SoberNotMature - Episode 191 (Tony H. - It's All About The Art Of Living)

00:00:01.57
Bill
All right, everyone, welcome once again to another episode of Sober, Not Mature. And yeah, for anyone out there that actually believes in hell, it froze over for the second time in the last couple of months.

00:00:15.04
Bill
But a couple of months ago, Tony, we have a guest tonight, everyone, so don't worry, you don't have to just listen to me, I promise. ah We have our our buddy Tony on tonight, but ah get yeah I'll introduce him for a minute in a minute. But um yeah, a couple of months ago, Tony, we Mike had a personal emergency um that he had to

00:00:26.44
Tony
Thank you.

00:00:31.19
Bill
Miss recording. So as we had a guest on, so it was good. And Tony and I were talking a little bit before we started recording. And it's not that we wouldn't have recorded tonight had we not had a guest. um We just would have done it at some ungodly hour tonight when Mike got done working. So um he drives a truck. Everyone knows that's listened. He got stuck out on the road today just with doing what he does.

00:00:50.70
Bill
um So Mike will not be with us tonight, but we do have a guest. And first of all, um Tony, introduce yourself. Tell us who you are, where you're from. Just a brief intro, and then we'll get into things.

00:01:00.87
Tony
Yeah, absolutely. My name's ah Tony Hart. I live in Morgantown, West Virginia, and I've been around the rooms for 36 years now, and just 36, and I'm excited to be on here with you tonight.

00:01:13.93
Bill
That's it, huh? Just 36?

00:01:21.44
Bill
Well, good. And i and that you're also, you're a fellow sober curator of ours, or not of ours, but you're a fellow sober curator, which is how we um you know kind of got to got to know each other or at least got introduced through that medium. So we'll talk about that.

00:01:33.97
Bill
um But I want to talk, we'll end up talking about West Virginia because um I was actually in Charleston for a couple of weeks last year at this time, literally as of tomorrow last year, I was in West Virginia for a couple of weeks and I'll tell you why and when we talk about it, but I'd love to talk. I love the state.

00:01:50.41
Bill
It's freaking beautiful.

00:01:51.46
Tony
It's gorgeous.

00:01:51.67
Bill
Um, and then actually tomorrow I'm heading down to a Lake of the Ozarks. Uh, I'm going to be down there for a few weeks. I've been there. This will be my fifth time to that area. Another area that I've literally fallen in love, love with.

00:02:00.69
Tony
Nice. Yeah.

00:02:03.78
Bill
Um, but, uh, you know, I don't, I don't take, it's not a three week vacation. Everyone else knows it's listening, but, um, I work when I travel. So during the week I live my normal life and I work on the weekends, I hit hiking trails and go see the nice things and that sort of thing.

00:02:14.64
Tony
yeah

00:02:16.12
Bill
But, um, I do, and I, I, I, didn't I knew you'd end up bringing it up, but obviously didn't want to forget to talk about West Virginia because I enjoyed myself there. i had ah I had a really good time. But um I know there's things we want to talk about. You have a you have a blog, um website and blog, correct?

00:02:34.36
Tony
ah Yeah, exactly.

00:02:35.17
Bill
Okay.

00:02:36.32
Tony
so

00:02:36.26
Bill
And you're the yeah obviously with the Sober Curator. We'll talk about that. And we do want to get into your into your story. And i know you said you've been around, obviously, the rooms and, you know, the obviously sorority for a while. Clearly, 36 years is ah is a little while.

00:02:49.16
Bill
So the way that we do, and we want to hear your story, and obviously this is going to be the time for you to tell it. um But i this is usually the part that Mike bike says, so I'll do it in his words and how we like to approach it.

00:02:59.40
Tony
Yep, yep.

00:02:59.91
Bill
um We all know how to to fuck up our lives and fuck up the lives of other people around us and all the people around us. um We're not fans of drunkologues. We actually despise drunkologues.

00:03:08.66
Tony
ye yeah

00:03:09.65
Bill
um We want to hear about and we want to hear about what people are doing, the solution, you know. um But here's the deal. You understand the word qualify. I know if you've been around here for a little while.

00:03:20.11
Bill
So we want to hear a little bit about your background. We want you to qualify a little bit, but what we don't want to do is sit here for an hour and talk about, you know, drunk stories. It comes up and you, you know, you know what I'm talking about.

00:03:30.40
Bill
You've, you've been around for a couple of years and you know, the funny part is, and just a quick side note, we,

00:03:30.63
Tony
Yeah, yeah.

00:03:35.99
Bill
Mike and I have both been sober for same amount of time, about 15 and a half years now. And at the time that we got sober, you know, we, of course, had to go to meetings and it was fine. We were in Cleveland. Great place for AA. Got down to Akron. We go to Founders Day every every year. So good, solid AA.

00:03:53.84
Bill
um But after a while, i be honest with you, going to these meetings all the time, it got it was very early in our sobriety that we got really tired of drunkologs. You know, you you're sitting there for, you know, 40, 45 minutes, you know, listen to this guy.

00:04:04.18
Tony
Yeah.

00:04:07.43
Bill
And all a sudden he's like, oh, yeah. And then when I get sober, I do help out. I sponsor a few people. I've got my family back. I got a great job. And, up you know, let's let's pray. And we're like, well, what the fuck, man?

00:04:16.92
Tony
That wasn't much help.

00:04:18.50
Bill
Yeah, I mean, it's to begin with when when you're, you know, two, three months old, you've got to be able to relate to something. But even beyond that, for the new folks, in my opinion, um I don't want to hear about how you fuck things up.

00:04:30.08
Bill
I know how to do that. That's why Mike says it that way.

00:04:32.50
Tony
Yeah.

00:04:32.97
Bill
We all know how to do that. But what are you doing, you know, for for 36 years? What are we doing for 15 years? That's the that's the good stuff, you know?

00:04:41.25
Tony
yeah

00:04:41.19
Bill
Yeah.

00:04:41.74
Tony
Absolutely.

00:04:43.03
Bill
So um take your time.

00:04:43.36
Tony
Yeah.

00:04:44.45
Bill
You know, i mean obviously tell tell your story. You got 36 years of ah things to pick from. But Tony, this is your time. So roll with it.

00:04:51.95
Tony
Yeah, well, I'm glad you brought up the drunkologue because i I dropped my resume a long time ago in my ah and my story.

00:04:59.00
Bill
Good.

00:05:01.00
Tony
So I'll just kind of go back to kind of pre-insanity. You know, I didn't have any childhood trauma.

00:05:14.19
Tony
You know I was an early Gen Xer, so, you know, ah good ass whipping with a belt was not child abuse back then. and

00:05:22.79
Bill
Right.

00:05:24.22
Tony
you know, my parents showed me love and they were both hardworking and my sister and I never, you know, went without. ah We grew up out in the country, you know wasn't allowed in the house unless the weather was shit. So,

00:05:39.37
Tony
I was out there licking rocks and catching crawdads and shooting everything in sight with my BB gun and, you know, just existing just barely above that intellectual disability line.

00:05:52.69
Bill
Right.

00:05:53.15
Tony
Um, so, know, I got, I got into, you know, school and I was, uh, you know, the three sports a year, ah kind of all the way through high school, but the last two years were pretty half-assed, uh,

00:06:08.69
Tony
You know, I didn't have any worse high school experiences than anybody else. I was mediocre athlete, mediocre student. So, you know, there's there's really nothing in my childhood that I point back to and say, oh, yeah, that really fucked me up.

00:06:23.75
Tony
um So as i do look back, though, that it's and I even after 36 years, I can't completely peel this onion But somewhere along the line, I bought into the belief that I was not enough.

00:06:35.56
Bill
Right.

00:06:42.37
Tony
You know, didn't sit around thinking about it, ah but but my actions and my behaviors were, you know, all about people pleasing and trying to fit in. And, you know, I was never told by my parents that I wasn't enough and, you know, didn't have bad teachers. But somewhere along the line,

00:07:01.87
Tony
you know, I, I just, that got planted in my brain that, that I'm just not enough.

00:07:06.80
Bill
Right.

00:07:07.53
Tony
Um, and I wasn't real comfortable with that. So by time I hit 16, kind of, a switch flipped and I just went, you know, fuck it.

00:07:19.94
Tony
I'm tired of trying to be enough. So self-destruction it is. um Again, not a conscious thought, but but my behavior definitely shifted. and That's about the time i I started using. But from here, my story, I kinda kind of break it down into three car crashes.

00:07:39.97
Tony
um yeah it's Yeah, exactly.

00:07:42.30
Bill
that's ah That's a great way to put it.

00:07:45.50
Tony
you know, the first one was just shy of my 19th birthday, and I wasn't involved. But my parents were coming home from the 4th of July... uh celebration and they were hit head on at highway speeds by a drunk driver uh and really shouldn't have survived it i mean it was uh you know 1970s 8 000 pound car that hit him and you know the ga guy guy uh lost his child in the accident and um but anyway i was i was house sitting for some family friends

00:07:59.64
Bill
Oh, boy.

00:08:11.46
Bill
Oh, sure.

00:08:24.82
Tony
And I got the call from my sister that mom and dad were in a wreck and they were in the hospital and she didn't really go into any detail. And I was just so hung over and out of it. I just went back to sleep.

00:08:36.61
Tony
um So I wake up several hours later, go to the hospital. know, I see my dad laying in the bed where he's had like six feet of his bowels removed and you know, he's just in bad shape. And my mom's leg went through the floorboard. She was driving. She ended up losing her leg from the knee down.

00:09:00.39
Bill
Right.

00:09:00.87
Tony
And so I was just, you know, traumatized by the time I got there. um But, ah you know, I didn't didn't think much about it, but, um you know, clearly it shook me, but it wasn't enough for me to like, you know,

00:09:19.62
Tony
get all self-reflective and say, Hey, you know what? I drive drunk all the time.

00:09:24.26
Bill
right

00:09:24.99
Tony
Maybe I could be putting somebody in this position. um so no, zero self-reflection at that stage. But, uh, about a year later was rec number two, uh, friend of mine.

00:09:36.09
Bill
Well, let me stop you real quick. And i didn't mean to I didn't mean to laugh to begin with when you said car crashes.

00:09:37.49
Tony
Yeah.

00:09:39.81
Tony
No, no,

00:09:40.60
Bill
i thought you were I didn't know you meant real car crashes, so I apologize.

00:09:43.24
Tony
no, no,

00:09:44.16
Bill
I thought you were like saying that youre you were you were comparing your a stages of your life to like as if they were car crashes.

00:09:49.66
Tony
Oh no.

00:09:50.76
Bill
so So let me just step in. So anyone who thinks I'm a dick for laughing at the fact that he's you know this this tragic car accident, I did not know he meant real car accidents.

00:09:58.24
Tony
ah It's, it's, it it's okay.

00:09:59.32
Bill
I'm just just explaining myself. So I apologize. No, these are real car crashes. So I just, why that's kind of like, that's, that's like a 10 step right there, Tony.

00:10:04.74
Tony
it Yeah.

00:10:08.10
Bill
I apologize when I was wrong.

00:10:08.89
Tony
that's

00:10:11.16
Bill
So I'm going to, I got to promptly admit it. So there you go. Go ahead.

00:10:14.36
Tony
Yeah.

00:10:14.32
Bill
Sorry about that.

00:10:14.56
Tony
yeah Trust me. You can't hurt my feelings.

00:10:15.92
Bill
Yeah.

00:10:16.92
Tony
So, um,

00:10:17.73
Bill
yeah

00:10:19.37
Tony
But about about a year later, my one of my best friends and I were at the end of a full weekend party and we were heading back to our apartment. And I blacked out and missed a curve and and wrapped the car around a telephone pole.

00:10:36.79
Tony
And it was the impact was on his side of the car. um And all I can remember about the whole thing was basically I crawled out of the ditch and

00:10:45.85
Bill
Right.

00:10:49.90
Tony
you know, some bystander, it stopped. And, and, and I asked them if they had a piece of gum. So, you know, my buddy's writhing in pain with a butt busted hip.

00:11:00.66
Bill
right

00:11:02.28
Tony
And I'm like, hey you got some fucking gum? Uh, you know, so it's just, uh, that, that was just bad. And if we want to talk about some shame and regrets later, I can, I got a good story there for you.

00:11:16.74
Bill
Right.

