SoberNotMature - Episode 204 (Jim O. - Mucking Out Our Stalls)

00:00:01.43
Bill
All right, everyone. Welcome once again to another episode of Sober Not Mature. And we do have a guest. His name is Jim.

00:00:09.64
Mike
Right. Mm-hmm.

00:00:10.83
Bill
Yeah, and it here's here's the fun part.

00:00:11.48
Mike
Yes. Yes.

00:00:13.31
Bill
Number one, Jim not only followed directions, he got everything set. He and another guy tested everything. And no offense to you know a couple of the people like Jermaine, we're going to have on at the end of the month.

00:00:23.56
Bill
He had a boatload of stuff going on in his life that wasn't meant for him.

00:00:25.85
Mike
right

00:00:27.56
Bill
We've had others that haven't come prepared. Not only did Jim come prepared, but he sounds wonderful.

00:00:29.78
Mike
see

00:00:32.32
Bill
So real quick, take ah just a couple of minutes, introduce yourself briefly, then we'll get into the the entire podcast, okay?

00:00:32.70
Mike
yes

00:00:39.99
Jim O'Connor
Sure. My name is Jim O'Connor. I'm a certified alcohol and drug counselor outside of Chicago. And I'm the founder and executive director of the Second Story Foundation. um And we just bought what we're calling the Second Story Ranch, a 68 acre working horse farm out in Creed, Illinois. That's the site of a workforce development program and a future recovery home and jobs program um for men,

00:01:07.58
Jim O'Connor
who are suffering from like not just severe substance use disorder, but really a lack of resources, housing, instability, unemployment, you know, disconnection from community.

00:01:19.48
Jim O'Connor
um I've been in the field for a little while. I've been in recovery for almost 10 years now myself. um And the truth of the matter is in my story, i needed so much help.

00:01:29.78
Jim O'Connor
I mean, i was crawling

00:01:30.92
Mike
Yep. Right. Cool.

00:01:33.46
Jim O'Connor
into recovery. And um if it wasn't, you know, it's, I've said for a long time, it's not just what happens, it's it's who happened.

00:01:34.71
Mike
that

00:01:41.60
Bill
Oh, yeah, yeah, absolutely.

00:01:42.17
Jim O'Connor
And, um and I was fortunate enough to have some really amazing people um put me on a path that that got me to where I am today. So I'm grateful for you guys being here to be able to talk about this stuff. And and it's great that you guys, you know, even just started this.

00:01:56.50
Bill
Yeah, well, you know, we we did it we did it on a whim, and don't congratulate us too much. It was for selfish reasons. We did it.

00:02:02.46
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:02:02.73
Bill
We literally did it so we could get get together every every week and shoot the shit. We we both got sober in Cleveland. Mike is still in Cleveland. I'm not. So we did it selfishly. But, but yeah, so we've we've gained a little bit of a footing over the last almost four years, and we have fun doing it.

00:02:16.89
Bill
so Plus, then we get to meet you know a lot of interesting people like yourself. Yeah. plenty of other people. So it's been a lot of fun. But yeah, just real quick, that list of what you said all these guys need, not just this, but that.

00:02:27.75
Bill
I think Mike and I checked all those boxes.

00:02:30.91
Mike
Yeah.

00:02:31.42
Bill
I was thinking, I'm like, I'm like me, me.

00:02:32.15
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:02:32.34
Jim O'Connor
i've Yeah, i've I've read your stories a little bit.

00:02:34.88
Bill
Yeah.

00:02:34.90
Jim O'Connor
Yeah.

00:02:36.73
Bill
Yeah, it's, ah its yeah we we came we came in with ah with all with all the fundamentals, I think, that that we needed. So um real quick, and I'm going to have Mike. Mike always explains how we do the story, but I want to interrupt this this for one second.

00:02:48.89
Bill
I think you'll appreciate this too, Mike. So one of our really good friends um who she lists herself as a fangirl of our podcast, her name is Shirley. She's a like one of the only females that listens to us.

00:02:59.95
Bill
Not really, but sort of.

00:03:01.21
Mike
a

00:03:02.06
Bill
But Shirley celebrated six years sober this week, Mike.

00:03:05.40
Mike
Oh, cool.

00:03:05.54
Bill
I don't know if you Yeah. but

00:03:07.17
Jim O'Connor
Congratulations, Shirley.

00:03:08.22
Bill
Yep. And she listens. She actually listens. if she, if she's not lying to us every week, she listens every Monday. So I wanted to, normally when we have a guest on, we don't do these announcements, but she, she happens to be slightly important in our lives.

00:03:13.94
Mike
yeah

00:03:19.48
Bill
And we spent some time with her at founder's day this, this year or so.

00:03:19.77
Mike
Right.

00:03:23.24
Bill
She's a, she's a good shit and yeah, six years sober for her. So um Mike explained it as we were talking before, we don't have a lot of structure, but just a little bit.

00:03:28.22
Mike
Yes.

00:03:31.94
Bill
So Mike, how do we tell stories around here?

00:03:34.79
Mike
All right. Well, we definitely know how to get fucked up. We know how to fuck up our lives. We know how to fuck up the lives of everybody around us. We know how to do that very well. um We hate drunk logs, basically. So, you know, um tell your story, you know, qualify yourself, all that good stuff.

00:03:52.89
Mike
But... we don't We know how to get fucked up. We're interested in the solution. you know We know what happened. We want to know what it's like and what it's like now.

00:04:02.07
Jim O'Connor
Yeah.

00:04:03.86
Mike
so ah Other than that, you know tell your story, Jim, man. Tell us what what what brought you to this point in your life.

00:04:12.76
Jim O'Connor
So, uh, like pain and consequences, right?

00:04:15.29
Mike
Right.

00:04:15.70
Bill
ah

00:04:15.96
Jim O'Connor
Pain and consequences was it. And, and I love how you said that, um, Mike, you know, we know how to get fucked up and we know the drunk log, my favorite, I do want to do this.

00:04:22.61
Mike
Yo. Mm-hmm.

00:04:25.23
Jim O'Connor
One of my favorite things to do to to get past that part is, is I asked people who I'm talking to or listen, I said, do me a favor and close your eyes and go back in your own story and, and imagine and remember that.

00:04:41.08
Jim O'Connor
the worst shit you did, like the worst moment that, that those things that every once in a while, they just creep up on you and give you the the shivers.

00:04:49.40
Bill
ah

00:04:50.26
Jim O'Connor
And then I'll say, open your eyes. I did that too.

00:04:54.12
Mike
Yup.

00:04:54.23
Bill
yeah

00:04:55.03
Mike
Yeah.

00:04:55.29
Jim O'Connor
And that's it.

00:04:56.09
Bill
ah That's awesome.

00:04:56.82
Jim O'Connor
Right.

00:04:57.15
Bill
That's fucking awesome.

00:04:57.72
Jim O'Connor
Um, just, I did that too.

00:04:57.75
Mike
Yeah.

00:04:58.13
Bill
I like that. Okay.

00:05:01.21
Jim O'Connor
And,

00:05:01.42
Mike
Yup.

00:05:02.49
Jim O'Connor
um You know, I am an addictions counselor. have a certified alcohol and addictions counselor that I've worked with a lot of people over the years. And, you know, part of my story, if you go back far enough, and i've I've listened to hundreds, if not thousands of people's stories.

00:05:17.09
Jim O'Connor
And and one commonality that I think I've found, um it's true in my story, and and ah it's another way to kind of get past it and and keep moving is um for so many people,

00:05:17.55
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:05:29.50
Jim O'Connor
You know, they they suffer abuse, neglect, trauma at some point in their lives that, you know, they were treating it a way that they shouldn't have been. um And the best way I can put it it is, you know, growing up, sometimes there are bad years.

00:05:42.38
Mike
Mm hmm.

00:05:42.81
Jim O'Connor
And I had some bad years in my house, but they didn't, it wasn't all bad.

00:05:46.48
Bill
Right.

00:05:46.52
Jim O'Connor
And, and I think um those years probably affected me in ways that, that weren't healthy and and I didn't respond to them well, but at a certain point, 18, 19, 20, 21 years old, um that shits on me.

00:05:46.49
Mike
Right.

00:06:00.48
Jim O'Connor
Like I wasn't doing, it those things weren't happening.

00:06:00.61
Mike
Mm hmm.

00:06:03.64
Mike
Right.

00:06:03.93
Jim O'Connor
um I was happening and, and I was, I was gone.

00:06:05.82
Mike
Yes.

00:06:07.25
Jim O'Connor
So um March 16th,

00:06:13.51
Jim O'Connor
2016, I was about 41 years old and um I had checked the boxes of consequences, failed relationships, um lying, cheating, stealing, um you know, lost jobs, DUIs, jail, jail, jail, right?

00:06:13.93
Mike
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

00:06:34.17
Mike
a

00:06:35.81
Jim O'Connor
Like, ugh.

00:06:35.99
Bill
yeah

00:06:38.49
Jim O'Connor
and And when I think about things like when I talk about the pain and consequences, jail's a really good example, but, you know, a DUI, a legal case, you know, losing a job.

00:06:49.53
Jim O'Connor
I look back and I'm like, these were things that were supposed to get my fucking attention.

00:06:53.57
Bill
Right.

00:06:54.58
Jim O'Connor
Right. And they just didn't.

00:06:56.38
Mike
Right.

00:06:56.95
Jim O'Connor
And I had a a great professor in an addictions class um say, you know, there's ah some sort of disease component to this because for alcoholics and addicts,

00:07:11.00
Jim O'Connor
Things that for other people would be catastrophic consequences just don't get our attention. We just brush off brush off and keep going.

00:07:18.71
Mike
Right. Yeah.

00:07:21.59
Bill
Oh.

00:07:22.23
Jim O'Connor
Right?

00:07:22.26
Mike
Right. It's like the description of the heavy drinker in the big book, right? You know, given sufficient reason, they can stop on their own. We had plenty of fucking sufficient reasons and we could not stop on our own.

00:07:32.86
Jim O'Connor
Like, gee, right?

00:07:34.02
Mike
Yeah.

00:07:34.79
Jim O'Connor
Like, Christ. um You know, Cook County Jail.

00:07:39.29
Mike
ah

00:07:40.12
Jim O'Connor
is, you know, horrible.

00:07:42.26
Mike
I hear they serve a wicked pepper snake.

00:07:44.69
Jim O'Connor
It's horrible.

00:07:45.24
Mike
yeah

00:07:45.57
Jim O'Connor
No, they call it sweat meat.

00:07:48.15
Bill
oh

00:07:48.88
Mike
That's a Blues Brothers line.

00:07:49.85
Jim O'Connor
That's a, it's a, yeah, sweat meat.

00:07:50.62
Bill
hey

00:07:52.70
Jim O'Connor
Um, so March 16, 2016, had, um I had experienced homelessness in California um scraped my way out of it, you know, barely, conned my way really, um and and made my way back to Chicago.

00:08:06.97
Mike
Hmm.

00:08:09.54
Jim O'Connor
I'd i'd been all over the world. i had interesting jobs, um but I was an alcoholic. And when i look at the arc of my life, you know, no matter what interesting job I had, no merit no matter where I lived in the world, no matter who I was dating,

00:08:24.31
Jim O'Connor
um I was always doomed. I was never going to do anything but but sink to the bottom as long as I was drinking.

00:08:28.03
Mike
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

00:08:32.90
Jim O'Connor
And I didn't really understand that. And and on the morning of March 16th, I found myself absolutely broke. I was thrown out of the shithole motel I was staying in, in Wheeling, Illinois.

00:08:48.98
Jim O'Connor
And no no one to call, no IDs, a garbage bag with some clothes in it, like one shoelace. And i'm it's 10 in the morning and I'm standing across the street from a liquor store and I'm thinking,

00:09:05.17
Jim O'Connor
I can go in there and I can just steal a bottle of vodka.

00:09:09.15
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:09:09.27
Jim O'Connor
ah I'm going to grab it and I'm going to walk right out. And that guy behind the counter, it's 10 a.m.

00:09:13.13
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:09:15.16
Jim O'Connor
He's not expecting this. Like he's not going to hop over the counter and I'll just walk out.

00:09:16.67
Mike
Right. Yeah.

00:09:18.49
Bill
okay

00:09:21.43
Jim O'Connor
And if he does, and I go, maybe he'll call the cops. And then the conversation in my head starts and it says, well, the cops will show up.

00:09:26.14
Mike
All right.

00:09:28.07
Jim O'Connor
And I'm like, ah, I'm pretty fast. i'll I'll be under a bridge drinking it before they find me.

00:09:33.85
Mike
right

00:09:34.65
Jim O'Connor
And then the voice in my head says, yeah but you'll have to do it again tomorrow.

00:09:38.46
Mike
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

00:09:39.29
Bill
Right.

00:09:40.05
Jim O'Connor
And I thought, oh, fuck. um

00:09:42.44
Mike
All

00:09:43.38
Jim O'Connor
And then I thought, who can I call?

00:09:45.62
Mike
right.

00:09:45.66
Jim O'Connor
And i thought of it I thought of a guy, in ah a wealthy lawyer who was a really wonderful person, um who I thought might take pity on me. And then the voice in my head said, if I gave you $500, it'd be gone in a week.

00:10:00.60
Jim O'Connor
If I gave you $5,000, it'd be gone in a month. And if I gave you $50,000 right now, it would be gone in a year.

00:10:03.21
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:10:06.48
Jim O'Connor
And you would be standing across the street from a liquor store trying to steal a bottle of vodka.

00:10:06.97
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:10:10.81
Bill
Right, right.

00:10:10.82
Mike
Yep.

00:10:11.48
Bill
right

00:10:12.60
Jim O'Connor
And at that point moment, I knew it was totally over.

00:10:15.13
Mike
Yeah, there's your fucking moment of clarity.

00:10:16.86
Jim O'Connor
Right.

00:10:17.43
Bill
but

00:10:17.85
Jim O'Connor
um And right. So, but, but in, in my story at that moment, that did not mean like, let's go get sober. Not even close.

00:10:24.98
Mike
m

00:10:25.44
Jim O'Connor
I, I, ah um and it was, I mean, it was a total come to God moment and, and ah everything in my life had kind of started flashing before me.

00:10:25.56
Mike
Right.

00:10:27.00
Bill
yeah

00:10:33.94
Jim O'Connor
And a few of the things that, that got me and still get me to this day that I keep real close to me. um There's the homelessness, The loss of jobs, the no money, nowhere where to live, um no family, lost friends. But one thing that that kind of hit me really hard was recognizing that over the course of my life, um I loved people.

00:10:57.88
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:10:58.65
Jim O'Connor
And they loved me. And I still set everything on fire.

00:11:03.28
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:11:03.74
Bill
Right.

00:11:04.82
Jim O'Connor
I set all of it on fire. And so what scared me about that was knowing that regardless of my good, deep intentions, I was dangerous.

00:11:11.97
Mike
Mm-hmm. All

00:11:14.11
Jim O'Connor
I was i was ah i was a fucking fire.

00:11:17.57
Mike
right.

00:11:18.01
Jim O'Connor
um And that hurt, you know, knowing that I was just crushing everybody I loved um and that it wasn't for a lack of people. It wasn't for a lack of care.

00:11:27.18
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:11:27.45
Jim O'Connor
um I just, I drank until there was nothing left.

00:11:31.44
Mike
Yeah,

00:11:31.61
Jim O'Connor
Um, and so that was, that was the day of March 16th. And I waited till around midnight and, uh, climbed to the top of a swing set at a park and I pulled the chain up and wrapped it twice around my neck and I threw myself off the crossbar.

00:11:50.78
Jim O'Connor
Yeah, that was my, that was my way out. I thought that was absolutely the right thing to do.

00:11:52.95
Mike
yeah right. Hmm.

00:11:54.86
Jim O'Connor
I thought that it ended. i thought, you know, everybody, and I knew it. I literally went through it in my head. I said, everyone will say, what a fucking asshole.

00:12:02.04
Mike
yeah

00:12:02.14
Jim O'Connor
What a coward. What a, what a waste. And I said, but they'll get over it and move on. And it'd be the last thing I did that ever hurt anybody.

00:12:10.55
Mike
Right.

00:12:11.51
Jim O'Connor
Um, And so I threw myself off the crossbar and I hit the deck. It just spun out and I was on the, it was, I mean, there was, I just, it was not even a cry for help.

00:12:18.42
Mike
since instance instance

00:12:23.29
Jim O'Connor
It was just poor engineering.

00:12:23.77
Mike
Right.

00:12:24.29
Jim O'Connor
poor engineering

00:12:24.66
Mike
Yeah, right. right

00:12:25.66
Jim O'Connor
It was, it was a shitty knot.

00:12:25.78
Bill
ah

00:12:26.51
Mike
Couldn't even do that right, huh?

00:12:28.66
Jim O'Connor
Like, um, um and And it was, you know, i look back and it was, you know, top three worst things I ever did in my life. um But I was empty at that point and exhausted, didn't have another...

00:12:41.77
Mike
Right.

00:12:46.52
Jim O'Connor
shot at me. And, and, and I will say till I die on a power, under a power that was not my own.

00:12:47.61
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:12:53.59
Jim O'Connor
Um, I got up and I walked in about one in the morning, I walked two miles into the Wheeling, Illinois police station. i walked right in there and I said, my name is Jim O'Connor. I think I have a warrant out for my arrest.

00:13:03.95
Jim O'Connor
And I just tried to hang myself.

00:13:04.22
Bill
but

00:13:06.27
Mike
Yeah.

00:13:06.33
Bill
ah Hey, nice to meet you.

00:13:06.69
Mike
Right. Yeah.

00:13:08.12
Jim O'Connor
And so, right. When you talk about surrender, I was like, I literally, i literally surrendered.

00:13:11.45
Mike
yeah

00:13:11.86
Bill
hu

00:13:12.47
Mike
radio right

00:13:14.26
Bill
Yeah, literally.

00:13:14.65
Jim O'Connor
um and And the funny thing was, is i when i so so when I walked in and I was standing there, that that the exact sentence, my name is Jim O'Connor, I think I have a warrant out for my arrest, and I just tried to hang myself.

00:13:26.84
Jim O'Connor
it was the only thing It was the most true thing I could say. It was everything I could tell you about myself at the moment.

00:13:32.89
Mike
it is

00:13:33.14
Jim O'Connor
there was not like That was it

00:13:33.34
Bill
Right.

00:13:34.81
Mike
yeah

00:13:35.45
Jim O'Connor
And, um, to their great credit, um, the police at the station, they didn't hook me up on the warrant. It was for failure to appear. Um, and I, uh, spent a few days in detox at a psych ward and, um, they asked me if I was an alcoholic and I just shrugged.

