, but So, um number one, we were surprised by it, but it wasn't, in in my opinion, I don't think you tried to glorify it.

00:05:16.18
Bill
I watch a lot of documentaries like this Netflix stuff. I think of one that comes to mind is the Matthew Perry thing. So, Matthew Perry and that whole thing.

00:05:22.77
ben
Yeah.

00:05:24.27
Bill
I listened to his audio book. We actually talked about it out here. Not the whole thing, but we dissected different things that Mike and I would talk about. And then when Netflix did their whole thing, I'm like, I didn't like that because all they were trying to do was...

00:05:36.15
Bill
um, attack the, the medical side of things and figure out who fucked up and who can we blame and who can we, we punish.

00:05:42.77
ben
Yeah.

00:05:43.16
Bill
And I'm like, okay, do you understand somebody died over here?

00:05:43.42
ben
Yeah.

00:05:46.56
Bill
Right. And this guy, he had a problem and he had a disease.

00:05:47.13
ben
yeah

00:05:49.60
Bill
You're not talking about him. You're trying to figure out who can we pin this on? Well, it was his fucking problem. He became what he became. Yeah. People enabled him, but I'm like, God, just took a different direction. My point, your thing did not do that.

00:06:01.09
Bill
Didn't come across that way at all.

00:06:02.17
ben
Thank you. Thank you. We protected that story a lot. You know, I mean, it it took a long time to make the film. And I think early on, um you know, we were trying to decide how this was all going to work and be a sustainable idea and pay for it, essentially.

00:06:07.48
Bill
Thank you.

00:06:14.04
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:06:16.55
ben
um And the the thought was, OK, well, we should, you know, we should approach, you know, companies or or and investors.

00:06:16.70
Bill
yeah

00:06:23.20
ben
and And we spent a little bit of time doing that. And we quickly realized, though, that Nobody was going to, and probably rightly so in their right mind, give me money to go do what I wanted to do in the way I wanted to do it, which was ah sort of structureless, potentially without too many time constraints.

00:06:39.10
Bill
yeah right

00:06:39.29
Mike
um

00:06:40.43
Bill
Right.

00:06:45.50
ben
And ah I was just going to kind of find my way through this. And so I was like, you know, that doesn't sound like a sure bet.

00:06:50.87
Mike
Right. hmm.

00:06:54.14
ben
ah You know, so, um but also it was just real, real important to us to not have it ah become something that was, you know, a little bit more commercialized.

00:07:05.20
ben
um And so, so yeah, it took longer, but I'm, I'm, I'm happy that that we did that.

00:07:05.59
Mike
he

00:07:11.32
Mike
Right.

00:07:11.51
Bill
Well, in go ahead, Mike.

00:07:11.64
Mike
yeah Yeah. So you're saying, so you're saying that anything good doing is, is worth taking your time with.

00:07:18.33
ben
Yeah, ironically.

00:07:19.23
Mike
Where'd you learn that?

00:07:20.09
ben
yeah I have no idea.

00:07:20.56
Mike
Right.

00:07:21.65
ben
and I mean, you know, it's it's ah it's really interesting. It's the first thing i've I ever made as a sober person.

00:07:30.14
Mike
he

00:07:30.68
ben
um So, you know, i started...

00:07:30.93
Bill
OK.

00:07:33.66
ben
you know, substance use of some sort when I was 16. And then because of alcoholism in the family, not immediately, but once removed.

00:07:36.89
Mike
right

00:07:42.24
ben
So my my father's father, ah you know, and my father was always very vocal about that and being careful.

00:07:44.58
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:07:48.60
ben
And, you know, he didn't drink in the home. I mean, we used to joke and it's probably actually still in their fridge, but he used to get a six pack of Miller MGD. you know, and that would stay in the fridge for, you know, months.

00:08:01.46
ben
um And he'd wanted to time that thing.

00:08:01.59
Mike
Right. Weirdo.

00:08:03.58
ben
And um it was even painful, painful to see back then, you know, I was 13 and I'm like, what on earth are you doing?

00:08:04.34
Mike
Sure. Mm-hmm. weirdo

00:08:08.02
Mike
sure

00:08:10.38
ben
You know? um But yeah, you know, he he tried to set a good example and he certainly did, but ah i found my way to, to alcohol when I was about 24 and I was like, well, this is great.

00:08:19.71
Mike
That's right.

00:08:21.45
ben
Cause it's easier to get and it's everywhere. yeah,

00:08:24.41
Mike
Yeah.

00:08:25.27
ben
Yeah. And so, um, I was off to the races. So yeah, long story short, I, you know, I spent a lot of years making films and working in advertising, but all of it was, you know, under the effects of some substance or another, ah you know, in various quantities.

00:08:36.26
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:08:37.93
ben
So, so this was in a lot of ways to just an opportunity for me to, um, to, to be creative, to see what I could do as ah as a sober person, as somebody with a clear mind.

00:08:48.95
ben
And I didn't want the last thing I wanted, I mean, it's like, you know, I just been through this whole process of having to realize that like, I don't know everything and I'm goingnna have to listen to at least one or two other people in my life to like make good decisions.

00:08:57.09
Mike
Mm.

00:08:59.55
Mike
Uh-huh.

00:09:00.47
ben
I just doing all of that.

00:09:00.83
Mike
Uh-huh.

00:09:01.64
Bill
Right

00:09:02.61
ben
So like on top of it, the last thing I was prepared to do was listen to some bozo or bozos try and tell me how to make this film um for better or worse.

00:09:08.54
Mike
Mm. Right.

00:09:10.07
Bill
right

00:09:11.46
ben
let Let me put it to you that way, you know, but if I was going to fail at this, I kind of wanted to to do that and i'm at my own accord.

00:09:12.02
Mike
Yeah. Mm-hmm. Right.

00:09:19.10
ben
um But also I i wasn't. planning on failing. I just wanted to find the way to do it. So yeah, it it was a real exercise in sort of personal and creative discovery as much as it was an investigation of, you know, something pretty horrifying that I just happened to stumble stumble across, you know.

00:09:25.38
Mike
Right.

00:09:34.34
Mike
Mm-hmm. Wow. Yeah.

00:09:36.54
Bill
Right. Well, and when, when you mentioned all that stuff too, about, I was kind of shaking my head because when, like when we started, when we started this podcast, it was on a whim. We just got together, wanted to get together every Friday night and shoot the shit, kind of have a meeting of sorts, quote unquote.

00:09:50.14
Bill
Um, and then, uh, figured that, uh, Hey, other people are doing it. We can talk into microphones and you don't talk about your shit whatever. And along the way, every once in a while, just based on things that we've read or heard or whatever, And we've we've talked about the same thing, that how nice it is.

00:10:03.36
Bill
i mean, not that we, same thing that you said, granted, we need people in our lives. We we can't run amok with anything that we do, but it is nice to have the freedom.

00:10:10.94
ben
Right.

00:10:14.26
Bill
We're small. We've got a very small audience, a very small-ish type of type of niche niche audience, I guess you would say. you know And there I'm sure there's there's a lot of things.

00:10:21.07
ben
Mm-hmm.

00:10:23.18
Bill
We could probably, you know work if we really wanted to work really hard, get you know get attached to somebody's coattails and do whatever, You know, but then it wouldn't be us, you know.

00:10:31.74
ben
Mm-hmm.

00:10:31.86
Bill
And then some, like you just said, some bozo is going to tell us what to do and how to do it. And we don't really want to do that.

00:10:35.96
ben
Yeah. No, yeah. And I, you know, Bozo, whatever, you know what I'm saying? Like somebody else.

00:10:40.95
Mike
he yeah Absolutely.

00:10:41.02
Bill
Right now, I know. I know what you mean.

00:10:41.78
ben
Yeah. Yeah. It's just like, okay. I mean, sure. Opinions, points of view. But I think that's one of the things I like really ah sort of realized the value of and making this film was the point of view of ah of a of a piece of work, of any piece of work.

00:10:55.55
Mike
hmm.

00:10:57.83
ben
You know what mean?

00:10:58.30
Mike
Right.

00:10:58.52
Bill
Right.

00:10:58.87
ben
Whether it's a podcast, whether it's a film, whether it's a piece of writing. um that's really what what I think makes it unique. And that's often, that fingerprint is often the thing that gets that gets slowly wiped away the more commercial minded something I think becomes, at work or you know what i mean?

00:11:13.95
Mike
Mm-hmm. Right. Mm-hmm.

00:11:15.64
ben
It can possibly get that way.

00:11:16.18
Bill
Right.

00:11:17.12
ben
So so yeah, so it's sort of, it's it's an interesting thing to to protect and explore. You know, the irony to bring it back to to recovery too is I've often liked in the process of making this film, which, you know, took, ah six or seven years to the process of sort of having to get sober again. um and even more specifically, you know, i the only way i finished the film was by asking for help.

00:11:42.07
ben
You know um I took it as far as I could take it on my own as a filmmaker and and an editor and putting this together, but it was really a point when I asked for help and brought in some other editors and some consultants and some people who really just were were craftspeople and and were really good and um elevated the whole film.

00:11:58.09
ben
So, you know, it was interesting to think about it like that too, because the that's something I'm still hard for me to do, you know, for lack of a better word.

00:12:06.81
Mike
You're definitely one of us. Cool.

00:12:08.28
ben
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. yeah you

00:12:11.54
Mike
cool

00:12:11.83
Bill
So, yeah, and I was I was actually going ask you how long it took because you could I mean, you you didn't really have. And I like the fact that you you had ah a sort of a timeline because there were certain things like, oh, last time we talked was X and you were here then or whatever the case was, depending on which individual you were talking to.

00:12:27.54
Bill
So you get this this general idea of time, but not a specific idea of time, um which personally I like that. it's i didn't I didn't necessarily need to be walked through and say, okay, this was March 17th of this date.

00:12:40.50
Bill
And then we walked you know chronologically through here.

00:12:42.84
ben
I have no idea between the characters how things lined up and time lined up, but it didn't matter.

00:12:43.06
Bill
I have no idea between you know the different characters, how how things lined up and time lined up, and it didn't matter. But I was curious at how long it took you to put that together.

00:12:49.82
ben
but i was

00:12:52.10
Bill
So you're saying six or seven years, huh?

00:12:55.74
ben
Sorry. My headphones are playing.

00:12:57.03
Bill
No, that's okay.

00:12:57.14
Mike
a

00:12:57.43
Bill
Yeah, we're getting we're getting the we're getting a little...

00:12:58.10
ben
My headphones are playing. Yeah, they're playing loosey goosey with me again. Hang on a second.

00:13:02.52
Mike
All

00:13:04.22
Bill
No,

00:13:06.30
Mike
right.

00:13:07.80
ben
There we go.

00:13:08.63
Mike
There we go.

00:13:08.73
ben
um Yeah, six or seven years. Sorry about that. um

00:13:11.57
Bill
that's okay.

00:13:11.60
Mike
worries.

00:13:12.34
ben
So, you know, I got sober in 2018 in Chicago and um i had a great experience. I went to a detox facility that was attached to a hospital ah in in the city and then stepped down to a PHP program, like a day program.

00:13:22.54
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:13:27.67
ben
Partial hospitalization is called it was right sort of in the same complex is that medical facility. You know, that stepped down to like a half day program IOP and then finally I was sort of on my own and, you know, after detox I moved into a sober home while I did all of these these other programs.

00:13:43.83
ben
um And, you know, that was owned by a guy who would become my sponsor, his sponsor, right?

00:13:44.30
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:13:44.39
Bill
Right.

00:13:49.27
ben
happened to own a sober home.

00:13:49.76
Mike
Okay.

00:13:50.43
ben
So I lived there, had a fantastic experience.

00:13:50.86
Mike
Yeah.

00:13:52.67
ben
Like these, these it was him and another partner who owned sober homes. And they were kind of old school 12 step guys, the kind of guys who like sat in the back of the room grumpy and the the newcomers were not sure if they should talk to him or not.

00:13:59.38
Mike
Mm-hmm. We know them well.

00:14:04.35
ben
Yeah. Yeah, they're great. And um I still talk to both of them, but they were they were great guys.

00:14:09.31
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:14:10.22
ben
And that place was sort of no nonsense. Like we had some chores. ah There were five or six other dudes.

00:14:13.77
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:14:16.09
ben
Just, you know, don't be loud, clean up your shit and do your chores.

00:14:18.92
Mike
Yeah. Yeah.

00:14:20.25
ben
And that was kind of it, you know?

00:14:20.65
Mike
Yep. Yeah.

00:14:22.39
ben
and um And that was it. and And so then, you know, a few months into this whole process, and I heard a story from a friend who had gotten sober in Florida and mentioned this idea of of recruiting.

00:14:34.89
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:14:34.97
ben
And um he you know he didn't really say it too much about it. he He mentioned a few other details that became interesting later, like call centers and sort of things that I was able to paint this bigger picture about.

00:14:44.09
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:14:46.81
ben
But this whole idea of recruiting, i didn't i didn't get it you know and and i at first.

00:14:50.58
Mike
Right.

00:14:51.72
ben
And I had gotten sober with my insurance. um And it wasn't until I did a little bit of digging that I was like, oh, this is you know this is sort of all based on insurance. It's very transactional.

00:15:02.94
Mike
hmm.

00:15:03.13
ben
um and And again, for for folks who don't know, i didn't know anything about you know rehab before I needed it.

00:15:03.38
Mike
Mm

00:15:09.94
ben
I had no idea what it entails or how expensive it was. It's generally expensive.

00:15:13.09
Mike
hmm.

00:15:13.32
Bill
Yeah,

00:15:14.38
ben
And you know if you have private insurance or Medicaid in most cases, it's covered.

00:15:14.95
Mike
Sure.

00:15:20.28
ben
and And that process, those reimbursements for for addiction treatment and the variety of of ah you know services they offer surrounding it, it's very lucrative.

00:15:20.79
Mike
Right.

00:15:30.68
ben
you know, and, and it's happening again.

00:15:31.20
Mike
Mm hmm.

00:15:35.70
ben
Um, I'm definitely not going to move now.

00:15:35.92
Mike
Yeah. Right.

00:15:39.70
Bill
yeah it's funny.

00:15:40.31
ben
And, um, it's incredibly lucrative, you know, just incredibly lucrative.

00:15:40.42
Bill
Yeah, we could hear we could hear the echo a little bit.

00:15:43.19
Mike
right

00:15:43.99
ben
And so, uh, this whole process has developed where people were being recruited into treatment centers, you know, treatment centers were basically paying for their clients. So they would, you know, hire recovering addicts to go into 12 step meetings, you know, um and bring people back to a sober home or a treatment facility for a kickback, you know, and that was, that was the initial story that I heard and, and and what sort of captivated me at first, but it was a rabbit hole that I fell down, you know,

00:16:05.49
Mike
Right.

00:16:14.52
Mike
Yeah, clearly.

00:16:17.62
Mike
Right. I mean, I, you know, ah i <unk>m I'm thankful that I was total bottom fucking drunk and, and, uh, had no insurance.

00:16:25.83
ben
Corey.

00:16:26.44
Mike
And so none of that was an option to me. Cause there was one point in the documentary I'm watching, um, you know, the, the young guy that you followed, quite a lot. What was his name again?

00:16:37.88
ben
yeah corey

00:16:39.69
Mike
cory that's it i knew it started with a c i couldn't remember anyway right you're cory i'm watching and i'm watching him do all this stuff and my alcoholic brain is going wow man i'm glad i didn't know about that because that looks like you know that yeah that looks like i could have done that for shit 10 years man and i'd have been dead um had i done that because the

00:16:40.37
Bill
Yep.