00:11:17.19
Tony
Um, But the third crash was the morning of my 21st birthday. so I had friends that ah owned a bar, so i was able to get in there early before I turned 21 and pretty much got blackout smashed the whole night.

00:11:37.33
Tony
um And the next morning, the landlord called and said he needed the rent. and I was broke as shit, so I decided I'd just jump out of bed and head to my parents' house and try to get some money. That was about five miles away. And ah along the road to my parents, there's a there's ah another curve and there's a just like a freestanding boulder that's about half the size of a car.

00:12:07.52
Tony
So I missed that corner, ah ran my car into that boulder. I flew out the windshield ah my My car was still airborne and landed like 15, 20 feet from me.

00:12:16.49
Bill
ba

00:12:25.98
Tony
And then, you know, unfortunately, i'm not sure that she was the first one on the scene, but my mom was coming back from the grocery store and she was one of the early people on the scene.

00:12:38.27
Tony
so I'm like, you can you imagine the trauma of seeing your drunk kid laying on the ground after you'd almost been killed by a drunk driver?

00:12:45.84
Bill
Oh, yeah, I couldn't imagine.

00:12:46.91
Tony
You know, so, uh, so that happened and, and, you know, I was apparently awake, but my brain didn't like kick back in until, later on when like a nurse was pulling glass out of my body.

00:13:03.96
Tony
um but then couple of days after that, my, my parents sat me down and my uncle had gone through rehab six months, uh, before I did.

00:13:16.53
Tony
And it didn't take a whole lot of convincing, but they convinced me maybe it was a good idea to go into rehab. So i think it was the next day, actually, went into rehab and I was in there for 45 days.

00:13:33.86
Tony
And, you know, I pretty much picked up the big book probably on like day two. And I had read it, you know, front to back by day five.

00:13:45.89
Tony
And I'm like,

00:13:46.09
Bill
right

00:13:47.25
Tony
I'm like, okay, this is me. This is where I belong. And truly left rehab with like the in my heart belief that, you know, if I if i drank or drugged again, that that I'd die.

00:14:04.32
Tony
you know, it may not be that day, ah but it was going to lead to death.

00:14:06.31
Bill
right

00:14:08.39
Tony
so And I've told my friends and my family ever since, I'm like, if you ever see me pick up a drink, or start drugging, you know, i want to die, right?

00:14:20.24
Bill
Right.

00:14:20.77
Tony
So that's, that's just, yeah that's the mentality that I've kind of had from, from day one. And so I threw, go ahead.

00:14:28.72
Bill
So real quick, though, you were you were you were 21 or it just turned 21 at that time that you went into rehab.

00:14:30.54
Tony
Yeah.

00:14:33.55
Tony
Yeah, exactly. So

00:14:35.11
Bill
OK, that's that's what I thought. So I mean, third car accident, I mean, involving or surrounding that the first one, not necessarily you drinking in that one, but. So the third one and you were you were barely 21 and all those sort of things. So, OK, I just wanted to make sure to put a time frame on that. But the other thing, too, and I'm glad you brought that up, because um Mike and I talk about that at the same time. I'm when when it comes to and and I can't even imagine, I mean, the the number of how many people you've seen relapse. And I mean, thankful that you see a number of them come back. But then the unfortunate part is there's a number that don't.

00:15:09.17
Bill
um

00:15:09.60
Tony
Yep.

00:15:09.96
Bill
you know And I'm of the opinion that i'm I am an egotist better than I was, but I'm still an egotist. And I'm convinced, and I've said this openly on here and I said it openly in meetings, I don't think if if I choose to drink again,

00:15:25.75
Bill
I don't think I'm coming back. I wouldn't, I don't think that my ego would let me, but more importantly is what you just said. If I get to the point where I think that taking a drink is a good idea, I've already decided that I don't give a fuck.

00:15:40.40
Bill
And I'm, I'm convinced that if if everything, if everything that's been told to me, everything that's in that book, everything that I've heard at meetings and everything that I've, ah that I've experienced with people, if I believe all of that and I do,

00:15:40.90
Tony
Right.

00:15:53.77
Bill
that we don't get, you know, basically we're just laying dormant here for, you know, for you for 36 years, for us for 15 plus years. If you're three, five, doesn't matter, you're dormant and possibly even um your disease grows stronger within that timeframe. So if you pick up again, not only are you where you started off, sometimes you're worse.

00:16:12.71
Bill
And if that's the case, I was almost dead when I got sober. So logic tells me that I'm going to die. It may not be that day, but I think it's going to be pretty goddamn quick, you know.

00:16:23.41
Bill
um And I'm glad you brought that up because we feel the same exact way. Same way.

00:16:28.35
Tony
Yeah. And I, I've got, uh, you know, I, I understand that relapses is, is part of the process here that, you know, some people, uh, you know, just haven't hit their bottom or just haven't, you know, completely gotten to where they need to get to, to really get sober or, you know, they don't make it or whatever else. And I, I hold no judgment there. I've just been fortunate enough to,

00:16:57.53
Tony
you know, set that mindset in early that, you know, this is a life or death choice for me. So, yeah.

00:17:03.99
Bill
Right. Well, it even it even talks about that in the big book. You know, if you if you don't believe us, if you want to go out and and literally it says in the big book, you know, for for anyone who's not, and we we have listeners that we have some normies that listen to us, which is weird, but actually very cool.

00:17:09.18
Tony
Yeah.

00:17:17.62
Bill
You know, so people who don't have a problem, obviously, with alcohol or drugs. We've got, I believe, some newer folks and some people that sober for, you know, for a while. But um we've got a lot of people I know for a fact, we know for a fact that are not 12 step people, which is fine. Do what you got to do to stay sober.

00:17:32.66
Bill
um But for anyone who has never read the big book, there is, there's a section in there. don't I'm not a um not a page and number, you know, and paragraph, you know, big book person, but but it does.

00:17:39.98
Tony
ah Right.

00:17:42.12
Bill
It talks about if you don't believe that, you know, you've got a problem, um go out and try it. Try controlled drinking. They go through this whole list of things. And Mike always laughs at it the phrase natural wines. He said, I still don't understand what a natural wine is. Yeah.

00:17:58.26
Bill
You know, but if you've used to drink beer, try booze. If you used to drink at night, try during the day. If you drank in the day, all this different stuff, you know, so it does. It's like, if you don't think you've got a problem, go out and test it. But um yeah, I mean, I'll tell you what, I thankfully, and the same thing.

00:18:13.58
Bill
This is my, and I, again, I've said it on here before and I don't look at this as a, I don't say this to to brag. He says, I'm grateful that I haven't had the, I haven't had to go out and take a drink again.

00:18:25.22
Bill
Um, this is my first run at this thing. I've never relapsed yet. Um, I never tried to get sober before the time. Um, cause I was, I think I was too stupid too delusional, you know, to think that I had a problem, you know, but when I got into it, I just, all I did was I was in a safe place.

00:18:39.22
Bill
I stuck around long enough. Um, nine months was a critical point, which we've talked about on here before. But the key is, is that, um, and we try to tell people that, and I'm sure you've told plenty of people, if you have an inkling, just come in and stick around for a minute, um,

00:18:53.90
Bill
or a day or a week or a month. And this stuff will sink in. If it's you, it's going to sink in. Nobody's trying to trick you. You know, there's no secret. You know, there there's nobody's holding anything back. Everyone's going to be honest with you.

00:19:07.03
Bill
Whether you go to a 12 step group or any other type of recovery related type of circumstance, people are there to try to help you. And if the shoe fits with the fucking thing on and wear it. Yeah.

00:19:17.69
Tony
Yeah, and you hear, i mean, you hear repeatedly that that people that come back that said if they spent any time in AA that it just ruined their drinking.

00:19:28.17
Bill
Yeah. I mean, to me, that that's so goddamn fun, you know, and and we always we always talk about, you know, that 20 minutes of pleasure, regardless of whether you're, I mean, I wasn't a drug user. I was a straight up a straightup drunk, you know, but that, you know, that 15, 20 minutes, that first drink, that first hit, whatever it is, and maybe that maybe all of us have had the best already when we first, the first thing that we ever, you know, drank or used, maybe we already had the best feeling we're ever going to have, and that's what we've been chasing,

00:19:55.64
Bill
But I couldn't even imagine going back out. and And that's the thing. i would have to be like we were just talking about a minute ago. I would have to be in a circumstance with a complete, complete mindset of you know, the fuck it's I don't care. I'm done.

00:20:11.08
Bill
I'm going to die. I'm going to drink myself to death. So whatever this, you know, head full of AA or recovery, is doesn it doesn't doesn't fucking matter. But if I was on the fence about it, I don't know how I could drink.

00:20:17.86
Tony
Yeah.

00:20:20.68
Bill
It would be miserable. You know?

00:20:23.28
Tony
Yeah, Yeah, it took it took me a little while to kind of settle into a a Back when I got sober, there was still a little bit of a stigma kind of around low-bottom drunks.

00:20:37.61
Bill
Oh, sure.

00:20:40.52
Tony
And I just told people that my ah my journey was short, but i assure you it was done with the pedal to the metal with a blindfold on.

00:20:55.42
Bill
So was that when you got sober or when at 21, that's when you got sober?

00:21:00.19
Tony
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

00:21:00.78
Bill
That was it. Oh, that was the time.

00:21:01.39
Tony
So it was like 16 to 21.

00:21:01.86
Bill
No shit. Okay.

00:21:05.30
Tony
was a whole five-year career. i I think I've heard it said before that, you know, i went professional early and retired.

00:21:14.13
Bill
Right.

00:21:15.44
Tony
Yeah.

00:21:15.57
Bill
Yeah, I love that. I've seen that on Instagram and Facebook. And yeah, I just went pro and retired early.

00:21:19.08
Tony
yeah

00:21:21.86
Tony
yeah

00:21:21.83
Bill
And that's true. I mean, both of us, I got sober at 41. Mike got sober at 43. mean, literally, he and from... um i mean literally he and i from A lot of ways we live parallel lives, um but very, very different backgrounds. um And if you ever ever had nothing else to do, um you know, to hear our stories, they're they're very different. It's the first episode is mine.

00:21:42.70
Bill
um The third episode is his story. Mine's really short, 25 minutes or so. ah Mike's is, I think, close to an hour. um He's got, ah when when he told his story on here, um It was great. I mean, but there was things in there that I that I knew, of course, but things in there that I didn't because Mike and I have known we got sober at the same place. We've known each other the entire time.

00:22:02.00
Bill
um

00:22:02.13
Tony
Right, that's awesome.

00:22:02.62
Bill
And that's where we oh, I'd say that's where we met. That's where we got, you know, got closest friends and we become family over the years. You know, so, I mean, he's, he and I are family now. That's, that's what it is.

00:22:13.69
Bill
And, uh, you know, he became, ah my biological family. He, you know, kind of got, I don't even want to say welcomed in just pretty much. We joke, you know, he came to Easter one time we fed him and he never went away, you know?

00:22:24.20
Tony
yeah There you go.

00:22:24.12
Bill
So, and that was, that was at about a year and a year and a couple of months. Well, no, it would have been, yeah, right. About a year sober. I think it, at that point. But um so, yeah, it's just it's it's it's interesting, um you know, to me, the the differences that people have. And, you know, if anyone looks at all anyone has to do is look at, you know, pictures of us on Instagram or look at anything, you know, look at our our podcast, um you know, the the actual logo picture.

00:22:50.78
Bill
We do not look alike. We do not look like we would belong together. um But we've we've walked the same path to sobriety from day one. We have different beliefs in a couple of things, but they're very few, which is really weird.

00:23:03.50
Tony
Yeah.

00:23:04.50
Bill
And I'm sure, I mean, you you have to have known and met people in this thing over the years that you're just like, I don't know how i get along with this the with this person.

00:23:04.65
Tony
Yeah.

00:23:11.56
Tony
yeah Right. Right.

00:23:12.27
Bill
It could be a man or a woman, but I mean, you do, right?

00:23:16.19
Tony
Yeah. That's, that's, I mean, that's critical and you, you are blessed to kind of have a brother in arms from the very beginning. When i when I got ah sober, I, I still lived in kind of the town I grew up with, grew up in and I was,

00:23:31.83
Bill
Right.