00:13:44.24
Mike
Right.

00:13:50.88
Mike
Mm hmm.

00:13:55.50
Jim O'Connor
I'm like, whatever. Would I like to go to rehab? And I didn't have anywhere to go.

00:14:00.57
Mike
right

00:14:01.37
Jim O'Connor
um And so, and my clothes were at the yeah police station. And so I said, yeah, sure.

00:14:06.71
Mike
e

00:14:08.59
Jim O'Connor
um in And I don't know how it is in other states, but in Illinois, when you're uninsured, homeless, um no money, no nothing, you don't really get to pick where you go.

00:14:17.51
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:14:20.01
Mike
Yeah, that's pretty much everywhere.

00:14:22.01
Bill
Yeah.

00:14:22.14
Jim O'Connor
Right.

00:14:22.37
Bill
yeah yeah

00:14:23.35
Jim O'Connor
um So the hospital had signed me up for Medicaid and they put me in a van and they shipped me across Chicago to the South side. um and i did 28 day inpatient um and I still didn't have anywhere to go.

00:14:37.85
Jim O'Connor
and And to this, to this day, I'll say that like 28 day inpatient is so necessary for some people. It's just to get the, you know, get, so get a little bit clean and catch your breath.

00:14:44.49
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:14:48.50
Mike
Right. Yeah.

00:14:51.32
Jim O'Connor
and maybe make a new choice.

00:14:53.05
Mike
Right.

00:14:53.34
Bill
Right, right. Hmm.

00:14:54.33
Jim O'Connor
And so they said, where are you gonna go? I said, i i don't have any options. And so they pointed at some halfway houses um and they they mentioned a ah recovery program outside of Chicago that was on, it was a community center, you know, church program, but they had a farm, um they had horses on the farm and and you worked for room and board

00:15:00.90
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:15:17.32
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:15:18.21
Jim O'Connor
It was 12 step based. And, and I said, the funny thing was, that they said it was a six to nine month program. And my first thought was, I don't fucking have nine months.

00:15:27.48
Mike
Right. Yeah, right.

00:15:30.06
Bill
Yeah.

00:15:30.07
Jim O'Connor
Right.

00:15:30.78
Mike
Right.

00:15:31.00
Bill
yeah

00:15:31.16
Jim O'Connor
got to get a job, dude.

00:15:32.22
Mike
Yeah.

00:15:32.42
Jim O'Connor
I got to get a place to live.

00:15:32.66
Mike
Right. Yeah.

00:15:34.42
Jim O'Connor
got to get back at it.

00:15:36.29
Bill
I got shit to do. Yeah, we we said we said the same.

00:15:37.72
Mike
Right.

00:15:38.95
Bill
Both of us said the same thing. I was going to hang out for, what did I say, like two months, couple of months, 30 days, whatever.

00:15:43.06
Mike
Yeah. Yeah.

00:15:44.71
Bill
And then Mike, you know, same thing, though.

00:15:44.89
Mike
right

00:15:46.43
Bill
You committed, though. Mike might committed to the whole thing.

00:15:47.70
Mike
yeah

00:15:48.75
Bill
But, yeah, the the majority of people that that we know are the same thing. It's like fucking fucking nine months, man. I got moves to make, man. I can't i can't do this.

00:15:56.91
Mike
Right. Right.

00:15:57.82
Jim O'Connor
Right?

00:15:57.95
Mike
Yeah.

00:15:58.18
Jim O'Connor
Like, do you know what?

00:15:58.47
Mike
Yeah. Yeah.

00:15:59.22
Bill
Yeah.

00:15:59.30
Jim O'Connor
i like, I know I'm in trouble. I'm going to get it all taken care of too. That's the great thing, right? I'm going to get back at it and I'm going to fix everything.

00:16:06.10
Mike
right

00:16:06.94
Jim O'Connor
um And then that same voice that was in my head on the day, the last day I drank said, no one is waiting for you.

00:16:15.22
Mike
right

00:16:15.38
Bill
yeah

00:16:16.82
Jim O'Connor
Word for word. I'm telling you word for word was in my head. No one is waiting for you.

00:16:20.76
Mike
yeah

00:16:21.62
Jim O'Connor
And so I thought, all right, screw it. And, and I went to this program and there were so many good people. We had to go to four meetings a week. um I got up every day at seven, made my bed and then went to work on a farm.

00:16:33.62
Mike
since

00:16:34.58
Jim O'Connor
And, and the first job is um grab, they drop you off at a horse barn and they give you a shovel and that's And,

00:16:34.71
Mike
Right.

00:16:41.85
Mike
Yep. I saw that one coming.

00:16:43.00
Jim O'Connor
and

00:16:44.09
Bill
Yeah.

00:16:45.87
Mike
Yep.

00:16:46.01
Jim O'Connor
Right. And I'm like, so I am digging out literally and figuratively. um

00:16:50.42
Mike
Yeah.

00:16:51.35
Jim O'Connor
But it was, it was grounding. It was outdoor.

00:16:53.59
Mike
Yeah.

00:16:53.91
Jim O'Connor
It was working with horses. It was completely different. I'd spent, you know, when I think of jails, institutions, rehab, psych hordes, I just think of cinder block walls, fluorescent lights, right?

00:17:04.70
Mike
Right.

00:17:05.73
Jim O'Connor
Like just locked down, just walls closing in on you. um So to have, have a place in a program where I was outdoors um on a really special property.

00:17:17.73
Jim O'Connor
And then people that gave me a job, like I was, I'd be the first one to tell you I was unemployable.

00:17:20.99
Mike
Yeah.

00:17:24.47
Jim O'Connor
um If you gave me a job, I would have worked a few weeks in the first paycheck, I'd be drunk.

00:17:24.48
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:17:29.00
Mike
Yep.

00:17:30.52
Jim O'Connor
And I mean, I actually thought like, if I were to be honest, I'd walk into a job interview and and first words out of my mouth should be, don't hire me.

00:17:30.58
Bill
Right, right.

00:17:30.56
Mike
Yep.

00:17:39.06
Mike
Right. Right.

00:17:41.33
Jim O'Connor
This, I'm a terrible idea.

00:17:43.70
Mike
ah

00:17:45.41
Bill
I'm a cautionary tale. You don't want any part of me.

00:17:46.49
Jim O'Connor
Right? Like this, this could go a number of ways, right? Like I'll show up, right?

00:17:51.53
Bill
None of them are any good.

00:17:54.06
Jim O'Connor
I will show up on time, but I cannot tell you how it's going to um

00:17:57.53
Mike
right

00:17:57.62
Bill
So, so quick question, just to, just to kind of stop with the, the place that you were, that you were at that, that farm, were these, were these recovery people that were at the farm or were you just going to somebody's farm and working on it or how did that work?

00:17:59.86
Jim O'Connor
Sure. Sure.

00:18:10.20
Jim O'Connor
Yeah, so it it was an interesting situation. The place is called the Center of Palos Park, and it was it was founded, and it is a 501c3 religious nonprofit.

00:18:21.89
Jim O'Connor
And so it was founded as a Christian institution, ah and it evolved over some years.

00:18:22.10
Bill
Okay.

00:18:22.09
Mike
Right. Yeah.

00:18:26.61
Jim O'Connor
And it had a lot of programs on it. it had a um It had a church, a chapel on a hill on site, um but they had a kindergarten um on the farm. They had summer camps for kids. They did luncheons for seniors.

00:18:40.09
Jim O'Connor
um arts and crafts programs. And so they their purpose was this larger Christian community center. But one of the programs within it was a men's recovery program um that actually started out before um Bill and Bob got together.

00:18:55.02
Jim O'Connor
It started out in the 30s.

00:18:55.42
Bill
really

00:18:55.44
Mike
Yeah.

00:18:56.58
Jim O'Connor
And so they were just taking, at the time, they were taking um a lot of alcoholics who were kind of itinerant and they'd give them, you know, they'd say, hey, you want to sober up and work for

00:18:56.96
Mike
Wow.

00:19:06.65
Jim O'Connor
a while will keep you here in our community and and people would work and get sober for a little while and often move on.

00:19:12.18
Mike
Right.

00:19:12.70
Jim O'Connor
um But over the years they adopted 12 steps of Alcox Anonymous and AA attendance and membership became a core component of the program.

00:19:23.03
Bill
OK.

00:19:23.03
Mike
Nice.

00:19:23.13
Bill
Sure.

00:19:23.74
Jim O'Connor
Probably about, you know, around the or so or 90s. And the

00:19:26.22
Mike
Mm-hmm. Right.

00:19:27.32
Jim O'Connor
and so the the the farm i was on, it wasn't, its purpose, its intention wasn't to be a recovery organization, right?

00:19:35.00
Mike
Right. Mm-hmm.

00:19:37.37
Jim O'Connor
But they had it there and it was quiet.

00:19:37.43
Mike
Right.

00:19:39.83
Jim O'Connor
um And it was kind of like, you know, ah many people, the the the place had been there for, it's been there 80, 90 years. And there are people that lived in the community for 56 years and didn't know there was a men's recovery program there.

00:19:52.07
Mike
Ah.

00:19:52.15
Bill
yeah Well, that's a good thing.

00:19:52.66
Jim O'Connor
Yeah. Yeah. Yes and no. You can, I can say,

00:19:54.78
Mike
Yeah, right.

00:19:55.13
Bill
Well, I mean, i mean good good thing that that there was, it sound I mean that in a positive way, not that they that they would have disrupted it, but if it was it means that they the the people there didn't disrupt things, so they didn't know.

00:20:01.40
Jim O'Connor
Right.

00:20:04.54
Jim O'Connor
Right.

00:20:05.05
Bill
I looked at it that way that nobody would know.

00:20:05.88
Jim O'Connor
And,

00:20:07.25
Bill
They're just, you know, these people are part of the community.

00:20:09.18
Jim O'Connor
And I can tell you something um for myself and and, you know, after I spent a year there and and I spent probably nine months working on the farm and then another three months I lived there while I was working.

00:20:22.42
Jim O'Connor
um We call it on the outside, right? Like we were all locked up, but we was working a paid full-time job.

00:20:24.47
Mike
Right. Right.

00:20:26.39
Bill
right

00:20:26.46
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:20:27.86
Jim O'Connor
um And then I transitioned out into an apartment of my own and I stayed close to the program. And and later I directed it And one of the things ah that you mentioned about, you know, hey, nobody knew we were there. um We worked alongside kids.

00:20:42.43
Jim O'Connor
You know, we worked alongside volunteers in the community and people that came for, you know, our pumpkin fest and, you know, weekend concerts and to to be integrated in the community.

00:20:54.57
Jim O'Connor
Right. Without the stigma, um without, you know, this this giant a you know tattooed on your forehead.

00:20:55.29
Mike
Right.

00:20:56.59
Bill
Right.

00:21:01.33
Mike
Right. Right.

00:21:03.09
Jim O'Connor
um It meant a lot, right? Just to to be, and and to be of service, um just to be able to, you know, we were helping kids onto horses and horseback riding and, um you know, carrying people's pumpkins to their cars and little things like that, you know, meant the world.

00:21:06.49
Mike
Yeah. Yeah. Sure. Sure.

00:21:08.62
Bill
Right.

00:21:20.76
Jim O'Connor
um And it gave it gave me and in the men that were in the program um time to get our legs back, time to kind of develop the difference between want and need.

00:21:21.21
Mike
Yeah.

00:21:31.25
Bill
Right.

00:21:31.35
Mike
Right.

00:21:31.93
Jim O'Connor
um And then really to start taking, you know, one day at a time is all you can do.

00:21:37.28
Mike
Mm hmm. Mm

00:21:37.78
Jim O'Connor
um But I think at some point, you know, if long term sobriety, if we call it durable recovery, you know, and real, pro you know, real growth, if if that's part of your plan, at some point, you got to develop the ability to think forward.

00:21:45.65
Mike
hmm.

00:21:54.17
Mike
Right.

00:21:54.81
Jim O'Connor
um you know, past today and tomorrow.

00:21:57.07
Mike
Mm hmm.

00:21:57.85
Jim O'Connor
And so while you can't do more than the best you can in a given day, um it takes time to get past that survival instinct. Like, where am I going to get my next drink? How am I going to steal food?

00:22:08.74
Mike
Mm hmm.

00:22:09.08
Jim O'Connor
um You know, how much money can I buy with it?

00:22:09.08
Bill
Right.

00:22:12.72
Jim O'Connor
How much booze can I buy with this much money? um and And to really think like, all right, I need to learn how to save a little bit. I need to learn, um you know, how to...

00:22:23.80
Jim O'Connor
really look towards long-term goals and sacrifice, you know, my immediate feelings and thoughts um to get where I actually want to be.

00:22:30.01
Mike
Mm hmm.

00:22:33.11
Jim O'Connor
And, and this program gave me that time. um And it gave you you, know, it had structure too. You know, you get up, you, I said, when I got onto this program, um it was the first time in my life.

00:22:39.54
Mike
Sure.

00:22:45.62
Jim O'Connor
I said, don't give me suggestions. I have fucked up every suggestion possible. Tell me exactly what to do I'll do it.

00:22:50.39
Mike
since Right.

00:22:51.93
Bill
Right?

00:22:52.12
Jim O'Connor
I don't i don't care anymore.

00:22:53.52
Mike
Mm hmm.

00:22:54.01
Bill
Right?

00:22:54.46
Jim O'Connor
And the the best way I can put it is um if you told me to come in and dig a six foot ditch on Monday, I do it. And if you come me on Tuesday, now fill it in.

00:23:05.24
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:23:05.78
Jim O'Connor
I'd shrug and be like, whatever. Anytime before that, I'd be like, why the fuck did you tell me to dig it?

00:23:07.66
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:23:08.25
Bill
ah

00:23:10.26
Mike
Right.

00:23:10.81
Jim O'Connor
um And then you realize it doesn't matter. I have to show up at work today anyway.

00:23:13.11
Bill
Right?

00:23:13.08
Mike
Yeah. Mm-hmm.

00:23:15.33
Jim O'Connor
It just doesn't matter anymore. And Mike, you started by talking about the solution, right?

00:23:21.50
Mike
Right.

00:23:22.17
Jim O'Connor
Like that's what in, in one of my favorite things, even as a counselor, um you know, the four step has us look back and and share things with a ah sponsor in five and six. But, you know, i often said like, what if I told you we could spend, um i don't know, year, two years more in counseling, talking about why, but what if I told you that whether we figure that out or not, what you have to do next is the same.

00:23:47.97
Mike
Right. Right.

00:23:49.72
Jim O'Connor
Right.

00:23:49.75
Mike
Yeah, absolutely.

00:23:50.00
Jim O'Connor
Like we could we could figure it out.

00:23:51.03
Mike
Uh-huh.

00:23:51.68
Jim O'Connor
We could unravel this whole thing. And when we get to the end, what you have to do is exactly the same thing. So we could go through those motions if you want, or we can get to it.

00:23:56.82
Mike
Right.

00:24:00.60
Mike
Yeah, they exactly. Exactly. I mean, we've talked about it on here, you know, muddying the water. I mean, right now the water is clear. Yes, we could go dig down and and get the water all murky again, but why? It's cleared out. Let's just fucking keep doing what we're doing. Yeah, absolutely.

00:24:18.20
Jim O'Connor
Yeah, get out, like, you know, we have the the, you know, our little motto for the Second Story Ranch and, and you know, when I was directing guys is you get out, is you make your bed in the morning and then it's boot boots on, let's go.

00:24:30.58
Mike
okay Yeah.

00:24:33.05
Bill
Right.

00:24:33.27
Jim O'Connor
Right?

00:24:33.39
Bill
Right.

00:24:33.71
Jim O'Connor
Like, that's just it.

00:24:34.07
Mike
Yeah.

00:24:35.11
Jim O'Connor
Like, we can't, you know, sit on the end of the bed with our head in our hands wondering if I'm going to go to work or not today. Like, you got to be, like, let's go.

00:24:41.59
Bill
Right.

00:24:41.85
Mike
is it okay Yeah.

00:24:44.12
Jim O'Connor
um And once you start that and you just get it in motion, you know If you've got the supports you need, if you have you know at least the minimum resources you need, it just gets easy.

00:24:54.14
Mike
Right.

00:24:54.71
Jim O'Connor
you know you I think the line was, you know things don't get easier, we get stronger.

00:24:55.35
Mike
Yeah.

00:24:59.64
Mike
Yeah, exactly.

00:24:59.99
Bill
yeah Right.

00:25:00.44
Mike
Yeah. we We start working that muscle and the more we work it, the stronger it gets. and Absolutely. Yeah.

00:25:07.62
Bill
Right. And Jim, you mentioned ah a couple of things in the the first one was about the the one day at a time thing. And that was that was a really difficult thing for me because I was always this. I was an unrealistic dreamer.

00:25:19.15
Bill
I had a lot of dreams and it never never did anything about it.

00:25:20.50
Mike
Yeah.

00:25:23.23
Bill
You know, I said, you know, that everything you read in the books, I was the the barstool dreamer in a barstool, you know, a maker, whatever it was. All the things I was going to do happened on a barstool, not literally, but, you know, same concept.

00:25:35.44
Bill
And when you know when when you first get sober and it's the one day at a time, and I understood that and you're living that. We were in ah a sober living facility and around safe places and all those sort of things.

00:25:46.15
Bill
But like you said, when you get into outside work and making that transition between realizing that i can I can live one day at a time, but I also can make goals. I can talk about my future.

00:25:57.48
Bill
It's okay. It's not against the rules for me to make a plan for next week or next month or next year. I just can't focus on everything. I need to live in the moment and build my life based on what I can do today.

00:26:08.40
Bill
But of course, I've got to have goals. Of course, I've got to look forward. But then what you just said now is sitting on the on the end of the end of the bed. wonder if you're going to work and wonder what your future is going to look like and in whatever.

00:26:18.92
Bill
I love that. Make your bed fucking boots on the ground and get to work, you know?

00:26:22.51
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:26:23.13
Bill
um But then the other thing, and you mentioned it you know early and then you kind of capped it off a a few minutes ago and Mike was talking about the muddying of the waters. And you know neither one of us have anything against therapy.

00:26:33.21
Bill
But the biggest thing that is and I don't even know if it's frustration, it's ah I don't understand the focus more these days, probably in the last three, four handful of years, whatever it is.

00:26:33.61
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:26:43.06
Bill
that it seems like, and I listen to a lot of sober podcasts and a lot of the podcast hosts and people, everyone needs, it feels this need to pinpoint, okay, the reason I'm here is because of this one event.