00:16:58.68
ben
Yeah. Right.

00:17:02.97
Mike
the way that I drink and used, um you know, if they would have been handing me money and I was going out recruiting, I mean, I would have been great at it for a while and then I'd been dead.

00:17:10.74
ben
Yeah.

00:17:11.80
Mike
Yeah.

00:17:12.80
ben
Yep.

00:17:13.08
Mike
yeah But I mean, Jesus, I had no idea that any of that existed because, you know, I was, I was ah um like I said, low bottom and um you know, I was County beds and I was Salvation Army.

00:17:18.43
ben
It's.

00:17:26.67
Mike
And then, you know, and then the place we went into that where Bill and I met, and we got sober,

00:17:31.79
ben
Yeah. Yeah.

00:17:33.05
Mike
Go ahead.

00:17:33.91
ben
Yeah.

00:17:35.74
Mike
Yeah, where Bill and I got sober, it was, again, you know no money. no not You walked in and they took you. um And then you know once you went three-quarter, you started paying rent and it was it was all privately funded.

00:17:41.89
Bill
Right.

00:17:48.90
Mike
you know We do fundraisers. They still are. um We do fundraisers for them and stuff. And it's you know that's how that works. None of this...

00:17:55.80
ben
yeah

00:17:56.38
Mike
Corporate, no insurance, no government, no, yeah, right.

00:17:56.82
ben
yeah Yep. Yep.

00:18:01.10
Mike
So I was just blown away by this whole system that's out there.

00:18:01.24
ben
Yeah.

00:18:06.14
ben
Yeah. It's incredible. You know, what's interesting is one of the brokers in the film, aj actually got sober at a Salvation Army.

00:18:13.40
Bill
Mm-hmm.

00:18:13.46
ben
So like, that's what first drew me to him is actually, i wasn't, it it it was, yes, what he was doing, but also, you know, he had written a blog and I was reading some of his writing and, and you know, his recovery was very legitimate to me.

00:18:15.93
Mike
Right.

00:18:24.62
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:18:27.48
Mike
Right.

00:18:28.09
ben
Like he had really good thoughts. It wasn't bullshit. So I was really confused. I'm like, how does this person end up doing this thing?

00:18:32.31
Mike
m

00:18:34.61
ben
You know, and it's a slippery slope.

00:18:34.81
Mike
Right. Right.

00:18:37.21
ben
It starts by thinking you you know, he was recruited as well. Right. So someone saw the potential in him as a speaker and as a salesman and was like, okay, well, let's get him to do our bidding for us.

00:18:41.50
Mike
Sure.

00:18:48.61
ben
um And so it's very, you know, no one's essentially safe. I wanted to go back, though, to what you said about Corey and how you said, you know, that looked pretty fun.

00:18:53.61
Mike
Mm hmm.

00:18:57.62
ben
And I thought the same thing.

00:18:57.88
Mike
Yeah, right.

00:18:59.10
ben
I'm like, man, if I were 25, like I would have been all for this.

00:18:59.86
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:19:02.06
ben
And what's really.

00:19:02.46
Mike
Yeah, absolutely. you know, flying around, getting paid, you know, and, and and and you know, you in your twisted fucking head, you're going, well, I'm helping people.

00:19:05.08
ben
Yeah. Yep.

00:19:12.32
Mike
I'm getting them into recovery.

00:19:12.47
ben
Yeah, I'm exactly, this is recovery.

00:19:14.87
Mike
Yeah.

00:19:15.86
ben
I'm, I'm working, I'm doing the thing. And it's really interesting that the scams sort of one of the genius aspects of the whole thing it is its ability to sort of allow hustle culture to like continue in this recovery world, you know, and, and that really is a great sort of recruitment tool or, and or process of indoctrination, depending on how you want to look at it, you know?

00:19:27.61
Mike
Right.

00:19:28.90
Bill
Right.

00:19:36.54
Mike
he Right. Yeah.

00:19:39.06
ben
Um,

00:19:39.18
Mike
Indoctrination. I mean, it's it's almost, you know, it's you're selling recovery almost like you're you're selling prostitution.

00:19:47.83
ben
Yeah, yeah. No, and in ah in a way, because, you know, Corey calls, you know, 1-800 number thinking he's going to get into treatment, and they saw the potential in him right away.

00:19:48.60
Mike
Yeah. Right.

00:19:56.19
ben
i mean, it didn't take six months before they were sending him around, you know?

00:19:56.66
Mike
Right.

00:19:59.67
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:19:59.84
Bill
Right.

00:20:00.50
ben
um give me give me what give me one Give me one second.

00:20:00.60
Bill
Well, and i and I thought that this, this, okay, go ahead. Yeah.

00:20:04.51
ben
I'm going to fix this problem once and for all.

00:20:06.33
Mike
Okay.

00:20:06.68
ben
Okay. Yeah, hopefully we won't disconnect if he disconnects his microphone.

00:20:08.85
Bill
and Hopefully we won't, uh, we won't disconnect. If he, uh, he disconnects his microphone, we might, we might lose him, but that's okay.

00:20:13.40
ben
We might lose him. That's okay.

00:20:16.38
Bill
We'll come back.

00:20:16.76
ben
We'll come back.

00:20:16.92
Bill
Yeah.

00:20:17.76
Mike
We will. We have before. Nope.

00:20:20.85
Bill
yeah

00:20:22.18
ben
I don't think you'll, I didn't disconnect my mic. How's that?

00:20:25.46
Bill
No, no, no, that's fine.

00:20:25.74
ben
No, no, no, that's fine.

00:20:26.30
Bill
That's fine. We had, to do you know, Tom, you know who crew while Chris Farley is, right?

00:20:27.66
ben
Yeah. Oh, wow.

00:20:31.74
ben
Yeah.

00:20:32.22
Bill
The comedian? Yeah, we had his brother Tom on because Tom's sober. Yeah, it was a great conversation. But about this time in in the, man maybe 30 minutes in, all of a sudden, that just that the recording shuts down.

00:20:43.02
Bill
We're like, what the hell happened? Tom's like, um I unplugged my microphone. Yeah.

00:20:46.97
Mike
he

00:20:47.57
Bill
You know, something didn't sound right. So I had plugged it. We're like, oh, well, I guess that's what happened. So it just it literally shuts down the entire podcast. as If some one of the guests unplugs, ah we were able to get back in. It wasn't a big deal.

00:20:57.94
Bill
Actually, it was a nice learning experience for us.

00:21:00.12
Mike
Yes.

00:21:00.95
Bill
But um but yes, we had one of the one of the time that happened, too, didn't it I think I can't remember, but.

00:21:05.05
Mike
i don't know.

00:21:06.26
ben
Well, fortunately...

00:21:06.30
Bill
I don't know. We've, we've had, we've had our moments. And the thing of it is, like i said, we, we don't edit because this is, this is all the fun stuff, you know, when we can't, we can't get stuff right.

00:21:12.70
Mike
Yeah, exactly.

00:21:12.95
ben
Yeah.

00:21:13.21
Mike
Exactly.

00:21:15.24
Bill
And again, I watch. Okay. So in Micah, this is something I'll allow bring. I was probably to bring this up, but we had talked to a couple of times, but so I'm listening to um everyone knows who Bradley Cooper is.

00:21:26.95
Bill
And i forget what, what podcast he was on, but um first of all, sober and whatever.

00:21:29.62
ben
Mm-hmm.

00:21:31.39
Bill
I mean, I've heard his story and it's an interesting story in and of itself, But he's talking back and forth and how he consumes content. And he does. He'll sit down sometimes, you know, and watch a podcast.

00:21:42.72
Bill
You know, but he said that when he when he does it, he said he wants to sit down because he's interested in in seeing the interaction between the two or three individuals. But he's like, I'll sit down at night and and I'll watch a podcast, which Mike and I are know we don't we don't do video.

00:21:50.89
ben
Yeah.

00:21:55.72
Bill
We'd ever do. We're not into that sort of thing. Um, but then he said, he goes, but he goes, then he goes, these audio podcasts that, that edit, he goes, I don't like that. He goes, I can tell when they edit, I can tell when they chop things.

00:22:07.62
Bill
He goes, it doesn't sound natural.

00:22:07.97
ben
Yeah.

00:22:08.90
Bill
goes, let the conversation flow, you know? And I'm like, yeah, damn it. Because that's what mike that's how Mike and I decided.

00:22:14.52
ben
Yeah.

00:22:16.18
Bill
First of all, we didn't really know what we were doing when we started this whole thing.

00:22:19.13
Mike
Ha ha.

00:22:19.38
Bill
um Still barely do.

00:22:19.83
ben
Yeah.

00:22:21.02
Bill
um you know but But then to begin with, it's kind of like, i I don't know.

00:22:21.37
ben
Yeah. Yeah.

00:22:25.19
Bill
It was too hard for me to figure out how to edit. Then I'm like, I don't really need to edit anything. We used to have to shave a little bit off the front and back, but now that's we've got that solved. And then the only thing that we need to do is that the reason I even cut the episode to begin with was we load everything into Spotify and that that's our main hub to to send it out to everyone.

00:22:34.42
ben
yeah

00:22:44.34
ben
yeah yeah

00:22:45.78
Bill
And they wouldn't accept a large file. So I had to cut it in half. That's the only reason we started doing a promo in the middle and cutting it in half is because they wouldn't they wouldn't do it So we're like, fuck it.

00:22:51.96
ben
Yeah, but that's still great. Yeah.

00:22:55.38
Bill
We're not going to edit anything, you know, and now we're now we're kind of proud of it.

00:22:56.75
ben
Yeah. 30, 40 minutes at a time, though. That's a great chunk. You know?

00:23:01.56
Bill
Yeah, it is.

00:23:02.14
ben
Yeah.

00:23:02.24
Bill
It actually is.

00:23:02.58
ben
Yeah.

00:23:03.04
Bill
But so but, you know I was actually thinking that the same the same type of thing that that Mike was thinking at at the time that specifically Corey, because all the 30, 40 some places he'd been in and I can get this and I can give that these money out and money.

00:23:03.47
ben
Yeah.

00:23:15.52
Bill
And me you can tell the guy, I mean, he's he's got problems and he's not well, he's not necessarily healthy all the time, clearly. But I'm like, God damn, you know, in the same thing, like you said, Mike, I mean, how long if if I would have been given that and both of us went in just so you know, Ben, in our early 40s at that time, I was 41.

00:23:22.30
ben
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

00:23:33.04
Bill
Mike was 43. If either one of us would have been given that option, even at that time, I mean, I would have I would have done that wholeheartedly.

00:23:34.33
ben
yeah

00:23:39.55
Bill
Right. Wouldn't you, Mike?

00:23:40.50
Mike
Yeah, oh, absolutely.

00:23:41.30
ben
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I, I'm with you. I got sober at 41. So it was later for me and and less of an issue.

00:23:46.23
Mike
Right.

00:23:47.58
ben
And, um, you know, just so everybody's clear without giving too much away the film, the film shuffle follows, uh, three individuals who are trapped in a cycle of repetitive treatment because of their insurance.

00:23:58.88
Mike
Right.

00:23:59.06
ben
Um, and we talk about that and all sorts of, uh, policy issues and reasons and causes behind that. We follow the money.

00:24:05.91
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:24:06.50
ben
So that's in short what it's what it's about. It's it's a sort of a horrific bait and switch type of type of story.

00:24:11.86
Mike
Yes.

00:24:13.46
ben
um But yeah, you know i'm I'm with you. I mean, that was part of the the horror when I first heard this. i was like, my God, like if i'd have been you know if I'd have been into this.

00:24:23.50
ben
because Because there's so much money involved, it's worth it to actually pay these struggling these kids struggling with addiction to to relapse. I mean, that's the sort that's the worst of it, you know kind of.

00:24:31.65
Mike
Yeah.

00:24:31.78
Bill
Right.

00:24:33.53
Mike
Yes.

00:24:34.26
ben
It falls that far downhill. um and and And so it's just, it's pretty awful, you know? And um it's nice though to like try and have a light chat about it because it is so dark.

00:24:46.71
ben
I mean, we tried to we tried to add some levity to the film, you know, because obviously subject matter and then the nature of exploitation and all that leads for, you know, pretty.

00:24:50.92
Mike
Mm hmm.

00:24:56.42
Mike
Oh, absolutely. I mean, you know, i I was sitting there watching it and I'm like, god damn, this is horrible.

00:24:57.54
ben
Yeah.

00:25:01.26
Mike
I mean, yeah, it was, there was, there you know, about a half hour in, I was getting really fucking bummed out.

00:25:04.25
ben
Yeah.

00:25:07.74
Mike
I'll tell you the truth.

00:25:07.86
ben
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:25:08.78
Mike
um You know, but I mean, yeah. Yeah.

00:25:12.14
ben
It's definitely a what the fuck, you know what i mean?

00:25:14.04
Mike
yeah

00:25:14.26
ben
Like you you you just, that was my first thought and um it's still...

00:25:14.52
Bill
Oh, yeah, yeah.

00:25:18.17
Mike
So how did you, how did you, so okay, you you said you stumbled, it like, in the rooms, you in the rooms, somebody you saw approached, or how?

00:25:26.74
ben
No, it was after a meeting and I just had a friend and we had coffee and he had gotten sober and in Florida. And so he, he, he just tells me about it and I said, okay.

00:25:32.47
Mike
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay.

00:25:34.70
ben
And then, uh, you know, I did some research and the research was all great and everything, but it, it kind of, uh, I had a problem getting on the inside of the issue.

00:25:45.38
ben
you know it was sort of all told at arm's length.

00:25:45.91
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:25:47.26
ben
and um Then I started digging around on Facebook, and I found all of these clowns offering help to people and treatment. I mean, real insane stuff. Like, how's my new haircut?

00:25:57.50
Mike
Right.

00:25:59.17
ben
Message me for addiction help. Or preying on moms by posting a bunch of pictures of his dog. You know what i'm saying?

00:26:05.46
Bill
Oh.

00:26:05.61
Mike
Huh.

00:26:05.96
ben
Like, hey, I'm cute. I'm safe. like I'll help your kids. It's just... And I was living in a sober home at the time, right? So I'd like come home, I'm tired, I'm scrolling my iPad and I'm like, look at these idiots, you know, and what, where are they sending people and how does this all work?

00:26:13.27
Mike
Right.

00:26:19.67
Mike
Yeah. Yeah.

00:26:20.41
ben
And so, you know, they're bragging about how much good they're doing. And so I started messaging on them and they wouldn't talk to me.

00:26:26.49
Bill
and

00:26:27.10
ben
which I thought was weird. Like if you're doing great work and you're bragging about it and then someone, you know, but anyway, so then I just took a different approach and I started looking for help myself in some groups.

00:26:30.46
Mike
Yeah, right.

00:26:38.87
ben
And, you know, I got fished out by a few brokers and started talking to them. And um I was kind of building up my confidence because I really didn't, I'd never done something like this before. And I didn't know how to like gaining someone's trust with that.

00:26:48.25
Mike
Right.

00:26:50.38
ben
Like the line between deceiving someone at first and being, I don't know, it was weird.

00:26:55.45
Mike
Right.

00:26:56.02
ben
And I'd done enough research. I did some Facebook homework, came up with this person. And this is this person was AJ. And I read some, some things that he had written about recovery. And I was just really sort of taken with this ah Jekyll and Hyde type person who had written some really beautiful words and some ideas and, but had also potentially done maybe some questionable things though.