00:23:34.20
Tony
going to college there. So, you know, all my drinking buddies and all my party friends, I'd known them since kindergarten. You know, they they were they were my world, right? So yeah all my childhood memories, all that stuff. So, you know, I had to go out and and start fresh. So, you know, one of the key things I found early in sobriety was, was to find those people that you can hang out with outside of the rooms.

00:24:06.34
Bill
Right.

00:24:07.03
Tony
Um, you know, cause it just, it, it has to become a lifestyle.

00:24:11.88
Bill
Right.

00:24:12.18
Tony
Uh, can't just go into the rooms and practice your program and then go back out into the world. And, and, uh, anyway, that's true.

00:24:19.66
Bill
well Well, you can. is You're probably not going to be sick successful.

00:24:22.44
Tony
That's true. Yeah. I, I've known a few people, I've known a few people who have done it and, uh,

00:24:24.58
Bill
Or you're not going to be happy.

00:24:28.62
Bill
Mm-hmm.

00:24:29.77
Tony
that those are the ones you look around the room and you go, I want what they've got. I want what they've got. I don't want what they've got.

00:24:36.76
Bill
right

00:24:37.27
Tony
ah You know, but that is that is critical having, you know, thats that support outside of the meeting. So when I got out of college, I moved, I grew up in Indiana.

00:24:50.15
Tony
So I grew up in Muncie, which is just a little bit ah north of Indianapolis. So when I got out of college, I

00:24:56.85
Bill
sure

00:24:59.01
Tony
Went down to Indianapolis and just threw myself into AA there as well. But I i ended up with a great group of people and we'd go camping and you know, go just do all kinds of things together. And it was a real lifesaver for me.

00:25:15.80
Bill
Well, and kind of funny you mentioned Indiana. I'm actually, I'm sitting in Valparaiso, Indiana right now.

00:25:20.60
Tony
yeah.

00:25:21.00
Bill
Yeah. And the short story behind that, which again, I won't go into into law draw it out because again, everyone, anyone who's listened to us for a minute has heard it. But um are my sister lives down here and then our our mom moved up here 2015.

00:25:34.85
Bill
two thousand fifteen I think. Yeah. 2015, I believe. So she was in, ah she was in Portage. So not that far from here. And then our mom had some health issues. Long story short, she died coming up on three years ago.

00:25:48.29
Bill
And I came down here June 22. june of twenty two She died in October of But at at the time, I mean, she was getting to the point where she had her house and my, our sister was trying to take care of her own house and our mom's house and this and that.

00:26:01.72
Bill
So um I thankfully the company I was working for, let me go remote, came down here and I've been here ever since. And then I get into this whole travel thing that I do, which is that part of my hiking and the reason I am going down to the Ozarks and and whatever

00:26:08.51
Tony
Okay. Yeah.

00:26:14.64
Bill
So I i basically i i hang my hat here when I'm not traveling. I gave up my apartment in everything in in Milwaukee, the Milwaukee area where I was living. I've got adult kids, so they're they're good. I still get to see them. I've got a grandchild, all that stuff.

00:26:28.63
Bill
um You know, but yeah, came down to this area. But our our niece lives in West Lafayette, so down in in that area.

00:26:35.64
Tony
okay

00:26:36.60
Bill
She went to school at Purdue and then got a job through the YMCA down there and does ah just a wonderful job.

00:26:36.91
Tony
yeah

00:26:43.48
Bill
And she's just got a great little career for herself.

00:26:43.88
Tony
Nice.

00:26:46.05
Bill
And um yeah, I mean, Indiana, I joke about it that it's, ah you know, fucking Indiana, but it's.

00:26:51.10
Tony
right.

00:26:52.34
Bill
It's nice. It's a nice area. I mean, it's um I if if I had a choice that has nothing to do with the state, I wouldn't choose to live here because I just I've been in cold weather in Midwestern states my entire life.

00:27:05.92
Tony
ah right

00:27:05.96
Bill
um I stayed in Wisconsin for years because um we ended up there. Our family moved there. Our mom got a job with GE up there years ago. So that's how we ended up there. Kathy, our sister, went to college in Illinois and then never came back. Illinois and then Indiana, met her husband and blah, blah, blah. um Then our mom and our stepdad at that time moved back to Ohio.

00:27:27.46
Bill
But at that, then I was married and I had kids. And, you know, so I don't want to say stuck, but I ended up where Wisconsin became home.

00:27:33.60
Tony
Right. Yeah.

00:27:33.95
Bill
I love Wisconsin, but it's not that I've seen everything, but I've done that, you know.

00:27:38.80
Tony
yeah

00:27:39.12
Bill
Um, and that's where, you know, i want to, when when we talk about West Virginia, I'll tell you what I like about that, all those areas and stuff down there. But, um, so the, the, the biggest thing though, like you just said, as far as finding people outside the rooms, once again, we got lucky. We were in a place in Cleveland. It was a sober living facility.

00:27:55.99
Bill
So did you do after rehab, I guess, let me step aside. Um, after rehab, did you do anything inpatient outpatient? Did you do anything like that? Or you just out in the world after you 45 days?

00:28:06.38
Tony
I was just out in the world, just pretty it pretty much on my own and, you know, held myself accountable to doing the 90 and 90 and getting out there and getting numbers and all that good stuff.

00:28:08.33
Bill
yeah okay

00:28:18.18
Bill
Okay.

00:28:23.99
Tony
About, I think I was a little bit over a year sober. I went back to, ah I got a job at the rehab facility that I went to.

00:28:35.00
Bill
Oh, really? That's cool.

00:28:35.63
Tony
I wasn't a counselor or anything, but just kind of a ah cat herder. um And so, you know, between going to meetings and and working there through the rest of my college, I worked the graveyard shift there. um You know, it just just kept me close to sobriety. But but one thing...

00:29:02.38
Tony
uh that did happen while i was working there was like i said my uncle had gone through the same facility and i ah came into work one night and i saw my uncle's car and i was because i get in at 11 i'm like what the what the hell is he doing here so i get inside and when my my uncle and my boss pull me into you know a room up front and they're they're like um you know the guy that that hit your parents head on he just checked into rehab here.

00:29:34.56
Tony
Uh,

00:29:35.02
Bill
Oh, damn.

00:29:37.42
Tony
so, you know, I, I, I sat in that office for, know, a while and, you know, that was fucking just an emotional wreck at that point.

00:29:47.71
Bill
sure. Right.

00:29:48.39
Tony
Um, and it took me a couple of days to process it. Um, ah but the real thing that that came out was, you know, I'm no different than this guy.

00:30:01.56
Bill
right

00:30:01.94
Tony
I mean, I could have just as easily hit somebody head on. I could have easily killed somebody. I've got ah got no reason to be angry at this guy or to be you know, um anything. So oh we kind of, I mean, we he found out who I was and and everything. And we got along fine. And actually, as part of his therapy, my mom came in

00:30:32.58
Tony
And he had a discussion with her. So it was was traumatizing and kind of epiphany generating and healing all the same time.

00:30:45.54
Bill
Right. that's what I was going to say. I mean, that had to have been, um I mean, I've had some things pop up in my sobriety where, you know, you get the, these gut punches. I mean, nothing like that. Don't get me wrong. But, um, when you were talking about just sitting there, you know, in the office for whatever, it actually, even just taking a couple of days, I can only imagine for that, uh, to sit in and try to process that.

00:31:06.67
Bill
Um, but you know what, um, Once again, you're right, because I get ah Mike always says, i mean, he he never got a DUI because he never got caught. You know, um I only had one because I only got caught once.

00:31:19.91
Bill
You know, there I'd be a liar of if I said that, you know, i shouldn't have been caught 100 times. And that might be on the light side. You know, i I drove intoxicated, maybe not completely drunk, but I know I drove intoxicated.

00:31:34.87
Bill
easily under the influence of something, um, all the time.

00:31:38.71
Tony
Oh yeah.

00:31:38.65
Bill
And then impaired, I can't even tell you. And, um, I, I mean, by whatever grace is out there, whatever the deal is, yeah, you and I could have been in the same circumstances that dude walking into, into rehab.

00:31:52.19
Bill
I couldn't imagine being on the other side of it. Number one, um, you know, and having to deal with it from, from your standpoint, but that's what, that the word I was, when you said healing, I'm like, yeah, that had to have been, it,

00:32:04.00
Bill
You have to. you you i don't want to say have to, but if we want to move forward in this thing and in our life and and not have a resentment, just eat us alive. I mean, it was kind of a a must do for you to heal from that, right? And deal with it.

00:32:19.40
Tony
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, and that's like you said, you you get you get them, you know, throughout sobriety, you just just get better at at dealing with them. And I think just probably just putting things in perspective, right?

00:32:29.96
Bill
Right.

00:32:33.42
Tony
So, you know, early in sobriety, our perspective is still a little warped.

00:32:33.84
Bill
Right.

00:32:39.52
Tony
um and And we may not be able to, be you know, put the right toys in the right boxes, but

00:32:40.90
Bill
That's a good way to put it.

00:32:47.95
Bill
Right.

00:32:48.68
Tony
uh, you know, the longer you stick with it. And, and if you're really working at the program, working the steps and, and doing the shit you need to do, um you know, it, it levels out and you, you get to, uh, the point where you can handle stuff.

00:33:05.55
Tony
Like I, I'm on my fourth marriage and, uh, believe it or not, all of them have been when I'm sober. So, you know, it's, uh,

00:33:13.92
Bill
right

00:33:17.88
Tony
you just You just learn to to get through things and understand what's important, you know, and it's like, it been if I'm drunk, nothing matters.

00:33:29.37
Bill
Oh, God, yeah.

00:33:29.53
Tony
So, so.

00:33:31.32
Bill
Yeah, i had, I've got um two ex-wives that surprisingly enough, I started getting along with after I got sober.

00:33:39.08
Tony
Oh, there you go.

00:33:39.28
Bill
But those, yeah, those were, those were ah marriages and divorces that that happened prior to me getting sober.

00:33:39.66
Tony
Yeah. Huh.

00:33:46.32
Bill
um And, and I hurt them, not physically, but, you know, obviously the mental and mental anguish and verbal abuse and all that shit that you put, or that we put these people through, um you know, especially when it comes to spouses, it was terrible, you know, but yeah,

00:33:50.79
Tony
Sure.

00:34:00.07
Bill
I got fortunate that they that they gave me the opportunity now. and And I talk about this on on here all the time. I've been sober for, again, 15 plus years. I've had people that I've spent time with and that I've, you know, had intimate relationships with. And I don't try to be filthy about it. Sometimes I joke around and I get filthy about it, but I don't mean it that way.

00:34:18.23
Bill
had intimate relationships with people. But what I figured out is that I figured out that I can have, and I do, I have levels of love. And this was a ah complete, you talk about epiphany.

00:34:30.67
Bill
It was probably now, not maybe not 10 years ago, but close to it, seven, eight years ago, at least. I realized that, see, when, before I got sober, if I, if I was with somebody, um, somebody of the opposite sex and I, and I liked them, the, the distance between like and love and obsession was very short.

00:34:49.90
Bill
You know, I was all fucking in and that was really bad.

00:34:50.10
Tony
Yeah.

00:34:54.05
Bill
I'm sure it was bad for them.

00:34:54.82
Tony
yeah

00:34:55.54
Bill
i know it was bad for me because if things didn't go right, then, you know, I mean, I was crushed, you know? Um, but I've realized that I can have, I've had relationships with, with females that I truly do love, but I'm not in love.

00:35:11.91
Bill
It's not there. There's, there's a different level in it for whatever reason.

00:35:13.31
Tony
Yeah.

00:35:15.89
Bill
Um, I don't know why, um it doesn't feel right to spend the rest of my life with this individual person, but I will not, under any circumstance, I'm not going to settle anymore.

00:35:27.58
Bill
And I don't want anyone else to settle for me or that version of me. Because if I settle, you know what? That other person's ending up settling too. when they don't The problem is they don't fucking know it.

00:35:40.23
Tony
yeah

00:35:40.23
Bill
you know They don't know it yet, but they're going to find out that that I wasn't completely open and honest. I might hurt a feeling or two by telling somebody, you know what? i don't want to I don't want to get married. you know I'm happy doing what we're doing. If you don't want to, I'm not going to be offended by it.

00:35:55.14
Bill
We have a really good time together. We're having a good relationship together. um if If that's not enough, I understand it, but this is where I'm at. I understand where you're at, and we we walk away. The cool part is is that...