00:26:57.24
Bill
And let's find this one event that, that made me the way that I am.

00:26:57.70
Jim O'Connor
Hmm.

00:27:01.08
Bill
And I, you said earlier, i had some bad years, but they didn't shape my life. I also had some good years, you know, my childhood childhood, Mine included, Mike's included. We all had some shitty times in our childhood and in our, in our teen years or whatever, you know, but that didn't necessarily shape our lives. Maybe part of it, whatever, but why muddy the waters now? Life's pretty goddamn good. We're all sitting here having a wonderful conversation. And then on top of that is I don't want to dig up.

00:27:27.51
Bill
I don't know if I need therapy, I'll go get fucking therapy, but I don't want to make a problem for myself today. Yeah.

00:27:33.98
Jim O'Connor
Yeah. And, and, you know, I, I still, I believe for a lot of reasons that the 12 steps aside from, you know, aren't, it's not just, you know, some sort of membership program or Bible to me or whatever is, as a counselor, I think that they're, you know, what I would call one of the best treatment modalities, the way to get through things, because it's got a beginning, a middle and an end, and then you can take it with the, with you where you go.

00:27:53.74
Mike
Right. Mm hmm.

00:27:55.85
Bill
Right.

00:27:58.04
Jim O'Connor
And I think,

00:27:58.48
Mike
Right.

00:27:59.61
Jim O'Connor
that that therapy stuff that you're talking about, I think the 12 steps can address a lot of that and in in ah in a time sensitive way, right?

00:28:04.15
Bill
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:28:04.27
Mike
Mm hmm. Right.

00:28:08.76
Jim O'Connor
That doesn't go on forever.

00:28:09.21
Mike
Right. Yeah.

00:28:10.68
Jim O'Connor
and And the best way I can describe that is, um as a counselor, is is if I look at two a two columns and I look at character defects and resentments, right?

00:28:21.53
Jim O'Connor
And if i could if i If I were a therapist, I could rephrase that and I could take resentments and you say, resentments are, tell me all the ways in which you were made to feel like a victim.

00:28:35.16
Bill
right

00:28:36.41
Jim O'Connor
Right. And so now what I'll tell you, though, is from zero to 18, there might be ah in someone's life a lot of things and they might be very legitimate.

00:28:44.34
Bill
Sure.

00:28:44.31
Mike
Sure.

00:28:45.91
Jim O'Connor
Like children don't have agency.

00:28:46.07
Mike
Right.

00:28:47.63
Jim O'Connor
They don't have a lot of authority.

00:28:48.22
Mike
Right.

00:28:50.03
Jim O'Connor
They don't have ah the kinds of choices. They can't control the stuff that's happening to them. And often they can't just run away into, you know, a seven or eight year old who's being abused can't just like run away.

00:28:56.66
Mike
Right. Yeah. Yeah.

00:29:00.34
Jim O'Connor
Right.

00:29:00.60
Mike
Right.

00:29:01.21
Jim O'Connor
And so there are, there are in times in people's lives where they really are made to feel like victims.

00:29:06.99
Mike
Mm hmm. Mm

00:29:08.60
Jim O'Connor
Now, the second column is the character defects. I would say, okay, these character defects um that come with attendant to alcoholism and addiction, lying, um infidelity, stealing, cheating, all these things, you know, manipulation.

00:29:25.08
Jim O'Connor
um

00:29:25.05
Mike
hmm.

00:29:26.20
Jim O'Connor
These all the ways you've made a victim out of others.

00:29:29.18
Mike
right

00:29:29.56
Bill
Right. Right.

00:29:30.68
Jim O'Connor
And so there's a balance sheet there, right? All the ways in which I've made to feel like a victim, well, there might be a lot there. And hey, tell me all the ways you've made a victim out of other people.

00:29:38.26
Mike
right right yeah right yeah

00:29:39.16
Jim O'Connor
And when you look, and that's really all of your therapy history, right? it's That's it. And so when you get to the point where you've kind of done that accounting, I think a simple question is how long do you want to feel like either?

00:29:46.17
Bill
Right.

00:29:53.53
Mike
yeah i hate

00:29:55.86
Bill
ah That's a good point.

00:29:55.90
Jim O'Connor
Right. Either how long do you want to continue to be made to feel like a victim?

00:29:56.74
Bill
Yeah.

00:29:56.79
Mike
yeah

00:30:00.58
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:30:01.18
Jim O'Connor
And how long do you want to make the victim out of others?

00:30:03.64
Mike
Yeah.

00:30:05.53
Jim O'Connor
And that's it. There's a moment where that's the boots on. Let's go moment in therapy.

00:30:09.42
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:30:10.73
Jim O'Connor
And it's when, you know, you you draw a personal line in the sand and say, yeah, that was before.

00:30:10.84
Mike
Right.

00:30:16.65
Jim O'Connor
And that's the thing that sobriety, I think, you know, one of the most wonderful things that

00:30:17.96
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:30:23.93
Jim O'Connor
in the the that The greatest gift, I think, of of all that sobriety has given me is I have a date line in the sand of my life that says, there was me up to this date.

00:30:28.73
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:30:31.77
Mike
Yep.

00:30:35.61
Jim O'Connor
And ever since that date, I've been different.

00:30:36.33
Mike
Uh-huh. Yes.

00:30:39.58
Jim O'Connor
Right. And so, you know, I often, people talk about, I need to forgive myself.

00:30:40.22
Mike
Yeah.

00:30:43.92
Jim O'Connor
I need this. There's all kinds of things that, that I won't always get into, but but when it comes to that dateline in the sand and therapy with recovery, I can, and sobriety, I can say, you know, I don't know that I can live with who I was because of who I am today.

00:30:45.53
Mike
listen this is

00:30:58.55
Mike
Right.

00:30:58.72
Bill
Oh, God, yeah.

00:30:58.87
Mike
Okay.

00:30:59.23
Bill
Right, right.

00:30:59.74
Jim O'Connor
Right. And there's no, I went to therapy for years and I always thought, um I always thought that by sitting with a therapist, right.

00:31:00.71
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:31:09.08
Jim O'Connor
and this is pre-sobriety, right? That that i we would talk and I would talk and then he would say things. And this, like what was inside me was imagine like a giant twisted ball of yarn.

00:31:26.33
Jim O'Connor
And that through this process, this the thread was just going to get pulled on and would all come out straight and I would be okay. And I could go back to the bar.

00:31:36.66
Mike
right.

00:31:36.82
Bill
but

00:31:37.14
Mike
right

00:31:38.10
Jim O'Connor
Right. That would be how that's what therapy was supposed to do.

00:31:38.71
Bill
yeah

00:31:39.77
Mike
is he

00:31:40.62
Jim O'Connor
Right.

00:31:40.73
Mike
Sure. Yeah.

00:31:42.17
Jim O'Connor
And I did a lot of therapy and came to realize, like, that was never going to happen, as especially as long as I was drinking.

00:31:47.79
Bill
Right. Right.

00:31:50.01
Jim O'Connor
Like, there's just no world in which things are ever OK as long as I drink use.

00:31:50.12
Mike
Yeah.

00:31:57.52
Jim O'Connor
There's just it's an impossibility.

00:31:57.85
Mike
All right. Yep.

00:32:00.41
Jim O'Connor
Um, so, I mean, that's, you know, a lot of therapists work. I know a lot of really good therapists. I know really good ones and behind the scenes, um, they will know, they will, they will talk and they will know I'm working with this client who drinks and does drugs and keeps coming to therapy and it's never going to get better.

00:32:06.69
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:32:16.71
Mike
Right.

00:32:20.66
Jim O'Connor
Yeah.

00:32:20.89
Mike
Right. Mm-hmm.

00:32:21.88
Jim O'Connor
Like we'll talk and, you know, they hope to get them to the point where, you know, where they lay it down. But um yeah, until, until you get, you know, make a decision to change um all the therapy in the world, isn't really going to do much.

00:32:33.18
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:32:36.49
Mike
Right. Mm-hmm.

00:32:37.91
Bill
Well, and I don't remember where I heard this. And remind remind me, Mike, once I say it, if it's something that either we talked to somebody about, I don't remember where I heard it. I know I didn't make this up or that's the only thing I ever fucking know. Is it in somebody, somebody had said that the things that happened to you and you talked about, Jim, the you know, a child not being able to make decisions and all a certain things, certain traumas.

00:32:47.46
Mike
Right.

00:32:57.67
Bill
There are certain things that happened to you to a certain point in your life that that, you know, happened to you that you had no, you had no way to stop. You know, those things, those things happened and you had no, no say in it whatsoever.

00:33:08.84
Bill
But there also comes a point in your life when um those things are your responsibility. So those, those things in the past were not your fault, but fixing them is your responsibility.

00:33:19.45
Bill
You know, and I don't remember where I heard that.

00:33:19.51
Jim O'Connor
Yeah.

00:33:20.97
Bill
Do you, does that sound familiar, Mike?

00:33:22.20
Mike
yeah now I mean, I agree with it, but it doesn't sound familiar.

00:33:23.26
Jim O'Connor
Yeah. And

00:33:23.83
Bill
Okay. Okay.

00:33:27.10
Bill
I might have seen it on a goddamn TV show for all I know.

00:33:27.13
Jim O'Connor
so...

00:33:29.34
Bill
I don't, I don't, all this stuff mixes in my head or somebody might've said it on a, these audio, but who knows?

00:33:29.34
Mike
Right. Yeah, right. Mm-hmm.

00:33:34.14
Bill
But I, I'm like, God, that I like that. That makes sense. You know?

00:33:36.86
Jim O'Connor
You know, I, I, and, and I want to be sensitive to this. I worked with a lot of people, um but who have what' what are called high adverse childhood experiences.

00:33:45.37
Bill
Well, sure.

00:33:45.50
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:33:45.94
Jim O'Connor
And, um, there's a, there's a ah questionnaire. It's only 10 questions. And it, there are questions like, was there mental health issues in the house? Were you abused?

00:33:55.22
Mike
Right.

00:33:55.86
Jim O'Connor
Were you sexually abused? Were you neglected? Were you ever hungry? Did anyone in your family, in your household go to prison? um Was there, you know, violence or, you know, all these things that, that point to like growing up in a very, in a really unsafe environment.

00:34:09.82
Jim O'Connor
Right.

00:34:10.04
Mike
if

00:34:10.27
Bill
Sure.

00:34:10.87
Jim O'Connor
And those, those experiences have lasting impacts on people. And, but one of the,

00:34:16.28
Bill
No doubt.

00:34:19.64
Jim O'Connor
big issues is that people take those forward and without, you know, without consciously knowing it sometimes, but, you know, meaning to they're, they're recreating those things, those hurts, um, and those wrongs in the victimhood and and making victims out of others.

00:34:35.03
Jim O'Connor
They do it over and over and over again. It's this repeating cycle.

00:34:37.28
Mike
Right. if

00:34:38.49
Jim O'Connor
And i think, you know, I've said, I've said a lot that, you know, there's to get in getting sober and in wanting to make a change. There's an awful lot of responsibility.

00:34:50.33
Mike
Yes.

00:34:50.58
Jim O'Connor
And, and the big, one of the biggest ones to me is all those things that weren't your fault and all those things that you couldn't control and all those things that hurt, um you know, I am so sorry for, and, and they should have never happened.

00:35:03.20
Mike
Mm hmm. Mm

00:35:06.02
Bill
Right.

00:35:06.62
Jim O'Connor
However, now, you know,

00:35:09.50
Mike
hmm.

00:35:10.01
Jim O'Connor
Right.

00:35:10.34
Mike
Yeah.

00:35:11.06
Jim O'Connor
So it's, what are you going to do with that knowledge now? And, and so before, you know, and you guys know, like when I was in active alcoholism, I'm not making a lot of, there there's so many things that were ah going on.

00:35:25.04
Jim O'Connor
The reality that was hidden to me, you know, I wasn't making good conscious decisions on all the best information.

00:35:26.87
Mike
Mm hmm.

00:35:31.40
Jim O'Connor
It was whatever was filtered through $10 bottle of vodka and the, you know,

00:35:32.08
Mike
Right.

00:35:32.15
Bill
ah

00:35:36.23
Mike
Mm hmm.

00:35:37.11
Jim O'Connor
but you know, all my worst thoughts and feelings. um

00:35:40.66
Mike
Right.

00:35:41.82
Jim O'Connor
But when I got sober and I had some people kind of point some things out, i was like, all right, now that's the knowledge is my responsibility to do something about. and And now that I know if I continue to go do those things and continue to make a mess of things, there's no one left to blame.

00:35:49.80
Mike
Yeah.

00:35:57.98
Mike
Right.

00:35:58.04
Jim O'Connor
Like that's on me now.

00:35:58.20
Bill
yeah Right. Right.

00:35:59.52
Jim O'Connor
Like I, and, and so that's, you know, I,

00:35:59.80
Mike
oh absolutely. Absolutely.

00:36:04.52
Jim O'Connor
I've worked with lots of guys um who have backgrounds that are deeply disturbing and and and unbelievably tragic, really.

00:36:14.72
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:36:15.45
Jim O'Connor
And the best of, it like the guys that are doing so well, every, to a person said, i had to stop seeing myself as a victim, right?

00:36:15.52
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:36:26.74
Bill
Right.

00:36:28.23
Jim O'Connor
I had i had to stop that.

00:36:28.28
Mike
Right. Yeah.

00:36:30.62
Jim O'Connor
And when they saw themselves as a survivor and somebody who wanted to move on. And and one of my one of the best ways i could I could, I remember saying to a guy who had one of those histories, I said, you know, this is awful, but let me ask you, how long do you want to be dominated by it?

00:36:40.42
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:36:44.76
Mike
Right.

00:36:46.44
Jim O'Connor
Because you right now are dominated by the first, you know, a few years that happened between, you know, seven and 17, and now you're 40.

00:36:48.76
Mike
Right.

00:36:56.63
Mike
Right. right

00:36:58.10
Jim O'Connor
How's that working out?

00:36:59.16
Mike
Yeah, exactly. And I mean, you know, it's again, couple things, ah you know, First of all, sit right here, look around. is it happening right now?

00:37:09.91
Mike
Okay, then.

00:37:09.98
Jim O'Connor
ah hundred percent

00:37:10.81
Mike
Yeah, right. you know And I mean, one of the hugest gifts of this program is the freedom it gives us. And the freedom that we have comes from taking 100% responsibility for our fucking lives. you know that's That's where the freedom comes from. am responsible for everything good and bad in my life.

00:37:32.69
Mike
and And that's the freedom. Nothing has dominion over me anymore. Not the substances, not people, places, and things. You know, me, me, I am responsible. If I'm having a fucking bad day, that's my fault.

00:37:45.05
Mike
If I'm having a great day, that's my fault.

00:37:48.34
Jim O'Connor
Well, and and and in you know in my experience, one of the one of the gifts as well, though, is um recognizing that, like, I mean, really, before you come to the program or program of sobriety and recovery and growth, um I think that, and it happens so often in our society, like, people think they yeah that who they are is a collection of their their immediate thoughts and feelings.

00:38:12.79
Mike
yeah

00:38:13.82
Jim O'Connor
And and if you that's a dangerous thing.

00:38:16.57
Mike
Oh, fuck yeah.

00:38:17.56
Jim O'Connor
way to live because they're all transient, right?

00:38:17.72
Bill
oh Right? right

00:38:19.16
Mike
Yeah. Yeah, right.

00:38:21.69
Jim O'Connor
Like, and I'll say like, remember that time you felt a certain way and then ah it never changed?

00:38:22.30
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:38:27.77
Mike
a

00:38:29.37
Jim O'Connor
remember No, that didn't happen. Same thing with the the thoughts.

00:38:31.03
Mike
No.

00:38:32.01
Jim O'Connor
Like, remember the time you thought that thing and you've never thought different.

00:38:32.47
Mike
Right. Absolutely.

00:38:35.73
Jim O'Connor
Like, and, and so, you know, recognizing that, that I can be a witness to my thoughts and feelings, it's how I behave that I'm really responsible for.

00:38:37.15
Mike
Yeah.

00:38:42.81
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:38:46.92
Jim O'Connor
Right.

00:38:47.13
Mike
absolutely yeah

00:38:48.41
Jim O'Connor
um And I have to act rightly despite my thoughts and feelings.

00:38:53.43
Bill
my my cause Mike always says, he goes, my thoughts are still all kinds of fucked up. I just don't i just don't act out of these days.

00:38:59.70
Jim O'Connor
Well, that's it. You're allowed to think you're allowed to think fucking anything.

00:39:00.69
Mike
Yeah.

00:39:00.95
Bill
Right. Right.

00:39:01.71
Mike
Yeah.

00:39:01.75
Bill
Yeah.

00:39:02.49
Jim O'Connor
Anything.

00:39:02.84
Mike
Oh, yeah. Right. I have all kinds of right awful fucking thoughts all the time.

00:39:04.25
Jim O'Connor
anything yeah Totally allowed. Like, so okay.

00:39:08.38
Mike
Yeah.

00:39:08.86
Bill
ah

00:39:10.48
Jim O'Connor
Like often hilarious, right?

00:39:11.01
Mike
Uh-huh. Yes.

00:39:12.86
Bill
right

00:39:12.88
Jim O'Connor
Like yeah you're, you know, and, and, but it's like, yeah, no, you can't do that.

00:39:13.19
Mike
Yes.

00:39:18.25
Jim O'Connor
And you really can't say it either.

00:39:18.88
Mike
Yeah. Right.

00:39:21.43
Jim O'Connor
I mean, you can, but then you're left with, you're responsible for the consequence after that.

00:39:22.71
Bill
i yeah

00:39:22.81
Mike
You can.

00:39:25.78
Mike
Yeah, exactly.

00:39:26.17
Jim O'Connor
And,

00:39:26.33
Bill
Right.

00:39:26.90
Mike
Right. Yeah. Well, it's like getting loaded. Yeah. I'm going to feel good for a fucking couple of minutes, but then what?

00:39:32.92
Jim O'Connor
Well, and and that you know that's the thing that I think is an issue. It's a huge issue for everybody um in in so in active addiction and in and to recognize in sobriety.

00:39:40.93
Mike
Mm

00:39:43.05
Jim O'Connor
I think it's actually an issue um that our society is dealing with at large sometimes. Yeah.

00:39:48.98
Mike
hmm. Not enough.

00:39:51.06
Jim O'Connor
is, well, no, is that like, Hey man, you can do a lot of what you want and say a lot of what you want, but there are consequences like feeling, you know, not everybody has to agree with you and feelings are going to get hurt.

00:39:59.86
Mike
Yeah.