00:27:13.11
Mike
Mm hmm. Right.

00:27:20.48
ben
I didn't know that to be true. So we, we started a text relationship and you know, it was arm's length and it just happened to be around the same time I took my first trip to South Florida.

00:27:31.60
ben
And this was very strange. He didn't know where I was. No one really knew where I was going.

00:27:35.35
Mike
Mm hmm.

00:27:35.95
ben
I told my sponsor and maybe the the manager at the sober house. But I hadn't been in South Florida for more than 24 hours. And he sends me a text and he just says, Hey, are you in South Florida?

00:27:47.51
ben
Cause people, people know you're there.

00:27:49.90
Mike
Hmm.

00:27:49.98
ben
So, you know, and um I was like, Oh, well that's, you know, that's interesting.

00:27:57.30
Mike
Yeah.

00:27:57.71
ben
So I got on the phone.

00:27:58.46
Bill
It's creepy.

00:27:58.95
ben
Yeah. Real creepy. Right. So I got on the phone with him and, and, you know, we, we spoke off the record for about an hour and and he just told me everything. And you know,

00:28:07.17
Mike
Hmm.

00:28:09.27
ben
Part of the reason that I kind of launched into this was because I i had this like initial really bad feeling. And it's like I'm not good with math or any of those things or economics, but...

00:28:16.21
Mike
Right.

00:28:20.47
ben
the it was It was almost as simple as like the size of the problem, meaning the number of of struggling humans in this country, and and this idea of this like now credit card, essentially, this transactional thing.

00:28:30.16
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:28:35.42
Mike
Yeah.

00:28:36.36
Bill
Right.

00:28:36.78
ben
And that was enough for me to go, oh, holy shit, like who's not going to want it on this?

00:28:44.79
Mike
Right.

00:28:44.91
ben
And how bad is this?

00:28:45.10
Bill
Right.

00:28:47.63
ben
And so part of it was just wanting to see, you know, if if some of the worst things I thought about it might be true. And actually, those weren't hard to find. those Those were the quickest things to come um were the really dark things.

00:28:58.33
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:29:00.14
ben
And the things that had to be looked past, I think, because those things would overshadow a larger, more necessary conversation, you know, about actually creating some change and some policies. But, you know, for the fun of it, like, why wouldn't, you know, organized crime be involved in this?

00:29:14.77
ben
Think about the other industries they're involved in.

00:29:15.25
Mike
Right? Okay.

00:29:17.07
ben
it's all like underbelly ish type stuff right so of course this is lucrative it's not regulated um so early on in the process you know it wasn't i didn't uncover this but i came across you know through some journalists like for example um you know some russian organized crime that was involved in a testing a urine testing lab in florida because urine testing is incredibly lucrative right

00:29:17.19
Bill
Right.

00:29:34.59
Mike
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

00:29:40.76
ben
um or for example, ah pension fund in, forget, New Mexico, that was also tied up in some some urine testing labs. So there were like these bizarre, far-reaching stories.

00:29:52.18
ben
And you know what I wanted to do was was to take it off Facebook because it was easy to look at Facebook and see all these connections and but I wanted to see what it was like in the, in the real world. And so that's when these trips to Florida started and and just trying to sort of insert myself around the areas and meet people.

00:30:08.45
ben
Cause these were my people. Like it wasn't hard, wasn't hard to blend.

00:30:10.68
Mike
Right.

00:30:12.27
ben
You know what I mean?

00:30:12.86
Mike
Right. Yeah.

00:30:13.99
ben
And when they saw a camera, most of them were like, I'm going to be on Netflix, bro.

00:30:18.32
Mike
Right.

00:30:18.39
ben
And was like, now no, no, not going to happen.

00:30:18.94
Mike
Right.

00:30:19.22
Bill
hey

00:30:19.22
Mike
Right. Mm-hmm. right

00:30:21.88
ben
um So there was a fair amount of, of, finding um legitimate connections with people. You know what i mean? And that was also like something that was new to me because that wasn't a specialty of mine throughout 15 to 20 years of using substances all the time, you know?

00:30:37.63
ben
So um being available also just, you know, being willing to meet others where they're at, if they're in a different place than you um was new for me. um And, and also just, know, you know, being reminded of the power of feeling heard, you know, because I think immediately when they saw the camera and they realized like it was just me, like there wasn't a crew or anything like that.

00:30:53.94
Mike
Right.

00:31:01.11
Mike
Right.

00:31:01.21
ben
it was just me and there's a camera. and ah in shitty rental car and they were like, you you literally are down here because you give a shit what's happening to us. And I was like, I do.

00:31:10.65
Mike
Yeah.

00:31:12.12
ben
i And I think other people will if they know.

00:31:12.38
Mike
Right.

00:31:14.78
ben
No one knows.

00:31:14.94
Mike
Yeah.

00:31:15.62
ben
you know no one Because no one would imagine that anyone would, you know.

00:31:17.94
Mike
Right.

00:31:18.95
Bill
Right.

00:31:20.02
ben
So yeah, so that's sort of the impetus is like, I want to make as much noise as I can. There's some really incredible people that we've met all across this country that are doing work to make change and to to make treatment safer and and to make this less of ah of a joke at times. You know, just so people listening can can sort of understand this in context, there are more substance abuse treatment centers in the United States than there are McDonald's restaurants.

00:31:42.94
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:31:43.35
Bill
Is it really?

00:31:43.65
ben
But there are by 2000.

00:31:43.83
Bill
Well.

00:31:45.56
ben
So there are 15,000 plus private substance abuse treatment centers and about 13,000 plus McDonald's.

00:31:45.91
Mike
Wow.

00:31:46.30
Bill
yeah

00:31:51.70
ben
um Now, as far as I know, tell me if I'm wrong. I don't know anybody that experiences a barrier to McDonald's. Do you?

00:31:59.13
Bill
Right, right.

00:31:59.29
Mike
Right. No?

00:32:00.30
ben
No, all right.

00:32:00.63
Mike
Right. Mm-hmm.

00:32:01.37
ben
They're there. Everybody has access. How there are how there are more the treatments that are at McDonald's and people you know don't have access, still a small amount, 15 maybe percent at best.

00:32:03.16
Mike
right

00:32:09.05
Mike
if he

00:32:11.05
ben
So there's a whole ah you know financial conversation we could have there, a whole sort of metaphor that we could continue on you know what is McDonald's and is that what we're saying that treatment has become.

00:32:22.40
ben
um I think the bar is low.

00:32:22.51
Mike
Mmm.

00:32:24.79
ben
you know i think it's easy I think it's easy for the bar to be low for this population.

00:32:25.71
Bill
Right.

00:32:28.15
ben
I think stigma, you know as as far as we've come, I think there's still a lot of shame around it. And so um it's easy.

00:32:33.53
Mike
Sure.

00:32:34.78
Bill
Well, so so here's kind of the the the weird part too.

00:32:35.14
ben
Go ahead. did.

00:32:37.89
Bill
And the thing that kind of blew my mind is that, so when I got sober or when I was being, let's say being taken to to get sober, um I did, i had I had a job barely, but I had insurance.

00:32:41.67
ben
had job there

00:32:44.63
Mike
simson

00:32:46.09
ben
when had And sister family were there with all

00:32:49.90
Bill
And um our sister and our family, where they're looking all over to place, he took me to a hospital for detox. So that was obviously an insurance thing. But then after the fact, calling around in different parts of the country, because we've got family in different areas.

00:32:58.24
ben
Yeah.

00:33:04.10
Bill
And Florida was one of them. Boston area was one. We've got cousins. Cleveland, Chicago, northern Wisconsin, I was in.

00:33:08.21
ben
Yeah. Yeah.

00:33:09.96
Bill
in Wisconsin at the time, all of these rehab facilities and 28 day programs, which and i'm I'm glad that they that they realize that I I wasn't going to stick around for a 28 day program and or I would have done that and been gone.

00:33:23.99
Bill
So they found the other option, which ended up being a Cleveland at the Keating Center. But all these things were the the amount of money. that it was going to cost just to be in there for 28 days. And I don't remember.

00:33:34.06
Bill
I mean, this is, we've been sober coming up on 16 years, but I'm thinking 28 days was, it was 10 grand. It was 15 grand. It was 20 grand. It was a lot, you know?

00:33:41.43
ben
Yeah. Oh, yeah.

00:33:42.34
Bill
um

00:33:42.37
ben
I think it could easily be 30 grand these days.

00:33:44.63
Bill
Well, and to your point too, and then all these, all these ancillary things, all this, this spider web of other, other services, which, I mean, I just, not to get into any detail about it, but I just had a medical thing over the last couple of months.

00:33:44.89
ben
You know?

00:33:57.39
Bill
And there's a point where you go into facility, you have this thing done, But then all the different things that I'm looking at my insurance and all the things that are being billed for and whatever, you know, again, all these different things, I get it all.

00:34:06.44
ben
Yeah.

00:34:07.96
Bill
I understand it. And, you know, the hospitals these days now, they're they're literally, it's almost like when you go to the grocery store and you're scanning groceries, they have a scanner.

00:34:09.05
ben
Yeah.

00:34:17.11
Bill
They come up with this hand scanner. And every time, every time they give you something, you've got a wrist, you got a, you know, basically a code on your wrist and they're scanning you, you know, so they know how to bill you.

00:34:21.94
ben
Yeah. Yeah.

00:34:26.11
Bill
um But, you

00:34:26.20
ben
yeah

00:34:27.64
Bill
But all said and done, there's some of these things where thousands of dollars and the reimbursement was relatively small, where it sounds like, and correct me if I'm wrong, and that this is I do have a point that I'm leaning into here, is that I'm looking at my own situation, supposed thousands of dollars that was billed versus what was reimbursed, versus on on your end, you take one person, and what sounds like the The thousands and thousands that are billed, a lot of it, a higher percentage is getting reimbursed.

00:34:54.22
Bill
Am I wrong with that? Or is it, do you know what percentage is getting reimbursed?

00:34:56.60
ben
you You know, that's a fantastic question, and I don't. I would agree with you, though, on that that these treatment centers and billing entities take their highest shot and that that the whoever's paying the bill, because it's not always the insurance company, and we can get into that because that's a fascinating conversation.

00:35:14.10
Bill
ah

00:35:14.78
ben
I mean, tell you, I learned some shit here that I was like, you got to be kidding me. Like, you know, like just anyway, sorry. um That blew my mind and I lost my train of thought.

00:35:26.62
ben
What was I saying?

00:35:27.11
Bill
No, that's okay. The reimbursements, how much might be reimbursed?

00:35:29.69
ben
Oh, yeah, it's definitely not the full amount. You know, it's definitely not what they're asking for. But get this. So there's this whole group of companies that have developed called rebilling companies. In fact, one of them's name is Correct-A-Bill.

00:35:39.30
Bill
Sure.

00:35:39.33
Mike
Mm.

00:35:42.30
Bill
and

00:35:42.49
ben
which they're not shy about this. um But, you know, they'll go back. Let's say, you know, they're billing lab tests at, at you know, $5,000 a pop and the insurance company ends up paying them, you know, $1,600 a pop, right?

00:35:57.98
Bill
Right.

00:35:58.06
ben
they'll go They'll go back with different billing codes for those lab tests. So instead of it, and you know, and then they'll they'll try and make up that difference, you know?

00:36:01.66
Bill
Well, sure.

00:36:05.85
Bill
Right.

00:36:05.91
ben
Um, so that's a pretty common practice to try and get as much as they can. But yeah, you're right. Um, and it's the same, it's, it's the same financial dangling carrot. You know These like Corey in the film talks about being paid to get kids and off the street.

00:36:17.59
ben
And he talks about, I can make up to 15,000 a person.

00:36:18.13
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:36:20.19
ben
Yeah. He's never getting paid that money though. They dangle that.

00:36:23.30
Mike
Right.

00:36:23.78
ben
That's the worst part. Like he's lucky if he gets paid half that, you know,

00:36:25.08
Mike
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

00:36:26.86
Bill
Right. But even half that, that's that's just fucking, that's five grand, three grand?

00:36:27.45
ben
ah Well, no.

00:36:28.44
Mike
Don't teach it.

00:36:28.76
ben
Yeah.

00:36:29.16
Mike
Seven grand?

00:36:29.28
ben
Yeah. No, it's still getting paid at all.

00:36:30.36
Mike
Fuck yeah.

00:36:31.96
ben
Yeah. No, totally.

00:36:32.71
Bill
I mean, yes.

00:36:33.88
ben
Totally. No, I'm 100% with you. But it's like ah there's always this this this promise that's not being kept, whether it's on that side or the actual side of, you know, trying to get better, you know

00:36:41.91
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:36:45.92
Bill
Right.

00:36:45.94
Mike
Right.

00:36:47.66
Bill
It just, it seriously, it just blew my mind. because And then on top of that, so, and we've always heard, and we've had specific, Mike and I have had specific conversations about this, if not just between yeah you and I, Mike, maybe with other other guests on here about relapse, you know, doesn't have to be a part of recovery, but you hear that relapse is part of the, you know, it's part of the thing and whatever.

00:36:55.83
ben
Yeah. You know. Yeah.

00:37:01.09
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:37:02.97
ben
yeah you know

00:37:06.33
Bill
And in this kind of, it literally, flipped the entire script around and said, no, no, not only is relapse part of the, part of the recovery in these, in these people's minds that are, that are exploiting these individuals.

00:37:19.70
Bill
Cause that's what it is. It's not only part of it is, that's the, that's the game. They need people to relapse in order to, cause it, it basically what, the way that it was explained in a way you explained it was it, it literally like restarts the clock.

00:37:26.26
ben
Yeah. Yeah.

00:37:34.17
ben
yeah

00:37:34.29
Bill
I'm like, are you fucking kidding me?

00:37:36.28
ben
Yeah. I mean, think about that thing, you know, because, you know, an insurance will bill in a cycle, right?

00:37:37.52
Bill
Yeah.

00:37:40.76
ben
And that cycle will run out.

00:37:41.11
Bill
Right. Now I get it. Yeah.

00:37:42.32
ben
So 30, 60, 90 days, whatever they want to stop paying. Well, what, what restarts it? A relapse. The thing that someone's struggling would perhaps most naturally do, right?

00:37:48.11
Mike
Right.

00:37:51.73
Mike
Right.

00:37:52.49
ben
Let's hinge that all on that. But again, you get you get, if you stop thinking of the fraud of it, you get the idea behind it, which is that they're trying to make it available for someone who would relapse to get back into treatment because they would, you know, I get it.

00:38:05.51
Bill
Right.

00:38:05.94
Mike
see

00:38:06.87
ben
I get the good intention behind it. um You know, I got to tell you personally, like the whole relapse is part of recovery.

00:38:09.02
Mike
right

00:38:13.55
ben
Like i I understand that on a conscious level. You know what i mean? um And and I but I remember hearing in treatment, like within the first three to five days of being in detox, that line.

00:38:26.84
ben
And I'm like, what are, and this is before any, of i knew anything about what we're talking here about the film.

00:38:26.88
Bill
Right.

00:38:26.91
Mike
Right.

00:38:27.00
Bill
Right.

00:38:31.40
ben
This was just me, like, you know, dry after 15 years.

00:38:35.00
Mike
Yeah.

00:38:35.44
ben
And I was like, what are you doing?

00:38:37.24
Mike
Yeah.

00:38:37.66
ben
We just got here and you're already like saying this is inevitable.

00:38:37.98
Mike
is

00:38:41.22
ben
I mean, there was,

00:38:41.62
Mike
Yeah, you're giving me a fucking loophole already.