00:36:06.87
Bill
And I know it's every bit, you know, with this program, there isn't one person that I spent any amount of time with. Not that I'm i'm not, it's not tons of people I've spent time with over the years, but there's not one of them that I couldn't, if I ran across them on the street that I couldn't have a conversation with, you know, it all, they all left on good terms. Maybe there might be a couple of, it might be uncomfortable maybe to begin with, you know?

00:36:28.24
Bill
um But I don't think there's any of that I wouldn't be able to have ah a comfortable conversation with.

00:36:28.39
Tony
yeah

00:36:33.63
Bill
But so the, and like you were talking about, I mean, marriages and sobriety, you know, sobriety doesn't, and maybe correct me if I'm wrong, but it it doesn't guarantee you're going to have obviously happy relationships, right?

00:36:45.21
Bill
Yeah.

00:36:45.94
Tony
no absolutely not and and like you said that that you know just short travel between liking and and being obsessed i mean i i

00:36:48.57
Bill
yeah

00:36:58.32
Tony
found myself in in that pattern where, you know, it's just, it's just pure attachment. And it's, it's like, you know, it's like, I've, I've got to have that.

00:37:05.21
Bill
Right.

00:37:12.40
Bill
Oh, yeah.

00:37:12.71
Tony
I, I, I need that, know, do whatever it does for my ego, but, um, you know, it comes out of pure attachment and then, you know,

00:37:13.27
Bill
Yeah.

00:37:26.03
Tony
what once I found myself, once the chase was over and reality settled in then I was like, Oh, you're such a dumb fucker.

00:37:31.56
Bill
Right.

00:37:35.09
Tony
Uh, you know, and it just, and you know, it took me a long time to learn that. So it's just, I think we've got certain blind spots, uh, that just take longer for us to figure out than others.

00:37:53.46
Bill
Well, you know, the and the thing of it is, too, is that, I mean, and I'll just say a collective we, because hopefully you you agree with me, we don't know what what we don't know yet.

00:37:54.00
Tony
Uh,

00:38:01.40
Bill
And even though you've been you know you've been sober you know for over twice as long as as we have, um there's plenty of things that you don't know.

00:38:02.38
Tony
Yeah. Exactly.

00:38:09.26
Bill
There's certainly plenty of things that we don't know. So two things. I don't know what I don't know yet. That's number one. And I have no idea how I'm going to react to something that hasn't happened to me yet, which that may sound and that may sound elementary to, you know, your normal person out the middle of the world.

00:38:20.28
Tony
exactly

00:38:25.75
Bill
But um Mike and i and again, having this relationship that we've had, I can think of, you know, three things off the top of my head. There's probably five to 10 of them where something's just popped out on me.

00:38:37.17
Bill
And I'm like, where the, I mean, I don't, I didn't think this thing would bother me, but it does. But you know, the the thing with is, is I talk about it you know, I don't, I don't keep it inside anymore. I don't stew on these things.

00:38:48.81
Bill
And that's the cool part with, you know, getting back to what you said, when you, when you went out into the world on your own, but you stayed connected. So correct me if I'm wrong, you always had somebody to go to when you needed something, right?

00:39:00.75
Tony
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And that that's that's critical.

00:39:05.36
Bill
Right.

00:39:06.07
Tony
But kind of back to you know what you were talking about, you know not knowing what we don't know. The to the blog that I write is ah kind of bring the yeah ancient philosophy of of stoicism and kind of crossbreed that with with sobriety.

00:39:20.76
Bill
Right.

00:39:24.43
Tony
And one of the things that the ancient ancient Stoics did to kind of build resilience as as they go through exercises, you know, like yeah when they're putting their kid to bed at night and they're like, you know, this, this tomorrow isn't promised with my kid.

00:39:43.24
Tony
I might might, they might, they might pass, they might die.

00:39:43.48
Bill
right

00:39:47.21
Tony
um And they, they go to do these exercises with these, you know, things that you don't expect to happen in order to kind of build emotional resilience.

00:40:00.46
Bill
Right.

00:40:00.82
Tony
And that that's why, you know, people think a stoicism ah but is about stuffing your feelings, right? But really what what what they practiced was, you know, they prepared themselves for these events, right? And in in sobriety, you know, and may not go through those practices, but I was saying,

00:40:25.21
Tony
what's the worst thing that could happen to me? And if that does happen to me, what am I going to do? Well, my house burns down. Probably first thing I'm going to do is go to a meeting and just sit there, you know? And then the second thing is, you know, I'm going to call somebody.

00:40:42.45
Tony
So, you know, you there are exercises to kind of work through, okay, if this does happen, my first response isn't to go out and take a drink.

00:40:54.03
Bill
right

00:40:54.77
Tony
Um, so I, I find that I'm kind of a cerebral guy anyway. um

00:41:01.74
Bill
like

00:41:03.05
Tony
and probably deal more with rational than mystical. um so, so all that, that really, you know, i think is resonated and, and helped me a lot in sobriety. And one of the things, you know, that we go through,

00:41:22.05
Tony
life with all these fears about, you know, what if I lose my job? And what if I lose this? And what if I lose that? And, you know, Seneca was one of the richer guys in Rome.

00:41:35.55
Tony
And every once in a while, he'd take time and he would just put on peasant clothing and and go out and live in the streets for a couple days and, you know, just eat peasant fare.

00:41:46.42
Bill
Right.

00:41:48.60
Tony
And, you know, when he got back, he was like, you know what? I lost it all, wasn't that bad. And, you know, so they they kind of built up this resilience again against the fear as well to say, all right, well, if I'm afraid of this, let me just jump into it and and and see if it's really going to be as bad as I think it's going to be.

00:42:13.51
Tony
And typically it's not, right? I mean, you've heard it a thousand times.

00:42:16.70
Bill
Right.

00:42:19.77
Tony
We We suffer more in imagination than reality.

00:42:24.72
Bill
Well, you know, and so and Mike and I talk about that quite a bit. it's the It's the good and the bad. The good things that you build up in your head um will never live up to what you what you thought they would. and And I mean that. I'm not a never or always type of guy, but whatever you build up in your head, you're still going to have a great time, but it's not going to be what you built up in your head.

00:42:42.57
Bill
And the worst thing that you can think of and nine times out of 10 is not going to be, like you just said, not going to be that bad. um it it's it's crazy what we do. that It's torturous.

00:42:53.34
Bill
Right.

00:42:54.16
Tony
yeah. Yeah.

00:42:54.47
Bill
I mean, what we what we do to ourselves. And like you said, you know, obviously, yeah, the the worst that we that we suffer is is in our brains rather than in reality. Because the other thing, too, is that how how for whatever reason and once again, something we talk about a lot is that somehow, some way with these principles and these these steps and this program that we've been, you know, so freely given, um if we allow ourselves to get out of our own goddamn way.

00:43:22.95
Bill
You know, somehow, yes, we still can move forward.

00:43:23.30
Tony
yeah

00:43:24.91
Bill
We still got to do the work. We can't just sit by passively, but somehow this shit always works out. And usually, not always, but usually it's better than what we thought if we just let it fucking happen.

00:43:38.17
Tony
and it's ah it's It's just amazing how often that that actually happens.

00:43:45.74
Bill
It blows my mind.

00:43:46.18
Tony
And it's, yeah. And I think one of the things I've learned overt over time is is try during my thinking to segregate what is my ego you know, cause usually everything that's fucked up in my brain is my ego, right?

00:44:10.03
Bill
Right.

00:44:11.34
Tony
It's back there. It's back there saying, Hey, this guy wants your job or, Hey, you know, you're not going to look good if you do that. Or, you know, it's the egos planting these fears because if, if, you know, if you don't have the fears and and you,

00:44:29.83
Tony
you don't have all that, then then the ego doesn't exist. So it's, it's like in there fighting for its life, uh, and fucking with you the whole time.

00:44:33.27
Bill
Right.

00:44:39.76
Tony
Uh,

00:44:40.07
Bill
Oh yeah. Beating, beating the shit out of your brain all the time. This, this goddamn Eagle thing. And know I am, and I'm not joking when I, you know, I say it a little bit jokingly, but I'm not, I'm an egotist and I've got to really watch it that you want to talk about character defects, patience and egotism. Those are my two big ones.

00:44:54.02
Bill
Well, I should say, i mean I put it the other lack of patience, but, um, and, and my ego, those are the two things that will, um, like you just said, those two things are trying to kill me on a daily basis.

00:45:05.00
Bill
If I don't watch myself, you know? um but I do, I, I want to dive deeper into the whole stoicism thing.

00:45:07.41
Tony
Yeah. Perfect.

00:45:11.94
Bill
I mean, there's, there's a lot of reasons, obviously we wanted to have you on there, but that was one of the big ones because it's a topic I, know I know, know of, but I don't know a lot about, and I know Mike would have enjoyed it also, but,

00:45:24.15
Bill
um Why don't we take a break here and let's come back out of the break and talk a little bit more about your blog and your website and tell us a little bit more about stoicism. Okay.

00:45:32.67
Tony
perfect

00:45:33.63
Bill
All right. So everyone, again, this is Mike's thing. So bear with me now, a word from our sponsors.

00:45:51.23
Bill
All right, everyone. Welcome back. Okay, so um a couple of things. And I made a couple of notes here. And I want you to kind of run off in whatever direction you want. But I want to keep these. i want to get these out of my head before I forget about them. And I wrote them down, but I'll still forget.

00:46:05.82
Bill
So you you talked a little bit about... you know, um this individual might not be here tomorrow. We don't know what's going to be here tomorrow. So the whole um one day at a time thing, I want to talk about that just in a general sense at some point.

00:46:18.51
Bill
um And then when you talked about the ego and the job and the status and that sort of thing, I want to dig a little bit more into that also just to get your opinions on it. But is that part of, I guess, before I ask the questions, is that part of the the whole idea of the stoicism, trying to get that ego out out of the way? Or is that kind of what you you're going to lead into or no?

00:46:37.47
Tony
Yeah, I think, um you know, just, let I think that, again, there's a big misconception just around Stoicism that it's, you know, people that we have the, word we use the way we use the word Stoic in our language is not aligned with what Stoicism actually is. um you know, if you go if you go back, ah Stoicism,

00:47:07.51
Tony
is thought of as the art of living. So it's just a way to live a better life.

00:47:11.32
Bill
Okay.

00:47:14.56
Tony
And it's, it's just like the program, right? So we don't, we don't know how to, we don't know how to live our lives. So we need kind of a program to, you know, move us along the line and give us some guidelines and, and all of that stuff. So, ah you know, stoicism is the same way. So it's really,

00:47:36.00
Tony
just a bunch of practices, um you know, to get our ego out of the way, to get ourselves out of the way. um And and really the the crux of stoicism is is very simple. it's It's, you break the world down into what you can control and what you can't control.

00:47:59.54
Bill
Okay.

00:48:00.24
Tony
It's just like the serenity prayer, right? And and you focus on what you can control. um And that takes away, you know, a good portion of of most of our problems.

00:48:15.85
Bill
but right

00:48:16.16
Tony
um You know, I mean, i mean there's there's lots of great stuff in there that but I think helps on a daily basis. Like Marcus Aurelius, you know so he says, choose not to be harmed and you won't feel harmed.

00:48:31.36
Bill
Well,

00:48:31.78
Tony
don't Don't feel harmed and you haven't been. Right? So, you know, if you if you go into things with that mindset, you're not butthurt all the time when somebody, you know, yeah looks at you funny or or whatever else, ah you know, may happen.

00:48:49.38
Bill
is that like the same the same idea of, you know, people getting their feelings hurt all the time? Because I joke about it. I'm like, well, if I had any feelings right now, they'd probably be hurt.

00:48:56.80
Tony
Yeah.

00:48:56.72
Bill
You know, if somebody says something, I joke about it, but... um

00:48:59.81
Tony
That's the same thing.

00:49:01.00
Bill
Oh, same type of thing. So if we we have to choose to have our feelings hurt, is that the basics of it?

00:49:02.87
Tony
Yeah, it's.

00:49:06.57
Tony
yeah Yeah, exactly. i mean, you its it's the power of the pause, right? So some somebody says, hey, you're a shithead.

00:49:11.65
Bill
Right. Right.

00:49:14.59
Tony
And I pause and I'm like, you know what? I'm not a shithead. So whatever, you know, so a and and, you know, the the big, ah big, big portion of it is that, you know, external things are not the problem.