00:40:00.21
Bill
Right.

00:40:03.60
Mike
hmm.

00:40:04.38
Jim O'Connor
Like you might lose a job.

00:40:05.27
Mike
Right.

00:40:06.33
Jim O'Connor
And, and, and so you start deciding like, what's more important that I constantly express myself or that I pay my rent.

00:40:06.34
Mike
Yeah.

00:40:10.82
Mike
Mm hmm. Right. Exactly.

00:40:17.82
Jim O'Connor
Right. Like maybe I have to learn how to manage um those thoughts and feelings in a way that doesn't have negative consequences in my life in the shared world.

00:40:27.54
Mike
Yeah, right. Yeah. For me and the people around me. Absolutely. Yeah, right. it' I had a friend a long time ago. She called it gratuitous honesty.

00:40:37.66
Mike
Right.

00:40:38.01
Bill
but

00:40:38.34
Mike
Yeah, right. And I mean, it's, you know, in a great quote that I learned in sobriety was, you know, honesty without compassion is cruelty.

00:40:46.81
Bill
Mm-hmm.

00:40:46.87
Jim O'Connor
Yeah.

00:40:47.54
Mike
Yeah, right. So, you know, yes, it's a program of honesty, blah, blah, blah, blah. Yeah, I can be fucking real honest all the time. Yeah, where's that going to get me? Nowhere.

00:40:56.30
Jim O'Connor
Well, well, and

00:40:56.37
Mike
Yeah, it's, you know, hurt feelings. I'm going to, yeah, I can't point out how stupid you are. Not you, but.

00:41:02.74
Jim O'Connor
No, and you know, what were what we're what we're talking about is something that I try to work hard with and in the program um program that I ran and the in the firm program the recovery program we're developing.

00:41:04.12
Bill
hey

00:41:04.31
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:41:14.33
Jim O'Connor
I try to talk a lot about executive function and that's that's your cognitive ability to delay gratification, to think forward, um to put to accept short-term pain for long-term gain.

00:41:17.85
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:41:28.86
Jim O'Connor
and um And to think through those consequences about who's gonna get hurt, you know not just immediate consequence, but a second or third or fourth tier effect and what are unintended consequences possibly.

00:41:36.62
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:41:39.70
Mike
Right.

00:41:41.72
Jim O'Connor
And and Bill, you were you were talking about the one day at a time versus having goals and planning.

00:41:42.02
Mike
Yeah.

00:41:46.83
Bill
Right.

00:41:47.22
Jim O'Connor
um And I think it it takes time you know to come out of, i mean, in in active addiction, it's so selfish.

00:41:56.85
Mike
Yes.

00:41:57.18
Jim O'Connor
It's so self-centered. um The short-term thinking, just what I was saying, right? Like, hey, man, this is a six-month program where everybody's going to give you everything you need, a job, a place to live, friends, the program, counseling.

00:42:07.71
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:42:11.37
Jim O'Connor
And you're like, yeah, I don't think I have that kind of time. Right? That's a lack of executive function. That's ah that's my inability to like know what's best for me, too.

00:42:17.02
Mike
yes

00:42:17.31
Bill
Right.

00:42:21.46
Jim O'Connor
And, and one day at a time is you know, I used to I'll talk about in those first months, especially like going to bed at night and you can't sleep because when you close your eyes, a movie montage of all the worst shit that you ever did never happened is just rolling through your mind.

00:42:42.74
Mike
Right.

00:42:43.00
Jim O'Connor
And my answer to that early on was, did I do everything I can today?

00:42:47.48
Bill
Right, right.

00:42:47.56
Mike
Yeah.

00:42:47.93
Jim O'Connor
And that's it. Um, But when you start making plans, right, and you decide like, okay, I got to think through these things, making making low risk decisions.

00:42:59.93
Jim O'Connor
um And that low risk is like, you know, i if in baseball terms, I'd say like, you know, you come out of you're a week sober, or you know, you get out of 28 day program and you you need to hit a bunch of home runs.

00:43:13.46
Jim O'Connor
to get everything back.

00:43:13.88
Bill
and

00:43:14.18
Jim O'Connor
And I'm like, you need to take a pitch and, and, but or walk or bunt, like just take four balls and go to first.

00:43:18.61
Bill
Right.

00:43:21.69
Mike
Yeah, exactly.

00:43:22.36
Jim O'Connor
um

00:43:22.49
Mike
Well, a buddy of mine, he used to say, you don't walk 10 miles into the woods, turn it around, take two steps and expect to be out of the woods.

00:43:30.14
Bill
Yeah.

00:43:30.48
Jim O'Connor
Yeah, that's, that's it. And, and so for all those things, I, you know, my experience tells me that people need more time than many people think, um,

00:43:32.31
Bill
Yeah.

00:43:32.47
Mike
Yeah.

00:43:42.24
Mike
Yeah.

00:43:42.58
Jim O'Connor
um Even the person themselves, it takes longer.

00:43:44.61
Mike
Yup. Oh yeah.

00:43:45.75
Jim O'Connor
um And they need more direction, which means, you know, close or constant contact with other people. um And some...

00:43:57.34
Jim O'Connor
You know, i you know, when I talk about a higher power, some sense that like, this isn't, you know, we're, we're all alive. Life is sacred. I'm another part. Like, if I believe your life is sacred, I would never tell you to go fucking kill yourself, go hurt yourself.

00:44:12.20
Mike
Right.

00:44:12.81
Bill
Right.

00:44:13.20
Jim O'Connor
Why is it okay for me to do that?

00:44:15.03
Mike
Yes.

00:44:15.73
Jim O'Connor
It's not.

00:44:16.64
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:44:16.70
Jim O'Connor
And it's not because I'm special. It's because I'm part of.

00:44:19.48
Mike
Yeah, right.

00:44:21.10
Bill
Right.

00:44:21.21
Jim O'Connor
And in learning that takes time and connection, you can't do that on your own.

00:44:21.21
Mike
part Part of something bigger than yourself.

00:44:27.09
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:44:27.87
Bill
Well, you know, back to the the planning thing too. And like you said, you know, obviously it takes time and ah both Mike and I are coming up on, we're rounding the corner on 16 years. And to this, to this point still, i there's some, I would consider relatively major decisions I've made over the last couple of years.

00:44:35.77
Jim O'Connor
Wow, that's great.

00:44:45.27
Bill
And one of them was to, you know, start traveling. I wanted to to travel around and, um you know, live in Airbnb properties while I worked and this and that. And, You know, I sat down with I talked to Mike.

00:44:56.87
Bill
I talked to my sister. I talked to my kids. I talked to my ex-wife, who I get along with now, because at the time my my son was, you know, a little c he's 25. But I mean, you know, still, I was around in the area.

00:45:07.96
Bill
I'm like, this is what I want to do. Is it fucking nuts or is this is this OK if I can afford it? You know, i want to make sure that, you know, I I did. I was trying to look at the whole thing. I'm like, you know, part of it, I want to be there because this rest responsibility things we have or we've these feelings that I have. know you You fuck over all these people over all these years and now you're there all the time. Anytime people need you. Is it OK for me to have some time to myself? Not really, but sort of, you know, but I sat down and everyone's like, yeah, that's cool. it sounds like a great idea. And then, you know, we're we're talking about our sister and I are talking about doing this, this other business venture. And, you know, she and I talked and we talked to Mike about it. And I mean, this is one of those things that I don't make.

00:45:49.05
Bill
I don't make these major decisions even to this day on my own because I i think I'm making the right decision. But sometimes I need to get it out of my head, make sure I thought through everything. Because two things.

00:46:00.09
Bill
I respect the people in my life. That's number one. But I don't want to fuck it up, you know. I i mean, before I, it's like, whatever, you know, you roll the goddamn dice and if it were, if it works out, it works out, you know?

00:46:09.27
Jim O'Connor
Oh my God. It was, that was part of the fun, right? Like every night I stay, I was, I stayed at the bar every night.

00:46:11.99
Mike
Right.

00:46:12.09
Bill
Yeah. I mean, yeah. The half the fun.

00:46:15.82
Jim O'Connor
Cause I'm like, I don't know what'll happen. Like this could be, you know, like if I just went, if I just went home at closing time and that's all that happened, i'd be like, yeah, it wasn't that great.

00:46:17.62
Mike
Right. I might miss something.

00:46:19.00
Bill
Right.

00:46:23.52
Jim O'Connor
Like, I mean, you're wanting something to kick off. Like, like so Bill, let me ask you something.

00:46:26.65
Bill
Yeah.

00:46:26.96
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:46:28.72
Jim O'Connor
You talked about it rolling around 16 years and now you're, you're asked about that time. When I hear you say that I'm, Part of what I hear, at least, you know, that connects to my story is It was years before I felt confident that I could do something like that.

00:46:50.06
Jim O'Connor
Like, you know, yeah, you can travel around. Yeah, you'll be like, you know, if I'm your friend or somebody be like you, dude, you'll be fine. Like this podcast is great.

00:46:56.78
Bill
Oh

00:46:58.31
Jim O'Connor
You can call in from anywhere. There's meetings all over the country. Like, you'll be great.

00:47:01.52
Mike
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

00:47:02.83
Jim O'Connor
Like, go ahead. But but yeah I also hear that it's not trepidation, but, you know, you're always a little like, Hey, i I'm not doing, it like, i i want to do this. I think I'm good. It should be fine.

00:47:16.15
Jim O'Connor
But I just don't want anybody to have it. There had to be any backlash, right? Like, you know, and and if people aren't okay with it, I can put it off.

00:47:21.24
Bill
oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that, that is that,

00:47:26.01
Bill
Well, and here's the thing. If people had an issue with it, I want to hear what the problem is. And do I have an explanation for it? Do I have a way to explain? No, I understand where you're coming from, but it's this. And then does that change their mind or am I still completely fucked up?

00:47:39.25
Bill
You know, and Mike is usually the the first person I'll go to with any sort of life decisions. I mean, our sister, you know, she's a huge supporter of, you know, anyone in in recovery and all those sort of things.

00:47:50.26
Bill
And so she's that secondary thing.

00:47:50.51
Mike
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

00:47:51.94
Bill
But there's there's something about talking to somebody, especially Mike and I, we've known each other literally almost from day one from when we got sober. you know So two things. I know that he will shoot me straight.

00:48:02.92
Bill
He will tell me if I'm wrong. He will tell me if there's a if there's a hole or there's ah you know some sort of piercing in whatever armor I'm building up.

00:48:10.34
Jim O'Connor
Mm-hmm.

00:48:10.44
Bill
Or he may he may offer a suggestion to say, this is cool, but make sure you do this. Something either I didn't think about her I'm like, oh, yeah, i didn't mention that, but of course I'm going to do this.

00:48:20.75
Bill
you know And I still, at this point, I put too much goddamn time, burned too many calories, right, Mike?

00:48:25.69
Mike
Right.

00:48:26.23
Bill
you know to To get to this point in my life, you know I don't want to – granted, I'm still – one of my character defects is still being a people pleaser. I know it.

00:48:35.84
Jim O'Connor
Mm-hmm.

00:48:35.94
Bill
It's ah it's a thing I try i try really hard –

00:48:37.53
Jim O'Connor
i didn't I didn't have that.

00:48:39.10
Bill
But I but I still I still do, you know, and I know where it comes from. And it's again, it's a childhood thing with our mom and all those sort of things. But i I recognize it. But but on top of that, too, is just I still want to make sure that I'm making good decisions and doing something because I don't always I haven't always made the right decisions in recovery.

00:48:57.63
Bill
I'm not perfect. God damn it. You know. And, you know, I want to make sure I'm on that right path.

00:48:59.51
Jim O'Connor
Oh, yeah.

00:49:01.67
Bill
So, yeah, you know that you're right. A little bit of, you know, trepidation and a little bit of am I um absolutely 100 percent. I still need that um validation, right, wrong or indifferent.

00:49:12.39
Bill
I want the support and I want the validation to make sure that, you know, my my life is still in the right direction.

00:49:17.72
Jim O'Connor
Yeah, i i have the same I have a lot of the same same people.

00:49:17.78
Bill
Absolutely. Absolutely.

00:49:22.01
Jim O'Connor
And almost to a man, the the question I get, you know and i'm all you know i'm I'm coming on years. And the question is, are you going to drink? And I'm like, no.

00:49:30.90
Mike
Right.

00:49:31.16
Jim O'Connor
And they're like, then you're fine. Like, that's it.

00:49:33.08
Mike
Yeah, right.

00:49:33.20
Jim O'Connor
Right. Like, and it's mostly like, it's not that you can't do other things wrong, but it's, it's that if you don't drink, you know, my, my people, like, they're not really concerned whether I'm going to like fuck up a business venture or whatever.

00:49:44.85
Jim O'Connor
They're like, maybe, maybe not, whatever.

00:49:46.26
Mike
a

00:49:46.41
Bill
Right.

00:49:46.93
Jim O'Connor
They're like, but are you going to drink? And I'm like, no, they're like, then you're going to be fine.

00:49:48.47
Mike
Right.

00:49:48.71
Bill
Right.

00:49:50.78
Mike
Yeah, one way or another.

00:49:51.05
Bill
Right.

00:49:51.70
Jim O'Connor
And

00:49:51.74
Bill
Well, and yeah, and that, and that is, that is the thing.

00:49:52.76
Jim O'Connor
Yeah.

00:49:54.19
Bill
And it's funny because, uh, and our sister told Mike this, when was she out of your place? Six, eight months ago when she said, yeah, well, you could tell that you can tell that situation, but yeah, go ahead.

00:49:58.65
Mike
Something like that, yeah.

00:50:02.37
Bill
What what she said to you about, about the drinking, the drinking part.

00:50:03.80
Mike
but i don't I don't remember.

00:50:07.10
Mike
Yeah. Right. Mm-hmm.

00:50:07.74
Bill
Oh, okay. Well, I, the story was, yeah, well, they, they were, Kathy went out there.

00:50:09.45
Jim O'Connor
It's a gift.

00:50:10.65
Mike
yeah

00:50:12.82
Bill
She was out there for a, to see a friend's thing or whatever it was. So she stayed with Mike for a night. And apparently there were two guys who were just sitting around shooting the shit, whatever. And Mike brought up something. And then our sister said, she's like, Oh, I don't even worry about you guys getting, you know, drinking or any, anymore.

00:50:26.62
Bill
And Mike's first thought was, cause you, you were like, Ooh, don't tell me that. But then, then that was a comforting thing for you.

00:50:31.03
Mike
right

00:50:32.27
Bill
Right. You know, realizing that, that we don't put that, that burden on people anymore.

00:50:32.66
Mike
yeah

00:50:36.06
Mike
Right, exactly. yeah Yeah, my first thought was, fucking don't tell me that because I'll take advantage of it. Right, but again, that comes back to the thoughts and the feelings and all that stuff.

00:50:41.69
Bill
hey

00:50:44.62
Mike
Yes, my first thought was, don't tell me that, I will take advantage of you. but then But then I realized exactly what it meant. Yes, and it was it was wonderful. she She fucking doesn't worry about me. She trusts me. Oh, my God. Somebody trusts me. But that comes from all of the work that I've put in, all those calories that I've burned.

00:51:06.49
Bill
Right. Yeah. And you know, the, the thing of it is with the, and I've done, I've done a lot of traveling over the last year and a half and, um, gotten to do, I've gotten to do more in the last year and a half than I've done my entire adult life as far as places that I've seen and, and things that I've done.

00:51:07.32
Jim O'Connor
Yeah.

00:51:18.77
Bill
I enjoy hiking. And so I've hit a lot of trails or whatever, but the, the thing of it is that I told Mike about this a number of times on here when we've been talking about it.

00:51:20.08
Jim O'Connor
That's great.

00:51:26.51
Bill
Well, in two things, even, even sober, even at, um, So let's say your place in sobriety, Jim, you know, a handful of almost six, you know, five, six years ago when I was at 10 years, I don't know that I was in the right mindset to do what I'm doing now.

00:51:38.97
Bill
I don't know if I was in the right mindset, you know, to do a lot of things I'm doing today, whether things I did at eight years, was I was i cool at six years? Things I did at 10 or at 12, was I good at 10?

00:51:50.09
Bill
You know mean? You know, so all these things got to the point my kids are at the right point and, you know, the everyone's got their lives settled. That's the other good thing. We've got good, solid people in our lives. So I don't have to I don't have to fucking worry and babysit these people in in our lives.

00:51:59.63
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:52:03.34
Bill
I get good kids with good heads on their shoulders. If they need me, I could be there, but I don't have to babysit them, you know.

00:52:09.88
Jim O'Connor
Yeah.

00:52:09.98
Bill
But the whole point there is just that just all these things in general, um it's it's comforting, you know, to to have that in and especially with whether it's the travel or not.

00:52:21.59
Bill
I have any day of the week, regardless of where I am, how many people I am, I can say I'm going out to the grocery store and I've got the time. I've got the opportunity. I've got the money. I just don't have the desire to drink today.

00:52:33.86
Bill
That's it. I have, I have the ability every fucking day and I, I can, I can sneak out of, that i don't even have to sneak out of the house.

00:52:34.52
Jim O'Connor
Yeah.

00:52:37.71
Mike
Hmm. Right.

00:52:40.86
Mike
right

00:52:40.98
Bill
I don't have to sneak out of any fucking place, you know, but, but the thing of it is, know, when I'm out traveling, I could be in the middle of fucking Arkansas and, you know, sucking down a bottle of whiskey on the porch of a goddamn cabin and nobody's going to fucking know, but I will.

00:52:53.32
Bill
And then Mike and I talk about, okay, so, and this, we, he usually laughs to me about this. Cause I'm like, what if I can hold it together for a handful of days?

00:53:01.37
Jim O'Connor
Okay, so here, I gotta tell you guys this.

00:53:03.10
Bill
Yeah. And then come back to my sister's house and and, and I'll be fine just to go on a binge for five days. That ain't going to happen.

00:53:08.98
Jim O'Connor
I gotta tell you guys this. So I've been, I worked like, I was a philosophy major, English major and a philosophy man minor in college. So I have all these ah esoteric thinking tricks I do.

00:53:19.44
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:53:20.20
Jim O'Connor
ah And in early sobriety, um I was trying to figure out how I could get away drinking like down the road. Like, right, I definitely didn't want to, I couldn't, I couldn't afford to, but I'm like, all right, maybe one day.

00:53:26.90
Mike
Sure.

00:53:27.21
Bill
Hmm.

00:53:27.58
Mike
Sure.

00:53:32.03
Jim O'Connor
And in the two thought experiments, that got me number with the first one was, well, I could drink and probably like, know, definitely no one would know if I just went out to a bar this weekend, I could make an excuse and I could i just go back to work and and know what to know.