00:38:43.13
ben
yeah Yeah, yeah, I don't need that. And so i was that that that already sort of perked my ears up. And then obviously, you know, with this. um And, you know, look, that's a whole thing with with the narrative around addiction.

00:38:56.15
ben
and And I think some of the falsehoods that are included there, you know, which is that relapse has to be a part of recovery, you know, which and I think one of the genius parts of the scam is that or I don't want to call it a scam because that's almost like belies what it actually is.

00:39:11.54
ben
this system, right?

00:39:11.65
Mike
hmm yes right yes

00:39:13.30
ben
This, this system of unethical and fraudulent care, let's call it that, you know?

00:39:15.11
Bill
Okay.

00:39:18.41
ben
Yeah. it it um Yeah. And again,

00:39:22.26
Mike
Right. Well, I mean, you know, clearly in the documentary, it's, you know, the the highest levels of government are involved in this nonsense.

00:39:26.13
ben
you know,

00:39:30.90
ben
yeah yeah yeah and again

00:39:32.02
Mike
That one, you know, that, I mean, i i saw it, you were talking about, you know, the doctor and I, again, not spoiling anything, but you know, again, very high level of government.

00:39:34.17
ben
you know Yeah.

00:39:41.91
Mike
And you're talking about this guy and I'm kind of like almost, you know, going Oh, look at him. He's doing good stuff. He's kind of saying the right things. And, and then, and then you dropped and I, I literally laughed out loud.

00:39:54.78
Mike
I think it was the only time I laughed out loud during the documentary is when, When you said, you know, what he was on the board of, and I went, oh, shit, there you go.

00:40:01.59
ben
yeah Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:40:04.41
Mike
Yes.

00:40:05.14
ben
You know, it's it was super, super interesting. um he's He's a fascinating person. And i you know, we've actually been in touch with him. He reached out to us.

00:40:17.35
Mike
Did he?

00:40:17.43
ben
um Yeah.

00:40:17.50
Bill
Oh, really?

00:40:18.33
Mike
Because, yeah yeah, in the doc, he didn't have a comment.

00:40:18.49
Bill
Oh.

00:40:19.10
ben
yeah yeah know Yeah, no, he has since reached out to us and and we've actually updated ah ah the film at the end to include a little clip itd of a conversation.

00:40:23.42
Mike
No.

00:40:28.60
Mike
Oh, cool. Okay.

00:40:31.54
ben
He's a very interesting person. you know he the bottom line is The bottom line is he said, look, you know I commend you on the film.

00:40:33.85
Mike
Clearly.

00:40:39.67
ben
I think that the issues the larger issues that that you bring to light are more important than the things that you have to say about me. um I do disagree with some of them, but, you know, for whatever reason.

00:40:52.27
ben
And so, um yeah, you know, yeah, exactly.

00:40:52.57
Mike
Sure. Self-preservation. I said that.

00:40:55.67
Bill
it so so it makes It makes me look bad.

00:40:56.34
ben
yeah Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:40:56.78
Mike
I said that.

00:40:58.87
ben
So so we've had a couple of interesting conversations with him. I'm actually excited. We're going to, you know, um he is a very well respected figure in this world. And and we've also encountered, um you know, some some universities that have been

00:41:06.52
Mike
Mm-hmm. Right.

00:41:13.69
ben
very welcoming to us like Duke University and Morehead State in Kentucky. We've also encountered you know some some challenging situations at times.

00:41:17.46
Mike
Cool.

00:41:20.50
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:41:21.05
ben
But what we're excited about is we're going to do a screening and panel discussion at Brown University on April 2nd with Thomas McCollin.

00:41:21.56
Mike
I'm sure.

00:41:29.75
Mike
Nice.

00:41:29.98
Bill
Nice.

00:41:32.15
Mike
Okay. Yes.

00:41:32.91
Bill
Oh, OK.

00:41:33.30
ben
So that will be very interesting. I look forward to to updating you guys on that.

00:41:35.35
Mike
Yes.

00:41:37.70
ben
um

00:41:37.91
Mike
Yeah, do you know if that's going to be available anywhere? Yeah.

00:41:41.78
ben
You know, we're trying to make that happen. And if it if it doesn't happen at that one, we might do a few others because I have a feeling it'll be a pretty interesting situation.

00:41:44.41
Mike
yeah

00:41:47.58
Mike
Cool. Mm. Yes.

00:41:50.46
ben
He's he's kind of an interesting dude. And, you know, he could have come at us a lot of different ways.

00:41:52.69
Mike
Cool.

00:41:55.85
Mike
I'm sure.

00:41:56.44
Bill
Oh, sure.

00:41:57.02
ben
I appreciate the manner that he chose. Yeah,

00:41:59.80
Mike
Nice.

00:42:00.12
Bill
Well, yeah, that that was the thing that he could have came up and said, you know, like when you just said, I disagree with some of the things that that you said, you know, and that's why I'm like, well, because yeah, it made you look bad, you know?

00:42:00.21
Mike
All right.

00:42:08.89
ben
yeah. yeah

00:42:09.45
Bill
So he, he could have easily dug his heels that had been like, you know, kind of like that, maybe not saying it, but only thing I'm like, well, fuck you.

00:42:12.53
Mike
Hmm. Wow.

00:42:15.62
Bill
You looked at it, you, you got this.

00:42:15.93
ben
Yeah, I mean, yeah, he could ah um he could have sent lawyers, you know, multiple lawyers after us, for sure.

00:42:16.12
Mike
Clearly, clearly he walks in some circles that are litigious. So, uh, right.

00:42:23.51
Bill
Right.

00:42:23.90
Mike
see

00:42:24.47
ben
He could have made a real headache for us.

00:42:24.69
Bill
Right.

00:42:26.74
ben
um And i appreciate I appreciate very, very much that he didn't and that he wants to have a conversation because that's what we're about.

00:42:26.74
Mike
Right. I'm glad he didn't.

00:42:28.60
Bill
Right.

00:42:30.94
Mike
Yes.

00:42:34.42
ben
And so this should be interesting.

00:42:34.55
Mike
Yeah.

00:42:36.28
ben
um But, you know, to the to the point of of him aside, you know,

00:42:36.69
Mike
Cool.

00:42:41.02
Mike
Mm hmm. Right.

00:42:42.97
ben
Just, it went to speaker again. Why did it do that?

00:42:47.06
Mike
e

00:42:48.18
Bill
hey

00:42:48.50
ben
i yeah we

00:42:49.34
Bill
Yeah, we we could tell. we We start to hear the echo when when it happens, but...

00:42:50.87
ben
There you go. Yeah. and Now the computer is getting a mind of its own before it was the cord. Anyway, apologies. um

00:42:57.45
Bill
No, you're fine. You're fine. Right.

00:42:58.33
ben
Yeah, you know, just the level that it went to, that's all. that that It was less personal about him and and more just like, you know, everyone's doing this. this is What I started to ask myself, what I realized was there was a great deal of personal interest involved in this. So even in one individual's care, I was thinking about the hierarchy of people involved in all of their interests, most of it financial.

00:43:18.84
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:43:18.96
Bill
Right.

00:43:18.97
ben
um And who are those people what are those entities and how high up does it go? And it's just kind of you know messed up to think about that when the person the only person who doesn't have that interest is the one at the bottom trying to get sober.

00:43:25.94
Mike
Yeah.

00:43:30.68
Mike
Yes.

00:43:31.58
ben
you know

00:43:31.58
Mike
who

00:43:31.77
Bill
Right.

00:43:32.63
ben
um And again, this isn't just, this isn't to like paint a negative picture. I just think it's important to understand that it's still up to us. You know what i mean? Like it's an enabling industry.

00:43:40.28
Mike
Absolutely.

00:43:42.42
ben
It tries to make it seem like you can't do it without it. When in reality, you're the only fucking person who can do it. You know what I mean?

00:43:47.86
Bill
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Right, right.

00:43:49.16
ben
Like you, you need help and yeah, support and care and you need to feel safe and all of that.

00:43:51.45
Mike
Yes. Right.

00:43:54.60
ben
But like at the end of the day, it's up to us, you know?

00:43:56.38
Mike
m Yes. Which you made very clear.

00:43:58.74
ben
um

00:43:59.86
Mike
Well, you know, the end of the movie and it was free.

00:44:03.03
ben
yeah

00:44:05.15
Bill
Yeah.

00:44:05.21
ben
You know, and, and, and, you know, i get a lot of flack for people saying that i'm I'm promoting abstinence, or it's only the 12 steps that i'm talking about it's like, no, it's not.

00:44:12.86
Mike
No, no, of course not.

00:44:13.29
ben
It's like, look, what what I benefited from was this connection with another person that I had this level of communication with that I was able to listen to them and tell them anything and all of that.

00:44:18.10
Mike
Yeah. Yeah.

00:44:22.77
ben
And it's like, that's, you know, that's, that's what it is.

00:44:24.76
Mike
Well, God, right up front in the movie, I saw it. It said, we support all avenues of recovery. I'm paraphrasing.

00:44:30.39
ben
Yeah, yeah.

00:44:30.92
Mike
But it was, yeah, right there in print on my screen. I saw it.

00:44:34.01
ben
Yeah. Yeah.

00:44:34.94
Mike
You know, I was like, cool.

00:44:35.67
ben
Yeah. No, no.

00:44:37.53
Mike
Yeah, absolutely.

00:44:37.66
ben
Totally. Yeah.

00:44:38.49
Mike
i i read it.

00:44:38.82
ben
Yeah.

00:44:39.73
Mike
I got it.

00:44:40.02
ben
yeah

00:44:40.25
Mike
I could read. ah Clearly, people that didn't read that, that's their problem.

00:44:41.30
ben
Yeah.

00:44:41.37
Bill
Right.

00:44:43.86
ben
yeah It's funny. It's, it's, it's funny what people want to take, what what they take from things.

00:44:47.98
Mike
Uh-huh.

00:44:48.78
ben
Yeah.

00:44:48.95
Bill
Well, that's say that's the other thing, too, that we and we talk about it on here. And we we didn't come into this again with a plan. But when Mike had told his his story, which was our episode three, he talked about AA and Alcoholics Anonymous and 12 Steps and all those different things and how important it was.

00:45:01.76
ben
Yeah.

00:45:02.62
Mike
Yeah.

00:45:03.47
Bill
Because that that is where we came where we came up. But um we also, we refused to ever put a ah disclosure on this podcast saying that we're we're not AA affiliated or not anything like that.

00:45:14.62
Bill
Because People need to be able to fucking figure it out. you know we're not This isn't an AA meeting. We also don't put we don't put you know trigger warnings.

00:45:19.42
ben
Yeah.

00:45:22.99
Bill
We don't believe in triggers. That's an old story. But we don't put, oh, we're going to talk about... so Somebody talked about suicide. Somebody talked about this. Somebody talked about being raped, whatever the case is. The the thing of it is is that we have to give...

00:45:32.41
ben
yeah

00:45:35.31
Bill
I don't know. ah It's our opinion. And correct me if I'm wrong, Mike, that people have to to to have the, they don't have to, but we're hoping that they have the ability to have a little bit of sense to figure out that, okay, number one, yes, we talk about how can we not talk about the thing that we did to get sober?

00:45:51.06
ben
Sure, sure.

00:45:51.39
Bill
But then again, if people listen long enough, they also realize that we never, you know, we never bash any other type of, you know, program.

00:45:51.92
Mike
Right.

00:45:59.26
Bill
We never bash any other type of way for somebody to get sober.

00:45:59.74
Mike
no

00:46:02.10
Bill
We even went as far as to say, what was that a couple of years ago, Mike, but sitting in front of a, or under a tree doing what did you say? As long as you're not hurting anyone.

00:46:09.50
Mike
Yeah, exactly.

00:46:09.56
ben
Yeah.

00:46:10.34
Mike
Right. You know, it it doesn't matter.

00:46:10.87
ben
Yeah. Yeah.

00:46:12.18
Mike
You know, if it's like yeah people on here know I'm an atheist, right? You know, but I, I'd work the 12 steps.

00:46:18.20
ben
yeah

00:46:19.39
Mike
Um, you know, that's fine.

00:46:19.70
ben
yeah

00:46:21.59
Mike
I, I make it work for myself, um, because that's my job. Um, but,

00:46:25.27
ben
Yeah.

00:46:26.81
Mike
Right, but i I always say, I don't care. as long as i don't care if what you believe in, what you do, whatever. If it's making you a better person, if it's making you if it's you know making

00:46:35.70
ben
yeah

00:46:39.03
Mike
the lives of the people around you better, i don't give a fuck what you're doing.

00:46:42.14
ben
Yeah, honestly, I'm with you. Like, I just don't, I support it You're doing better.

00:46:43.99
Mike
Yeah.

00:46:44.22
Bill
Right.

00:46:45.69
Mike
Yeah, right.

00:46:46.38
ben
you're You're happy. Great. Like, let's keep doing doing that.

00:46:47.74
Mike
Yeah, right.

00:46:48.82
ben
That would be my thought.

00:46:49.43
Mike
Yeah.

00:46:49.62
ben
Yeah. I didn't go looking for AA, believe me. You know what i mean?

00:46:51.96
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:46:52.38
ben
Like, I remember when I was about 15 and like smoking weed, my mom sent like me and my buddy to an NA meeting.

00:46:59.30
Mike
Uh-huh.

00:46:59.79
ben
And so we're like 15 sitting in this room, like some hardcore dudes talking about shooting anything they could in their arm.

00:47:02.60
Mike
Uh-huh.

00:47:05.21
Mike
Uh-huh. Right?

00:47:07.62
ben
And, you know, so that, that was, you know, weird.

00:47:08.66
Mike
Yeah.

00:47:10.58
ben
And so that was sort of my, my memory of that.

00:47:11.13
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:47:13.30
ben
And yeah, I didn't go looking for it. You know what mean? I ended up in a bad spot and yeah,

00:47:15.37
Mike
Right.

00:47:17.46
ben
that was available. And, and you know, I've gone to a lot of other, ah you know, 12 step ish type groups, but not 12 steps.

00:47:23.91
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:47:24.40
ben
So like, but you know, safe refuge recovery, I've gone to a few meetings like that, smart recovery meetings, you know, so there's a lot of lot of stuff out there that a lot of different offerings and and, you know, but I do think having some some sense of community and some sense of connection is is is helpful to people or was it was to me, you know, um But what's what's interesting and what we talk about in the film is just this whole idea of the finances behind it.

00:47:28.30
Bill
Right?

00:47:42.68
Mike
Absolutely. Yeah, me too.

00:47:51.78
ben
And you start to learn that that has a lot to do with why certain things are available to us or to ah certain people and other things aren't. And, you know, why things are called a gold standard or not. and You know, it's just interesting, you know.

00:48:01.85
Mike
Exactly. Right. It's the old Kinison joke. You know, if if I've still got $5,000 or $50,000, don't have a problem.

00:48:10.87
ben
yeah yeah yeah yeah Yeah.

00:48:11.48
Mike
yeah right

00:48:14.59
ben
Yeah. Yeah. It's so true.

00:48:15.45
Mike
you know exactly

00:48:15.93
ben
Sure. Sure.

00:48:18.90
Bill
So what do you what do you think, Mike? should we yeah Should we take a little break then and we'll get into the rest of it? I mean, i'm have I'm having a great time getting into all these different things, but probably wouldn't hurt to take a little break right off the bat, right?

00:48:27.99
Mike
Absolutely.