00:49:19.21
Bill
Right.

00:49:31.90
Bill
Right. Right.

00:49:32.67
Tony
It's how we look at them that is the problem.

00:49:35.78
Bill
right

00:49:36.32
Tony
Right. So, you know, we look at something as a threat that's not really a threat. um So we we control our perception of things.

00:49:48.41
Tony
Right. So you can take any situation and you can perceive it, you know, 15 different ways. Right. um So the focus of stoicism is to be rational.

00:50:01.20
Tony
And to say, okay I'm looking at this situation.

00:50:01.45
Bill
Right?

00:50:04.97
Tony
What are the facts of the situation? and I should probably react to the facts instead of, you know, maybe what my ego is saying. Yeah.

00:50:14.91
Bill
So so real real quick, and I want to play, well, maybe I do want to play devil's advocate for real quickly on that.

00:50:17.68
Tony
and you get yeah

00:50:20.49
Bill
So um you mentioned rational, you know, and what's rational, that sort of thing. So for your for your everyday alcoholic, um that's almost a joke. i mean, because we're not rational people, right?

00:50:29.53
Tony
ah Yes.

00:50:31.75
Bill
So does that go back? That's, is that where, but I mean, that goes back to, the challenge of um the the program or whatever program people are working, but let's even talk about AA or any other program.

00:50:43.87
Bill
But are you saying also a stoicism is saying that we need to be um rational people, which again, could be the challenge.

00:50:51.00
Tony
Yeah, but I think, you know, just just like going through the program, it's it's not... ah you know, you don't pop out of a cake rational, right?

00:51:01.13
Tony
So, you know, so stoicism, stoicism, you know, ancient philosophers would look at how we look at philosophy today and just laugh because, you know, it philosophy in its origins wasn't about mental masturbation.

00:51:03.19
Bill
Right. Right.

00:51:20.06
Tony
It's, it was about action.

00:51:20.58
Bill
Right.

00:51:22.73
Tony
and you know, there's a whole, whole, body of work on stoicism that just focuses on you know, this this is a a body of action that we take into our day every single day.

00:51:39.09
Tony
These are the the concepts that, you know, kind of guide our thinking and and everything else. So, you know, it's about practice. It's about building those muscles up. It's building that mental resilience up.

00:51:53.81
Tony
So, yeah, you may not be like you said, you know, we especially early in sobriety, we are not rational beings, but you, you know, you, you, you practice and you practice and you practice and you study.

00:52:02.86
Bill
Right. Right.

00:52:07.88
Tony
Um, and, and, and, you know, it just just starts to start, starts to stick. Um, and, and, uh, that's really the crux of it.

00:52:16.96
Bill
right

00:52:22.59
Tony
Kind of the, the big thing again is, is, What can I control and what can't I control? So I eliminate half of it, you know, right there, just whatever I can't control, know, fuck it.

00:52:36.43
Tony
I mean, you got to use some, you know, you got to use some sensibility there.

00:52:36.50
Bill
Right.

00:52:42.98
Tony
It's can also be the coward's way out, right? Like dog keeps shitting on the floor.

00:52:46.31
Bill
Right.

00:52:49.96
Tony
Nothing I can do about it. Well, there probably is.

00:52:51.15
Bill
Yeah.

00:52:53.53
Tony
ah Yeah.

00:52:53.51
Bill
You just live in a house full of shit.

00:52:54.50
Tony
Yeah.

00:52:57.21
Bill
If you just get a case of the buckets on that, right?

00:52:58.29
Tony
Yeah.

00:52:59.65
Bill
I get it. Okay.

00:53:00.89
Tony
Yeah. But it's just just little things that through throughout all the you know literature that just remind you.

00:53:12.52
Tony
you know it's i mean, like Seneca says, how does it help to make troubles heavier by bemoaning them? Right? So it's just a reminder.

00:53:22.87
Bill
Right. Right.

00:53:23.77
Tony
It's just like, you know, you're bitching about something, Is that really helping anything?

00:53:29.77
Bill
Right. No. Yeah.

00:53:30.41
Tony
um you know, and it's just like, and you know, Epictetus says, how long are you going to wait before you demand the best of yourself?

00:53:40.69
Bill
Right.

00:53:41.60
Tony
You know, it's just things like that that. You know, if you're, if you're, you know, reading and studying and it just, it just keeps life in context for me. Like,

00:53:52.36
Bill
Well, and the the other thing you were talking about was, you know, having some of this stuff that, like you said, you you don't pop out of a cake rational, which, I mean, that made me laugh, but I mean, it's it's it's true. You know, we don't, whatever we want to do, unless we're we' just ridiculously naturally gifted at something, ah which is rare. i mean, that's why there's only, you know, a certain number of, you know, really, really top of the mark pro athletes, for instance, you know, that are that are truly gifted. um But,

00:54:19.72
Bill
The one of the things that we were taught and actually we talk about on here all the time is and Mike always says act as if because we were taught that, you know, he said, if you if you want to be an honest person, do honest things.

00:54:27.37
Tony
Yep, yep. yep yep

00:54:30.45
Bill
If you don't want to be a thief, stop, stop stealing. You know, and sooner or later, I mean, you know, you you if you stop lying, then you become an honest person. You stop stealing, then you're no longer a thief.

00:54:40.97
Bill
um you know, you're kind to people, then you're, you're less of an asshole because I think we're all still assholes at time at times. But, you know, if you, if you practice, you know, thinking rationally, you become a rational thinker and I'm trying to, I'm going to try to to get I'm probably going to get this wrong, but I think I'll get it right.

00:54:59.26
Bill
Mike always talks about, he says, psychology is what they psychologists try to do is they try to get us to think, So we act differently, whereas Alcoholics Anonymous and Recovery gets us to act differently.

00:55:09.92
Tony
ah Yep. Yep.

00:55:12.81
Bill
So we end up thinking differently, you know, so it's it's opposite of of psychology.

00:55:15.10
Tony
yeahp

00:55:18.17
Bill
ah Psychology tries to change our mind to change our actions, whereas this thing says, OK, just act this way and your mind will follow, ah which is i mean, you know, some of these simplest things we were taught right away.

00:55:30.84
Bill
And that's kind of the again, if I'm if I'm catching I'm catching a lot of recovery from stoicism, I guess, is my main point. Right.

00:55:37.20
Tony
Yeah, I mean, it's it really goes hand in hand. I mean, because because it's just, like I said, is it's it it's it's been you know referred to as the art of living.

00:55:41.43
Bill
Right.

00:55:48.94
Tony
so

00:55:49.84
Bill
right

00:55:50.06
Tony
And there's there's four basic virtues. There's you know ah justice, courage, ah temperance, and um yeah why did I just brain fart on the last one?

00:56:06.92
Tony
ah wisdom is the other one. And, and you, yeah, yeah exactly.

00:56:09.46
Bill
but that's the greatest That's the greatest one to brain fart on too, isn't it?

00:56:14.04
Tony
and and, and you see two of those virtues in the serenity prayer, right?

00:56:18.42
Bill
Right, yeah.

00:56:19.18
Tony
Courage and wisdom.

00:56:20.66
Bill
Right.

00:56:21.20
Tony
um And, and like I said, I think, you know, the messages are, are very similar. ah What, what stoicism does for me is it,

00:56:34.43
Tony
it gives me those reminders that maybe I i wouldn't, ah you know, pick up in AA literature, you know, just, you know, like Cato was one of the early ones.

00:56:46.15
Tony
And he he says, i begin to speak only when I'm certain what I'll say isn't better left unsaid, you know, which is which is, you know,

00:56:55.03
Bill
yeah Right, right. right

00:56:59.55
Tony
We're right back to AA, right? The first thing you hear when you get in there is shut your fucking mouth and listen. Yeah, exactly.

00:57:05.75
Bill
Right. Yeah. And, you know, and first, first thought wrong in, in most cases and, you know, and, and it really is.

00:57:09.76
Tony
Yeah. exactly

00:57:12.01
Bill
So, and I'm going to have it in, but I mean, I, I'm just gonna, I want to drop this in the middle of our conversation. Then, uh, obviously I want to keep hearing about this and I'll, it'll be in the episode description, but is your, your blog, is it, um, is it better?

00:57:24.10
Bill
Cause I've been directing people to your, to your Instagram profile, which is, um, at a underscore stoic underscore sobriety. And that leads them into everything.

00:57:34.45
Bill
Um, what, ah what if somebody isn't on Instagram, what's your, what's your website?

00:57:35.17
Tony
Yeah. Yeah,

00:57:39.20
Tony
yeah it's just astoicsobriety.com.

00:57:42.36
Bill
Okay. So I'm going to write that down. I'm going to put that, that'll be, that'll be in the description. Also just a stoic sobriety.

00:57:50.25
Tony
Yep. And I've got, i i did kind of a series of articles just on educating on addiction.

00:58:02.69
Tony
So I've got a whole series of articles that are non-Stoic related.

00:58:02.76
Bill
Sure.

00:58:07.57
Tony
And then most of the stuff I do, ah it's a a topical, but I interweave the, you know, the Stoic thoughts and the Stoic, ah like for the ah sober curator, I've been doing a year long.

00:58:14.36
Bill
sure

00:58:24.96
Tony
I do one step a month and I integrate Stoicism into the steps.

00:58:30.93
Bill
right

00:58:31.78
Tony
And just, you know, again, I don't, you know, AA is my anchor, you know, that that's how I stay sober.

00:58:39.81
Bill
Right.

00:58:42.56
Tony
um but But stoicism just gives me another avenue but study and learn and, ah you know, just kind of bolster my sobriety.

00:58:55.48
Bill
Right. Well, when, when we started doing, doing this and actually the, uh, well, I guess the short stories we started doing the podcast, it was just, it was filling a void type of thing. um, and then we didn't really know what direction it was going to go.

00:59:10.46
Bill
You know, and then Mike, in his in his telling his story, he talked a lot about AA and Alcoholics Anonymous and that sort of thing. And that was episode three, our first real full episode, because mine was kind of short. We did this kind of funny behind the scenes type of thing. And then his episode.

00:59:26.13
Bill
And um I told him, I'm like, you know, after he told the story, I'm like, I'm glad you brought that up because it sounded good and it sounded natural. And we make it clear we don't have disclosures at the beginning of our podcast, because if somebody can't figure out that we're not in a sanction group, um then that's their fucking problem.

00:59:43.30
Bill
Um, we don't, we don't do, um, you know, trigger alerts or anything like that. Somebody is listening and something triggers you. First of all, we don't believe in triggers, but that's a whole nother story, but then go listen to something else. It's fine.

00:59:55.32
Tony
Right, yeah.

00:59:55.55
Bill
But, but the other thing too, is that we found, and we talk about it on here all the time is that we've learned about other areas of recovery, which I'll be honest with you. I knew nothing about Mike and I knew nothing about all these other areas of people that are staying sober, got sober, stay and live wonderful lives. So, you know, ah we've adopted this whole mindset and Mike says it all the time.

01:00:17.76
Bill
I don't care what you do as long as you're out there making yourself a better person and not hurting anyone along the way, you know, is his is his mindset.

01:00:24.01
Tony
Amen.

01:00:24.97
Bill
And it's great. But the other thing too is that, you know, when, when we talk about it sometimes, because we've had guests on before that are non AA people, but then they'll tell us their story.

01:00:35.90
Bill
And half the time Mike and I are kind of giggling through the story. And then at the end we're like, you know, Hey Mike, did that sound familiar? like, Oh yeah. He goes, he goes, you just, you know, the individual that's told the story of it, that was the 12 steps and the person's like, what are talking about?

01:00:48.29
Bill
And then we'll, we'll tell them how their story related to the steps without being the steps because, know,

01:00:53.29
Tony
ah Right, right.

01:00:54.90
Bill
the The steps, our sisters said it before, a lot of normies, our sisters are normie. um And a lot of other people, they're like, my God, the these steps and some of the conversations that we have about them, um they're kind of like life lessons. Not that we're the greatest thing on on earth because we talk about it.

01:01:10.68
Bill
All we're doing is spitting out all the things we've learned over the years, you know. But the the recovery thing specific to AA, if you took... if you took the the numbers off of those words in the 12 steps and took anything because it's only the word alcohol in the first step, you know, and then just let your mind say this has nothing to do with alcohol.