00:53:43.17
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:53:45.58
Jim O'Connor
And, and so the next thought was, well, okay, well, the next thing is like I have one of two choices, either tell everyone or start the lie.

00:53:46.10
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:53:55.23
Jim O'Connor
There are not, there is not another option, right?

00:53:55.29
Mike
Right. Yeah.

00:53:58.55
Jim O'Connor
Like it's either, I'm either lying to someone or I'm telling everyone.

00:54:03.71
Bill
Right.

00:54:03.74
Mike
Right.

00:54:04.28
Jim O'Connor
And I did, and both of them sounded awful.

00:54:05.50
Mike
she Yeah, exactly.

00:54:06.24
Jim O'Connor
Like, I'm like, I can't do fucking either one of those things.

00:54:07.18
Mike
I don't want to do either one of those.

00:54:09.00
Jim O'Connor
All right. So then, so I took it further and I was like, so I traveled the world and I, you know, Southeast Asia, I lived in West Africa, Ireland, and Europe all over a few years and as a drunk.

00:54:09.75
Bill
yeah

00:54:21.78
Jim O'Connor
And um I remember I was like, well what if I out like, all right, so my wife, what if I outlive her, my sponsor dies

00:54:30.48
Mike
Mm-hmm. Uh-huh.

00:54:33.02
Bill
but

00:54:33.08
Jim O'Connor
Um, he's older than me. So I lost him and like, and I just kind of like people faded away and I just kind of retired to the coast of Ireland and I could just be this like 80 year old dude sitting, drinking in a pub and it'd be fine.

00:54:35.48
Mike
Sure.

00:54:49.27
Jim O'Connor
And the voice in my head said, you sick fuck for your fantasy to come true. Everyone in your you love in your life has to die.

00:54:56.15
Mike
ahha

00:54:59.03
Mike
right

00:54:59.48
Bill
Right.

00:55:00.92
Jim O'Connor
Like that, I'll never forget you sick fuck. Everyone has to die for your fucking dream to come true.

00:55:05.98
Mike
All

00:55:06.66
Bill
Well, and you know, it's funny is that as you were going through this, I could see the flaws in it, but that that never crossed my mind.

00:55:08.25
Jim O'Connor
Like that's.

00:55:12.91
Bill
Even though you just explained that, that never crossed my mind that, oh yeah, everyone in my life's got to fucking die for me to be sitting in a pub like that.

00:55:18.68
Jim O'Connor
Right.

00:55:18.73
Bill
Yeah.

00:55:19.04
Jim O'Connor
Like that's the only way it works without me hurting everyone or lying.

00:55:23.35
Mike
right.

00:55:23.58
Bill
Yeah, and and I'm sure anyone, any normal person is probably going, well, Jesus Christ, your wife's dead, your sponsor's dead, and this person's dead. Any normal person's thinking that part of it, and I'm just like, I'm like, yeah, could you get away with it?

00:55:33.90
Bill
could You're sitting in a pub. you're I mean, I'm thinking all this stuff sounds perfectly fine.

00:55:35.92
Mike
Sure. Yeah. Yeah.

00:55:36.41
Jim O'Connor
Right? Like it's kind of working out a little bit.

00:55:37.59
Mike
o sure yeah

00:55:38.85
Jim O'Connor
You're like, yeah, except for the part. where everyone has to go.

00:55:41.50
Bill
that Yeah, everyone's got to die.

00:55:43.29
Jim O'Connor
um And that's really just it, right?

00:55:44.42
Bill
Yeah.

00:55:45.73
Jim O'Connor
Like, so, you know, in my life today, when I, you know, I i have no desire to drink. it's It's been lifted. I'm not, I'm not gonna, but um you know, by the grace God and doing what I'm, what I do daily.

00:55:57.50
Jim O'Connor
um But yeah, like I don't, I don't want to tell everyone I love I drank and I don't want to lie. And that's, it comes down to that's, those are the only two options.

00:56:04.50
Bill
No.

00:56:07.88
Bill
Right. Well, why don't, why don't we do this? I mean, talking about, uh, obviously you just mentioned what you do today. And, um, I mean, this seems, what do you think, Mike? is Quick break.

00:56:15.48
Mike
Yeah, absolutely. Yes, we will take a quick break and we will come back and find out exactly what Jim is doing today right after these words from our sponsors.

00:56:35.32
Bill
All right, everyone. Welcome back. And okay, so we were, I mean, we're just having such a great time here talking that, you know, is it's funny, you know, we, and again, we don't have a lot of structure.

00:56:41.14
Mike
I know.

00:56:45.80
Bill
I know we said that to begin with kind of off before we started recording, but, you know, usually we're pretty close, but especially when it's Mike and I, or even when we have a guest, there's usually a comfortable place around 40 to 45 minutes to, you know, to kind of cut it.

00:56:58.13
Bill
But I mean, I don't know. I think it was, having I was enjoying the fuck out of myself and I'm like, i I'm not going to interrupt this story for that. But so, um you know, and we can talk more about, I mean, just whatever the fuck we want to, to begin with.

00:57:10.89
Bill
But um two things I wrote down program launch. We want to be able to talk about that because, because Ryan says we have to, um but no, I mean, we wanted, we wanted, we wanted to anyhow, obviously we want to talk about whatever you're doing, but um so tell us ah where you're, where you're at today, as far as what are you doing?

00:57:14.68
Jim O'Connor
Yeah.

00:57:18.84
Jim O'Connor
Yeah.

00:57:20.37
Mike
Hehehe.

00:57:27.30
Bill
What are you building?

00:57:28.66
Jim O'Connor
So, so, you know, God is amazing in this program.

00:57:28.66
Bill
Tell us about it.

00:57:33.66
Jim O'Connor
I've, I've said for years to a lot of people and it turns out to be true. You know, everything is true for others. It's true for me, right? I'm not unique. Um, and, and that some of the greatest things, um, that I've seen in, in my own life and in in other people's in recovery and sobriety, it's not what they could engineer.

00:57:50.32
Jim O'Connor
It's what emerges. right? Like it's just, just following the path and stuff happens. And I've got a couple of friends who will say like, if you just keep at this, things will get better than you would have imagined they could be.

00:58:01.10
Mike
Yep.

00:58:01.90
Bill
Right.

00:58:02.49
Jim O'Connor
And in, a in 2020, at the end of 2023, I was doing clinical hours at halfway house, really great place. um guild Shout out to Guildhouse in Blue Island, Illinois, um a great halfway house. And the The board of directors that I worked with for the Second Story Foundation, it's a nonprofit that I helped found for men who are struggling with, um they're they're actually entering recovery.

00:58:31.14
Jim O'Connor
um They're working, but they came in with so little resources that it's just, you know, they needed help.

00:58:31.61
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:58:37.21
Jim O'Connor
And so we founded the Second Story Foundation um and we bought a house in foreclosure

00:58:37.76
Mike
Yeah.

00:58:43.10
Jim O'Connor
in LSEP, Illinois, um with money from an um angel donor. And we remodeled the house and we put four guys in it. And instead of putting like, you know, 12 guys in, you know, four bedrooms, we just put four, and right?

00:58:53.72
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:58:56.38
Mike
Uh-huh.

00:58:57.53
Jim O'Connor
And we're a nonprofit. We're not trying to make any money off this. um And we want to give guys the dignity and the the chance to rebuild their lives and get a rental history. And that went really well. We did another in 2024.

00:59:09.18
Jim O'Connor
And I was asked if I could start a men's recovery program, you longer term one for scratch. And I said, get me a horse farm and I'll think about it. And I did not think that would happen.

00:59:18.94
Mike
ah Right?

00:59:19.77
Mike
Yeah. Yeah.

00:59:20.57
Jim O'Connor
I really, i was like, yeah, let's get just find me a horse farm.

00:59:20.63
Mike
Yeah. Right.

00:59:20.99
Bill
I'm

00:59:22.04
Mike
yeah

00:59:23.25
Jim O'Connor
And sure. And, and people came by and they showed me three that were for sale in the, about an hour from us.

00:59:24.41
Mike
yeah yeah

00:59:25.15
Bill
sorry.

00:59:30.12
Jim O'Connor
And, and I'm Creed, Illinois. And I went to these farms and the run, I, we found this one it's run down. It's a harness racing training facility. It's got a five, eight mile racetrack on it.

00:59:42.11
Jim O'Connor
We're like, what do we know about racing? Like nothing.

00:59:44.70
Mike
right

00:59:45.11
Jim O'Connor
We're we're good with horses. We know, you know, we know about hard work. And it turns out um the place was being run by you know some people that weren't really running well. And I said, well, we won't do worse than they will.

00:59:58.81
Mike
Right?

00:59:59.32
Jim O'Connor
um so

01:00:00.22
Mike
if

01:00:01.88
Jim O'Connor
And sometimes that's it, right? you don't have to you don't have You don't have to be faster than the bear.

01:00:03.54
Mike
Yeah, that's hell yeah.

01:00:03.80
Bill
Right.

01:00:06.88
Jim O'Connor
You just have to be faster than the other guy.

01:00:08.80
Mike
You're out?

01:00:09.14
Bill
right

01:00:09.18
Jim O'Connor
um and And so we put a good a good plan together and we got, again, a lot of help, um you know, some some really amazing organizations and people and we bought a 68 acre horse farm.

01:00:21.41
Mike
Nice.

01:00:21.59
Jim O'Connor
um We've got 70 horses boarded there right now. And when I was asked like, well, why a horse farm? A lot of people thought, oh, equine therapy. And I'm like, that's ancillary, it's part of it.

01:00:33.25
Jim O'Connor
It's ah it's neat.

01:00:33.21
Mike
Sure.

01:00:34.37
Jim O'Connor
I said, but but what we have is we have a site

01:00:34.65
Mike
Sure.

01:00:38.39
Jim O'Connor
where we can build 15 bed lodge um as a recovery home and community center. And we have a work site that will never run out of work, right?

01:00:48.74
Mike
Right.

01:00:49.24
Bill
right

01:00:50.38
Jim O'Connor
Like this farm will be as there will be work to do there to, oh my God, and 70 of them.

01:00:51.48
Mike
Yeah. Horses keep shitting. Yeah.

01:00:56.58
Jim O'Connor
It's crazy. It is crazy. Right. And, and, and it's, and so there's always work.

01:01:00.31
Mike
Yeah.

01:01:02.39
Jim O'Connor
There's always upkeep.

01:01:03.61
Mike
Yeah.

01:01:03.70
Jim O'Connor
um There's a ton of land, um you know, we'll be farming and every, and doing a lot of different things. um But our, our intention for there is the second story ranch recovery home and jobs program.

01:01:15.74
Jim O'Connor
And so the model is, is that if you're, severe substance use disorder. And, and, you know, I was talking about this with a ah friend today, like alcoholism, addiction, touch everybody.

01:01:27.43
Jim O'Connor
There's no walk of life that isn't affected, you know, in Republican, Democrat, black, white, gay, straight, it's every right.

01:01:29.28
Mike
Right.

01:01:34.52
Mike
Yeah.

01:01:36.70
Jim O'Connor
It's everywhere.

01:01:36.95
Mike
Yeah.

01:01:37.09
Bill
Right.

01:01:37.96
Mike
Right.

01:01:38.46
Jim O'Connor
One thing though, that I think that where there's a line is rich and poor,

01:01:44.18
Mike
Mm.

01:01:44.70
Jim O'Connor
and And I don't know where you guys sit, you know, in your experiences with yourselves and others. But if you have a lot of resources, and I mean money, family, jobs, if you have a home, like recovery is a little different, right?

01:01:51.70
Mike
Uh huh.

01:01:54.74
Mike
Right. Mm hmm. Yeah. Right.

01:02:00.47
Mike
Yeah.

01:02:00.86
Jim O'Connor
Like, it's still hard. There's no easy way.

01:02:03.51
Mike
Sure.

01:02:04.46
Jim O'Connor
Yeah. But if I have a job, if I go into 28-day inpatient program, because um for any reason, right, either a wife made me, the courts or whatever, um and I have resources, I can come out and reorient my life, get in the rooms, find a sponsor, and and set on a path, um get up and go to work every day.

01:02:27.70
Bill
Right.

01:02:27.69
Mike
Right.

01:02:27.80
Jim O'Connor
but But so many people, and so I was one of them, um had nothing.

01:02:32.70
Mike
Yeah. Mm-hmm.

01:02:35.06
Jim O'Connor
nothing at the end. And so, and and no one to call it, there's no options. And so for for people who we say who are Medicaid eligible uninsured, that's another way of saying like, you know, near functional poverty.

01:02:40.19
Mike
Yeah.

01:02:48.60
Jim O'Connor
um And for people who, you know, are unemployed chronically um and who really struggle, you know, they'll apply to our our recovery home program and we're going to give them um free housing counseling, case management, peer support immersion, 12 step immersion, and a job on our farm on day one.

01:03:09.53
Mike
Yeah.

01:03:11.26
Jim O'Connor
And the program is broken into two phases. um In the first phase, you work on the farm and horse care, land management, agriculture, maintenance. um And we have, you know, community building activities there.

01:03:24.80
Jim O'Connor
And it's open-ended because I don't know how long it's going to take Mike to heal. I don't know how long it's going to take Bill to bounce back.

01:03:31.99
Mike
Right. Right.

01:03:33.21
Jim O'Connor
um Now, my experience tells me it's not forever, that if you're doing what you're supposed to, do there's kind of a natural growth arc.

01:03:36.47
Mike
a

01:03:40.75
Mike
Right.

01:03:41.66
Jim O'Connor
And, you know, ah in ah in running a program with and with this model that we developed, um you know, with the help of others before us. you know I've seen that at about the six to nine month mark of having structured work, community immersion, where you're working alongside guys who are going through the same things you are, um where you're allowed to make mistakes that might get you fired on a straight job, right?

01:03:52.97
Mike
Yeah.

01:03:58.75
Mike
Mm-hmm.

01:04:01.62
Mike
Right.

01:04:02.17
Bill
right

01:04:03.35
Mike
Right.

01:04:03.64
Bill
Right.

01:04:04.15
Jim O'Connor
um And that we can redirect in real time and say, hey, was that really you know how you want to go about this? um and And kind of you know get people... Reoriented quickly.

01:04:14.77
Jim O'Connor
And you know it's a quick behavioral learning experience.

01:04:17.14
Mike
Yeah.

01:04:17.85
Jim O'Connor
um At about the six to nine month mark, people are like, yeah, I'm ready to go back to work and get at it.

01:04:23.61
Mike
Yeah.

01:04:23.72
Jim O'Connor
And we'll be like, all right, let's let's help you with that.

01:04:24.36
Mike
Yeah.

01:04:25.44
Jim O'Connor
And so guys will go get straight jobs and they'll still live with us rent free um while they're building a ah bank to start in in a ah credit history.

01:04:25.85
Mike
Right. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

01:04:33.88
Jim O'Connor
And we're working on financial planning and kind of how do you manage the work life life stretcher stressors? um when you're not working, when nobody else cares whether or not you're sober, right?

01:04:43.26
Mike
Right, right.

01:04:43.76
Bill
Right.

01:04:43.80
Jim O'Connor
You know, you're going to go out a job in a blue collar work site. They do not give a fuck maybe.

01:04:48.73
Mike
Yeah, right.

01:04:49.50
Jim O'Connor
And it's not their fault.

01:04:49.82
Mike
Yeah.

01:04:51.34
Jim O'Connor
but i think they're they're They're not required to give a fuck that you're having a bad day.

01:04:52.77
Bill
Right.

01:04:53.11
Mike
Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

01:04:56.74
Jim O'Connor
Right.

01:04:57.05
Mike
Yeah.

01:04:57.85
Jim O'Connor
um And that takes time. And if we can and we help with that and eventually um we'll help everyone transition to a lease, you know, to their an independent lease on their own, you know, with a good paying job and and a way forward.

01:04:59.98
Mike
Mm-hmm.

01:05:08.51
Mike
Mm-hmm. Right?

01:05:11.20
Jim O'Connor
Yeah.

01:05:11.64
Mike
Yeah.

01:05:12.63
Jim O'Connor
And yeah, it's, you know, i've I've had the experience of working in in this model before.

01:05:12.70
Mike
Wow.

01:05:18.32
Jim O'Connor
And um my problem with it and is that I got to see men with that kind of time structure, work direction, and community immersion, and um really go, I mean, we're talking going from homelessness, you know, guys who are living under a bridge on the West side of Chicago um to good paying jobs and full union members, you know, in the operators, engineers union and roofers, plumbers with futures um in a matter of about 18 months.

01:05:37.38
Mike
Yeah. Right.

01:05:44.32
Mike
Sure.

01:05:45.10
Bill
Right.

01:05:48.37
Jim O'Connor
And it's not, you know, they all look back and and think, oh my God, you know, you start out saying, oh, it's work.

01:05:48.92
Mike
Yeah.

01:05:55.01
Jim O'Connor
It's You know, it's so hard. And every, every guy that's been through the program has said that was the shortest time I ever had.

01:06:02.52
Mike
Yeah.

01:06:02.87
Jim O'Connor
um i can't believe it's over.

01:06:05.30
Mike
Yeah.

01:06:05.43
Jim O'Connor
um and and the amount of change is so dramatic that it, for me, I just didn't want, you know, it doing it a different way seems silly.

01:06:08.80
Mike
Mm-hmm.

01:06:13.34
Mike
Right, right.

01:06:13.85
Jim O'Connor
um So we could offer it. And so we're on a capital campaign. We've, we've got a huge project and um you know, thankfully In Illinois, we have the opioid settlement um funds that are coming in from um pharmacies and ah drug makers, drug companies who have settled after the Sackler family and Purdue Pharma lost their lawsuit.

01:06:27.60
Mike
Hmm.

01:06:33.01
Mike
Right.

01:06:35.58
Mike
Drug companies, right?

01:06:36.78
Bill
Right.

01:06:39.29
Mike
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

01:06:42.84
Jim O'Connor
And Illinois um has actually approved money for capital construction.

01:06:49.57
Mike
Nice.

01:06:49.66
Jim O'Connor
um And we're really looking to prioritize recovery homes. So we're in a pretty good spot there.

01:06:53.46
Mike
Oh, cool.

01:06:55.29
Jim O'Connor
What we were ah were announcing today, i was told to announce it, um this this spring, we've got ah we've got a great community in Will County, Illinois, and in Juliet in particular, and

01:06:59.99
Mike
Right? Da-da-da-da.

01:07:10.22
Mike
Hmm.