00:48:28.28
ben
sure

00:48:28.43
Mike
Well, speaking of filthy lucre, let's i have some words from our sponsors and we'll be right back.

00:48:28.98
ben
sure

00:48:42.04
Bill
All right, everyone. Welcome back. What did you say? Filthy what?

00:48:46.10
Mike
Lucre.

00:48:48.98
Bill
ah Half the time. and The funny part is that that maybe Ben, he just, he does these, ah yeah obviously leads us in every week and comes up with the weirdest shit sometimes. And I can't, I can't, sometimes I'm like, it what the fuck?

00:49:01.16
Bill
what What are you talking about? But anyhow, so, so yeah, the,

00:49:03.61
ben
I saw them the names on the podcast here read Ben, Bill, and Mike.

00:49:08.02
Bill
Oh, yeah, yeah.

00:49:08.47
ben
Yeah. Yeah.

00:49:09.37
Bill
Yeah, he he started doing that.

00:49:11.13
ben
yeah

00:49:11.76
Bill
God, I think what i that hit i was really early, wasn't it? I think.

00:49:14.71
Mike
when we switch to this platform, i don't know.

00:49:17.14
Bill
um Well, yeah, no, that was, river was that here or Riverside?

00:49:20.52
Mike
I, had whatever.

00:49:21.08
Bill
it's It's been a while. It's been a while.

00:49:21.88
Mike
I typed it in a long time ago and it stays there.

00:49:26.55
Bill
But, um but yeah, so, I mean, again, the the finances behind it, you know, again, to go back to what, what Mike had said, where, where we went to, and that's where, you know, like, like I had mentioned, you know my, my family's going all over the place looking for all these different things.

00:49:33.75
ben
And that's where, you know, like I said, my family's going all over places and all these different things.

00:49:38.07
Bill
And it was a, um, ah ah I don't know, kind of ah a comedy of of circumstances and whatever that I ended up where I did.

00:49:41.67
ben
And it was a, I don't know, kind of a comedy

00:49:45.48
Bill
But there there's meaning behind it, too, which has nothing to do with this story. But the whole point where with the Keating Center is like, you know, they take you in and, you know, they feed you. They've they've got, you know, a donation center.

00:49:55.76
Bill
You can get clothes, you can get deodorant, you can get toothpaste, everything that you need, because a lot of people are going in there with literally nothing, you know.

00:50:02.48
ben
Sure.

00:50:02.49
Mike
Hi.

00:50:02.64
Bill
And I mean, I, I had a couple of things.

00:50:02.64
ben
Right. Yeah.

00:50:04.26
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:50:06.30
Bill
I mean, I had, uh, um, I, I had my family around the and whatever I had a a few, I had a a couple is of, a couple of legs up on a couple of things, not, not health wise or anything like that. Mike are pretty, Mike and I are pretty evened up at where we came in physically.

00:50:19.06
Bill
Um, I just had a little bit, of little bit outside help, you know, along the way, but, um, But then, you know, one once you go through the the main part of the the program, and again, they introduce you to 12-step meetings.

00:50:29.77
Bill
You have to go to meetings. You do groups during the day.

00:50:31.00
ben
Yeah.

00:50:32.29
Bill
Once you get to the point where you start looking for looking for work and you get a job, you can still stay there.

00:50:32.38
ben
Yeah.

00:50:37.17
Bill
You can go to a three-quarter house, still be within the system, and then you start paying rent, and that's how that's how the payback is.

00:50:38.74
ben
Yeah.

00:50:43.58
ben
Yeah.

00:50:43.98
Bill
And then, you know, however long you stay, you're going to pay a certain amount for rent, which is nothing. It's what? What was it? $300 a month or something, Mike?

00:50:48.95
Mike
Yeah, $300 a month.

00:50:50.19
ben
Wow.

00:50:50.39
Bill
That's fucking nothing, you know?

00:50:51.52
ben
Yeah.

00:50:51.81
Bill
And, um, I mean, I love to go back to that point. I had more money than I knew what to do with. I wasn't, I wasn't making a ton, but I was, I started to make real money at the time that we were paying like Keating center rent.

00:50:59.48
ben
Sure. Yeah.

00:51:03.35
Bill
was fucking wonderful, you know, but,

00:51:03.51
ben
Yeah. Yeah.

00:51:05.88
Bill
but the whole point there is like mike said it's the fundraisers it's the donations and it's all all this money that comes in you know from people in the community that are there to support that type of program now so there there's not there's not a money money-making aspect to it it is it's people there um you know but then you start to hear about you know just in a general sense i knew about we've got a cousin who lives in south florida i was down there on several different occasions I went to meetings around there, a lot of halfway houses, a lot of things.

00:51:14.70
ben
Right. Yeah. Yeah.

00:51:33.24
ben
yeah

00:51:33.57
Bill
Did you see the signs? I got a glimpse of all that, but had no idea. we had our um When we had Gino on mic, he was from that area.

00:51:39.82
Mike
Mm-hmm. Right.

00:51:40.78
Bill
So he was talking about about the same thing, you know that the number of all these facilities.

00:51:41.08
Mike
right

00:51:45.74
Bill
But again, had no idea. But I mean, some of these places, you you look at it like, how this place looks really fucking nice, you know?

00:51:51.99
ben
Yeah, yeah.

00:51:52.47
Bill
um But again, to your point is the the financial part of it, I would have never, ever guessed.

00:51:53.64
ben
Yeah.

00:51:58.82
Bill
i mean, granted, I was guessing that these places were funded by insurance. That's why they were nice. Maybe a little bit too cushy for some guy like me. I don't know that I would have done well there. I would have done fine.

00:52:07.61
ben
yeah

00:52:08.26
Bill
I don't know that that's what I needed. But then on top of this... I never, I never in a million years would have guessed not only the, the, the, the retread type of thing, but where does this money come?

00:52:22.58
Bill
Where, how do we, they getting money to actually pay somebody? i just don't, I don't know. That's the part I'm like, where does all that come from? I just, it's all from insurance companies for what you're saying. Correct.

00:52:31.16
ben
Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, the reimbursements for treatment. I mean, there's, they're so lucrative, you know, for day of detox can be three to $5,000, $8,000. I mean, for a day, if they want to, you know, and that's before any services or any lab tests or anything like that.

00:52:39.35
Mike
Hmm.

00:52:39.64
Bill
Jesus Christ. Right.

00:52:44.16
ben
It's just for the bed. um And so, you know, yeah, yeah. It's really lucrative to the point where it's, it's worth it to pay people to go bring in clients. It's worth it to pay in many cases for the client's insurance.

00:52:57.50
ben
If you had to, you know um i mean, that's,

00:52:59.45
Mike
Yeah.

00:53:00.12
Bill
Yeah, i I caught that too when you said that.

00:53:01.53
ben
Yeah.

00:53:02.24
Bill
I'm like, i'm like Jesus Christ.

00:53:02.50
ben
Yeah. Now that's not going to happen at legitimate places or, or anywhere close to that, but yeah, it's, it's certainly possible.

00:53:06.68
Mike
Right.

00:53:06.78
Bill
Right.

00:53:09.57
ben
And sometimes, you know, that what happens, the treatment centers hire these middlemen specifically, so they don't know exactly what happens. So the middlemen might be doing the insurance buying so that that process is on them.

00:53:22.71
ben
um And the insurance company can, you know, deny that they, exactly know what's going on, right? um So yeah, so there's ah there's ah there's a whole racket there um when it comes to to that insurance of the amount of money that that insurance is creating repetitively.

00:53:28.41
Bill
Right.

00:53:38.71
ben
Like I said in the film, you you can, by doing it thoroughly throughout the year, you could generate up to like close to a million, you know, in billable services for one person.

00:53:46.18
Mike
Yeah, for one person.

00:53:47.86
Bill
Yeah, for what for one person. And then then, I mean, I know all this stuff depends on, like, you and I think the, and I understand a little bit, I was, it doesn't matter what business I've been in, but I understand the medical side of things, the insurance billing, to to a certain extent.

00:53:49.24
ben
Yeah.

00:53:49.37
Mike
Yeah.

00:53:49.55
ben
Yeah.

00:54:00.32
ben
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

00:54:01.48
Bill
I'm not an expert at it, but I've been around it long enough from the medical side of things where I do understand some of these some of these things. But there's going to be a certain point, and I think it was mentioned in the documentary, where these insurances are going to, sooner or later, going cap out, right?

00:54:14.74
Bill
Didn't that didn't somebody was it to was it the young lady that she got capped out and didn't couldn't go? Is that OK?

00:54:19.70
ben
Yeah, well, she got kicked off her parents insurance because she turned 27.

00:54:22.70
Bill
OK.

00:54:23.62
ben
Yeah. But no, I mean, Corey's been kicked off his insurance many times, though, they'll just tap out.

00:54:24.18
Mike
Right.

00:54:28.66
ben
And then, you know, they can either get a new policy, which they do in many cases, you know, they'll they'll hop carriers.

00:54:32.89
Mike
a Right.

00:54:34.78
ben
Yeah.

00:54:34.78
Bill
Right.

00:54:34.89
Mike
Well, and I saw that they gave him some phony pay stubs.

00:54:38.72
ben
Oh, yeah.

00:54:39.21
Mike
And yeah.

00:54:39.22
ben
Yeah. they

00:54:40.61
Mike
Wow.

00:54:40.66
ben
They put them on the payroll. You know, I started – while I was making this, I was getting some messages from these kids who started getting 1099s from treatment centers they worked for.

00:54:42.26
Mike
Yeah.

00:54:48.22
ben
Or they – not sorry. They started getting 1099s from treatment centers that they attended as a client.

00:54:53.32
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:54:53.94
ben
And they were like, why am I getting this?

00:54:54.01
Mike
Wow.

00:54:55.58
ben
And I said, because they bought you insurance and put you on the payroll.

00:54:56.09
Mike
Right.

00:54:59.34
Mike
Well.

00:54:59.54
ben
um Yeah. So, I mean, to the places that are really bad, there's no end to to the – the conniving and the setups that they'll do. It's most impressive, you know?

00:55:10.05
Bill
Right.

00:55:10.52
ben
um At the same time, you know, what's wrong with it is like, you know, okay, so you say up to a million in a single year, right? What would that take? That would take a person going through treatment repetitively, you know, five or six times.

00:55:21.92
Mike
Right.

00:55:23.06
ben
But that's also the narrative that we tell ourselves about addiction, that repetitive treatment is normal. Like it's become normal for a person to go to treatment 10 or 15 times.

00:55:28.34
Mike
um Well, yeah, institutionalized, absolutely.

00:55:31.44
ben
You know what I mean? Yeah. And it's just, it's just not normal. Like in what other area of medicine would that be normal?

00:55:35.66
Mike
Right.

00:55:37.20
ben
and Like in what other area of medicine do we then blame the the patient for not getting better, you know, and suggest, well, just do the same thing again.

00:55:42.58
Mike
Right.

00:55:43.39
Bill
Right.

00:55:44.75
ben
um So, yeah, I mean, there, there's a a lot of different ways that that you can talk about it and none of them are are super helpful. And I think, you know, most disturbing is just when you think about um however well intended, but some of the policy mixed with how the finances of this all work, And they're just often at completely direct odds from each other.

00:56:06.17
ben
You know, um you you have a choice to make.

00:56:06.33
Mike
Yeah.

00:56:09.17
ben
You can either make money or you can create recovery. and And to put that decision in the hands of

00:56:12.86
Mike
Right.

00:56:17.37
ben
you know relatively untrained folks is is really tough because i say untrained because the field's pretty unregulated you know the bar for entry is real low so um so it's tough you know again and it all comes back to how bad do you want it because you know y'all got so you know talked about salvation army i know some people who've gotten sober in and not these places and to me these places that feel more like uh the hospitality industry than they do any sort of recovery idea

00:56:20.54
Mike
me

00:56:24.28
Mike
Right. Yeah.

00:56:34.61
Mike
Mm hmm.

00:56:37.75
Mike
Right.

00:56:41.97
Mike
Mm hmm.

00:56:43.77
ben
I remember in my detox, you know, walking past the nurse's desk one day and I was talking to someone next to me about the sheets feeling like sandpaper.

00:56:43.89
Bill
Right.

00:56:50.89
ben
And that that nurse just shouted at me.

00:56:51.11
Mike
Yes. Mm hmm.

00:56:53.25
ben
She's like, do you know where you are?

00:56:54.90
Mike
a

00:56:56.44
ben
i was like, thank you. Yes.

00:56:58.17
Mike
yes

00:56:58.62
ben
ah Yes, I do. I remember. It feels very similar to a jail in a hospital.

00:57:03.61
Mike
Yeah.

00:57:04.19
ben
That's where I feel like I, but

00:57:04.44
Mike
Well, again, institutional, but yeah, but exactly.

00:57:06.10
ben
Yeah.

00:57:08.86
Mike
You know, um i mean, I'm sure it was the same with the place you went through that, you know, yes, you you don't live here. You know, this is, I mean, they discouraged us from calling it home, you know, and definitely like the the guys at the meetings and stuff we'd go to and, you know, we'd we'd say, you know, oh yeah, I got to go back to the house.

00:57:16.82
ben
Yeah. Yeah. you know

00:57:21.02
ben
Right.

00:57:28.47
Mike
I'm going home. And they go, no, you're not.

00:57:29.37
ben
Yeah.

00:57:30.94
Mike
You know, they look at us and they say, no, you're not going home.

00:57:31.03
ben
Yeah.

00:57:33.74
Mike
That is not your home. That is the place you are staying right now because it's a safe place to be to get your shit together.

00:57:35.06
ben
Yeah.

00:57:39.90
Mike
That is not your home.

00:57:40.28
ben
Yep.

00:57:41.30
Mike
And and yeah, but clearly.

00:57:41.56
ben
Yeah.

00:57:44.43
Mike
Yeah.

00:57:45.14
ben
The opposite is true of most of these situations. It's just a lot of enabling.

00:57:47.42
Mike
yeah

00:57:48.34
ben
And to the marketing, you see like queen size beds, TVs in every room. It's like, what what is this?

00:57:51.51
Mike
fast

00:57:52.24
Bill
Huh.

00:57:52.66
ben
Like, this is not, you know, this is a hotel. But that's, you know, a side effect of having 15,000 of them in this country. right It's created a ton of competition. Yeah.

00:58:01.18
Mike
Well, and it's you're also preying on people who are selfish and self-centered and and and their chief chief business in life is being as comfortable as they possibly can.

00:58:03.67
ben
yeah yeah

00:58:12.86
Mike
I know because I did.

00:58:13.01
ben
Yeah.

00:58:14.54
Mike
i was.

00:58:14.94
ben
Yeah.

00:58:15.22
Mike
I wanted to feel good all the time.

00:58:15.58
ben
Yeah.

00:58:17.46
Mike
That was my life's purpose.

00:58:17.59
ben
And

00:58:19.77
ben
yeah

00:58:19.93
Mike
and right And you're praying on that to these people, right?

00:58:22.26
ben
yeah

00:58:22.43
Bill
Right.

00:58:23.31
Mike
You know, I mean, yeah, the place we went. and No, here's your fucking bunk bed with your paper-thin mattress and, you know,

00:58:27.67
ben
yeah yeah and Yeah, totally. You know, and and for and for parents too in this situation, you know, that moment of realizing that their loved one needs help, you know, what a, you know, to pray on these people in that moment too.

00:58:31.48
Mike
Yeah. Sure.

00:58:34.47
Mike
Right. Yeah.