01:01:22.77
Tony
Uh-huh. Yeah.

01:01:30.49
Bill
You could live by those what we would could call principles, right? you know and it's And that's kind of what, again, leading back to the Stoicism thing, having them intertwined like that, I don't want to say it's easy, but it seems like it would be very comfortable merging these two things, just from what you're telling me with Stoicism, merging the recovery side and the Stoicism side and wrapping them up together, right?

01:01:35.27
Tony
yeah

01:01:56.05
Tony
Yeah, because, I mean, they they they just go hand in hand. And like you said, I've always said that all of humanity could benefit from working steps four through 12.

01:01:58.98
Bill
Right.

01:02:06.63
Bill
right

01:02:07.18
Tony
it

01:02:07.43
Bill
Right.

01:02:08.26
Tony
You know, it just, I mean, and it's, I mean, that's, it just, the whole program kind grew of, know, values you know, nineteen thirty s nineteen twenty s values and and you know just doing the right thing.

01:02:27.25
Tony
And, and, uh, I, that yeah, I don't, I, I think if if you, if you put a clever, uh, marketing thing around them, you could sell steps four through 12 as, as whole way of life.

01:02:28.39
Bill
right

01:02:44.64
Bill
Oh God, easily, easily, you know, and the and thing too, you know, just, just being out there and just being, and being a better person, doing, doing the the next right thing and and all the, how simple it is.

01:02:46.02
Tony
Yeah.

01:02:56.12
Bill
And i've I've said jokingly, you know, every, every once in a while, you know, it's like, yeah i don't know, I've got, I've got a grandson now that's through almost four.

01:02:57.04
Tony
Thank you.

01:03:03.43
Bill
Well, he's going be four years old in March. So three and a half years old. Um, another grandson on the way that's, uh, he's, my daughters do with him and March. I'll have two grandkids. I've got relationships with my exes. I've got, you know, good relationships with my kids and their significant others. And this whole, this whole thing, my life is far from fucking perfect, but all these things have come back to me in this timeframe.

01:03:25.56
Bill
And I jokingly say, i'm like, okay, so really all I had to do, I did, I did go to some meetings and read a book and follow some suggestions, um you know, and basically just be a good human being.

01:03:32.12
Tony
Yeah.

01:03:35.76
Bill
Really? That's, that's all I have to do. ah literally all I have to do in order to have whatever life I want. Now we, we kind of joke about the fact that, you know, with the, I mean, it's a life of my wildest dreams.

01:03:50.14
Bill
I've got bigger dreams than what I'm living right now, but that's fine. I'm not complaining about what I have now. But I have not i've not lived my wildest dreams yet. But if I stay sober, I can do anything that I want within reason.

01:04:04.43
Tony
At least you got a shot at it.

01:04:04.36
Bill
um Exactly. you know and And I could sit you know these these barstool dreams that I had remember being 18 years old mapping this thing what wanted when was 30 years i remember being eighteen years old and mapping out this thing and what i wanted when i was thirty years old And I don't remember how I got even on the topic of of doing it. i don't even know if I've ever talked about this on here, but um I think we were talking, Mike and i were talking about birthdays once and my 30th birthday hit me really hard because of this that I'm about to talk about when I was like 18 years old. i'm like, okay.

01:04:35.71
Bill
This is what I'm going to do. And I'm going to have this. I'm going to, I was going to have like a, not even a certain type of car, but you know, a, this, this cool car, I'm going to be married.

01:04:43.20
Tony
ah Right. Right.

01:04:44.61
Bill
I'm going to have, you know, maybe a kid or two. I'm going to own a home. I'm going to job in my mindset. I was going to be whatever the term meant financially comfortable and set my life, which that in itself um was a mistake because whoever, know, ah you you're, even if you're a billionaire out there, are you yet comfortable or set in your life?

01:05:06.41
Tony
right

01:05:06.51
Bill
Probably not. There's a way that these, these individuals became who they are because probably maybe some of them are dicks and some of them did horrible things to get the money they have, but most people are continuing to work for more in their lives. But,

01:05:20.17
Bill
So by the time I got to 30, I had been married. I was now divorced. um I had a child, but, you know, going through this custody battle, um I had not yet met my second wife at that point.

01:05:33.11
Bill
um Decent enough job, but still growing in that, living in an apartment, not in a house. And I'm looking at all these different things. And um it hit me like two weeks after my 30th birthday.

01:05:44.24
Bill
And I get into this, this funk and I couldn't figure it out. And I finally did. That's what it was. These expectations I had built in the back of my head, which I don't do anymore. I make plans, um but I make realistic plans, you know?

01:05:56.20
Tony
Yep.

01:05:59.27
Bill
And like you said, in it i want to hear a little bit more about when you were talking about what the stoicism is looking at the, um what's kind of the worst that can happen type of thing, because kind of that way, so i want to hear about that.

01:06:07.80
Tony
Uh-huh.

01:06:09.21
Bill
But I try to make plans and I try not to, um what do they say, expectations or resentments waiting to happen?

01:06:16.07
Tony
Yep, waiting to happen.

01:06:17.86
Bill
and And I do. i there's certain, and it's hard not to, the word expectation or expectations is so commonly used, but we can still, if we're doing it well and doing it in a healthy way, we can make plans and set realistic expectations, but we've got to be even be careful with that. Right.

01:06:35.16
Tony
Yep. Yeah.

01:06:36.15
Bill
So,

01:06:36.31
Tony
And I mean, just kind of back to what you were saying, I mean, Epictetus says, you know, wealth consists not in having great possessions, but in having few wants.

01:06:37.15
Bill
Yeah.

01:06:50.79
Bill
Right. Yes. Yeah.

01:06:52.19
Tony
Right. So, you know, it's it's ah we can chase great possessions. We can chase money. we can chase everything. but we don't need all that shit. Right.

01:07:02.39
Tony
So it's like, well, you know, what are the few wants that, I mean, food, shelter, clothing, you know, family, you know, that's, that's enough.

01:07:02.36
Bill
Right. Right.

01:07:15.55
Tony
Um, you know, it's always good to yeah have goals and strive for things, but when it consumes you, ah and you start, like you said, setting expectations and,

01:07:29.35
Tony
then if you're unable to meet those expectations, cause you've been so grandiose about them that, you know, you just, you just send yourself into a tailspin.

01:07:39.19
Bill
Right.

01:07:40.17
Tony
But, uh, I don't want to, I don't want to quote you to death, but, you know, a few of my other quotes that, again, just, just interweave with the program and interweave with, with having the right mindset, uh, you know, and these are all Epictetus cause he's my favorite, but

01:07:50.01
Bill
Mm-hmm.

01:08:00.67
Tony
You know, he says, it's not what happens to you, but how you react to it that matters.

01:08:07.43
Bill
Right. Yeah.

01:08:08.68
Tony
Right.

01:08:08.65
Bill
Well, exactly.

01:08:09.00
Tony
So, so it's all, it's that power of the pause, right? It's that.

01:08:14.70
Tony
And then, you know, he says, I cannot, I cannot escape death, but at least I can escape the fear of it.

01:08:22.81
Bill
Right. You know, and here's a, here's a funny part. So we've talked about both of those things, the death part. I'll come back to you in a second, but as far as what was the other, the first one you said, the first quote, repeat that one.

01:08:34.23
Tony
ah The one about wants.

01:08:35.95
Bill
Yes.

01:08:36.93
Tony
Yeah, wealth consists not in having great possessions, but in having few wants.

01:08:43.43
Bill
Right. You know, so, so we have talked about that in the sense that, um, I mean, boy, there, there was a long time that, you know, I, there was a lot of things I wanted to be in the, in the corporate structure of the world, you know, and, and and I strove for that. Then I had management positions. I, I was never like, uh, you know I, don't know. I, I made decent money. I was never necessarily whatever I thought would be the top of my game or whatever that is. But, you know, there came a point where, um right now, ah I live a really simplistic life. I, the, the job that I have right now is not necessarily a job that fulfills me.

01:09:20.80
Bill
Um, I work for a law firm, you know, sounds prestigious, but it's not, um, I'm basically a bill collector. I collect from, um the insurance premiums from businesses. So it's a little bit on the professional side of things, but I'm still, I mean, call it what you will, the dude that picks up your garbage at the end of the driveway every week is a fucking garbage man, you know?

01:09:39.33
Bill
And he makes a lot of money.

01:09:39.55
Tony
Yep.

01:09:40.57
Bill
And if he's happy with what he's doing, good for him. You know, I don't care if he's if he's unhappy and wants to call himself something else. Doesn't matter what the what the name of what he's doing is. Is he happy picking up your garbage? You know, and I work in this job affords me um that I can make a decent amount of money.

01:09:59.70
Bill
You know, things are slow here and there. You know, so I got to deal with that. But it it's also it's fully remote with no residentsids residency restrictions. So that allows me to go wherever the fuck I want.

01:10:10.53
Tony
Yeah. Yeah.

01:10:10.85
Bill
You know, as long as I have a good Internet connection and all that, there are certain guidelines that I have to live by, um which I make sure and I live in Airbnbs and that sort of thing to do it. But um that's what this job gives me.

01:10:23.03
Bill
And I don't, I don't care about a title. I don't care about anything anymore. um And there's very few things that I want. What I want these days is experiences.

01:10:33.05
Bill
I don't, I don't want to go out and um like my daughter asked me, for instance, you know, again, she's got a small, you know, a small son and she's going to have another one.

01:10:33.42
Tony
yeah

01:10:40.91
Bill
You know, I'm probably within, within probably three to five years, going want to go to Disney world. She's like, would you want to go with us? And I said, honestly, I said, if you begged me to, um or if you, if you guilted me into it, I probably would.

01:10:53.34
Bill
But I'm like, I don't, I cannot just, I told her, I said, I don't know that I could justify spending that kind of money for the return.

01:10:54.09
Tony
and

01:11:01.34
Bill
Now for the kids, I get it.

01:11:02.07
Tony
Right.

01:11:03.66
Bill
For me, it's pointless, you know?

01:11:05.46
Tony
Right.

01:11:06.31
Bill
So, but I mean, to, to be a part of, if just to to live vicariously through what these kids are going to experience through Disney, maybe I can help pay for their trip.

01:11:16.66
Bill
You know, um, and what, whatever it is, like when my grandson was born, whatever the, the baby shower shit, you know, that all, that whole thing.

01:11:17.71
Tony
Yep.

01:11:25.37
Bill
I asked my daughter and my son-in-law, i said, you tell me what to get. I said, I'm not going to pick out a gift. I'm not going think whatever. Cause I said two things. I don't want to try to to buy something to one-up anyone else. Like, oh, look at what I bought, you know?

01:11:39.23
Bill
um And I don't, I want to buy something that you guys want, need, and what you will use. So I said, you tell me what you want, you know? And they wanted me to buy his crib, which I was touched, completely.

01:11:52.48
Tony
Right.

01:11:52.75
Bill
Because I'm like, that's his that's that's his life, you know?

01:11:54.13
Tony
Right.

01:11:57.33
Bill
And i told I told her, she's like, it's kind of expensive. It was $200, $300. She's like, it's kind of expensive. But I'm like, I'm not worried about that. I said, are you sure you want me to buy that? What about your mom? What about this? what She's like, no, no, no, that's cool, you know?

01:12:10.24
Bill
And I'm like, okay. I said, I'm, cause I'm honored, you know, cause he could not just have it for his crib.

01:12:13.25
Tony
right

01:12:15.41
Bill
It's now the the sides off and it's his, it's his little bed and it's going to now probably end up being the new baby's bed. Um, to me it was a big fucking deal, you know? But I wouldn't have, I didn't do it for that.

01:12:26.42
Tony
Yep.

01:12:28.59
Bill
I was 100% honored that they wanted me to do that for them. So that's, those are the things that make me happy. The money just didn't, that didn't mean a thing, you know?

01:12:37.75
Tony
Yeah, that that's awesome.

01:12:38.26
Bill
um Yeah, you know, so it's the it's a little things like that, but God, what a great way to put that. It's just the, you know, the the wants that we have, but but also are they, Are they genuine? And I want experiences and I want things that i can I can do for others, which is weird. I do stuff for myself. I'm still selfish and self-centered. We all are, you know, a little bit.

01:12:59.05
Bill
But I want to do things with my kids. I want to do stuff that that matters to other people these days. You know, it's just it's so much makes me happier.