01:07:11.31
Jim O'Connor
We're connected with the Recovery Community Center of Joliet and and a who are in a number of recovery homes in Joliet proper. and And we figured that there's conservatively 500 people cycling through Joliet area recovery homes by themselves.

01:07:28.02
Jim O'Connor
Now, Joliet's a mid-size, mid to small-sized city and in in Chicago or outside Chicago.

01:07:30.88
Mike
Yeah.

01:07:33.80
Mike
I've been there. Right.

01:07:34.79
Jim O'Connor
Right. Right. um And that's, i mean, that's 500 people a year that are coming out of 28 day inpatient programs and going into recovery homes.

01:07:41.94
Mike
Right.

01:07:42.86
Jim O'Connor
And anyone who's listening, like if you're not aware, you don't go to a recovery home if you have another choice, right?

01:07:43.03
Mike
yeah

01:07:49.14
Bill
Oh yeah, yeah, right.

01:07:50.22
Jim O'Connor
Like it's, they're they're they're a godsend.

01:07:50.20
Mike
right

01:07:52.98
Jim O'Connor
They're they're so needed.

01:07:53.82
Mike
Sure.

01:07:54.67
Jim O'Connor
They're so needed.

01:07:54.90
Mike
Yeah.

01:07:56.09
Jim O'Connor
um But it's, you know, you don't go in there on a winning streak.

01:08:00.08
Mike
Yeah.

01:08:00.22
Jim O'Connor
and And so one of the hardest things um when you've got people who have felonies, don't have GEDs or high school diplomas. um Guys are coming out, you know going into rehab with no bank account, no cell phone service.

01:08:14.94
Mike
Right. Yeah.

01:08:16.63
Jim O'Connor
And you thank God you got somewhere to go on day 29 and you're going to a recovery home.

01:08:20.41
Mike
yeah

01:08:21.43
Jim O'Connor
But now it's $175 in rents due the first week. I don't have a bank account.

01:08:25.08
Mike
Yeah. Right.

01:08:26.15
Jim O'Connor
I don't have a phone. I don't have money for transportation. um I might have a court case. And the and the and the tab is running.

01:08:35.06
Mike
yeah

01:08:35.26
Jim O'Connor
and And even if you get a job with a temp agency, let's say on you know day one or two, you might not get a paycheck for two weeks.

01:08:35.35
Bill
Right.

01:08:40.50
Mike
is right

01:08:43.12
Bill
Right.

01:08:43.61
Jim O'Connor
So we developed, we call it the First Furrow Fund, and we're partnering with the Recovery Community Center, Juliet, um who to take people who are transitioning into into recovery homes and give them um cash paid day labor, you know, three days a week so they can go get, you know, IDs back, establish resumes, um but connect them with peer support services for resumes um and ah some case management services.

01:09:04.89
Mike
Yeah. Right.

01:09:12.57
Jim O'Connor
And they'll, we'll transport them out to our farm where they can work with horses, um you know, whether it's horse care and cleaning stalls, um you know, giving a horse a bath, which is a ball,

01:09:25.01
Jim O'Connor
uming fixing fences, um landscaping, being outside, but with working with people who are compassionate to the situation they're in um and being able to put, you know, two, $300 cash in in their pockets in the first week.

01:09:27.03
Mike
Right.

01:09:34.60
Mike
Yeah.

01:09:34.81
Bill
Right.

01:09:41.46
Jim O'Connor
um So they're not at such a huge deficit when they do get work.

01:09:45.25
Mike
Yeah.

01:09:45.49
Bill
Right.

01:09:45.50
Jim O'Connor
um And at the same time, connecting them to a larger recovery community. And so we're, you know we're looking to, um, put start that program March 15th. And you know we're putting the message out anywhere. We're looking for a thousand people to give $100.

01:10:03.00
Jim O'Connor
And $100 is a full day's pay for somebody coming out of a 28-day inpatient program. And you know i i was in there and God knows you feel like a fucking loser going into rehab, right?

01:10:14.42
Mike
Yeah.

01:10:18.26
Mike
Yeah, right. Right.

01:10:19.74
Bill
yeah right

01:10:20.66
Jim O'Connor
But a different way to look at it is to flip it on its head from the outside, especially now you know when you get some time. And one thing I can say is that anyone who goes in to a 28-day inpatient program, either willingly or unwillingly, has made a small investment in their future, right?

01:10:38.58
Mike
Yep.

01:10:39.56
Jim O'Connor
It's it's it's just a small deposit in in your you know for recovery capital.

01:10:42.30
Mike
Yeah.

01:10:44.86
Jim O'Connor
And so if we can help people take that moment um and bridge that to start talking and having the you know, the longer conversation about, Hey, maybe you can stick with this.

01:10:55.98
Jim O'Connor
Maybe there's a future in this. Cause I think so many people relapse early and fall out because it's so hard that they look around and they're like, this isn't fucking worth it. I can't see any, I can't see any gains.

01:11:05.66
Mike
Right. Yeah, right.

01:11:08.34
Jim O'Connor
Right.

01:11:08.57
Mike
Yeah.

01:11:08.70
Jim O'Connor
I'm just as fucked as I was before.

01:11:10.81
Mike
Yeah, right.

01:11:11.89
Jim O'Connor
Yeah.

01:11:12.09
Mike
28 days ago.

01:11:12.73
Jim O'Connor
Yeah, exactly. And the answer is yes, you are.

01:11:13.84
Mike
Right. Yeah, right.

01:11:15.99
Bill
right

01:11:16.60
Mike
Of course.

01:11:17.02
Jim O'Connor
um But we're here to help, right? There are people that, and rather than a handout um completely, we can say, come on out to the farm, work a day with us.

01:11:19.22
Mike
Yes. Yeah.

01:11:24.43
Mike
Mm-hmm.

01:11:26.80
Jim O'Connor
We've got plenty of work for you to do.

01:11:26.97
Mike
Yeah. Yeah.

01:11:28.76
Jim O'Connor
You'll leave with, you'll leave with a hundred dollars. um You can work, you know, up to three days a week, you know, for the first two weeks. um And then we're going to help you get a full-time job. You'll be transitioning to there.

01:11:38.85
Mike
Yeah.

01:11:39.36
Jim O'Connor
If you're, if you're willing to work, you know, out on our farm for six days in the first two weeks after rehab, you are going to get a job, I promise.

01:11:47.06
Mike
Yeah, right.

01:11:48.00
Bill
Right.

01:11:48.44
Jim O'Connor
Right. And so it's, it's about taking that moment and saying, Hey, congratulations. You're out of rehab boots on. Let's go.

01:11:55.26
Mike
Yeah. Yeah.

01:11:55.99
Bill
So real real quick and let's stop. I just want to stop on one thing real quick. So the, the, the thousand people, $100 have, have you guys put together any sort of promotional, like something that we could post on Instagram or anything like that?

01:12:09.72
Jim O'Connor
So,

01:12:09.85
Bill
Do you know if Ryan has that or anything?

01:12:11.06
Jim O'Connor
Yeah, Ryan has that. So ryan has ah Ryan has commandeered the website, bootsonletsgo.com.

01:12:22.46
Bill
Okay.

01:12:22.46
Mike
Cool.

01:12:23.35
Jim O'Connor
That was his idea. we have Our website is secondstoryfoundation.org.

01:12:25.34
Mike
Yeah.

01:12:28.18
Jim O'Connor
But if you go to bootsonletsgo.com, um It'll take you right to our website um where you can donate through PayPal. um And, you know, we're we're starting a campaign to to get those thousand people, um thousand people, $100. And in any amount is great.

01:12:47.80
Jim O'Connor
But I shared with Ryan, I remember, you know, it's so funny when you're, I remember giving $100 out early in recovery. um i You know, you you're like, I have it, not really. But I remember that guy that when I really didn't have it.

01:13:01.60
Mike
Right.

01:13:02.10
Bill
Right.

01:13:02.55
Jim O'Connor
And and it meant you know it meant a lot to me to be able to give. um you know And some of the things that we try to do with the Second Story Foundation are things that I've been seeing people do in the room's um recovery rooms for a long time informally.

01:13:17.83
Mike
Sure. Right.

01:13:19.32
Jim O'Connor
you know Some things we do, you know if a guy needs a car, um you know we might say, hey, well you know we can organize a little fundraiser because we're a nonprofit and and loan you $2,000 or $3,000.

01:13:19.70
Mike
who

01:13:22.55
Mike
Right.

01:13:31.92
Jim O'Connor
You can pay it back at $100 a month um you know when you can't get credit for a car loan.

01:13:35.36
Mike
Mm-hmm. Right.

01:13:38.33
Jim O'Connor
And so these are things that you've seen people do for many years.

01:13:38.39
Mike
Right, right. Sure.

01:13:41.37
Jim O'Connor
But when you have a 5.1c3 in a nonprofit and you say, hey, we can get organized about this and we can really help more people.

01:13:47.60
Mike
Mm-hmm.

01:13:47.83
Jim O'Connor
Um, but our, our workforce development program for people coming out of, out of recovery homes is going to be really transformative.

01:13:48.17
Bill
Right.

01:13:54.13
Jim O'Connor
We actually started it in the fall. Um, I have, I had a guy that was working for me and that I was working with in recovery. He was staying in a recovery home and he said, Jimmy, I got a guy, ah who needs help.

01:14:05.52
Jim O'Connor
You know, he he needs to work and, and we had, we had plenty of work to do. He wanted help.

01:14:09.60
Mike
Sure.

01:14:09.84
Jim O'Connor
He wanted someone to help him.

01:14:10.36
Mike
h Right.

01:14:12.22
Jim O'Connor
And I said, i don't know, man. I'm like, all right, I think I can give him a hundred bucks if he wants to come out for it.

01:14:16.82
Mike
this is

01:14:17.24
Jim O'Connor
And he did, and he and he did a great job and he wanted to come back another day.

01:14:18.48
Mike
Yeah.

01:14:21.46
Jim O'Connor
um And then there was another guy and another guy and another guy.

01:14:24.26
Mike
Uh-huh. Right.

01:14:24.78
Jim O'Connor
And I said, oh my God. um And when I talked to the recovery home operators, they said, Jimmy, we could we could send you workers forever.

01:14:33.94
Mike
see

01:14:34.30
Jim O'Connor
um And so we haven't heard of any other program like it.

01:14:38.36
Mike
right

01:14:38.42
Jim O'Connor
And um for those people like you guys who have been through it and and really came in with nothing, um I can't overstate you know how much it means to get that kind of help, um that kind of trust and be put back to work, especially right away.

01:14:50.14
Mike
Oh, absolutely.

01:14:51.06
Bill
All right, Mia.

01:14:53.11
Mike
Yeah.

01:14:54.01
Jim O'Connor
And and so, I mean, imagine imagine being given a job You didn't have to do a job application. You didn't have to go through an interview. It doesn't matter if you have a felony. We don't care if you have a GED.

01:15:02.17
Mike
Right.

01:15:03.49
Jim O'Connor
Are you willing to come out to the farm and are you willing to put in a day's work?

01:15:06.04
Mike
Yeah.

01:15:06.97
Bill
Right.

01:15:07.16
Mike
Right.

01:15:07.32
Jim O'Connor
Um,

01:15:07.36
Mike
I mean, it it was ah very similar. The place we went through the Keating Center. I mean, yeah, you know, Marty, when we, we, we halfway, we go three quarter and there was like this period ah looking for work, looking for women ah LTF.

01:15:22.07
Bill
Right.

01:15:23.23
Mike
Right. You know, it was the joke, but yeah, I mean, Marty would, you know, people would go to the director, Marty and and say, Hey, you know, I've got, a day's work for of your guys and he'd send us out, you know?

01:15:34.95
Mike
Yeah. I mean, it was again, very informal and and all it but that, but that's, that happened in the place we went through, you know, I did it several times, you know, Marty,

01:15:44.30
Jim O'Connor
it's happening all over. Right. And so,

01:15:45.59
Mike
Yeah, right. You know, he would just, you know, this guy needs help moving stuff or this guy needs help painting a room today. Go out there and help him do it. Yeah, like you said, you know, you get a hundred bucks, whatever the fuck.

01:15:56.51
Mike
And yeah, it was the transition thing. Absolutely. But you're doing it formally, which is fantastic.

01:15:59.02
Bill
Yep. Right.

01:16:02.39
Jim O'Connor
well, that's it is, is instead of waiting for some guy and having it out ad hoc, we can say we're here, you know, we're here for you.

01:16:05.69
Mike
yeah Right. Yeah.

01:16:09.87
Jim O'Connor
Let's go. And, and um you know,

01:16:10.65
Mike
Yeah.

01:16:13.59
Jim O'Connor
I think one of the one of the great things about recovery for the for the people that I've i've known that see it worked really well for, all of us, I mean, you know again, it's that rich-poor divide.

01:16:26.60
Mike
Mm-hmm.

01:16:26.84
Jim O'Connor
I got sober at 41, and you look around here, and I'm like, I'm going to be working until forever.

01:16:28.54
Mike
Right.

01:16:32.82
Mike
Yeah. Mm-hmm.

01:16:34.07
Jim O'Connor
Right. I don't, I, this is going to like, and once you get your head around the fact that recovery itself, sobriety, you know, getting past those first year, two year, maybe three year mark, it gets easier.

01:16:35.00
Mike
Right.

01:16:44.92
Jim O'Connor
Right. But it's work and it's always going to be work.

01:16:45.60
Mike
Mm-hmm.

01:16:47.06
Jim O'Connor
And rather than resisting it, when you throw your arms around and you work and you embrace work, like, okay, ready to go, things just shift.

01:16:47.54
Mike
Right.

01:16:54.58
Mike
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

01:16:56.60
Jim O'Connor
And, and so, you know, one of the things that I've seen over the years is a person's A person's willingness and acceptance of of work both is directly correlated to their long-term recovery success.

01:17:12.98
Mike
see

01:17:14.36
Jim O'Connor
You just don't see too many people who are lazy or resistant to doing hard things that really make it very long.

01:17:21.97
Mike
right exactly yeah but then you you're not resistant and you do those hard things and uh i i think i read somewhere about practicing these principles in all our affairs right and that's just it right you work hard under recovery and that bleeds into working hard at whatever the fuck else you're doing yes absolutely and and you

01:17:32.06
Bill
eighty

01:17:33.37
Jim O'Connor
Yeah.

01:17:42.62
Mike
You get the rewards in your recovery and you get your rewards in the real world.

01:17:46.70
Jim O'Connor
In life. Yeah.

01:17:47.42
Mike
Yes.

01:17:48.73
Jim O'Connor
Yeah. So we, you know, we think that there's, um there's a great opportunity for us, but it's going to be a fun, a fun journey for a lot of people.

01:17:56.31
Mike
Absolutely.

01:17:57.49
Bill
And then what I'll do is I'll look, because I just looked it up, the bootsonletsgo.com went right to your Second Story Foundation website.

01:18:05.08
Jim O'Connor
Correct.

01:18:05.30
Bill
And there's a thing that's right up in the upper right-hand corner that says support. So I think that looks like I clicked on that. looks like where people can donate.

01:18:13.50
Jim O'Connor
Correct.

01:18:13.98
Bill
But what I'm going to do, will put that website link in the description. It's a click through link on for just so anyone knows, depending on where you're listening, if you're listening on Spotify, it's always a click through link, but everyone knows how to use fucking Google.

01:18:28.10
Bill
So go on Google go to, go to boots on boots on let's go.com upper right-hand corner says support, go in there and donate some money.

01:18:28.62
Mike
Right. ya

01:18:35.34
Bill
But Also, if you can, Jimmy, if you can pass along to Ryan, if he has any sort of, because what I don't want to do, I could develop something. I could make something up with a little thing that we can post, but I don't want to jump all over any artwork or anything like that.

01:18:48.96
Bill
He, that he has, if he has something that he can give us, then we'll post it. We'll post the living shit out of it on Instagram. It goes on Facebook. And we've got, we've got kind of a weird following between the podcast and Instagram, different audiences, Um, but all sober people for the most part, you know, so, and then, you know, that we have people that, you know, people that we know that we can ask to share it so we can get it around.

01:19:04.71
Mike
Yeah.

01:19:10.04
Mike
hey

01:19:11.22
Bill
Um, you know, we got plenty of people, but, um, how, however it can help, we're more willing to do it, but I would rather use whatever I'm sure from probably from Ryan's standpoint, a uniform front on some of these things.

01:19:22.01
Bill
If he's got anything that he can email to me, we'll put it together and we'll post it up on Instagram. Okay. Okay.

01:19:27.72
Jim O'Connor
That's spectacular. That's spectacular.

01:19:29.82
Mike
yeah

01:19:30.10
Jim O'Connor
um i'm i'm I'm grateful for you guys. You guys are awesome to talk to.

01:19:33.66
Bill
Well, you know what? It's a it's a great it's a great thing that you're that you're doing because two things.

01:19:37.53
Mike
Yeah, absolutely.

01:19:39.04
Bill
First of all, when you know obviously knowing what – because I checked out your website and a lot of stuff, obviously, before before we talked to you. So i I understood the ranch theme and all these different things and whatever.

01:19:48.85
Mike
hmm.

01:19:49.40
Bill
So you're talking about your whole farm days, and I'm like, well, I see where this shit's coming from now. you know So I kind of saw the lead into it that that cracked me up. You can't find me a horse farm, but I'll do it. And and they did.

01:20:00.60
Bill
um you know be careful what you wish for, right? You know, but the so the the concept is is really cool. And then on top of that, being a nonprofit and getting the funding and getting all these opportunities.

01:20:07.08
Mike
Mm

01:20:11.57
Bill
What a wonderful thing. I mean, we were involved, like Mike just said. I mean, we were involved in a wonderful organization and they still are.

01:20:18.69
Mike
hmm.

01:20:19.37
Bill
um

01:20:19.51
Mike
Right.

01:20:20.12
Bill
You guys are doing the same thing, just in a different in a different level and with a different coat of paint. You know, it's not really, you know, good, bad or indifferent or any different in that way. it's the same concept of, you know, we were taught how to live.

01:20:34.42
Bill
I got sober at 41. Mike was 43. You know, we were adults on paper, but didn't know how to live, you know?

01:20:37.07
Mike
Yep.

01:20:39.42
Mike
Right.

01:20:40.54
Bill
um I mean, our, you know, everything, everything on paper said we were adults, but yeah, we weren't really, you know, so, you know, we've had that opportunity that we had, like you, like you said, Jimmy, is the having people around you that, you know, just good people doing good things and showing you working with people, having people there that basically, and the you know, the buzzword these days that gave you grace long enough for you to get to the point to get get your shit together, get your feet back under you. It's wonderful.