00:58:38.33
Mike
oh

00:58:42.98
ben
It's like, well, of course they're going to want to feel safe and like they're in a nice place. And this all sounds too good to be true.

00:58:46.33
Mike
hey

00:58:47.93
ben
You know, I can't tell you the number of moms that I've talked to that have had these these conversations with people promising the moon and then they get their kid out there and it's just a disaster, you know?

00:58:53.18
Mike
it he

00:58:56.73
Mike
yeah

00:58:57.34
Bill
Well, and I'm sure that, I mean, at at the time that, well well, two things that I thought about when when the word praying was just brought up, you know, praying on these individuals. and And I think the difference here, like, so, I mean, Ben, you've you've been, what, seven years sober?

00:59:11.26
ben
Yeah, going on eight. Yep, seven.

00:59:12.57
Bill
Okay. so let's let's call let's call you seven us 15 years. Okay. And I think different story.

00:59:16.53
ben
right.

00:59:18.58
Bill
if If somebody walked up to us today and said, hey, you know we got this thing. We're going to recruit. going to help people. I'm going to pay you. I'm going do all these different things.

00:59:24.58
ben
Yeah.

00:59:25.50
Bill
I'd be like, something's fucked up.

00:59:27.70
ben
Yeah, yeah.

00:59:27.82
Bill
You know, I don't get me wrong. I want the five grand or I want the seven grand, but I but I'm not going to do that because there's there's something fucked up versus me at, you know, on day four, you know, or, you know, fresh out of detox or wherever I am, 30 days, even 60 days, 90 days and somebody going, hey, I've got this for you.

00:59:32.00
ben
Sure.

00:59:32.10
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:59:35.56
ben
Mm-hmm.

00:59:44.24
ben
Yeah.

00:59:44.49
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:59:46.11
Bill
Plus, I'm going to send you're going to Florida.

00:59:48.54
ben
Yeah.

00:59:49.22
Bill
I'm going to put you up in this great place. And don't worry, you get to go someplace else after that if you want, but then you're going to help us get other people in this place.

00:59:53.82
ben
Yeah. Yep.

00:59:56.11
Bill
And then we're going to, we're going to give you some, give you some walking around, buddy. I'd be like, where do I sign up for this? Because there's a different mindset. And that's, that I think is the, ah I mean, all of this is bad.

01:00:07.62
Bill
Don't get me wrong, but, but preying on people at their, when they're most vulnerable, And and we had a situation where but we were almost, well, this funeral home was trying to take advantage of our sister when our mom died.

01:00:11.90
ben
Yeah.

01:00:20.16
Bill
And again, the story does not matter.

01:00:20.31
ben
Yeah.

01:00:23.02
Bill
But the point is, is that, you know, they they she would have done anything, our our sister would have done anything and spent any amount of money that she was told to in order to have this one last moment with our with our mom, you know, after she had passed.

01:00:34.68
ben
Yeah.

01:00:36.24
Bill
But it was just, it was it was such a manipulative type of thing.

01:00:36.66
ben
Yeah.

01:00:39.52
Bill
And the same deal in different circumstances. Like, okay, don't worry. We're going to take care of you. where You're going get better.

01:00:44.02
ben
yeah

01:00:45.10
Bill
And then on top of that, the family's like watching the one mom of the individual in Kentucky, you know, and she knew something was all fucked up, you know, but, but she's like, but yeah her number one goal, she wants her son to get better, you know?

01:00:45.24
ben
no

01:00:49.34
ben
yeah

01:00:49.48
Mike
Right.

01:00:51.93
ben
Yeah.

01:00:56.66
ben
Yeah. Yeah. No, I mean, you can't get, it's like, how are you going to, how's anything going to trump that? You know? And I mean, I remember myself like ah showing up to treatment.

01:01:02.81
Mike
Yeah.

01:01:05.98
ben
Like I didn't know what to expect. I would have done almost anything they told me to feel better. You know?

01:01:10.58
Mike
yeah

01:01:10.78
ben
um I really would have. and And that's, you know, in hindsight, that feels pretty naive. Like I can't think of like too many other potentially, you know, healthcare related situations that I would show up to completely blind like that, you know, like no clue what to expect, but, but.

01:01:23.22
Mike
Right. Yeah. But I mean, but again, you know, thankfully we went someplace where they weren't, they had good, not good intentions.

01:01:29.40
ben
Yeah.

01:01:32.44
Mike
They, they were actually doing good things.

01:01:34.87
ben
Yeah. Yeah.

01:01:35.38
Mike
um Right. You know, it, right. Cause I, you know, it just reminded me, you know, I mean, they point blank asking, you know, what are you willing to do? You know, and, and standard question for somebody going into a situation like that.

01:01:42.49
ben
yeah

01:01:47.66
Mike
And and of course your answer is, anything, you know, whatever whatever you tell me to do, I'm going to do.

01:01:50.30
ben
yeah

01:01:53.29
Mike
And yeah, well, Jesus, you know, yeah yes, you could take advantage of that very easily.

01:01:53.34
ben
yeah

01:01:53.61
Bill
Right.

01:01:56.22
ben
yeah

01:01:59.54
ben
Oh, yeah.

01:01:59.86
Mike
Thankfully, you know, thankfully, we had people that had been on the other side of that question, um you know, hopefully not...

01:02:00.54
ben
Yeah.

01:02:05.99
ben
Sure.

01:02:08.09
Mike
a while ago, but not too long ago, they remember. And, and they, they, they're helping someone else to help themselves, you know, not to help, not to help themselves.

01:02:11.86
ben
Yeah.

01:02:16.28
ben
Yeah.

01:02:19.57
Mike
And then maybe the other person will get help. Probably not, but I'm going to help myself first.

01:02:23.32
ben
Yeah.

01:02:24.97
Mike
Now.

01:02:25.27
ben
Yeah.

01:02:25.41
Bill
Right.

01:02:25.75
ben
You know that line you hear freely, you've been given freely, you should give whatever, however that is.

01:02:29.79
Mike
Mm-hmm.

01:02:30.86
ben
I mean, that, that is so appropriate for this.

01:02:31.31
Mike
Sure.

01:02:35.10
ben
Like I understand why that is the truth in that when you look at this situation, you know, is that if it's not, if it's not free and and I don't mean that I understand healthcare professionals have to be paid.

01:02:38.46
Mike
Sure. Mm-hmm.

01:02:45.81
ben
So I'm not suggesting that, but you get the idea um is that when it becomes transactional, that it just all goes out the window, you know?

01:02:49.34
Mike
okay

01:02:53.46
Mike
Right. Absolutely. Yeah.

01:02:55.00
ben
Yeah.

01:02:55.01
Mike
I mean, again, back to the Keating Center, you know, the Marty is still the director there.

01:02:55.22
Bill
Well,

01:02:59.69
Mike
He was the director there. We got there. We were just talking about this not long ago. um he he had the man, this man named Jack Mulhall had started the Keating Center and um he was, you know, huge in Cleveland recovery.

01:03:11.54
ben
Right.

01:03:16.17
Mike
Right. He had worked at another place for a long time and he started this place on his own because he wanted to do it right.

01:03:18.15
ben
Yeah.

01:03:22.25
ben
Yeah.

01:03:22.42
Mike
um And he had just passed about six months before we got there. So Marty had been handed this place basically um from Jack from his deathbed.

01:03:32.82
Mike
um Marty was like, he was under five years sober.

01:03:33.72
Bill
okay

01:03:36.82
Mike
he got He got his fifth year like a few months after we got there. you know so he he knew he was he was one of us i mean he was literally still living there um you know he's still the director he gets a salary from the place you know he he's married and has a house now and blah blah blah blah blah um you know he does make his living being the director of this place but i mean he's got a small house and you know i've been there plenty of times you know it's nothing you know he drives a nice car but it's not fantastic and Yeah, you know, right.

01:03:44.92
ben
Yeah.

01:04:02.54
ben
Yeah. Yeah. yeah yeah yeah Totally.

01:04:11.93
Mike
and oh yeah I mean, he's he's living from doing this good work, but he's doing the good work first.

01:04:16.59
ben
Yeah.

01:04:17.13
Mike
Yeah.

01:04:17.34
ben
No. And that's what, I mean, look, that's totally reasonable. And I think there's a lot of fantastic people working in this business to help take care of people.

01:04:19.58
Mike
Sure. Right. Mm-hmm.

01:04:24.06
ben
And which makes the people that aren't, you know, which makes that situation even more tragic because, you know, it it makes it much harder for the good people to stay open when, when the other people are, you know, their competition, so to speak, is thriving because of fraud, you know?

01:04:28.28
Mike
Absolutely.

01:04:32.02
Mike
Right.

01:04:32.41
Bill
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Right.

01:04:36.66
Mike
Yeah, right.

01:04:37.58
ben
So, so it it really is, it's tough. So I commend those people who are doing it for the right reasons, um you know?

01:04:43.76
Mike
Mm-hmm.

01:04:45.18
Bill
Well, and and just the just the insurance industry in general, I mean, granted the, um you know, like you used the word fraud before. And I mean, there's no other way to you know describe, obviously, what's happening.

01:04:55.40
Bill
And I love the the name of the thing, too, Shuffle. I mean, because that's really what's, everything's being shuffled, you know? So what what a great name for the for the documentary.

01:05:01.40
ben
Yeah, yeah.

01:05:03.88
Bill
And when I didn't think about it right away, about probably about halfway through, I'm like, ah, I get it now.

01:05:08.54
Mike
excuse

01:05:08.66
Bill
I literally, I just fucking, I'm like, I'm like, Jesus Christ, I understand the title now. I'm like, what the fuck? But, but the, but the thing of it is, is that, so the insurance companies are, I mean, the insurance industry.

01:05:15.66
ben
It's funny. Yeah.

01:05:20.26
Bill
So I was at a conference and this was, 25 years ago, okay, long fucking time ago.

01:05:23.60
ben
Yeah.

01:05:25.30
Bill
And this guy was, again, the industry I was in, I was sitting in on this, we were talking about reimbursements and insurance stuff and whatever.

01:05:31.68
ben
Yeah.

01:05:31.70
Bill
And the guy starts talking about the insurance industry and he goes, he goes the insurance industry you know is the most is is the wealthiest industry in in the country. And he said, he goes, but, he goes, here's the deal.

01:05:42.30
Bill
He goes, let's say for for every dollar they take in, they pay out $3 in claims. And then he stops for a minute and he says, did everyone hear me? Yeah.

01:05:52.47
ben
called the rule.

01:05:52.66
Bill
He's like, yeah.

01:05:53.68
Mike
Mm-hmm.

01:05:54.35
Bill
He's like, for every dollar they take in, they they spend three.

01:05:55.80
ben
yeah

01:05:57.03
Bill
And he's like, he goes, what they do?

01:05:57.26
ben
that's

01:05:58.67
Bill
He goes, he goes, is anyone in the room ever had a claim delayed? Everyone in the room, you know, raises their hand. Does anyone have the claim delayed? You know, like denied right off the bat. Everyone raises their hand again.

01:06:08.68
Bill
And I had talked to an insurance rep at one point. where they said that their mindset as an insurance rep, and this was as as an industry, I'm sure it's probably changed a little bit, but I'm sure it's in the same way.

01:06:20.16
Bill
They deny that every claim that came across, they would deny to begin with. And then even whether they it was 30 days, because they could have that 30 days to appeal or whatever the case was.

01:06:28.86
ben
Sure.

01:06:30.25
Bill
Even if they could hold a claim for 30 days, they knew they were going to pay it. They got 30 days of investment money. So that's where they're making all their money. So where they're only taking in a dollar, but spending three, they're making, you know, $7 within that 30 day period, you know?

01:06:42.97
ben
Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, it's fair very interesting.

01:06:43.90
Bill
And so, so you got, you got that to begin with. So, I mean, I, um, part of me is like, okay, well the insurance industry, you uncovered this thing where they're being, they're being fucked over by, by the, by the little man over here.

01:06:55.50
Bill
Part of me says, well, you kind of fucking deserve it, but not that way.

01:06:58.33
ben
Well, you know what's interesting?

01:06:59.34
Bill
They should be regulated and they should be whatever, but nobody deserves it.

01:07:00.71
ben
Oh,

01:07:03.66
Bill
Somebody found the loophole to be able to to use these individuals and shuffle them around and make money off of these this this globally huge industry you know that's got more money than they know what to do with.

01:07:05.27
ben
yeah. oh Yeah.

01:07:14.67
Bill
you know and it just It's just a mess.

01:07:14.94
ben
yeah

01:07:16.67
Bill
it's ah It's a whole pool of corruption. Yeah.

01:07:19.48
ben
Yeah, no, it really is. And, you know, the insurance part of this is is an area where I learned a lot. um And, you know, i think there's there's two things about insurance that are interesting.

01:07:30.23
ben
One is, i mean, it's probably the question we get asked the most is why would insurance keep paying for this?

01:07:35.29
Mike
Mm-hmm.

01:07:35.35
Bill
Right.

01:07:35.54
ben
And I think there's there's two ways to talk about it. One is that essentially... you know the major insurance companies are probably only footing the bill 50% of the time at the end of at the end of the day because most major insurers have gotten out of the you know bearing as much as much risk as possible.

01:07:44.95
Mike
Mm-hmm.

01:07:51.86
ben
like they're're They're doing that as little as they can. um And so who's paying the bill?

01:07:54.99
Mike
Mm-hmm.

01:07:57.90
ben
Well, in the other maybe not another 50%, but in a large majority of cases, you know major health employers that supply insurance to their employees ah have an employee-sponsored health fund.

01:08:08.82
Bill
Oh, sure, sure.

01:08:09.04
Mike
Right.

01:08:09.14
ben
And their claims are often paid there by that fund. So when it comes to insurance companies, though, you know tucked inside the legislation with the the ACA was a what I call the 80-20 rule. it's little There's a different word for it as well. But it basically, is ah it's a rule that says the insurance companies have to pay out 80% of their revenue ah from claim or from you know premiums and stuff like that. And they're they're allowed to keep 20%.

01:08:37.82
ben
you know um And so they're not, if you think about the sort of backwardsness of that idea, it doesn't matter whether the claims they're paying are are fraudulent or legitimate because the more they pay out, the more they get to keep.

01:08:50.30
Mike
Right.

01:08:53.24
Mike
Right.

01:08:53.26
Bill
Right.

01:08:54.14
ben
So ah they're not, they have no financial incentive to be honest with you to to stop paying those bills because at the end of the day, it still increases their bottom line and they can write the other stuff off as a loss.

01:08:58.76
Mike
Yeah. Mm-hmm.

01:09:04.07
Mike
Right.

01:09:06.61
Mike
Yeah.

01:09:06.74
ben
um which makes me even more sick. I mean, I think I looked up UnitedHealthcare a couple years ago, maybe 2023 annual profits were like $15 billion, just something stupid.

01:09:17.45
ben
You know what I mean?

01:09:18.07
Mike
Right.

01:09:19.16
ben
um so So yeah, that the whole insurance thing and and how that works and who's actually paying the bill at the end of the day, you know and And employers aren't any more incentivized to report the fraud either, because why are they supplying insurance to their employees to keep them happy and healthy?

01:09:34.06
Bill
Right.

01:09:34.09
Mike
Right.

01:09:34.39
ben
So they're not going deny claims for their care if they can help it. you know they're going to Yeah.

01:09:37.85
Mike
Sure.

01:09:38.91
ben
So they're not really incentivized to do anything about it either. um And meanwhile, the kid's trapped in a facility and can't talk to his parents because they took the phone away. And if he could talk to him, they just think he was a liar because that's what, right?