01:13:06.62
Tony
Yeah. And I think, you know, I'm, I'm the same way as far as, you know, yeah goals to ah climb the corporate ladder and, and, and all that stuff. And, and I've, I've been, know, professionally successful. I, I had my first, you know, C-level job at, 35 and,

01:13:30.22
Tony
you know, I'm an SVP at a, at a company now and, and it doesn't change your life. I mean, it you know, get, it's, it's goes back to the whole, know, wherever you, wherever you go, there you are.

01:13:36.64
Bill
Right.

01:13:46.04
Tony
Right.

01:13:46.15
Bill
right

01:13:46.36
Tony
So it doesn't, you know it doesn't, doesn't matter if, if, you know, you're digging ditches or, you know, you're, you're a professional athlete.

01:13:58.76
Tony
you're still there and you're gonna be as happy and as content as as you allow yourself to be in that place. All

01:14:07.73
Bill
Right. Yeah. And I mean, with with my background and experience of the things that I've done in the industry and and I've been in and around the collection business or debt collection business for years, um I could I know for a fact, but I first of all, I probably have to move. I probably have to relocate to a different part of the country.

01:14:23.81
Bill
um and be stationary someplace. That's the other thing.

01:14:27.19
Tony
ah right.

01:14:27.59
Bill
But I could probably go out, in and I'm not joking, within, it might take you know three to six months to find the right fit, but I could find a some sort of supervisory or management position doing either training or on a floor or something like that, probably making twice the money that I'm making right now.

01:14:33.51
Tony
Right.

01:14:43.15
Bill
um And that's without a question. that And that's not just, that's not egotist part of the thing. It's just a fact based on my background and and you know the the experience that I have.

01:14:48.60
Tony
right

01:14:52.40
Bill
But here's the deal. I just turned 57 years old and I've had a year and a half of doing this other thing of being able to travel around and have some freedom. And I don't want to fucking do that anymore.

01:15:03.87
Tony
Oh yeah, you can't put a price on that.

01:15:04.53
Bill
I don't want to. No, I can't. I'm not. I don't want to. um you You know, I the the way I'm sitting, I'm sitting in shorts and a T-shirt right now. And that's the way I work most days. I mean, I never have to dress up.

01:15:15.62
Bill
you know, I don't have to go into the office. every Everyone in the office works remote. um It's not the most glamorous job. It's a it's literally a punching o'clock, half hour lunch during the week. But I get done at three o'clock on a Friday.

01:15:26.75
Bill
But the key is I get to go do what I want to do. You know, and there's other, my sister and I, and the Mike knows about it, but it'll come up over the next few months.

01:15:29.49
Tony
Yeah.

01:15:34.05
Bill
There's another plan that we're we're kind of hatching at at the moment. But for now, this is my thing. um And I don't want...

01:15:40.14
Tony
Yeah, but two ah you've got the strategy, right? Right. So, you know, lot of people in your situation would say, hey, um I'll go take the job making twice as much money and do that for 10 years and then I'll go do the shit I want to do now.

01:15:56.89
Bill
Right.

01:15:56.99
Tony
And, you know, never make it sometimes.

01:16:00.94
Bill
Right.

01:16:01.44
Tony
So, you know, it's In my mind, you've you've got the strategy right. It's, it's you know, I'll take i'll take less pay and be able to have the freedom versus more pay for freedom later.

01:16:19.78
Bill
Right. Well, and I yeah and I ended up writing a ah book about it. It's called it. I've talked about it on here. I'm not completely trying to whore this out, but I post on Instagram all the time. I just I titled it the modern day hobo.

01:16:31.62
Bill
And i I wrote about what I do, Airbnb and how I ended up doing it in the short version is I just had the thought that I didn't need to be in one place. My kids are grown up and this and that.

01:16:41.53
Tony
Right.

01:16:42.22
Bill
And I figured out um I did a lot of research, a lot of fucking research. I can't afford to do it full time based on the money I make. um And I have freedoms of not having rent to come back to and being, you know, I don't have my own place that I have to pay rent on all the time.

01:16:56.48
Bill
I've got a ah sibling that is, you know, kind enough to allow me to stay here. Um, you know, so that's cool. Um, you know, but mean, she doesn't, she doesn't like buy my groceries and everything like that. I, I buy all my groceries and, you know, I've i've got a roof over my head and she provides that and I love her for it.

01:17:12.75
Bill
Um, more and more than just that, Kathy, that's her name. She listens to this, but, um, but you know what? I mean, the, having that opportunity, I couldn't do this without that, but I thought about that too. This, the, the whole retirement thing is a fucking scam in this country, in my opinion.

01:17:26.69
Tony
Oh yeah.

01:17:26.62
Bill
Um, because so many people work so hard, And, um I mean, even though our life expectancy is is a lot longer than it used to be, you know, I look at um our stepdad died at 80. Our mom died at, you know one week shy of her 79th birthday.

01:17:43.10
Bill
And she had some health issues, which severely, um it hindered her for probably at least five to seven years prior to that.

01:17:48.62
Tony
Right. Right.

01:17:50.97
Bill
Yeah. you know So she didn't get to do all the things that she wanted. um i know I know some people that have been able to retire and they're you know they're out doing things. But then do I want to be 75 years old um trying to go on a hiking trip? I mean, I hope I can still do it.

01:18:08.40
Bill
But um I'm a little sore at 57, you know, hiking some of these things. And I know my limitations, you know, but um yeah, I mean, to be able to have, I get to, and I thought about it when I did this recap, um because I started in April of 24 is when I kind of started doing this, um you know, just kind of headed out and started doing it, you know, kind of that was the start of it.

01:18:30.72
Bill
And a year later, i had stayed in like I had like 33 trips, like 33 weeks out of the 52 I traveled. Some of them were with Mike and family and whatever. But um I did kind of a recap of all because I take pictures. and I post all this shit.

01:18:47.04
Bill
And I did a recap of it, kind of did this collage. And I looked, I'm like, I'm like, Jesus Christ. And then looking back at these memories on Facebook and whatever, um i just, it, it pulls me back when I wrote the book, when I write about it on the website that I have, it pulls me back into, you know, that, that experience. I have those memories that are, that are worth everything to me, you know?

01:19:10.80
Bill
and And on top of that, too, you know, I get I get to share that with with other people for free.

01:19:11.26
Tony
Yeah.

01:19:15.95
Bill
You know, it's pretty fucking great.

01:19:17.81
Tony
Yeah. And, you know, unbeknownst to yourself, you' you're practicing some stoicism because Marcus Aurelius says very little is needed to make a happy life.

01:19:31.26
Tony
It is all within yourself, in your way of thinking.

01:19:31.34
Bill
Right.

01:19:35.51
Bill
Right. Yeah. And you know what? The funny part is I talk about in Mike, ah Mike humors me when it comes to some of the stuff. I'm not saying he doesn't think that some of the pictures I, I take are cool, but you wouldn't get him. You, he wouldn't be caught dead on a fucking hiking trail. He does no, no desire to, but I walk into like North Carolina was one of the first wow moments I had.

01:19:54.89
Bill
I walked up onto this, you know, you walk up this, well, first of all, driving up this mountain, these all, you know, like this S curve type of switchback road, gravel, dirt and whatever, getting up there. And then you walk about um half a mile and then another half a mile. And then you get to this clearing. And literally, I walked into this clearing and I'm looking out over this this vastness of these mountains in North Carolina.

01:20:17.17
Bill
And i the two words that came out of my mouth immediately were, fuck me.

01:20:22.32
Tony
Yeah, it's just so overwhelming.

01:20:22.80
Bill
Because I'm just, I stood there and I'm like, but what the fuck, you know? Oh, it was just, i was beside myself, you know? So West Virginia. So I went down to, cause I do want to talk. I want to talk about that too.

01:20:36.28
Bill
Cause I, I love your state. So how far are you from the new river, new river gorge?

01:20:41.38
Tony
ah Two hours, we're going tomorrow.

01:20:44.37
Bill
Are you really?

01:20:44.78
Tony
it

01:20:45.01
Bill
Okay.

01:20:45.37
Tony
Tomorrow is bridge day.

01:20:46.70
Bill
The bridge day. Yeah. You know what? I, I was down. Okay. So I was down there a year ago tomorrow and I got down there. Um, the, actually the, I went in on a, yeah, went in on a Saturday, which was, that was bridge day a year ago on Saturday.

01:21:00.26
Bill
So I didn't, I was in Charleston, so I was nowhere near it. Um, but I knew about it. i'm like, God, that'd be kind of cool. But then I'm like, man, I don't think I want to deal with the traffic and whatever, but

01:21:08.67
Tony
You're right.

01:21:09.47
Bill
It would have been, it would have been cool, but that's why I went down there. So I stayed in Charleston, which is an hour and a half away. um I was there for two weeks and I went down there the two weekends, the two full weekends I was there.

01:21:20.95
Bill
i think I went the first Sunday I drove. I think I was down there five times. I forget now, but I was that out of all time. I've been the new river Gorge, Tallulah Gorge. Um, that was in Kentucky.

01:21:33.27
Bill
I can't remember. I've been to a number of them now three or four of these gorge areas. um The New River Gorge is my was my favorites. The first one I went to, but it was my favorite.

01:21:41.40
Tony
It's crazy.

01:21:43.31
Bill
And the what it was at the um the Long Point Trail, I think is what it's called, where you can walk out and that's where you can see the bridge from the distance.

01:21:51.11
Tony
Yep, yep.

01:21:51.82
Bill
So the first, the first thing I did, I went to the visitor center and I walked down where you got to get close up and see the bridge. That was really fucking cool. Cause you can get a really good view of the, of the gorge itself. And again, I was here and here there at this time of year. So the leaves were starting the change.

01:22:07.44
Bill
I went there to try to get peak and I missed it, I think by a week or so.

01:22:11.55
Tony
Yeah.

01:22:11.47
Bill
Um, but when I went on that long point trail and then a few other ones, I went down into this, um, there's this mining trail where he's got this big conveyor belt that goes down into the gorge. I went on that trail and I mean, that thing you're looking at be like, holy fuck. Cause I mean, there was this whole little abandoned mining town in there.

01:22:30.52
Bill
My point is that, first of all, West Virginia, I went to Myrtle Beach a year, ah two years ago in January, and I drove through West Virginia at night on the way down there and then during the day on the way back. And that's when I decided, I'm like, I'm fucking coming back here.

01:22:44.23
Bill
And I think I drove through that, the highway that goes by Charleston.

01:22:44.70
Tony
it's Yeah, i so I've been here five years, and I live in Morgantown, which is where WVU is.

01:22:48.08
Bill
So it's a beautiful drive, but I just blown away at how beautiful it is. So how long have you lived there?

01:22:58.66
Bill
Okay.

01:23:04.18
Bill
Okay.

01:23:04.42
Tony
um So about an hour and a half south of Pittsburgh.

01:23:08.05
Bill
Oh, sure. Okay.

01:23:09.01
Tony
um But yeah it's just gorgeous. I live on top of a mountain. and in the summertime the when the leaves are all up i can't see any of my neighbors and i look out my front porch and it's just mountains and ah yeah they've got the most amazing state parks uh cooper's rock and black waterfalls and all the all the uh state parks are free here

01:23:36.52
Bill
right

01:23:36.92
Tony
um And then, yeah, the New River Gorge, it's great that they have that bridge day this time of year because you do get the, you know, the leaves changing, which is you know just absolutely gorgeous.

01:23:50.17
Tony
But for anybody.

01:23:51.33
Bill
Well, so for for people, yeah, that don't know what that is, explain what Bridge Day is.

01:23:55.25
Tony
Yeah, so bridge day, they pretty much ah block off the bridge. So New River Gorge might be the highest uh suspension bridge in america i'm not sure about that but it's uh 900 feet from the bridge to the water uh to the river underneath so they shut off the bridge and then on both ends there's usually know about a half mile of vendors there's food and uh just different crafts and like what you'd see at any festival but um

01:24:13.35
Bill
Right.

01:24:28.42
Bill
right

01:24:30.12
Tony
But during the day, what they do is people base jump off the bridge. um And they actually have a catapult. So imagine sitting down in a in an office chair and being cranked back, and then they just launch you over the bridge.

01:24:51.71
Tony
so So it's fine. I mean, they've got people that repel too, but you can't really see them because they're under the bridge.