01:21:06.51
Jim O'Connor
It's, you know, that there was, there are moments, one of the things we talk about in the in the men's long-term recovery program, and the farm-based program is um it's a deal, right?

01:21:18.70
Bill
Right.

01:21:18.97
Jim O'Connor
and And the deal is we will give you every resource you need to succeed. The deal is we need your effort, your time, and your attention.

01:21:31.13
Mike
Yep.

01:21:31.42
Bill
right

01:21:31.99
Jim O'Connor
And the deal never changes. As long as you're giving that, your effort, your time and attention, um we will be there for lifelong belonging.

01:21:34.35
Mike
Yeah.

01:21:41.97
Mike
Right.

01:21:42.17
Jim O'Connor
but But here's the thing, the deal never changes. You never get to give up.

01:21:44.95
Mike
Yep. Mm-hmm.

01:21:46.80
Jim O'Connor
it's We're never going to tell you um it's yeah super, it's like going to get easier. but But when you hold up your end of the deal, it's so rewarding.

01:21:56.45
Bill
Right.

01:21:56.70
Jim O'Connor
um And I had a moment many years ago, it seems like many years ago, where I was in court with a guy who was staring down the barrel six years in prison for his fifth DUI.

01:22:08.50
Jim O'Connor
But he had been through this program I was directing. And he was awesome. He was doing absolutely everything he was supposed to. He was over a year sober.

01:22:15.53
Mike
Mm-hmm.

01:22:16.22
Jim O'Connor
He had a great job with an HVAC company that he was good at. um he was He had a kid that he was becoming a good father to, and just ah an infant, and and just doing everything right.

01:22:26.26
Mike
a

01:22:29.30
Jim O'Connor
And I had written written a letter for him for the judge, and I went to court, and it was dicey.

01:22:29.83
Mike
Right.

01:22:34.42
Jim O'Connor
And at the last minute, the judge said and looked at me, said, well, he's yours now.

01:22:39.19
Mike
Right.

01:22:39.93
Jim O'Connor
And, and, the and she let him off and said, us he was staring at six years.

01:22:40.15
Mike
Yeah.

01:22:40.25
Bill
yeah

01:22:44.63
Mike
Right.

01:22:44.84
Jim O'Connor
And, and she let him on probation, um you know, said he had to kind of keep doing what he was doing with us.

01:22:51.69
Mike
Yeah. Right.

01:22:52.63
Jim O'Connor
um But he dodged jail and, and I was driving home in the country that day. And I was just, I just started crying. And I had this moment where my higher power said to me, I will continue to make amazing things happen.

01:23:09.24
Jim O'Connor
your end of the deal is you can never stop helping.

01:23:12.06
Mike
Right.

01:23:13.40
Jim O'Connor
And I said out loud in the car, I'll take that deal.

01:23:16.62
Mike
Yeah.

01:23:17.40
Jim O'Connor
um and And my experience has been that, you know,

01:23:17.43
Bill
Right.

01:23:22.65
Jim O'Connor
he has never stopped made making amazing things happen. And and and from oh buying the, fart the deal doesn't change man.

01:23:25.97
Mike
Yeah. The deal doesn't change. Right. Yeah.

01:23:29.51
Jim O'Connor
Right.

01:23:29.59
Bill
Right.

01:23:29.95
Jim O'Connor
And so now I'm terrified of stopping.

01:23:30.27
Mike
Yeah. Yeah.

01:23:32.31
Jim O'Connor
Like I'm, I'm fear-based, right?

01:23:32.41
Mike
right yeah

01:23:33.05
Bill
Right. Oh, yeah.

01:23:34.91
Jim O'Connor
Like, so I'm still like, what, what happens if I don't do everything I can?

01:23:35.19
Mike
yeah

01:23:35.80
Bill
Oh, yeah, we are too. Yep.

01:23:38.68
Mike
Yeah. Oh, we talk about that all the time.

01:23:39.58
Jim O'Connor
i don't,

01:23:41.13
Mike
Yeah, absolutely.

01:23:41.67
Bill
Right.

01:23:42.81
Mike
Yeah.

01:23:43.06
Jim O'Connor
I am, I am still fear-based, but the, the,

01:23:44.76
Mike
Sure. Yeah, yeah. Well, but it's healthy fear. It's a good fear. It's we, we, yeah.

01:23:48.50
Jim O'Connor
Well, right. And, and it's what it's, I'm, I, what happens if I stopped doing everything I can? I don't want to find out.

01:23:53.69
Mike
iszi Right.

01:23:55.00
Bill
Right.

01:23:55.84
Mike
Yeah.

01:23:56.24
Jim O'Connor
I'm good.

01:23:56.54
Bill
ah you Well, you probably yeah you probably don't want to be that person either.

01:23:56.80
Jim O'Connor
I'll just keep doing it.

01:23:59.30
Bill
You know you want to find out what's going to happen.

01:23:59.54
Jim O'Connor
No.

01:24:00.98
Bill
you want to be that person. And, you know, I like what you said, too, with that deal part. You know, we will do this. All we ask of of you is this. And Marty said the same thing, too, because here's the thing. like Very, very early and we make a joke out of it now.

01:24:12.79
Bill
But we we got to the point, especially in early recovery, hearing about all the statistics. You know, you're you're in a meeting and I'll look around you and yeah you look at this guy and that guy, only 10, 10 out of the 50, you'll be here.

01:24:23.75
Bill
And this person's going to die.

01:24:25.11
Jim O'Connor
Oh, yeah.

01:24:26.17
Bill
And we' we're getting pissed off. And we we decided we're like, well, fuck them all.

01:24:28.10
Mike
Yo.

01:24:30.09
Bill
we're We're going to stay sober just to prove them wrong. You know, and that's, that was our, that was our credo for a while.

01:24:32.62
Mike
Yo.

01:24:35.19
Bill
Just fucking spite, you know, as part of a part of the thing that keeps us sober is just a spike is it's like, oh no, we're not going to stay sober to to help our families or be better people.

01:24:36.66
Mike
is is

01:24:44.47
Bill
We're going to show you, fuck you, we can't do this. And quick s quid side note, we get this we get this email three months into into doing this podcast.

01:24:47.70
Mike
Uh-huh.

01:24:53.06
Bill
And this was, again, almost four years ago now. And this guy is is trying to sell us some shit. you know Do this and we can get you guests. And it turns out to be this big cost-based thing. you knows they're They're bringing women with one hand and they're shoving their fist up your ass with the other one.

01:25:05.34
Jim O'Connor
Oh yeah.

01:25:06.62
Bill
you know and And I mean, this guy is telling us all this stuff.

01:25:06.65
Jim O'Connor
Yeah.

01:25:06.93
Mike
hu

01:25:09.86
Bill
And he goes, what did he say? um um Oh yeah, only 10% a podcast, um, lasts for a year. So we're like, well, fuck you.

01:25:17.54
Mike
Yeah.

01:25:18.68
Bill
I said, we'll, we'll put out garbage for a goddamn year.

01:25:20.82
Jim O'Connor
yeah right

01:25:21.08
Mike
Yeah. yeah. Uh huh.

01:25:21.52
Bill
We don't, we don't give a fuck what we're doing. We're going a year, know?

01:25:24.82
Mike
yeah oh yeah

01:25:25.97
Bill
And then about, ah about year and a half, two years in this motherfucker emails us again, you know, just doesn't know, realize that, uh, you know, we're off his mailing list. or we're still on his mailing list.

01:25:35.35
Jim O'Connor
yeah

01:25:36.62
Bill
And I said, I said, I know you, I said, you're the one that told us that we could, we couldn't succeed. I'm like, it's been almost two years. The next number of episodes, I'm like, have a great day.

01:25:43.13
Mike
ahha

01:25:45.26
Bill
and he's like, Oh really? I'd love to hear more. And I'm like, go away, man.

01:25:47.74
Mike
he

01:25:48.58
Bill
And then he, and then listen, listen to this.

01:25:48.60
Jim O'Connor
Knock it off. Yeah.

01:25:51.26
Bill
It was again, was six, eight months ago. it was last fall when, when I was in Cleveland, Mike, when we were, um, yeah, he, he fucking emailed us again.

01:25:56.18
Mike
Yeah.

01:25:58.58
Bill
I'm like, you need to fucking go away. what are you going to stop? You know?

01:26:01.59
Mike
Right.

01:26:01.82
Bill
Um,

01:26:02.00
Jim O'Connor
I've, you know, it's funny.

01:26:02.62
Mike
Because we're not.

01:26:03.67
Jim O'Connor
i hear, I hear a lot of consult from a lot of consultants like that.

01:26:03.70
Bill
Yeah, exactly.

01:26:07.04
Jim O'Connor
And in about 10 minutes, I, you figure out, okay, tell me what it is that you're doing. what You can do that. I can't.

01:26:15.38
Mike
Right.

01:26:15.71
Bill
Right.

01:26:16.44
Jim O'Connor
And it's real, there's a real short list of things when you, and and that's the other thing of recovery too.

01:26:19.31
Mike
Yep.

01:26:22.06
Jim O'Connor
And especially like our farm breaks program, you start to recognize like, if you wake up every day and all you think is I'll just do whatever it takes today.

01:26:31.54
Mike
Yeah.

01:26:31.71
Bill
Right.

01:26:31.74
Jim O'Connor
i I don't know what it is. You start to be someone who can figure out just about anything.

01:26:33.65
Mike
Mm-hmm.

01:26:36.31
Mike
Yep.

01:26:36.82
Jim O'Connor
And so the consultant guy, you're like, yeah, I get i got that.

01:26:37.25
Bill
Right.

01:26:39.46
Jim O'Connor
Like 10%. Like, do you know what I've been through?

01:26:42.58
Mike
Yeah.

01:26:42.97
Jim O'Connor
Like, did you know what I had to do to get here?

01:26:45.64
Mike
Uh-huh.

01:26:45.78
Jim O'Connor
like a podcast, you're like, that's not going to be a problem.

01:26:47.86
Mike
Right.

01:26:49.31
Jim O'Connor
Yeah.

01:26:50.58
Bill
Well, and and, you know, some of some of these people are like, we get we got all these ones too that, um you know, share this with me and we'll show you how to, you know, increase your following base. We're like, we're we're a relatively small podcast. We don't have a big following, but the people that we have, the people that listen, they're very engaged, they're loyal, and they're they're just good individuals. they're They're in tune with what we're doing. And they're they're kind of like, you know, apparently we're their people and there are people. And that's cool. Now, granted,

01:27:16.79
Bill
We would love to grow beyond that, but it's going to happen organically. It's not going to happen because somebody, you know, we we paid somebody a thousand dollars to juice the numbers and, you know, shove us into people's faces, you know, but, but then the other thing too, is he podcasts out there that people are begging for money.

01:27:31.54
Bill
Oh, we, the only way to keep this on the air is to donate and buy us a fucking coffee and this and that. We started telling people, don't give us, don't give us any money. We don't want any fucking money from anyone. You guys are Jim.

01:27:42.49
Bill
You guys are not profit. We're not including you in these types of things.

01:27:45.05
Mike
No no I was about to say No don't give us any fucking money Give Jim money Yeah Yeah

01:27:46.26
Jim O'Connor
but I appreciate that.

01:27:49.05
Bill
Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Give somebody like you give somebody like like Jim money.

01:27:52.57
Mike
yeah

01:27:52.61
Bill
But then but then we're like we we tell people we're like, you know what, if you have a podcast and you you can't afford to do it on your own. Fuck you. Shut it down because you shouldn't have a podcast. Now, the people we want money from, we want advertisers.

01:28:01.43
Jim O'Connor
Yeah.

01:28:05.25
Bill
If somebody wants to advertise with us, that's fine.

01:28:05.24
Mike
a

01:28:06.71
Jim O'Connor
And you'll get it.

01:28:07.89
Bill
Well, and it's, if we never do, we don't really care, but that's the whole point.

01:28:08.18
Jim O'Connor
You'll get it.

01:28:11.00
Jim O'Connor
You will.

01:28:11.65
Bill
But here's the other thing too, is that um like when, when we have guests come on, we've had other, we've had people say they're like, they're like, you don't mind.

01:28:12.15
Jim O'Connor
I can tell.

01:28:19.06
Bill
We could just talk about whatever. We're like, no, they talk about your fucking book. Talk about your program. Like it's just, where it's, it's so much fun to watch what you guys are doing in person, right?

01:28:29.85
Bill
It kind of feels like what we get to do. We're not, we're not like lifting people up from, you know, bare bones recovery and all that sort of thing, but we're taking people and we're talking to people ah that are recovery individuals that are sober for a number of years and are doing some really cool shit and we get to help them promote it.

01:28:45.08
Mike
Yep.

01:28:46.84
Bill
That is to us.

01:28:46.98
Mike
Yep.

01:28:47.86
Jim O'Connor
It's huge to me.

01:28:48.24
Bill
That's it's fucking awesome.

01:28:48.78
Jim O'Connor
i mean, i'm not i'm not like I'm not media savvy or so social media savvy or any of it.

01:28:49.88
Bill
It's great. Yeah.

01:28:55.70
Jim O'Connor
and But I believe what you guys believe as well, like doing the right thing, doing what you know you're supposed to for the right reasons, um the the but great things emerge.

01:29:02.84
Mike
Mm-hmm.

01:29:08.12
Jim O'Connor
It's not what you engineer.

01:29:08.30
Mike
Yeah.

01:29:08.37
Bill
Right.

01:29:09.20
Jim O'Connor
It's not the consultant, um right? And I mean, you you take help wherever you can get it

01:29:14.07
Mike
Of course.

01:29:14.36
Bill
Right.

01:29:14.71
Jim O'Connor
um

01:29:15.10
Bill
Yeah.

01:29:15.61
Jim O'Connor
But there's something about, you know, when when you're on a path that, you know, you know you're where you're supposed to be, you know you're doing the right thing, um you just don't stop, right?

01:29:26.38
Jim O'Connor
like and And so I have ah a friend of mine who's a pastor, and I get almost always when I'm talking to him, hear myself mostly talking about being impatient.

01:29:26.49
Mike
Yeah, exactly.

01:29:36.06
Jim O'Connor
for like, I want something or something's not, you know, and it's usually, yeah you're worried about uncertainty.

01:29:36.63
Bill
but

01:29:41.70
Jim O'Connor
You want, I want to know what's going to happen, where everything's going to come from, you know, and, and that's not how it works. And he, one time he said, God, Jimmy, God's never early and he's never late.

01:29:52.06
Mike
Right.

01:29:52.50
Jim O'Connor
And the more I've thought about that, that has been true historically, you know, as a higher power, right?

01:29:56.66
Mike
this

01:29:58.64
Jim O'Connor
Like everything comes probably not exactly when I wanted it.

01:29:58.84
Mike
Sure.

01:30:02.68
Jim O'Connor
He's going to make me sweat it.

01:30:04.70
Mike
Yep.

01:30:05.08
Jim O'Connor
um but he shows up on time.

01:30:05.31
Bill
Right. Yeah.

01:30:07.26
Mike
Yeah.

01:30:08.12
Jim O'Connor
And in and recover I think recovery works that way. um

01:30:11.27
Mike
Mm-hmm.

01:30:12.76
Jim O'Connor
One thing...

01:30:12.76
Bill
Yeah, it's ah it it is so it's terrible. I'm i'm so i'm impatient, too. And Mike said that some years ago. as i had I was estranged from my daughter for years and years, you know like 12 years by the time we finally got back together.

01:30:24.52
Bill
And was two and a half or two years plus, I think, when of sober years when we got together.

01:30:28.07
Mike
Mm-hmm.

01:30:31.06
Bill
And you know we were at the Keating Center, and Mike used to do group all the time. And at this point, well, we were probably a handful of years sober, I would think.

01:30:37.56
Mike
Mm-hmm.

01:30:38.07
Bill
And, you know, Mike, he's like, he goes, tell the story.

01:30:38.30
Mike
Right?

01:30:40.99
Bill
He wanted me to tell the story because he's told it before. And he's like, it he says to me in front of these, all these fucking new guys, you know, he's like, he goes, oh, you know, Bill, how long did it take? I'm like, too fucking long.

01:30:51.27
Bill
He's like, no, it took exactly how long it's supposed to take.

01:30:53.18
Jim O'Connor
Yeah.

01:30:53.54
Bill
And I'm like, God damn it.

01:30:53.76
Mike
Mm-hmm.

01:30:54.67
Bill
No, it's fine. Fucking, fucking fine.

01:30:56.18
Mike
he

01:30:56.38
Jim O'Connor
Yeah. Right. We were at our program at the programs I've run, like I get my guys to start understanding and we have an alumni program. I bet the Keating center does too.

01:31:07.23
Mike
Sure.

01:31:07.29
Bill
yeah.

01:31:07.95
Mike
Yeah.

01:31:07.99
Jim O'Connor
Right. And when you have alumni come in, one of the best things about alumni is they're able to tell the guys that are new to the program.

01:31:10.21
Mike
Yep.

01:31:15.51
Jim O'Connor
And that you know, it's true is, is like, Hey,

01:31:15.99
Mike
Mm-hmm.

01:31:18.58
Jim O'Connor
We don't even consider you like on your way until year two or three, like don't like you're still new at a year.

01:31:24.21
Mike
Yeah.

01:31:26.52
Bill
Right.

01:31:26.55
Mike
Oh, yeah.

01:31:27.03
Jim O'Connor
Right. And so there's a lot of programs that are telling people like, you know, that are three, you know, 90 days sober, they've made it

01:31:33.31
Mike
Mm-hmm. Yeah, right.

01:31:34.65
Jim O'Connor
Like, hooray. And im like I'm like, it's great.

01:31:35.51
Mike
You're cured.

01:31:37.41
Jim O'Connor
You can't get two years without 90 days. It's 100% impossible.

01:31:39.54
Mike
Right.

01:31:40.61
Jim O'Connor
But like, let's slow it down and let's start raising the bar of the expectations. It takes time. ah My line is, every you know you want tent you want you want you know six months sober in three months.

01:31:46.44
Mike
Yeah.

01:31:52.07
Mike
Yeah.

01:31:52.27
Bill
Right.

01:31:52.41
Jim O'Connor
um And the truth is that my line for years has been, time is the work.

01:31:52.60
Mike
is

01:31:57.75
Mike
yeah

01:31:58.81
Bill
Right. Yeah.

01:31:59.74
Jim O'Connor
that's it's It's time.