01:09:48.97
Mike
Right. Because he is.

01:09:49.91
ben
That's what they he is. And yeah, he is.

01:09:51.79
Mike
Right.

01:09:52.83
ben
And they've also made sure to tell the parents that and drive that home.

01:09:56.50
Mike
Yeah.

01:09:57.03
ben
So yeah, the whole thing is just such a perfect storm of just, it's it's a big nothing ball, you know?

01:09:57.40
Mike
right.

01:09:57.75
Bill
ah

01:10:00.76
Mike
oh Right.

01:10:03.67
ben
Or it has the potential to be that I i shouldn't say it's a nothing ball because you know what? I've had people come up to me after screening the film and say, I got sober at that place. You're talking about the place. You're right.

01:10:13.82
ben
It is a shithole. Also, I got, I got sober there and high five to that person.

01:10:15.24
Mike
Right. Right. Oh, sure.

01:10:19.20
ben
Cause that's exactly what I'm saying. And y'all are saying is you can do it anywhere.

01:10:21.30
Mike
Right.

01:10:22.85
ben
How bad do you want it?

01:10:23.26
Mike
Right.

01:10:23.85
ben
You know what i mean? um but that shouldn't defend and excuse all of this other, you know, bullshit behavior and, and these financial incentives that are just putting hurdles in people's way, because that's, we don't need that.

01:10:30.42
Mike
Right.

01:10:35.67
Mike
And again, instead of relapse and and and not getting sober.

01:10:36.10
Bill
Well, and

01:10:40.76
ben
Yeah. I mean, if you were to draw the cycle of addiction and then you were to take that doodle and you were to duplicate it and wipe out the words and replace them with recovery words,

01:10:41.72
Mike
Yeah.

01:10:51.94
Mike
Mm-hmm.

01:10:58.52
ben
Because of this insurance model, it would it could look the same. You can end up calling the cycle of failed relape failed treatment attempts or or relapse attempts during treatment and repeat treatment that looks exactly like someone struggling with addiction who gets high, gets sick, gets well, get high, get sick, get well.

01:11:03.11
Mike
Right.

01:11:17.15
Mike
Mm hmm. Right.

01:11:18.34
ben
it's just it's It's sort of startling to see how we've monetized that cycle, switched some language, and now we can kind of call that recovery too.

01:11:18.49
Mike
Right.

01:11:23.45
Mike
Yeah.

01:11:26.71
ben
And that's just that's what's really concerning to me you know because obviously ah people aren't getting the help they need, but not only that, they're damaging their future opportunities to get better.

01:11:27.95
Mike
Mm hmm. Yes.

01:11:37.72
ben
I mean, there's only so much you can like allow someone to fail or take advantage of them out, you know, worse and and expect them to sort of rebound from that.

01:11:37.99
Mike
Mm hmm.

01:11:44.34
Mike
Right.

01:11:46.19
ben
So I, you know, I say that, and then you see some incredibly resilient folks in the film without giving too much away. So, um, you know, how bad do you want it?

01:11:51.95
Mike
Mm-hmm.

01:11:52.74
Bill
Right.

01:11:54.70
ben
Right. I guess is it all comes back to.

01:11:55.19
Mike
Right.

01:11:56.63
ben
Absolutely.

01:11:57.11
Mike
Absolutely.

01:11:57.30
Bill
Well, and there was a, oh go ahead.

01:11:57.59
Mike
And it's, well, but it's also getting into not being in that situation.

01:11:58.55
ben
And it's, well, it's also getting into not being in that situation because i mean the two success stories at the end of the movie

01:12:03.15
Mike
Because, I mean, the two success stories at the end of the movie, they clearly, they got out of that cycle and got into a place that actually helped them, you know, individually.

01:12:07.16
ben
a clearly they got up.

01:12:12.65
ben
It happened again.

01:12:12.72
Mike
I mean, that was, you know, I know.

01:12:13.49
ben
You got me.

01:12:15.23
Mike
Yeah.

01:12:16.76
ben
There it is. It was going too well.

01:12:18.14
Mike
There it is. Right.

01:12:18.84
Bill
yeah

01:12:18.92
ben
Going too well.

01:12:19.96
Mike
Exactly. No, but yeah, but they got out of that particular cycle and got into a proper facility.

01:12:26.81
ben
Yeah.

01:12:27.22
Mike
And yeah, right.

01:12:27.54
ben
Yeah.

01:12:27.63
Bill
Right.

01:12:28.94
Mike
I love the girl.

01:12:29.30
ben
I mean, yeah right?

01:12:30.10
Mike
she I love the girl went to Glen Bay. I was like, hey, I know that place. Right.

01:12:33.10
ben
Yeah.

01:12:33.56
Bill
Yeah.

01:12:33.80
Mike
Right.

01:12:34.46
Bill
Well, that was it.

01:12:34.81
ben
yeah

01:12:34.98
Bill
That was the thing. There was two things I was going to mention the Glenn Bay part. I was kind of funny, Mike. I was thinking about it when I, when we saw that whole thing, I would bet we're probably not more than three degrees of separation away from her.

01:12:45.34
Bill
There's gotta be, there's gotta be somebody that either we know that knows her or somebody that we know that knows that knows her because Cleveland is very, um they're really, really good recovery in the whole Cleveland area.

01:12:46.05
ben
Oh, yeah. No.

01:12:48.99
ben
Yeah.

01:12:50.33
Mike
Oh, clearly.

01:12:52.06
ben
Yeah.

01:12:57.44
Bill
very tight number of people.

01:12:57.46
ben
Yeah.

01:12:59.16
Bill
And I'm not saying that there's only a limited number of, I don't know, hubs, if you want to call it that, but it does, it doesn't take long that it it seems like everyone knows everyone, you know, it, when I saw that, I'm like, I'm like Glen Bay, our our cousin went to Glen Bay.

01:13:05.11
ben
yeah

01:13:08.92
ben
yeah yeah yeah

01:13:13.32
Bill
We know people that went to Glen Bay.

01:13:13.66
Mike
right. Oh, yeah.

01:13:14.80
Bill
I mean, that's, it's a fancy pants type of place.

01:13:14.87
ben
Yeah.

01:13:16.76
Bill
You know, you were there, you know, but um

01:13:17.18
ben
Yeah, she has a, yeah, she has a tendency to make herself known in a crowd as well. So I wouldn't, I ah wouldn't doubt that there's some, some connection there.

01:13:22.23
Mike
i could I could see that.

01:13:23.03
Bill
well, okay. Yeah. I was going to say,

01:13:27.14
ben
Yeah, she's great.

01:13:27.35
Bill
yeah

01:13:28.30
ben
She's great.

01:13:28.63
Bill
But the the other thing, too, like when you had mentioned like ah people walking up to you and saying, hey, I got sober at one of those shitholes.

01:13:28.62
Mike
hmm.

01:13:34.31
ben
Yeah.

01:13:34.75
Bill
Even the Keating Center, which was a really good experience for us and for a number of people, there' there's still there's a there's a hand handful to maybe what eight or nine, maybe ten guys that that we are still we still know that went through that program at that time frame.

01:13:48.24
Bill
Within a six-month period of of us being there at the time we were there, they're still sober at the same amount of time. you know So a good good group of people that came out of there.

01:13:53.85
ben
Yeah.

01:13:56.40
Bill
But the there was still those people drinking those people using those people getting kicked out those people around you know so we still had to and i don't mean like ah i mean i suppose rise above right mike a little bit i mean and and stay away and we were told that to begin with there's people in here that are not taking things seriously and people that are and like our our buddy michael we had him on his good friend of ours and we talked about this is that he came in and he had bounced he had been at different different things and in and out the whatevers But by the time he got in at the time he got sober, when when we were there, he was done fucking around.

01:14:01.27
ben
Yeah. Yeah.

01:14:08.54
Mike
Mm-hmm.

01:14:14.46
ben
yeah

01:14:23.45
Mike
Mm-hmm.

01:14:29.78
Bill
And there was some I remember being in a group with him and people were, you know, not paying attention, doing this. And they he got up and he's like, you need to shut the fuck up. He's like, I I'm trying to learn something here.

01:14:37.88
ben
Yeah.

01:14:38.35
Mike
Yeah.

01:14:40.02
Bill
And he goes, I'm not trying to come back here again. He goes, shit we all need to take this seriously.

01:14:42.74
ben
Yeah.

01:14:44.02
Bill
He was also yelling at the group, the person running the group because they weren't taking control of everyone, ah you know. And, um, and I'll tell you, it's, it is, you know, the, yeah, it's just, it is a matter of, okay, I don't know.

01:14:49.75
ben
Yeah. He'd had enough, huh? Yeah.

01:14:56.23
Bill
I'll just put it this way. The way that I got sober in the way that Mike got sober, that, that worked for us. Okay.

01:15:02.47
ben
Sure.

01:15:02.77
Bill
I don't know that I could have, I'm not saying I couldn't have gotten, you know, sober someplace else. I'm not saying I couldn't have went to the Florida or California or Northern Wisconsin or wherever.

01:15:11.06
ben
Yeah.

01:15:12.69
Bill
I don't know, but you know what? I'm glad I don't need to find out as long as I keep doing what I'm doing.

01:15:16.83
ben
Yeah.

01:15:18.43
Bill
I had that opportunity and that choice, you know, not to, not to have to find out. I, I did, you know, we, we put in our, we put in our time, we put in our calories. We don't want to go back there again, Mike, at least not what you say is not as an overnight guest, right?

01:15:26.88
ben
Yeah.

01:15:29.48
ben
No.

01:15:30.65
Mike
right yeah i just i did group at the keating center for that five six years after i got out and um yeah i mean i tell the guys all the time look i love this place i don't ever want to spend the night here again you're right clearly

01:15:35.70
ben
Yeah.

01:15:41.75
ben
Yeah. Not interested. one hundred percent. Yeah. No, I'm with you. I'm so, so grateful. I mean, that was part of why I made this film was just that I was so, I felt so fortunate.

01:15:53.27
ben
Uh, And just, you know, ah you know how it is. You get sober, you want everybody else feel that good. You know what i mean?

01:15:57.97
Mike
sure

01:15:58.39
ben
Like to have that chance. It's like, oh shit, this is like, because it didn't even occur to me, you know, for like 20 years that this would, and even an option, you know?

01:16:08.08
Mike
Mm-hmm.

01:16:08.42
ben
And and so all of a sudden to have this massively transformative experience, it was like, wow, I feel so much better.

01:16:16.15
Mike
Right.

01:16:16.63
ben
um and And, you know, to I knew that I was fortunate in that, you know, maybe 10, 15% of people who who need help have access to it. But I just thought that it was a little bit, you know, we were getting more of a fair shake, those people who were in there.

01:16:26.04
Mike
Mm-hmm.

01:16:30.27
ben
And um and that's not always true. You know, I mean, look, and we all know it's hard. Like, you know, I think... out of 10 people in my PHP program, probably four or five of them relapsed, you know, before the end of that program.

01:16:42.13
Mike
Uh-huh.

01:16:42.99
ben
So it's tough as it's tough as it is.

01:16:43.45
Mike
Right.

01:16:43.51
Bill
Right.

01:16:45.46
Mike
Absolutely.

01:16:45.72
ben
um But obviously that's all the more reason to, to not give anyone incentive to make that process any harder on folks, you know?

01:16:53.66
Mike
Right.

01:16:53.69
ben
Yeah.

01:16:53.77
Bill
Right.

01:16:54.82
ben
Yeah.

01:16:55.00
Bill
So let me let me ask you a question, too. I mean, do you plan? in ah Seriously, what I when I was sitting down and I'm watching the whole thing and I couldn't remember to begin with when it started off, how long it was. I didn't really care. I think I watched it last Saturday or whatever it was.

01:17:07.05
Bill
So I had no no time restrictions.

01:17:07.13
ben
Yeah.

01:17:08.61
Bill
I'm like, I'm going sit down and I'm going to enjoy this, which I did, know, but it's like it's done.

01:17:11.61
ben
Yeah.

01:17:13.23
Bill
And I'm like, it left me wanting I mean, again, lots of questions. That's why I'm so glad we had the opportunity, obviously, to have you on and have this interaction because a lot of these questions get answered.

01:17:20.89
ben
Yeah, this has been great.

01:17:23.36
Bill
But it was almost like I want more. So are you planning on, I know you said you got this Q&A thing going on, you got maybe some other things. Are you planning on building on this or is that kind of like you're just going let it flow the way it flows or what's the plan or is there one?

01:17:39.03
ben
you know ah You know, there is there really isn't one. i mean, the immediate plan is is to take this.

01:17:42.06
Bill
Okay.

01:17:44.16
ben
I mean, it's opening in theaters now. So to sort of take this show on the road and most of the screenings we're doing, I'm trying to get around to each city and to do at least one Q&A in the city, if not more, and have some conversations.

01:17:54.85
Bill
Right.

01:17:55.95
ben
We're doing a whole, we have an impact campaign. You can go to stoptheshuffle.com and learn more about it. But we're doing a lot of educational screenings. universities um and and different advocacy groups.

01:18:06.43
ben
So we'll be on the road with that for probably at least the next six months. And then, you know, I'm not sure what else, you know, I i think if um I don't think it would be, this wasn't a very sustainable process or repeatable process in terms of like, you know, how to,

01:18:10.85
Mike
Mm-hmm.

01:18:21.13
Mike
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

01:18:24.38
ben
be a person and like finances and all of that like to create this was was a huge privilege but it would be very hard to replicate it in the same way so if someone came my way and said hey you know let's make let's make this so let's talk about that i would entertain it you know it's also like i feel what i'm starting to see that you know for example there's a professor at um

01:18:34.62
Mike
Mm-hmm.

01:18:34.89
Bill
Sure.

01:18:49.50
ben
ah Morehead State in Kentucky, who we've been collaborating with for a while and who's now introducing um a minor in substance use disorder with some classes in unethical treatment and sort of inspired by Shuffle in a certain way. She's going to use that as part of the coursework. And the whole idea behind making this film was for me to sort of, as as sort of poignantly and potentially as crassly as possible, make as much noise as I could.

01:19:13.30
ben
So the people who who are doing the work can actually have an easier time potentially doing their work because there's a little light a light here. So I feel like rather than make something else related to this, My my best efforts for the the meantime might be just taking this film around and talking to people sort of as matter of factly as I can um about how do we just, you know, because changing policy, I like I'm not an economist, I'm not a policy person, but this is not rocket science.

01:19:30.67
Bill
Right.

01:19:40.02
ben
so I mean, like, you got to change a few things here.

01:19:40.48
Mike
Right.

01:19:43.02
ben
And in case, you know, if no one's volunteering to point this out, I'm happy, I'm happy to help do that. um You know, and let's see what let's see what can happen because you know, you you shine the right light in the right places and it makes certain people uncomfortable.

01:19:55.83
ben
um

01:19:55.91
Mike
Mm-hmm.

01:19:56.54
ben
That said, no one likes anyone getting in the way of the money they make. Um, so it's not an easy change.

01:20:00.73
Mike
Right.

01:20:00.87
Bill
Right.

01:20:02.51
ben
You know, I think also just educating people and not educating them.

01:20:05.27
Mike
Mm-hmm.

01:20:05.83
ben
That sounds pretentious, provide, providing some information.

01:20:07.31
Mike
No.

01:20:09.18
ben
Like I didn't know this, any of this information.

01:20:09.67
Mike
Mm-hmm. Right.