01:24:59.02
Bill
right

01:24:59.50
Tony
but But it's just fun to see, you know, all these people base jumping and, you know, they do tricks. And and it's just a lot of fun.

01:25:10.19
Tony
and And I think what, you know, really make is a real draw for it is that it happens in the fall. And it's just absolutely gorgeous down through there i

01:25:19.00
Bill
right

01:25:23.65
Tony
I just love it. I love everything about West Virginia except the roads.

01:25:29.81
Bill
right

01:25:30.30
Tony
um It's just it' just beautiful. Yeah.

01:25:36.70
Bill
yeah i mean i had i know for a fact i'd been i know i've been through west virginia i think the part um obviously towards ohio we were we went to a wedding there years ago with uh our dad i got a good friend they got married right across the river you know from from ohio but i mean i had never experienced same thing going back to his experiences i had never experienced west virginia

01:25:47.37
Tony
yeah

01:25:59.82
Bill
And same thing, man. I was just like blown away. The Airbnb I stayed in was a little bit, um it wasn't terrible, but the the guy could have done some things with it. I left, um I talked to him and I gave him some suggestions because I didn't complain. I never give bad reviews, but that's a whole and nother story.

01:26:17.79
Bill
But I did. I gave him some suggestions on it. cause so I'm like, you know, some of the shit I'm like, um, other people, why I can't, I can't believe that other people don't complain about this because if I weren't me, I would have complained about some things, but it was there. I was, it was convenient. I mean, yeah, i drove back and forth.

01:26:32.80
Bill
Um, but I mean, it was worth every mile and every hour, that I drove because, it was spectacular, just spectacular.

01:26:36.65
Tony
Yeah, it's yeah it's not a rich state, so you don't you don't come here to you know do the New York things or do Las Vegas things.

01:26:47.44
Bill
yeah Right.

01:26:50.24
Tony
You come here to experience be of nature. um

01:26:54.56
Bill
Well, and I was, I was going to go back again. Cause I was, uh, you know, I don't know, a couple of months ago, I'm thinking, I'm like, I want to do a fall trip again. i was thinking about going down, you know, kind of like a little bit, not Southwest, but kind of going down into that area, maybe experiencing something different in fall.

01:27:09.93
Bill
Cause you can still get some cool colors and shit like that.

01:27:12.25
Tony
Yeah. Yeah.

01:27:12.34
Bill
And then some of the Southern towards, you know, South, a little bit West, not desert area. Cause I was out there um last winter, but then I'm like, uh, you know, maybe I should go back to the new river gorge because there's a, I was kind of only in like the middle section.

01:27:25.59
Bill
There's, it's so huge. I mean, there's all these different trails obviously.

01:27:29.22
Tony
yeah

01:27:30.03
Bill
And then, uh, I started looking at, at pricing and stuff like that and to get right into, um, and I can't remember the name of the town that, uh, what's the name of the town that where it is new river gorge.

01:27:41.66
Tony
Yeah, i have a I'm brain farting on that one.

01:27:43.45
Bill
Yeah, if I can't, I can't remember it. But the town that's right there, i mean, clearly it's expensive, you know, to stay right there. So in order for to make it affordable, because I wanted to be there two weeks, that's why I stayed that far away.

01:27:54.69
Bill
And then um Lake of the Ozarks, I went there kind of by, i kind of on a whim a couple years ago. And it's that this place that I'm staying through the next three weeks. It's a a host I've stayed with now twice.

01:28:08.39
Bill
It's a condo, a very nice, comfortable condo unit, small place, but she is fucking wonderful. um And they're, they're nice. They're, they're good to deal with. It's a, it's a clean condo. got everything that I need.

01:28:20.42
Bill
um And, you know, when I when I walked in there, like the second time, I was just like, you know, my Wi-Fi connects. Everything's good. um So it's like kind of like going home, you know, but um I've been to all the parks and stuff around there. But I've been there in April and I was there in early October last year because I was in Lake of the Ozarks that I went down to Arkansas and then out to West Virginia. That was my fall trip last year.

01:28:43.69
Bill
Um, you know, but in the Ozarks, I was there, I was there way too early. It was like this time, this first, second week of October, I was in Lake the Ozarks last year. So I'm going to be there from, you know, tomorrow. So the 18th through November 8th, I should be able to, you know, obviously hit good leaves.

01:29:00.05
Bill
Um, and I love it around there. If you've ever been in the area, you know, like some mountains, but I mean, it's bluffs, it's beautiful, nice roadways.

01:29:02.29
Tony
Yeah.

01:29:07.43
Bill
But like you said, getting back to um the the mountains in West Virginia, North Carolina, Northern Georgia, Tennessee area, um just you you could go to the fucking grocery store and be, just have your mind blown by what you're looking at.

01:29:23.85
Bill
And the same thing with,

01:29:23.98
Tony
It's just so so powerful.

01:29:25.94
Bill
Yeah, it's the same thing with the Ozarks, just a little bit different. um But I mean, I can I I'm staying there. I'm staying in the Ozarks for three weeks for um about a thousand bucks for three weeks, you know, and it's which is nothing compared to she gave me the last week for like two hundred and fifty dollars, ah which is unheard of, you know, but because I was good.

01:29:37.32
Tony
Yeah. Yeah.

01:29:44.48
Bill
at I booked it for two and then i'm like, what if and. You know, so she worked it into it. I've got a travel account that I use, so I'm not but laying down a thousand dollars or anything like that. I try to make that clear because I'm not trying to be this one up type of guy.

01:29:56.79
Bill
I don't seriously. I don't have like oodles of money. I just got ways to pay for it if I could do what I could do, you know.

01:30:02.04
Tony
yeah

01:30:03.10
Bill
um But but it's affordable.

01:30:03.34
Tony
yeah

01:30:05.58
Bill
And, you know, I'm hopefully going to see some again, some nice colors and stuff like that. But shit i I really want to get back to to West Virginia. I love it down there. It's it's great.

01:30:14.96
Tony
Yeah, you give me the choice between going to the Louvre ah Art Museum and going to the Gorge. I'm picking the Gorge every time.

01:30:23.07
Bill
Right. Yeah. And no no doubt. You know what? and And it's amazing. I've done and I've said this before. I think I've said it on here. I've done I've done more traveling and seen more things in the last year and a half.

01:30:35.78
Bill
than And this is no joke than I've seen in my entire life, you know, at 57 years old

01:30:39.20
Tony
That's awesome.

01:30:41.10
Bill
And um just some of these things. And I don't necessarily spend a lot of time in a lot of places, but there's certain times where I just I'm someplace and I just I just sit down for a minute and I just look and I listen. And it's almost ah hiking to me is like ah and I've said it before. It's kind of meditative for me.

01:30:57.02
Tony
Oh yeah. Sure.

01:30:57.41
Bill
Um, don't listen to music. Don't put head earbuds in head headphones on anything like that. Um, I don't do anything like that while I hike to begin with. It wasn't really on purpose, but now it's intentional.

01:31:09.23
Bill
Um, I just want to be able to, to hear and feel and see, um, just experience everything around me.

01:31:09.55
Tony
or

01:31:16.28
Bill
And it's, again, you get these, I take a lot of pictures because I post them on Instagram and whatever, but they're, they're as much for, you know, everyone else to see maybe, you know, as they are for me to look at it at some point, you know, going back and it just, I love it. I absolutely love it.

01:31:32.70
Tony
like i there There's just an undeniable power in being with nature.

01:31:40.39
Bill
Oh God. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

01:31:42.03
Tony
Just go to a waterfall and just sit and I can watch it for hours.

01:31:44.90
Bill
yeah Yeah, yeah, no, no doubt. No doubt. Yeah, that's I've been in a few places to chase these chase these f freaking waterfalls. And um when I was in Kentucky, I did that. I can't remember the places that that's I think that's where I went to.

01:32:00.16
Bill
Yeah, Kentucky was at Tallulah Gorge. I think that's where I went to the Tallulah Gorge. And hit some waterfalls in that area. And just, again, mind blowing, you know, i mean, it's just a waterfall. If you get the right one, it's so the power in a waterfall and I'm not talking, I mean, yeah, Niagara falls is Niagara falls, but even these medium waterfalls are these small ones.

01:32:17.93
Tony
Oh, yeah.

01:32:18.99
Bill
You just, I mean, you're like, man, that's, that's some power. You know, it's just, again, like you said, it's just mind blowing, but All right. So we got off on a little bit of a tangent there with a, with the hiking, but you know what, that's, that's what we do. So here's the funny part, everyone. When yeah Tony and I were going back and forth in a couple of emails and he said, so should we, is is there anything? And I think, didn't you put it like, is there, what, what do you guys have planned? Are we off the cuff? And I'm like, fuck man. Yeah, we're,

01:32:43.63
Bill
We're off the cuff. And we always, we always want to hear somebody's story. We, I knew we wanted to hear about the stoicism, but other than that, I mean, it just, I don't care. We talk about whatever it all comes back to, because even talking about hiking and all that stuff, um we get to do these things.

01:32:56.76
Bill
You get to do this thing tomorrow because you're sober. I get to do these trips because I'm sober.

01:32:59.86
Tony
Yep.

01:33:01.37
Bill
And, you ah hopefully that's not lost on anybody when we're talking about, you know, some of these things and we're always off, always off on a tangent about something, but, you To get back to basics here just for a minute, and I just want to um to see, is there is there anything that we missed? I mean, I know we only hit kind of the the tip of the iceberg on on everything that you do, which um obviously the the website again is stoicsobriety.com.

01:33:25.35
Bill
um Your Instagram, I'll have in the description also if people want to follow you on Instagram or hit hit all those things. But anything else you want to leave people with or or um any other, I guess, quotes that maybe some so good grabbing quotes that you want to leave people with?

01:33:39.79
Tony
Yeah, I think, yeah you know, I think I'll leave you with with one last quote that I think is is a critical mindset to have as we go through life and as we go through sobriety. It's it's another one from Epictetus, my favorite. And he says, he who laughs at himself never runs out of things to laugh at.

01:34:07.55
Tony
Right, so just just don't take ourselves so damn seriously.

01:34:07.75
Bill
well

01:34:11.46
Bill
Yeah. Rule 62. We talk about that every once in a while. Mike mike has that has that he he has his podcast set up right at his in his bedroom on ah a desk in this little cove.

01:34:14.68
Tony
Exactly.

01:34:22.99
Bill
And he's got it right in front of him. Don't take your yourself suit too damn seriously.

01:34:25.04
Tony
Absolutely.

01:34:27.31
Bill
but All right, Tony. And first of all, um I know Mike, hopefully he'll, Mike never listens to our episodes when, when obviously when we do them, he's like, I heard what I said.

01:34:38.13
Bill
i always listen back because it's, ah i tend to miss something because my, um I'm a, I'm too Too much of an in the moment type of person.

01:34:40.43
Tony
right. right.

01:34:44.92
Bill
So even if it's just he and I talking, I listen back because sometimes I feel like I've missed something that we talked about that that actually I do want to remember.

01:34:45.38
Tony
ah right

01:34:52.83
Bill
But also sometimes I just listen. I'm like, I for I forgot to ask Tony this or this is one subject that we were going to talk about. Cause it, you know, either, either open something up for a future question, or maybe, um, I don't know I think Mike would enjoy, uh, we might have to have you on again to talk maybe deeply about stoicism or anything.

01:35:08.55
Bill
I mean, I, I don't know.

01:35:09.54
Tony
I would love it.

01:35:09.86
Bill
I feel like we get to talk for another hour. So it's, uh, this has been, it's been, it's been enjoyable.

01:35:12.96
Tony
Easily.

01:35:15.41
Bill
And, ah so, I mean, number one, thank you for taking the time out of your night and thank you for sharing all this with, with everyone. I mean, I, I truly appreciate it. really do.

01:35:23.94
Tony
Yeah, thanks for having me on. it it was ah i had a great time.

01:35:27.25
Bill
Cool. All right. So everyone that is used to Mike usually has a way of kind of leading everyone out. I'll say it the same thing as I said the last time the mic wasn't here. Stick around for a minute. You'll hear our pre-recorded little thing with Mike's message on there. So fucking deal with it. But Tony, thank you very, very much. And everyone else, I appreciate you putting up with Tony and I tonight. Thanks again.

01:35:49.54
Bill
Bye.