01:31:59.80
Bill
And, you know, in suter and sooner or later you look back and, you know, you're, you're three years sober and then you're almost 10 years sober and then you're, you know, coming up on 16 and we know people, we we knew a guy that knew sister Ignatia, you know, the name sister Ignatia from, yeah, there was, there was a guy named Ray in Cleveland, Ray Brown.

01:32:11.26
Jim O'Connor
Yeah.

01:32:12.22
Mike
Yeah. Yeah.

01:32:15.14
Bill
And he died with, what did we figure Mike's 55 years sober?

01:32:15.42
Mike
Mm-hmm. Yeah. 55, 56, something like that. Years. Yeah.

01:32:21.27
Bill
Yeah.

01:32:21.34
Jim O'Connor
It's just, that's, the I mean, that's the kick.

01:32:22.60
Bill
He, right.

01:32:23.79
Jim O'Connor
That's how you win, right? die Like somebody said, what's ah in the addictions field, it gets really hard.

01:32:24.98
Mike
Yeah.

01:32:29.30
Jim O'Connor
um I'll tell you something. I don't know if guys, if you look at like, Hey Mark, or I'm sorry. Uh, if you look at like the Betty Ford, Hazelden, all kinds of different success rates, right?

01:32:38.47
Mike
Mm-hmm.

01:32:38.54
Bill
Right.

01:32:40.86
Jim O'Connor
Like if you look and dig really deep, they consider success is like somebody who finishes a 28 day inpatient program sober 30 days later as self-reporting.

01:32:41.37
Mike
Right.

01:32:53.02
Jim O'Connor
And they're like, that's, we have a 99% success rate. I'm like, and and I'm like, we don't judge that. Like we're yeah we're talking and you know our program talks in years.

01:32:59.38
Mike
No.

01:33:02.26
Mike
Yeah, yeah.

01:33:03.13
Jim O'Connor
But the truth is, I said, how do you judge it? I go, did you die sober?

01:33:07.06
Mike
Yeah, exactly.

01:33:07.51
Bill
Right.

01:33:08.12
Mike
Right.

01:33:08.38
Jim O'Connor
Then then you you won.

01:33:08.41
Bill
Yeah.

01:33:08.73
Mike
Oh, yes. Yeah.

01:33:10.34
Jim O'Connor
You you won.

01:33:10.52
Mike
i Yeah. How do you graduate the program? You die sober.

01:33:14.52
Jim O'Connor
Die sober.

01:33:15.22
Bill
Right.

01:33:15.24
Jim O'Connor
give Give that a shot.

01:33:15.38
Mike
Yeah.

01:33:15.73
Bill
Yeah.

01:33:16.35
Mike
It's the only way.

01:33:16.54
Jim O'Connor
like And that isn't that the ultimate fuck you, by the way, or to the guy that's to the guy that said everybody else will make it?

01:33:19.29
Mike
Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

01:33:22.46
Jim O'Connor
Like, die sober?

01:33:23.19
Mike
Uh-huh.

01:33:23.26
Jim O'Connor
That is the ultimate F you.

01:33:23.90
Mike
Yep. Absolutely. It's my plan.

01:33:26.23
Bill
Well, in Marty, Marty used to say the, the guy who was ah actually still does run the Keating center again with all these statistics, you know, success rates and that sort of thing, you know, it's all bullshit.

01:33:36.68
Bill
He used to tell us, he goes, we have a 100% success rate. If you do what we do. And say what we say and follow the program as it is.

01:33:42.71
Mike
Yep.

01:33:43.74
Jim O'Connor
Yeah. Yep.

01:33:44.24
Bill
He goes, you you will you will stay sober. And they you know they they used to always tell us, they they never they never told us, we never heard, um you're not going to be able to drink anymore. They used to tell us, we're going to show you why you won't need to or why you won't have to or why you won't want to drink anymore.

01:33:59.77
Bill
Which is, that's it's a minor distinction, but saying that you can't drink anymore for the rest of your life versus we're going to show you why you won't have to, why you won't need to drink.

01:34:09.99
Jim O'Connor
Well, we're, we're all nutcases.

01:34:10.15
Bill
We're going show you that.

01:34:10.20
Mike
Yep.

01:34:12.04
Jim O'Connor
Right. So like, if you tell me, if you tell me I can't drink, I'm going to argue semantics.

01:34:12.66
Mike
and

01:34:12.86
Bill
but

01:34:16.70
Mike
Oh, yes.

01:34:16.98
Jim O'Connor
Right. I'm like, of course I can.

01:34:17.88
Mike
is see

01:34:18.90
Jim O'Connor
Right.

01:34:18.94
Bill
Right.

01:34:18.94
Mike
Of course.

01:34:19.66
Jim O'Connor
And now watch me like, so, um, and of yeah, of course you can go drink.

01:34:19.77
Mike
Yeah. Yeah, right.

01:34:24.21
Jim O'Connor
Like I had a guy, I swear to God, I had a guy tell me the other day, i was trying to get him, um, to go back into rehab

01:34:24.71
Mike
Yeah.

01:34:30.77
Mike
Uh huh.

01:34:31.00
Jim O'Connor
And he said, man, I'll just, he goes, I'd rather live in my car. And I was like, then live in your car, man.

01:34:36.34
Mike
Yeah.

01:34:36.60
Jim O'Connor
Like, then do that.

01:34:37.66
Bill
yeah

01:34:38.48
Jim O'Connor
Like, listen to yourself, right?

01:34:38.68
Mike
Yeah.

01:34:38.81
Bill
Right.

01:34:39.32
Mike
Yeah. We, we all have choices.

01:34:41.50
Jim O'Connor
um Of course you can live in your car and just, to you know, you'll be called, call me in 30 days after that if you make it.

01:34:42.18
Bill
Right.

01:34:43.99
Mike
Yeah. Until you don't have a car anymore.

01:34:49.05
Jim O'Connor
Like,

01:34:49.14
Mike
Right.

01:34:49.43
Bill
Right?

01:34:50.23
Jim O'Connor
um which is exactly what will happen.

01:34:52.34
Mike
Yeah.

01:34:52.54
Jim O'Connor
and And no, it's it's um it's great to have you guys.

01:34:52.98
Mike
Hopefully.

01:34:57.14
Jim O'Connor
I mean, honestly, it's great to to know that you're out there.

01:35:00.25
Mike
Yeah, it's great to know that you're out there.

01:35:00.44
Jim O'Connor
um

01:35:02.46
Mike
Fuck us.

01:35:02.52
Bill
Exactly.

01:35:04.61
Jim O'Connor
It's no, really. And, and we'll given us an opportunity, given us an opportunity, given, given us an opportunity um to talk about what we're doing.

01:35:06.49
Mike
No, really.

01:35:12.22
Jim O'Connor
I it's um it's really moving.

01:35:12.60
Mike
Yeah.

01:35:15.92
Jim O'Connor
It's really like, you know, when you see somebody make it, you're like, let's do that again.

01:35:19.54
Mike
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:35:20.30
Jim O'Connor
Let's just do that again.

01:35:20.78
Bill
right

01:35:21.38
Jim O'Connor
and let's do it again. and and what you, what you heard at the Keating center, I was told,

01:35:23.10
Mike
Mm-hmm.

01:35:26.87
Jim O'Connor
at the program I went to. um And I, you know, when I was in it, when you're in the middle of it, it's, you know, it's, it's hard to see, it you can't see it.

01:35:32.95
Mike
Yeah. since Uh-huh.

01:35:36.18
Jim O'Connor
Right.

01:35:36.58
Mike
Right.

01:35:37.59
Jim O'Connor
And I was told pretty much the same thing, but I was lucky enough to then get to direct that program and sure shit.

01:35:39.77
Mike
Yeah.

01:35:42.98
Mike
Mm-hmm.

01:35:44.50
Jim O'Connor
I can say with like six years experience of watching guys in in a good program like that, absolutely a hundred percent,

01:35:50.98
Mike
Right.

01:35:54.74
Mike
Yeah.

01:35:55.19
Jim O'Connor
of the men that just stuck with the program that followed the deal, that took the deal and lived up to it, a hundred percent got full-time jobs, a hundred percent moved out into their own independent living situations.

01:35:59.61
Mike
Mm-hmm.

01:36:02.00
Bill
Right.

01:36:02.15
Mike
Mm-hmm. Yeah, right.

01:36:05.54
Bill
Yeah.

01:36:07.83
Mike
Yes, yes.

01:36:09.13
Jim O'Connor
A hundred percent.

01:36:10.65
Mike
Well, you know the original wording of how it works, right?

01:36:11.14
Bill
Right.

01:36:14.94
Mike
Did you ever hear it?

01:36:15.66
Jim O'Connor
Yeah.

01:36:15.78
Mike
They read it at Founders Day every year. it's It's not rarely have we seen. No, it's we've never seen a person fail who's thoroughly followed our path.

01:36:22.55
Jim O'Connor
Yeah.

01:36:24.87
Mike
That's the original wording in the big book. And they changed it to rarely because they softened it. They started softening the shit from the day one. But yeah, the original wording was never have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path.

01:36:35.38
Jim O'Connor
Yeah, I think

01:36:37.78
Mike
Absolutely.

01:36:39.29
Jim O'Connor
I, you know, if you if you know the history, I just, I learned something recently when you talk about the suffering. I have a, one of my my partner in this project is a guy named Eric Christensen.

01:36:48.36
Mike
Mm-hmm.

01:36:48.82
Jim O'Connor
um I call him, cow his nickname is Cowboy. And for the first two or three years I i knew him, I didn't know he it was just Cowboy, right?

01:36:52.24
Mike
Yeah. Right. Yeah. Sure.

01:36:55.90
Jim O'Connor
um He's over 20 years sober and he has, he was a guy, you know, especially in his first 10 years was just on fire with the program, started meetings from scratch over and over again.

01:37:03.99
Mike
Right. Mm-hmm.

01:37:06.62
Jim O'Connor
And he we were talking about how few big book meetings we see that we don't see as many as there used to be.

01:37:12.44
Mike
Mm-hmm.

01:37:12.95
Bill
Right.

01:37:14.17
Mike
Right.

01:37:15.48
Jim O'Connor
And he pointed out real clearly, he said they started um they started diminishing in the 80s when more people were going to rehabs and the group sharing kind of made its way out of the rehab

01:37:24.79
Mike
here

01:37:30.14
Jim O'Connor
you know the group therapy kind of made its way into 12-step rooms, right?

01:37:31.70
Mike
Right. here

01:37:33.86
Jim O'Connor
And so there's more there's more meetings now where people share, which is great.

01:37:37.43
Mike
Right.

01:37:38.74
Jim O'Connor
I mean, I'm not making a judgment, but you see, and and those have taken the place of just the straight old big book meetings where people,

01:37:39.19
Mike
hey Sure.

01:37:45.08
Mike
Yeah. Yeah.

01:37:47.35
Jim O'Connor
this is it, right? Like you're we're not, we're not that interested in what you think or feel about it.

01:37:48.70
Mike
Yeah. Right.

01:37:52.55
Jim O'Connor
Like we're going to tell you um we wrote a whole book about it.

01:37:52.99
Mike
Mm-hmm. Right. Yes.

01:37:56.75
Jim O'Connor
Like it's, it's pretty much covered here.

01:37:56.98
Mike
Yes. Yeah, exactly.

01:37:59.45
Jim O'Connor
And I, I think that rarely probably came in to address, you know, people with some serious mental health issues um you know, that for whom it's difficult or may need extra help.

01:38:10.02
Jim O'Connor
But, but yeah, I, I don't, I mean,

01:38:10.04
Mike
Sure. Right.

01:38:14.74
Jim O'Connor
I always see those failures not being the failure of the program.

01:38:15.56
Mike
Mm-hmm.

01:38:18.22
Jim O'Connor
and And it's a real simple thing that I've said is the deal doesn't change. You wanted to change the deal.

01:38:22.87
Mike
Yeah, yeah, exactly.

01:38:25.50
Jim O'Connor
Right.

01:38:25.63
Mike
Yep.

01:38:25.78
Jim O'Connor
And I had a guy, I remember hearing a guy talk about getting married. He said, i so he goes, I love my wife. I stood on the altar, put a ring on her finger. We said to rich or poor, till death who her do us part.

01:38:38.07
Jim O'Connor
And absolutely a hundred percent meant it. And in nine months later, I'm thinking about whether or not I can have a girlfriend on the side.

01:38:45.12
Mike
Yeah.

01:38:45.94
Jim O'Connor
And he's, you know, he's half joking whatever.

01:38:48.18
Mike
yeah

01:38:48.73
Jim O'Connor
And it dawned on me, had been talking about this deal and i'm like, yeah, you wanted to change the deal. Like you made a deal.

01:38:52.90
Mike
Yeah. Mm-hmm.

01:38:55.13
Jim O'Connor
And here's the thing, like, you know, your ego repairs, you get bored, you know, your thoughts and feelings coming to play and somehow or another, you're going to change it.

01:39:00.84
Mike
Uh-huh.

01:39:03.50
Mike
Uh-huh. Yep.

01:39:06.01
Jim O'Connor
And, you know, if you just stick to it, it works out way better.

01:39:08.66
Mike
Mm-hmm.

01:39:11.61
Jim O'Connor
Right? Like, I'm going to go back and make some amendments to this, these 12 steps and do it my way.

01:39:15.83
Mike
Yeah.

01:39:17.23
Jim O'Connor
And I think if we just do that, it's like, just shut up, you know.

01:39:19.96
Bill
Right yep exactly exactly so any anything else Jim that that we've missed anything else you want you want to talk about.

01:39:19.93
Mike
Yes.

01:39:24.92
Jim O'Connor
No, i I want to say one thing.

01:39:26.94
Bill
Jim Collison,

01:39:27.99
Jim O'Connor
um And it's something that I want to say like everywhere I get the chance and I say it as often I can in meetings.

01:39:28.12
Mike
Yes.

01:39:31.55
Mike
Yep.

01:39:33.35
Jim O'Connor
um For absolutely everybody in recovery, I don't know your audience, but but particularly for people who are earlier, um you know, or recovery curious, they call it adjacent.

01:39:40.49
Mike
Mm-hmm.

01:39:44.74
Mike
Right.

01:39:44.82
Jim O'Connor
um I usually, somebody, I did one other podcast and they asked, they said, what do you tell somebody who's curious about this?

01:39:44.91
Bill
Right.

01:39:51.38
Jim O'Connor
I'm like, well, if you're listening to this, you should go to a meeting.

01:39:53.04
Mike
Yelp. yeah

01:39:53.86
Jim O'Connor
Yeah. I'm like, that's, it's a done deal. Like, don't like what, like normal people are not listening.

01:39:57.24
Mike
ye

01:40:00.25
Bill
No.

01:40:00.31
Mike
Right.

01:40:00.92
Jim O'Connor
I mean, some are, and God bless them. um But I have a a really, really special person who is and a magical therapist and um a person who who died with many years sober and and was a 12 step um devotee. Yeah.

01:40:24.06
Jim O'Connor
she She said something to me near her deathbed um that just, it hit me. and And I want to tell anybody out there that if you're thinking about this, if you're near recovery, if you're suffering, and really anybody, you know, 90% of what recovery is, is learning how to deal with suffering.

01:40:41.22
Mike
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

01:40:41.43
Jim O'Connor
um we We suffered so poorly before and now we get to choose to do it a different way.

01:40:41.71
Bill
Right.

01:40:46.23
Jim O'Connor
um And she looked at me and said, you're so important. You're so important. You're so important. And that's the thing that I, that anytime I get a chance that that anybody in recovery to remember where you were, um there was a time where you're suffering and it was absolutely unbearable.

01:41:04.79
Jim O'Connor
um But then and now you are so important. You are so important. You are so important.

01:41:12.02
Bill
Very cool.

01:41:12.15
Mike
Beautiful.

01:41:13.02
Bill
Very nice. All right. Well, um Mike is going to run us out of here. Don't go away. Don't go away, Jim. We're going to, he's going a little wrap up and then we'll, we'll do a final wrap up before we get out of here. But it's time for you and I, Jim, to quiet down for a minute. And Mike's going to run us out of here.

01:41:27.38
Jim O'Connor
Thanks so much, guys.

01:41:27.80
Mike
All right.

01:41:28.46
Jim O'Connor
Thank you.

01:41:28.76
Mike
Thank you, man. Well, thank you everyone for listening to yet another episode of Sober Not Mature. Thank you, Jim, for being on our little podcast here and for doing all the shit you do because it's really cool. And you guys go out there and give them some fucking money.

01:41:42.97
Mike
you know I always talk, I say every every week, right? you know Go out there do something nice for somebody and don't tell anybody you did it. Well, hey, go out there and do something nice. Here's your opportunity. We've handed it to you on a silver platter.

01:41:55.77
Mike
Now, from the bottom of my heart to the depths of my soul, from the beginning of time until the ends of the earth, always and eternally forever,

01:42:07.67
Mike
Fuck you. And now it's time, kids. It's time for you to fuck off. Then keep fucking off. Keep fucking off till you get to a gate with a sign on it saying, you cannot fuck off past here.

01:42:20.95
Mike
Climb over that gate. Dream the impossible dream and keep fucking off forever.

01:42:29.82
Bill
that's That's our fun way to end the podcast every time, Jim. And we've been doing that for a little bit. So yeah obviously it's ah it's always a little bit of fun that we have with people. So 100%, 100% though, um we appreciate obviously having you on.

01:42:40.82
Jim O'Connor
That's a riot.

01:42:42.49
Mike
a

01:42:47.51
Bill
um Everyone, like Mike said, yeah, what a perfect opportunity to get out there and do something nice for these guys. They're doing good things for people. the the click down in the description or just go to boots boots on let's go.com and donate anything that you need, Jim.

01:43:01.59
Bill
I mean, obviously let us know, let Ryan know to get whatever he can to us and we'll promote it. But yeah, thank you again. We truly, truly appreciate it Okay.

01:43:09.27
Jim O'Connor
Thank you, guys. You're awesome.

01:43:10.65
Bill
Yeah. Not a problem.

01:43:10.90
Mike
Thanks, man.

01:43:11.83
Jim O'Connor
You got it.

01:43:12.02
Bill
Mike, I love you, brother.

01:43:13.91
Mike
I love you too.

01:43:15.06
Bill
i know you and I will talk soon.

01:43:15.16
Jim O'Connor
Take good care, guys.

01:43:16.70
Bill
Hopefully Jim, we'll talk soon also. Right.

01:43:18.07
Jim O'Connor
You will take good care.

01:43:19.70
Bill
All right.

01:43:19.87
Mike
Bye.

01:43:20.30
Bill
Bye.

01:43:20.67
Jim O'Connor
Bye-bye.

01:43:20.89
Mike
bye