01:20:11.62
ben
And I think some of this is very, could be very useful when, when people are looking for treatment for themselves or for loved ones. So we've also got some tips on a resources page on our website where, you know if you're looking for treatment, there's a couple of steps you can take to just stay a little bit safer.

01:20:25.62
ben
You know, um, that's it

01:20:27.00
Bill
Yeah, and you know what, that's a great way, and I'm actually really glad that you answered that question with, I don't know what I'm gonna do, because that that kind of goes back to the the thing you said to begin with, but um and what I meant like when I wanted more, to you to your point, not necessarily dig deeper into this, but just the the whole style of what you did was, I enjoyed the shit out of it, I really, really did.

01:20:27.06
Mike
Great.

01:20:35.26
ben
Yeah.

01:20:51.23
ben
Well, thank you.

01:20:51.84
Bill
Um, how just, how it, how it felt and how it played. And, um, I don't know, there, there's certain things I suppose, you know, I mean, we, we, we blow a lot of smoke up people's asses every once in a while, I suppose.

01:21:02.38
Bill
And I could be doing the same thing to you, but if, um, I think people, Mike knows number one, um, Mike knows me well enough. And I think anyone who's listened to us, if I didn't have anything nice to say, I'd be quiet and I never am, you know, I'm not as quiet.

01:21:15.03
ben
Yeah. Yeah.

01:21:15.92
Bill
And um I'll be honest with you, too, to begin with, when we were approached with this, I sent it to Mike and I said, I don't I don't know how I feel about this.

01:21:16.20
Mike
Right.

01:21:22.72
Bill
But I you know, we we share these things because I usually man the email.

01:21:23.19
ben
Yeah.

01:21:23.58
Mike
if

01:21:27.00
Bill
So I got it and I looked at it and I looked at the website and stuff and kind of got the gist of what it was about. And I was honest with Mike. I just said, I don't know. i don't have an opinion. I don't know how I feel about this.

01:21:37.54
Bill
Usually a lot of times I try not to push and he tries not to push.

01:21:37.69
Mike
me

01:21:42.10
Bill
We we take our opinions and talk about them and figure out where things fit right.

01:21:44.51
ben
Yeah.

01:21:45.86
Bill
um

01:21:45.88
ben
Yeah.

01:21:47.16
Bill
But if one of us is like, this this sounds fucking amazing, let's roll with it.

01:21:50.72
ben
Yeah.

01:21:50.76
Bill
We've done that before. But my my first thought was, how how weird is this going to be? you know we We had a guy on last week. His name is Jim. He's doing ah this whole charity thing with you know Rehab Center, and we're affiliated with the Keating Center and all these different different things like that.

01:22:05.36
ben
Sure.

01:22:06.75
Bill
All these positive things. And then you know we're going to bring on somebody that's looking in ah in another direction.

01:22:13.19
ben
Yeah.

01:22:13.53
Bill
And I didn't know how would play. But then, you know, Mike made a good point.

01:22:15.42
ben
Yeah.

01:22:16.93
Bill
He's like, no, let's – he goes, there's some shit going on here. Let's see what's what. And it reminded me of it when you said make some noise because that's kind of what you said, Mike, and not in those words.

01:22:24.86
Mike
Mm-hmm.

01:22:25.73
Bill
And I'm like, well, fuck it. How how bad can it be?

01:22:27.89
ben
Yeah.

01:22:28.57
Bill
You know, because literally that's that's what I said, I think. I'm like, well, how how bad can it be? You know, if there's some shit going on, regardless of – we can support whoever we want and still hold our so hold our stance.

01:22:39.58
Bill
But, yes, we need to take a look over here – and see what, if there's some shit going on, let's take a peek.

01:22:39.77
ben
Yeah.

01:22:44.90
Bill
And and I'm glad that we did, is my point.

01:22:46.90
ben
Yeah, I appreciate that very much.

01:22:47.34
Bill
I mean,

01:22:49.22
ben
I appreciate you guys taking the time and and to support the idea and the conversation, you know.

01:22:54.01
Mike
and Absolutely. I mean, you know, ah you said you wanted to shine a light on this. um Clearly, i had no idea that, I mean, I knew, you know, I knew that there were rehabs out there that were a little shady and, you know, and and you know the the spa stuff and all that, you know, I used to be an addict and now I'm not, you know, we always joke and make fun of those places.

01:23:07.64
ben
Yeah.

01:23:12.66
Bill
ah

01:23:12.89
ben
Yeah. yeah yeah

01:23:15.61
Bill
yeah

01:23:15.64
Mike
um But I but had absolutely no idea that the depth of the the corruption and and the and the horrible treatment that these addicts were getting.

01:23:24.31
ben
Oh, yeah.

01:23:26.46
Mike
um so as far as shining a light, you have succeeded spectacularly.

01:23:26.68
Bill
Right.

01:23:26.74
ben
Yeah.

01:23:31.88
Mike
And I want to thank you for your service.

01:23:32.46
ben
Yeah.

01:23:34.32
Mike
Cause it was, yeah, you know, a shout from the highest mountain i already have. Um, you know, I, it sure you know, I clearly we've been posting that we were going to have you on and sharing, you know, the trailer and stuff and all that.

01:23:44.82
ben
Yeah. It's so cool.

01:23:47.18
Mike
And, um,

01:23:47.48
ben
Yeah.

01:23:48.60
Mike
A friend of mine in California that I i knew a long time ago and when I was in Hollywood and doing rock and roll and she was down there.

01:23:55.54
ben
Yeah.

01:23:56.42
Mike
um She's been sober now for like 10 years and she she messaged me today.

01:23:59.71
ben
Right on.

01:24:01.62
Mike
She said she watched it. She watched the documentary last night and she was like, oh my God, this was amazing. And I can't wait to hear the podcast. you know So um ah one person at a time, man, we're spreading the word.

01:24:10.10
ben
ah Great. Great.

01:24:12.98
ben
Yeah.

01:24:13.82
Mike
So thank again, thank you.

01:24:13.91
ben
I love it. Yeah. Thank you both. Thank you both.

01:24:17.34
Bill
Yeah, absolutely.

01:24:17.53
ben
That's amazing.

01:24:18.14
Bill
And, and you know, um obviously we we say this a lot with a lot of people, depending on what they're doing. But, you know, we always we never want to be short of saying that if there if there's anything that we can do to to help, um you know, support, promote anything like that.

01:24:33.20
Bill
Pretty much we we have this open with everyone that comes on our podcast because, the yeah we We joke about it. We say we want you to be able to you know help you whore out your shit and whatever.

01:24:41.88
ben
Yeah, I appreciate it.

01:24:42.00
Bill
i mean we We say it jokingly, but but i mean the the thing with it is, in in all seriousness, is that um and we we do.

01:24:42.93
Mike
Hehehehehehe.

01:24:44.79
ben
man.

01:24:48.80
Bill
we say we say ah ah We say no to a lot of people. and because there we have Even though we we're very open-minded about a lot of things, like give you an example.

01:24:56.97
ben
Yeah.

01:24:57.49
Bill
We don't do NA beer or NA spirits. We have nothing nothing against them, but we don't do it.

01:25:00.97
ben
Yeah.

01:25:02.77
Bill
We don't drink them.

01:25:02.97
ben
Yeah.

01:25:03.69
Bill
So we wouldn't promote them We've, we've done that. We've done certain things that we've been approached with that we wouldn't, we wouldn't do. So we don't promote it. um But for those of us that we have on, you know, those people that we have on and especially have great conversations with, if they're literally, if there's anything that we can do to help, you know, promote or spread the word, or you were talking about, you know, like ticket giveaways or something like that.

01:25:11.06
ben
i hear that

01:25:24.30
Bill
So let me just kind of step back. Like what I told you, and I was telling Mike about this before you got on. Um, I don't know and we don't know all the time where people are listening. you know But if you ever come across where you're going to have a screening in a city, um let us know.

01:25:38.26
ben
Yeah.

01:25:39.18
Bill
if you give us I would say give it a week to two because you know how people's attention spans are on Instagram.

01:25:42.46
ben
Sure, sure, sure, sure.

01:25:44.06
Bill
But give us a little bit of a heads up. you know If there's a screening and you want to try to give away some tickets, we can throw it out there and promote it to people and whatever you want to do.

01:25:50.30
ben
Yeah. That's cool.

01:25:52.46
Bill
We're more than willing to partner with with you on any of that stuff and help out in any way. Because again, like Mike said, I mean, Shit. I mean, shining and light, fuck big and bright over here.

01:26:01.63
ben
Yeah.

01:26:02.17
Bill
I, I had no idea. He had no idea. I'm sure that I can't imagine the people except that unless the people who have been involved in it, I can't imagine that you're all any everyday normal, whatever normal recovery individual has any clue what's, what's going on out there.

01:26:14.33
ben
Yeah. Yeah.

01:26:14.84
Mike
see

01:26:17.37
ben
No, most, yeah, most people are pretty shocked, but I appreciate the offer of support and we'll definitely keep you posted on the list of screenings.

01:26:17.45
Bill
So I think this is going to an eye opener.

01:26:24.29
ben
Cause we'll have a updated ones very soon.

01:26:24.70
Mike
yeah and definitely if you're coming to cleveland let me know man because i'll get a whole bunch of people there good

01:26:26.41
ben
So, you know what? We, we will, we're going to be playing at the Cleveland international film festival this year.

01:26:34.60
Mike
oh are you cool

01:26:34.84
ben
Shuffle shuffle is going to screen there.

01:26:35.58
Bill
Where when?

01:26:36.24
ben
Yeah. Yeah. ah Let me get, i can get the dates and I'll email them to you.

01:26:39.29
Mike
Yeah, yeah.

01:26:40.15
ben
um

01:26:40.18
Bill
Okay.

01:26:40.28
Mike
And actually, I'm on their mailing list, so i'll I'll look it up and check it out because I've been to several.

01:26:44.57
ben
Hang on.

01:26:45.60
Mike
I love going, yeah.

01:26:46.98
ben
It's ah April 9th and through 18th. I'm not sure what our screen screening date is yet, but I'll let you guys know for sure.

01:26:50.90
Bill
Oh, shit.

01:26:50.93
Mike
Right, right, right. Yeah. Sweet. Yeah, it was definitely.

01:26:54.68
ben
Yeah.

01:26:54.78
Bill
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. If you're going to do that, I mean, i'll I'll make the trip out there and we can get we can get more people than you can fucking handle it. A thing like that we get there's yeah we get all our all our Cleveland people out there.

01:27:01.05
ben
Yeah, that'd be awesome.

01:27:04.82
Bill
But God, that'd be that'd be a lot of fun. But seriously, yeah.

01:27:06.84
ben
Yeah.

01:27:07.46
Bill
Any anything like that? Let us know. We'd be more than happy to. But um anything that that we've missed, anything that that you want to either recap or or focus on anything at all that you want to you know kind of get out to people in a wrap up here?

01:27:20.95
ben
No, and this has been a great conversation. You guys are fun. This is easy.

01:27:23.96
Mike
Yeah. Mm-hmm.

01:27:24.31
ben
Easy going. I like it.

01:27:25.46
Mike
yeah

01:27:25.67
ben
You know, the film's playing in l L.A. this week, in Santa Monica on Tuesday the 27th, and in North Hollywood on Wednesday the 28th, and Laguna Beach on the 29th.

01:27:37.72
ben
Sorry. You can go to StopTheShuffle.com for tickets. And also, like I said, resources, tips for staying safe if you're looking for treatment. And we're on Instagram at StopTheShuffle.

01:27:49.43
Bill
Yeah, and we will have ah in it's it'll be in the description on the on the episode. So anyone who wants the link, you know, direct link to their Instagram, if you're on if you're on Spotify or listening to this on Spotify, that's a click through.

01:28:01.31
Bill
If not, you know, it'll say at that. Obviously, the thing will have it right in there. And that I mean, your Instagram page has got links to that gets you anywhere they need to be for you.

01:28:08.18
ben
Yeah.

01:28:09.25
Bill
Right.

01:28:09.78
ben
For sure. For sure. You can find anything you need there. Tickets, website, all that stuff.

01:28:13.46
Bill
Okay, cool. But no, I mean, I'm telling you, first of all, I mean, again, the documentary again, holy fuck, like I started out with saying.

01:28:14.23
ben
Yeah.

01:28:19.74
Bill
it And then the in this conversation, Jesus, I mean, its this has been this has been a a ton of fun, absolutely a ton of fun. So, Ben, don't go anywhere, though. Mike um has a very unique way of kind of leading us out of here.

01:28:32.03
Bill
Do not remember, don't don't hang up. We're going lead out of here, and then we're going to talk to you after we're done recording.

01:28:34.24
ben
I won't.

01:28:36.47
Bill
So do not hang up, Ben.

01:28:38.14
ben
I won't. Promise. Thank you both. Okay.

01:28:39.86
Bill
All right.

01:28:40.92
Mike
All right. Well, thank you everyone for listening to yet another episode of Sober Not Mature. always, be kind to each other, be good to each other, go out and do something nice for somebody else this week and don't tell anybody you did it. And you know what? After you do that, go see Shuffle because it is an amazing documentary. Now, from the bottom of my heart to the depths of my soul, from the beginning of time until the ends of the earth.

01:29:09.59
Mike
always and eternally. Fuck you. And now it's time, kids. It is time for you to fuck off. Then keep fucking off.

01:29:20.09
Mike
Keep fucking off till you get to a gate with a sign on it saying, you cannot fuck off past here.

01:29:24.63
ben
past

01:29:26.04
Mike
Climb over that gate. Dream the impossible dream and keep fucking off forever.

01:29:33.27
Bill
See, that's our that's our fun way of getting this shit wrapped up. ah yeah You're not going to hear that every every other place.

01:29:39.20
ben
that's great.

01:29:40.65
Bill
And that that started off with, what was that episode four when you couldn't we couldn't figure out how to sign off, Mike, I think?

01:29:40.70
ben
yeah

01:29:45.62
Mike
Right.

01:29:46.09
Bill
Yeah.

01:29:46.23
Mike
Yeah. And I said, well, we' the tell him to fuck off.

01:29:48.82
Bill
Yeah.

01:29:49.07
Mike
Mm-hmm.

01:29:49.34
Bill
So yeah, that's, that's literally where it started that our our, our good friend of ours gave us the first part.

01:29:49.66
ben
yeah

01:29:54.70
Bill
Our sister gave us the second part.

01:29:55.64
ben
Yeah.

01:29:56.26
Bill
We're like, uh, it's just that we're we have fun with it. So, um, I can't say it enough.

01:29:59.22
ben
I love it.

01:30:00.46
Bill
i mean, thank you, Ben, for, for taking the time and, um, your, your people, whoever found us, uh, give them, give them an extra dollar, buy them a soda or something like that, because we, we appreciate the fact that they, that they found us.

01:30:07.16
ben
Yeah.

01:30:10.92
Bill
So, um, seriously, we appreciate it.

01:30:11.62
ben
Yeah.

01:30:13.08
Bill
So, all right.

01:30:13.18
ben
This was great. I appreciate you both. Thank you so much.

01:30:15.13
Bill
Yeah. Thank you, Mike. Love you, brother.

01:30:17.02
Mike
Love you too.

01:30:18.04
Bill
All right. And I know we'll talk soon.

01:30:19.61
Mike
We shall.

01:30:20.54
Bill
All right. Remember Ben, don't hang up. All right.

01:30:22.49
Mike
Bye.

01:30:22.50
ben
won't promise.

01:30:24.58
Bill
Bye everyone.

01:30:25.48
ben
Later.

01:30:25.50
Mike
by